Plenary, 12 Sep 2002

Meeting date: Thursday, September 12, 2002

Official Report 873KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

We come to First Minister's question time. All the questions are topical and I hope to reach question 6 today.

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he last met the Prime Minister and what issues were discussed. (S1F-2069)

I met the Prime Minister in Johannesburg last week and I spoke to him again earlier this week. We discussed a range of issues of importance both to Scotland and to the rest of the United Kingdom.

I thank the First Minister for his answer. This morning, the Minister for Finance and Public Services said:

"the money that we spend is the people's money—money raised from business and hard-working families."

Since Labour came to office, an extra £1.5 billion of the people's money has been spent on health. We welcome that, but, as a result of spending all that extra money from the people, how many more in-patients have been treated by the national health service in Scotland?

I welcome Mr Swinney's recognition of the success of the United Kingdom economy and the money that has been provided to Scotland as a result. Perhaps that indicates another change of SNP policy this week. Such a change is welcome and long overdue.

We have been over this territory quite a few times in the chamber. As Mr Swinney knows, the dramatic increase in the number of treatments and operations that are carried out particularly in nurse-led clinics across Scotland is the factor that is changing the health service. People who are now being treated in clinics would previously have been treated as in-patients.

Mr Swinney knows about the increase in the level of services and treatments. The figures are a demonstration of the change in the health service that is making a real difference to people's lives. The change has been financed by the Labour Government and implemented by the Labour-Liberal Democrat partnership, but it has been delivered by doctors and nurses across Scotland.

The only thing that was missing from the First Minister's courteous answer was a figure. The number of in-patients who have been treated has fallen by 46,000, despite the investment of £1.5 billion. I listened carefully to what the First Minister said about the change in the way in which people are treated. Just to give him the chance to complete the picture, I ask him how many more out-patients have been treated in the same period.

I know that there are occasionally problems with arithmetic and that Mr Swinney's shadow health minister said in the Evening Times on 13 August that arithmetic was never one of her strengths. However, I point out again the substantial increase in non in-patient activity in acute NHS trusts. Six and a half million patient appointments are carried out in clinics across Scotland—mainly in doctor-led clinics but also in nurse-led clinics. That figure is not falling; it has been increasing substantially. As I have said to Mr Swinney before in the chamber, it is better for people to be treated in their local community, in the clinic that matters to them, by a nurse rather than by a doctor if that is possible and better for them and their condition. I stand by that position. If that means that, ultimately, people are not being treated as in-patients or out-patients but are being treated more quickly, more locally and more effectively in those clinics, that is the right thing to do. That is the best investment for the national health service.

There was no figure in that answer either. It is coincidental that the number of out-patients has fallen by 46,000 in the same period. For the benefit of the First Minister, I can tell him that £1.5 billion has been spent, but the national health service has treated 100,000 fewer people. Given that he has managed to spend all that money, how does he expect the people to believe the fantasy that was announced by the Minister for Finance and Public Services this morning? Is it not the case that all the Executive can deliver is spin and double counting? The Executive is not delivering for the people of Scotland.

If I had been sitting on the Opposition benches today, even I might have found something in Andy Kerr's statement that I could have opposed or criticised. If that is the best that Mr Swinney can do, we must have had a successful announcement of the budget for Scotland.

This is an appropriate moment to remind Mr Swinney about the differences that he wants to end between the health service in Scotland and the health service in England. There are proportionately twice the number of beds in the health service in Scotland than there are in England. In Scotland, the number of people per 100,000 head of population who are on in-patient or day-case waiting lists is just over 1,500—in England, the figure is more than 2,000. In Scotland, the number of nurses, consultants and health professionals is higher. All such figures are higher in Scotland.

We know that the choice in the Parliament and the choice next May in the elections to the Scottish Parliament will be between the investment in the health service in Scotland made by the Labour-Liberal Democrat partnership and the Scottish National Party's plans to take Scotland out of the United Kingdom, lose the additional investment and throw the Scottish health service to the wolves.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S1F-2065)

As Mr McLetchie would expect, the Cabinet will discuss matters of importance to the people of Scotland. Next week's meeting will include a strategic discussion on the importance of tourism, culture and sport to the well-being of Scotland.

I hope that one of the other matters of importance to the people of Scotland that the Cabinet will discuss is the future of the Executive's flagship Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill. Will the First Minister tell me whether it is still the Scottish Executive's policy to introduce a new law to ban the smacking of children and whether it is still the Executive's policy to remove certain 16 and 17-year-old offenders in certain areas from the adult court system and send them to the children's panel system?

Yes. We await with interest the report of the Justice 2 Committee—I believe that it will be published tomorrow—which will allow us to see the views of the parliamentary committee that has been studying those matters.

I am disappointed to hear that the Executive is endorsing those policies. However, the First Minister then says that it is considering all the views. Which is it? Does the Executive support its own policies or is it in the business of changing its policies?

If the Executive is determined to proceed with the pilots, will the First Minister consider as part of the review the establishment of a pilot scheme of youth courts for 13, 14 and 15-year-old offenders, so that we can compare such courts' effectiveness in reducing youth crime with the current children's panel system?

In all such matters it is important to work steadily towards the right conclusions and to test the possible solutions as we go along. It is right and proper that we use pilot projects to test the various suggestions that have been made for tackling youth crime above and below the age of 16.

It is also important that we listen to parliamentary committees. We will do that for as long as I am the First Minister. I am not prepared to be in a situation where the Executive makes a decision and does not review it following a relevant report of a parliamentary committee. That is what the Parliament was set up for and I am determined to act in that way.

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Knife Crime

To ask the First Minister what measures the Scottish Executive is taking to clamp down on the carrying of knives in public places. (S1F-2066)

Better criminal intelligence and information systems and high-visibility campaigns by police forces have all contributed to the increase in the number of people who are convicted of carrying a knife. In addition, today's budget announced by the Minister for Finance and Public Services confirms resources for a record number of police officers, more closed-circuit television and other crime prevention initiatives.

The First Minister outlines several measures that have been taken and the results that have been achieved and he sets out future investment. Notwithstanding all that, does he agree that, given the appalling knife attacks in Glasgow last weekend, which left two men dead and five in hospital, and the worrying rise in convictions for carrying a knife, something more fundamental must happen? Does he agree with Graeme Pearson of the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland that a cultural change is required so that we make it as unacceptable to carry a knife as it is to drink and drive? What can the Government do to effect such a cultural change?

The Parliament and the politicians elected to serve the people of Scotland must make the right decisions. We must create the right laws, which are as tough as possible, to allow the police to do their duty and the courts to carry through convictions. We must resource the police and other services appropriately to ensure that they continue to achieve the level of convictions that they have been achieving. We must also provide a lead in Scotland. The Parliament must say loud and clear that gone are the days when the sign of manhood in Scotland was to turn to physical violence or to knives on a Saturday night. That is a lead that the Scottish Parliament can take—I hope that all members will join me in that.

I am sure that, like me, the First Minister will appreciate that the problem is not confined to Glasgow. In parts of Lanarkshire recently, we have witnessed young people at school carrying knives. Will the First Minister look into the problem of rogue retailers who sell knives to children? Will he review whether the law that deals with such traders is strong enough or whether additional measures are required?

If we had to review the law, it would be important to consider that. However, the immediate priority is to ensure that the law is implemented properly. A number of laws are in place to deal not only with the carrying of knives, but their sale, manufacture and importation. Those laws date back to 1988. Other laws dealing with the retailing and marketing of knives date back to 1997. Four acts of Parliament have been passed in the past decade alone to tackle the issue. The job of the police force and other authorities is to implement those laws properly to ensure that we get knives off our streets.

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Firefighters and Fire Service Personnel (National Strike)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive has begun to put in place contingency plans to protect the public should there be a national strike by firefighters and fire service personnel. (S1F-2067)

Public safety is paramount and, at all times, we have contingency plans in place for a range of possible scenarios, including industrial action in the fire service.

Is the First Minister aware that the Fire Brigades Union national conference has been recalled today and that it is likely to recommend a ballot for strike action to commence by the end of October? Has he given serious thought to the training that should be given to service personnel, given that the reality is that our firefighters spend most of their time removing people from road traffic accidents? Will the training of service personnel be extended to cover the circumstances of a radiological, chemical or biological accident? I am thinking of the fact that, over the past number of months, we have had serious problems with the nuclear reactors at Chapel Cross and Torness.

Clearly, we would not put people on the streets to deal with such dangerous work unless they had the appropriate training. Those matters are being considered as part of the scenarios that we need to work through. An important announcement was made last week that there would be an independent review of the pay and conditions of firefighters.

I believe that people should, as far as the public purse allows, be properly rewarded for the work that they carry out. I also believe that there is no mood among the population of Scotland for strike action by our firefighters. I hope that the firefighters will choose the course of further negotiations and discussions today. In particular, I hope that they will choose to participate in the independent review rather than go to a strike, as that would pre-empt the situation and cause concern across the population of Scotland.

If the public purse can afford £48,000 for MSPs and £55,000 for members of the Westminster Parliament, does the First Minister agree that the public purse can afford £30,000 for firefighters?

I think that I have made my position clear that the independent review, which was established by the Deputy Prime Minister last week, is the right course of action. The pay and conditions of firefighters are desperately in need of review. I hope that the independent review will benefit from the advice of the Fire Brigades Union as much as it will from Government and local government.

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Inverness (Flood Damage)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive will give consideration to a request from the Highland Council for additional funding to help repair the recent flood damage in Inverness. (S1F-2070)

First, I express my sympathy with all those who have suffered damage to property as a result of the recent floods. We are in contact with the council and, if requested for help, we will assess any case for support from the Bellwin scheme on its merits and respond as quickly as possible.

I hope that any application that is made by the Highland Council will be dealt with as quickly as possible, whether it is done under the Bellwin scheme or otherwise. Will the First Minister consider setting up a task force that would involve the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, Scottish Water and the local authorities to identify areas that are most vulnerable to flash flooding so that the extent of capital expenditure can be assessed and projects prioritised?

The issue of flash floods is giving rise to serious concern not just in Inverness but elsewhere in Scotland. It does not matter whether the primary responsibility for the situation now is climate change or poor drainage systems, or whether investment years ago might have made a difference. Investment is now urgently needed and what matters is that we take that action. Although I would not want us to commit ourselves to establishing a task force, I can say that, in light of recent developments, the minister responsible is having—and will continue to have—regular discussions with local authorities, Scottish Water and other bodies about the matter. If action is required or other bodies are needed to examine the situation, the minister will consider those options.

I am pleased that the First Minister has acknowledged the devastation caused to families and the damage to property and transport. He has given his personal support to the Inverness Highland bid to become the European capital of culture in 2008. Does he agree that Inverness does not wish to win the bid by literally becoming the Venice of the north? If so, will he place a far more serious emphasis on flood prevention in Inverness and other cities and towns in Scotland?

I treat very seriously the European capital of culture bid and the need for improvements in public services in Inverness and in links to and from the city. I hope that the bid is successful; we have done everything that we can to support it.

Whether they happen in Inverness or anywhere else in Scotland, flash floods are a disaster for the affected families. We must ensure that we take long-overdue action to invest in drainage systems to secure as far as is possible a future without flash floods. However, I suspect that the difficulties are partly caused by climate change.

I echo John Farquhar Munro's plea for the First Minister to look favourably at any funding request from Highland Council. The First Minister will be aware that flooding is becoming an increasing problem in the area. As well as the recent problems, railway services from Inverness have been disrupted over the past few months because of flooding. Will he ensure that legislation contains sufficient provision to deal with those problems in an holistic manner?

As I understand it, the Minister for Environment and Rural Development, Ross Finnie, is examining the Flood Prevention (Scotland) Act 1961 as part of our wider assessment of flood management systems in Scotland. If legislation needs to be improved, we will consider doing so when legislative time becomes available. However, although Ross Finnie will continue to look at legislation, the immediate and top priority is to secure the changes, improvements and investment in drainage systems in order to make a difference over the coming years.

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Torness Power Station

To ask the First Minister what representations the Scottish Executive will make to Her Majesty's Government regarding the economic and environmental implications of the current operational situation at Torness power station. (S1F-2062)

Although the current shutdown at Torness power station is a commercial matter for British Energy, we regularly discuss the issue and other matters with the British Government. All the appropriate safety and environmental regulatory bodies were involved in the decision about Torness and at the moment they are fully satisfied that all the necessary precautions have been taken.

Does the First Minister agree that the safety issues raised by a possible serious design fault at the Torness plant and the apparent economic non-viability of British Energy mean that any future development of nuclear power has no future in Scotland? Is he willing, on the ground of national safety, to pursue the matter with the nuclear installations inspectorate and through Her Majesty's Government, if necessary, and to seek a full and transparent investigation into the nature of the fault at Torness and the safety implications of its repair?

As political representatives, we cannot pick and choose which inspectorates in Scotland or throughout the UK we are or are not prepared to take advice from. We have independent inspectorates, which should be able to provide reports and advice that we can follow. If that goes for the prison service, it should go for the nuclear industry as well.

The current situation of British Energy—not just the situation at Torness—is serious. Safety is paramount. As to the future of British Energy, I hope that the decisions that are taken commercially and by the Government over the next few weeks—in Scotland as elsewhere—take account not only of safety, but of the large number of British Energy jobs in Scotland. Everyone in the Parliament who is serious about taking an holistic approach to the policy decisions that we have to make will want the British Government to take on board the importance of British Energy to the electricity grid as well as other factors.

Will the First Minister pay tribute to the work force at Torness, which is undertaking the safety checks on the gas circulation pumps? Will he welcome the excellent progress towards getting both reactors back on load—with the consent of the independent nuclear installations inspectorate—before Christmas, generating electricity without emitting greenhouse gases?

Those who work at Torness deserve praise as workers do elsewhere. The progress that is being made is admirable and I hope that it reaches a good conclusion in the months ahead. As Mr Home Robertson knows, we need to have a balanced energy policy in Scotland. There is a place for various forms of electricity generation in Scotland and I am convinced that the policies that the Executive pursues will create that balanced energy generation policy.