Official Report 879KB pdf
The next item of business is an urgent question. To get as many members in as possible, I would prefer short and succinct questions, as always, and answers to match.
Historic Environment Scotland (Board Meeting)
To ask the Scottish Government whether the culture secretary will correct the record regarding reports that he told a parliamentary committee that he had not been invited to attend a board meeting of Historic Environment Scotland, despite evidence to the contrary.
I was not aware of any such invitation when I attended the committee last week. Senior officials have now confirmed that they had not advised me of the request from the former chair, as they were seeking to address a number of sensitive matters at Historic Environment Scotland prior to providing me with advice.
Perhaps the most pressing sensitivity was that the on-going investigations at Historic Environment Scotland included one into the conduct of the former chair, Dr Hugh Hall. Subsequent to his request, Dr Hall then indicated his resignation to the Scottish Government, some months prior to the end of his term. That brought the investigation into his conduct to an end and, as a result, his request to meet the board was superseded.
That is, frankly, nonsense. The cabinet secretary was invited to meet the board of Historic Environment Scotland. Let us stick with the facts—that is what he was asked to do. The fact that he did not know that he had been invited is a separate matter that I will come on to. However, let us be clear about one thing: the ministerial code requires that ministers
“give accurate and truthful information to the Parliament”
and correct any errors at the earliest opportunity.
Does the cabinet secretary accept that he failed in that duty when he misrepresented the facts to the committee last week? Why did it take a set of courageous whistleblowers and a front-page newspaper story for him to act? Will he now apologise for the serious disservice that he did to the chair and board of Historic Environment Scotland and for undermining confidence in ministerial accountability?
I have discussed the matter with officials today. When I questioned why they did not notify me of the invitation sooner, the reason that they outlined was that it was to protect the independence of the investigation, and I understand that.
In the interests of completeness, I point out that officials have today advised me that Dr Hall requested meetings with the board on 24 July in a meeting and by email on 12 and 29 August. At that time, officials advised Dr Hall that, irrespective of a meeting, I was fully engaged with matters at Historic Environment Scotland. Work has since moved on to supporting the efforts of the new chair, Sir Mark Jones, to resolve the well-documented issues at Historic Environment Scotland and appointing the two new interim board members to support Sir Mark, those being Ray Macfarlane and Susan Deighan.
This episode has revealed a cabinet secretary who is completely out of touch with events inside his own office and in one of the most troubled public bodies in Scotland, for which he has a responsibility. Does Angus Robertson not see that, by throwing a senior civil servant under the bus to protect himself, he has done lasting damage to his reputation? Will he accept that shifting blame on to officials is no substitute for competence, and that Parliament and the public deserve a minister who is on top of his brief, not one who seems incapable of managing it?
I take very seriously the issues that have been reported at Historic Environment Scotland. I am very clear that, on the whole, HES is an excellent organisation, with hard-working staff who look after one of this country’s most valuable assets—its historic environment.
Scottish Government officials have been working closely with the HES board and leadership team to improve the organisation’s leadership and governance. As a result of that, together with the appointment of Sir Mark Jones, Ray Macfarlane and Susan Deighan, along with a new chief operating officer, I am confident that HES will soon leave these issues behind it and go from strength to strength.
I advise members that I have received a number of requests to ask a supplementary question. I will try to get through all the requests.
The serious issues at the top of Historic Environment Scotland are not of Angus Robertson’s making, but it is his responsibility as cabinet secretary to give accurate answers to the Parliament and to fix this mess. Historic Environment Scotland and the cabinet secretary appear to be all over the place, but the one place where Angus Robertson has not been is the HES boardroom. This shambles cannot go on. The cabinet secretary should not be waiting for an invitation to meet the HES board. When exactly will Angus Robertson do his job and meet the HES board?
The answer to Neil Bibby’s question is quite simple. I have made it absolutely clear to Sir Mark Jones that I am happy to meet the board, under his chairmanship, whenever he feels the time is right.
I hope that Mr Bibby agrees that it is right for us to support the incoming chair of the board and his leadership of Historic Environment Scotland. [Interruption.]
Members!
The chair has to get to grips with a lot of issues at the arm’s-length body, and I assure Mr Bibby that I have told Sir Mark Jones that he has my total support. I have appointed two new interim board members to strengthen the team around him, there should be a new chief operating officer at Historic Environment Scotland, and I have given him the assurance that I will give him any support that he needs. That is the Scottish Government’s position, and I hope that Neil Bibby supports that, too.
I simply do not believe what the cabinet secretary has told the Parliament. However, if we are to believe his argument that he did not know anything about the requests, what action is he taking to investigate civil servants who have withheld information from a cabinet secretary? Does he believe that the reason why such requests have been withheld from him relates to the concerns—which we have heard from members of his party and of his Government—that he is a lazy minister who is not across the detail of his brief?
I make it clear that I asked officials why they did not share the information with me. Although I understand their reasoning, I have been clear that, going forward, I am to be kept informed of any such requests in a timely fashion.
In answer to the question that has been posed to me, the level of engagement between the Scottish Government and Historic Environment Scotland in relation to its problems of governance—
What about you?
Its problems of governance, as an arm’s-length organisation, are extremely serious. We are very closely involved in supporting Historic Environment Scotland, under the new chairmanship of its board, to ensure that it emerges from the challenges of its own making and is able to perform the functions that, I hope, all of us across the chamber believe are its core business.
I take this opportunity to remind all members that we have to listen to the member who has the floor and that we do not need running commentaries or heckling from sedentary positions.
The quality of the protection and care of Scotland’s heritage and history is at the heart of this matter, and it is essential that Historic Environment Scotland has the trust and confidence of the public in that regard. Will the cabinet secretary say more about how the Scottish Government is working alongside the new chair to ensure that trust is restored as swiftly as possible?
Paul McLennan has asked a very important question, which relates to issues that I have already narrated to Neil Bibby. We need to ensure that Historic Environment Scotland, under new leadership, has the resources at its disposal to deal with the issues relating to its leadership that have come to public attention. That is why my officials and I have been very supportive in ensuring that Historic Environment Scotland has the capacity to deal with the challenges that it is trying to deal with. That has involved the appointment of a new chairman of the board, which I have undertaken, the appointment of two new interim board members, which I have undertaken, and the provision of support relating to the appointment of a chief operating officer for Historic Environment Scotland.
Those are the appropriate Government interventions to ensure that Historic Environment Scotland is able to deal with the problems that exist in the organisation and to move on and focus on the key role that it performs in our country.
The cabinet secretary was quite definite in his response to me and Stephen Kerr in committee that he has neither attended nor been invited to attend any HES board meeting, despite his predecessor, Fiona Hyslop, doing so and despite knowing that the organisation has been in crisis. However, we now know that Angus Robertson’s claims are not true. There was at least one invitation to attend a board meeting.
Stephen Kerr has written to urge the First Minister to refer Angus Robertson to the First Minister’s independent adviser on the ministerial code. Has Mr Robertson spoken with or been in communication with the First Minister about that letter from Mr Kerr, or about the potential of the incident being investigated by the First Minister’s independent adviser on the ministerial code as a breach of that code? Will Angus Robertson refer himself and save the First Minister from having to make that decision?
I have already answered the substantive point that the member raises in my first answer to Stephen Kerr. I was not aware of the invitations to the board, and the record will show that to be the case.
It is up to other people if they wish to launch, take part in or call for investigations. I know that it is the job of Opposition parties to do that. [Interruption.]
Mr Lumsden.
I need to make sure that the new leadership of Historic Environment Scotland has the resources at its disposal to get itself through the difficult process that it needs to get through as an arm’s-length body, and that is what I undertake to do as cabinet secretary.
What does the cabinet secretary think his negligence says to the communities in Dirleton and Melrose, where HES properties are still surrounded by Heras fencing? Is it not the case that if the minister spent more time on his day job and less time adding to his air miles, he might finally be able to fix those problems?
I think that Mr Hoy is aware—I hope he is—that the operational management of Historic Environment Scotland is for Historic Environment Scotland. I share with him the wish that our historic sites are able to be open, and that is why the Government has provided Historic Environment Scotland with the funds. It is only a shame that Mr Hoy voted against that in the budget.
That concludes the urgent question.