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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, November 11, 2010


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


First Minister (Engagements)



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2682)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

At 11 o’clock this morning, I joined members from across the chamber in observing two minutes’ silence in remembrance of the servicemen and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice. On Sunday, I will formally mark armistice day by attending the remembrance Sunday commemorative event in Edinburgh. I know that MSPs will attend their constituency events throughout the country.

Iain Gray

The First Minister’s Scottish Futures Trust was supposed to raise patriotic bonds for patriotic bridges, patriotic schools and patriotic hospitals, but it has raised no money and built no bridges, schools or hospitals. It was also supposed to end the need to buy in expensive consultants. How is that going?

The First Minister

As Iain Gray well knows, the Scottish Futures Trust is involved in billions of pounds of capital investment projects throughout the country. The returns and the savings that it has made have been appropriately audited and they amount to hundreds of millions of pounds.

The problem with Iain Gray’s approach is that the Labour Party was content to use the private finance initiative, which is a totally discredited and hugely expensive means of raising capital. In the years when the Scottish budget increased substantially, that could be afforded—money could be given over to PFI financiers. We are no longer in that position. We must get value for money from capital projects and that is exactly what the Scottish Futures Trust is doing.

Iain Gray

If the Scottish Futures Trust is so efficient and so cheap, why did it spend £872,000 on consultants last year? It has 26 staff and a chief executive who earns £200,000 a year, but it spends £2,000 a day on consultants and it has yet to build a single school.

However, I must admit that the Scottish Futures Trust looks like a model of fiscal rectitude in comparison with Skills Development Scotland. Regular viewers will know that Skills Development Scotland likes to spend money on stage hypnotists and rebranding. Will the First Minister hazard a guess at how much that organisation has spent on external consultancy fees?

The First Minister

Let us deal with the reality of the Scottish Futures Trust, which is supporting projects that are worth £7.3 billion. The SFT’s efficiency savings have been externally audited. The audit shows that, in 2009-10, £35 of benefit and savings was achieved for every £1 that was spent on the SFT.

It would be incredible if the Labour Party continued to make its absurd suggestion that an organisation that will be essential for delivering capital programmes throughout Scotland should be abolished. If the Labour Party did so, it would inhibit the delivery of schools for the future, the hub initiative, the national housing trust, tax increment financing and the Borders railway. Regular viewers around Scotland might know what projects are at risk from the Labour Party’s absurd proposition that the Scottish Futures Trust should be abolished.

In terms of Skills Development Scotland—

Members: Hooray!

Order.

I remind Iain Gray that the organisation that he derides week after week in the chamber has delivered 20,000 modern apprenticeships across Scotland, which is one third more than the Labour Party ever achieved in its term of office.

Here is a tip for the First Minister: he must get the answer to question 1 after that question and not find it after question 2 but give it anyway.

Of course—[Interruption.]

Order.

Of course I welcome—[Interruption.]

Read the Official Report.

Mr Swinney.

Of course I welcome 20,000 apprenticeships.

Members: Hooray!

Iain Gray

We argued for putting the money for them into the budget. The point is that Skills Development Scotland also spent £2.3 million on consultants last year, so we could have had another 1,500 apprenticeships instead of an army of consultants. This is the organisation that is meant to be creating opportunity for our young people and ensuring that we have the skills that we need to get the economy growing. It is no wonder that our recovery is slow.

It is just as well that we have Scottish Enterprise. Just for the record, can the First Minister tell us how much it spent on consultants last year?

The First Minister

If Iain Gray did not want to know about the Scottish Futures Trust, he should not have asked me a question about it. If he did not want to hear another answer on Skills Development Scotland, he should not have asked me about it in question 3.

Iain Gray says that he welcomes the delivery of 20,000 apprenticeships, which is one third more than the Labour Party ever delivered. If he welcomes it so much, why did he vote against the budget that proposed it?

As far as his point about the recovery in Scotland being slow is concerned, in the second quarter of this year the Scottish economy grew by 1.3 per cent, which is the highest rate for five years—

Tell that to the unemployed.

Mr McNeil.

The First Minister

That is higher than the rate of growth in the rest of the United Kingdom and is second in the G8 only to that of the Federal Republic of Germany, so it is a highly satisfactory figure. The challenge for Scotland and for us all is whether we can sustain that level of recovery in the face of the greatest public spending cutbacks in London for more than a generation.

Before we think that it was all the fault of the Tory-Liberal coalition, let us remember Ed Miliband’s admission and the documentation that established that the Labour Party was planning cuts that would have been deeper and harsher than those of Margaret Thatcher.

Iain Gray

This time, he gave the answer to a question that I did not ask at all. The question was: how much is Scottish Enterprise spending on consultants? He does not know. I will tell him. Last year, it spent £21 million on consultants.

The First Minister has cut 3,500 teachers’ jobs and 4,000 national health service jobs, and 40,000 construction jobs have gone as well. Unemployment in Scotland has overtaken unemployment in the rest of the country, but his economic agencies are spending £500,000 a week on consultants. Is he really saying that he is happy with that? Is the First Minister driving this gravy train or is he just a passenger?

The First Minister

If Iain Gray wants answers to questions that he should have asked, he should have asked them, instead of rambling across the range of economic statistics.

Iain Gray cites figures for construction employment. Let us deal with the reality of construction employment in Scotland in the second quarter of this year. The number of construction jobs in Scotland was 130,900. That was an increase of 9 per cent year on year, compared with a fall across the UK of 5.6 per cent. What might that surge in construction employment be down to? We know from the analysis that it was the capital acceleration that was led by this Government and planned by the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth that led to that highly impressive recovery in construction employment in Scotland.

Once upon a time, instead of deriding Skills Development Scotland, an organisation that has been successful in delivering apprenticeships, and Scottish Enterprise, an organisation that is winning bid after bid, contract after contract and inward investment after inward investment, Iain Gray could have shared the credit for that capital acceleration. The trouble is, when it came to the crunch, he led his troops to push their buttons and vote against the budget that secured that impressive performance in construction employment, so the next time he wants to tell us that he is really concerned about apprenticeships or construction employment, he should explain why he does not back the policies that secured that capital, that construction and those jobs.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-2683)

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future.

The First Minister is a passionate advocate of independence and autonomy for the governance of Scotland. Why is he such an entrenched opponent of independence and autonomy for the governance of schools?

The First Minister

As Annabel Goldie knows, we are plotting a new future for the schools of Scotland. We have welcomed innovative ideas, for example in East Lothian. I understand that a full report on the initiative, after consultation, will be presented in December. Many other initiatives are under way around Scotland. East Lothian Council is involved in talks with Midlothian Council about joint delivery of education in the two authorities. Talks between other local authorities are taking place in parallel to that.

The Government is open to new ideas about how to deliver education. However, I have never quite understood the Conservative party’s attachment to what has been described as the Swedish model of education, as the comparative performance of Sweden and Scotland over the past few years is roughly similar. Mr Russell has indicated that he is more attracted to the Finnish model, on the basis that if we are seeking an international comparison we should look to the model that is most impressive, rather than to one that might be considered somewhat mediocre.

Annabel Goldie

I realise that I am no competition for Finnish models.

This week, a highly respected educationist, Keir Bloomer, said:

“progress is made in the modern world by releasing the creative energies of people, in this case the teacher, and the system that we have at the present moment constrains them far too much by direction from the top.”

He joins the ever-growing number of voices supporting the devolution of powers to our schools. Even the First Minister’s colleague Mike Russell has refused to rule that out. Despite the First Minister’s warm words, it is clear that he is the roadblock to reform: feet stuck in the mud, head buried in the sand, Mike Russell on a leash—[Laughter.]

Order.

Perhaps that should be Jack Russell.

Does the First Minister have any proposals for genuine reform to put Scotland’s headteachers back in control of Scotland’s schools?

The First Minister

I congratulate Annabel Goldie on embracing the obvious model analogy into which I was gallantly and chivalrously trying not to lead her.

If the member does not believe that the curriculum for excellence that is being rolled out across the secondary sector in Scotland is a major, challenging reform of Scottish education that offers great potential for the future, she underrates the significance of the most substantial change in Scottish education for many generations. We are interested in seeing greater autonomy in decision making for schools. That is why Mr Russell has complimented East Lothian so warmly on its initiative.

I do not want to get into canine analogies, but to describe Mr Russell in the terms that Annabel Goldie suggested is to underestimate his abilities. I would rather have a Scottish terrier such as Mr Russell than the lapdogs on the Tory benches.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-2684)

I have no plans to do so in the near future.

NHS Education for Scotland is a quango that is responsible for training doctors and nurses in Scotland. Was it really a good idea for eight people to be sent to a conference in Miami in May?

The First Minister

NHS Education for Scotland does an important job for education and training across the health service in Scotland. There are aspects of NES’s recent activities that the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing has recently spoken about, but I do not think that Tavish Scott should deflect from the crucial and important job that it does for training and education across Scotland’s national health service.

Tavish Scott

I do not think that I did. The issue is what NES has been up to in this case. Six of the eight Scottish delegates to the conference in Miami were paid for by that NHS quango, but the other two were paid for directly by the Scottish Government at St Andrew’s house. These are difficult financial times, and everyone else in Scotland knows that every penny has to be watched carefully, yet NES does not even know how much it costs to send all those people abroad, and it reacts to criticism by wanting to recruit more spin doctors to explain it all away.

When will the Government get a grip on its responsibilities and tackle the foreign junkets, the spin machine and the obstruction of public accountability that we can see right before us?

The First Minister

As Tavish Scott well knows, and as I know he was about to inform the chamber, the course concerned was on professional competence in medicine. It was a medical-related training course. He, and his handyman next to him, Mr Rumbles, would not wish to give any other impression—including from the holiday brochure that they have there.

Tavish Scott should already know that the health secretary has written to NES, asking it to be mindful of the financial climate with regard to foreign travel. She has also written regarding the overall approach to remuneration for NES.

I have been looking closely at some developments, particularly at an article that appeared in the Scottish Review concerning the activities of NES with regard to remuneration for senior personnel and senior consultants. As I suspected, and as I must remind Tavish Scott, as I do on many occasions—[Interruption.] Tavish Scott asked about NHS Education for Scotland, and I am telling him about NES’s performance. The matter concerning remuneration in NES that has caused particular concern relates to contracts that were signed by the previous Labour-Liberal Government—contracts that have been frozen by the current Scottish National Party Government.

The problem for the Liberal Democrats on a whole range of questions these days is that they will be judged not just on their policies when they were in government in this Parliament, but on the policies that they are currently pursuing in government in the coalition in London.

That is the First Minister’s standard answer to anything that I ever say in the chamber. I asked about the First Minister’s performance and about his Government. The only thing that changes about Mr Salmond is the excuses, which get longer.

The First Minister

The performance of this Government has been to freeze consultant salaries, to freeze distinction awards and to freeze management fees. The performance of the Liberal-Labour Government was to allow increases in all three components of salary. If Mr Scott disnae like the answers to the question, he should not open up to examination the deplorable record of the Liberal Democrats in government in Scotland in the past—[Interruption.]

Order, Mr Scott.

And, of course, there is now the extraordinary record of the Liberal-Conservative coalition that is in government in London.

Jamie McGrigor (Highlands and Islands) (Con)

The First Minister will be aware of recent events affecting Campbeltown. What actions can he and his ministers take to minimise and prevent the possible unemployment triple whammy in Campbeltown, owing to the difficulties that are now faced by the Skykon wind tower company—which the First Minister opened—and to the collapse of Highlands and Islands Enterprise’s construction framework contractor Rok, which owes its subcontractors in Campbeltown, including McFadyens Contractors, hundreds of thousands of pounds? Its work on the new Skykon factory, which is vital for making Skykon more competitive, is 90 per cent complete but still needs to be finished. What will the First Minister do to prevent an unemployment meltdown in Campbeltown and to ensure continuity for Skykon, which is the only wind tower producer in Scotland?

The First Minister

The Skykon group has encountered financial problems, which, as Jamie McGrigor probably knows, are sourced not on the Campbeltown contract but across the range of activities in the group. The Scottish Government hosted a meeting of interested parties on Tuesday, in an attempt to be of assistance in assembling a rescue package, which of course depends on a number of agreements, particularly from Skykon financiers, and on the financial stability of the rest of the group. Contingency plans are also being prepared.

The member also asked about Rok’s move into administration. As members know, Rok is a United Kingdom-based construction facilities company, which employs some 3,800 people across the UK, about a fifth of them in Scotland. Some 69 redundancies out of some 750 staff in Scotland have been made, and there are some 260 redundancies across the UK.

In our contact with the administrator PricewaterhouseCoopers, we have been trying to prevent the knock-on effect down the construction and subcontracting chain. Our aim and intention is to minimise the economic damage and to mobilise the partnership action for continuing employment teams to help, where they can, with people who have been made redundant. That work will continue. During the next few days, the Minister for Enterprise, Energy and Tourism will meet two subcontractors who have been particularly affected by the decision.


Roads (Winter Weather Assistance)



4. To ask the First Minister what assistance the Scottish Government is giving to local authorities to ensure that roads are kept clear and safe in the eventuality of a repeat of last winter’s weather conditions. (S3F-2698)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Government continues to work with local authority partners to improve winter resilience across Scotland. A report commissioned by the Scottish ministers on the lessons learned from last winter was published in August and included 11 recommendations, which are being progressed jointly with local authority partners.

Recommendations include the monitoring of salt stock supplies throughout Scotland and the establishment of a strategic salt stock, which will provide more than 30,000 tonnes of extra salt that can be accessed in an emergency. Through that monitoring, we are confident that Scotland’s local authorities are well prepared to deal with anything that comes this winter.

Stuart McMillan

I am sure that the First Minister agrees that the conditions that we experienced last year were by no means new to Scotland and that the increase in admissions to accident and emergency units last winter was linked to the severe weather conditions.

Does he agree that the use of people on community service to assist local authorities in clearing our roads and streets last year was a positive measure? Will he give an assurance that the initiative will be rolled out to the west of Scotland and throughout the nation this winter, if that is required?

The First Minister

Yes, I will. That was one of a range of successful initiatives that were taken in response to the emergency conditions last winter. There was general acknowledgement in the Parliament, and rightly so, that our authorities’ response to the exceptional conditions was, on the whole, extremely good and extremely competent. It is to everyone’s credit that despite last year’s good performance, no one is resting on their laurels and people are considering the lessons that can be learned to improve performance if we are again hit by an exceptional winter.

The member can be assured that the use of community service people to clear snow in communities was one of a range of initiatives that were successful, gave the right message and will be pursued again if we face exceptional winter conditions.

Johann Lamont (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)

The First Minister will recall the concern that was expressed during last winter’s fearsomely bad weather about the lack of Scottish Government action to assist in the identification of vulnerable people, particularly older people, who were trapped in their homes without the support that they needed, because carers were unable to reach them, despite their best efforts. Will the First Minister agree to establish a Scotland-wide telephone helpline in preparation for a recurrence of the weather that we experienced last winter, so that there is no repeat of last year’s situation, when people had to access information via the web, despite the fact that disproportionately fewer older people have access to the internet, and when in some circumstances people phoned local numbers that were not staffed?

The First Minister

Local authority helplines are in existence to deal with that eventuality. The disagreement with Johann Lamont was that she thought that we could centralise such a function effectively; in our opinion, it was far better to apply the help that was required at local level. The response of our services was exceptional.

Despite what Johann Lamont said, it is not the case that the response of our emergency services, blue-light services and local authorities throughout Scotland to the experience of last winter left a great deal to be desired. The general consensus—with perhaps one notable exception—was that everyone performed exceptionally well, given the exceptional circumstances. Of course, the Government and local authorities will look at all positive suggestions for dealing with exceptional conditions again.

I say to Johann Lamont, as gently as possible, that if she is to encourage people to respond to national emergencies, the occasional word of positivity and encouragement from her might assist the genuinely collective effort that we all want to make to keep the people of Scotland safe from harm.


Forensic Services



5. To ask the First Minister when the Scottish Government expects to announce its decision regarding the future of forensic services. (S3F-2703)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

I am surprised that Lord Foulkes does not already know that, as the Cabinet Secretary for Justice clearly explained the position at the meeting with Lothian MSPs on 28 October. As, I suspect, he does know, an announcement will be made later this year.

George Foulkes

I am grateful to the First Minister, because that gives us some time. Is the First Minister aware that Grampian and Lothian police boards support option 2, to keep a full forensic service in Aberdeen and Edinburgh? Since I have noticed that the First Minister has a particular enthusiasm for all-party campaigns to keep services open, will he, as a Grampian MSP, join me and other Lothian and Grampian MSPs in our campaign to keep a full forensic service at Aberdeen and Edinburgh? If we do not do that, it will be a victory for the criminals whom those services have helped to put behind bars.

The First Minister

I have just been handed a note that explains why Lord George Foulkes did not know the answer to his question: it is because he stormed oot the meeting after five minutes and did not hear what the Cabinet Secretary for Justice said. In his newly found devotion to all-party consensus campaigns, if George Foulkes would hang aboot for mair than five minutes, perhaps the people of the Lothians would be better served by their MSP, or are we to conclude that the Scottish Parliament’s loss is the House of Lords’s gain?

Brian Adam (Aberdeen North) (SNP)

Is the First Minister aware that the Aberdeen staff have proposed an alternative to option 2, which I support? Can he confirm that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice is not restricted to choosing one of the four options on which the Scottish Police Services Authority consulted?

The First Minister

As the member knows, the SPSA board initiated a searching examination with customers across Scotland on a national service model for the whole of the forensic service, and the options paper presented the recommendations from the SPSA, and the cabinet secretary will announce his decision on the matter before the end of the year. He will take into account all the positive suggestions that have been made from a range of interests around the country, given the importance of the issue.


Consultants Distinction Awards

Nanette Milne (North East Scotland) (Con)



6. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government will take following the publication of figures showing that the payment of national health service consultants distinction awards has increased 19.5 per cent in the last four years to £27.9 million. (S3F-2687)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Government has taken, and will continue to take, action to curb excessive payments to higher paid public servants. We have already frozen the value of existing distinction awards at last year’s level for consultants in Scotland. We have also restricted new awards to those that become available from consultants who leave the awards scheme. That has released £2 million of savings in the current financial year.

As the member is well aware, the awards are United Kingdom-wide, and following the Deputy First Minister’s approach to the UK health ministers, proposing a fundamental review of the distinction awards scheme, the Department of Health announced on 20 August 2010 that the Doctors and Dentists Review Body will review the schemes. We will continue to press for the reform of distinction awards and will submit evidence to the review body that calls for a fairer reward system that is not limited to a small minority of the NHS workforce.

Nanette Milne

I thank the First Minister for his comprehensive answer, and I am pleased that he is giving evidence to the review, which should ensure that the award scheme will come into line with other public sector pay schemes and is affordable.

As the First Minister will know, the Scottish Conservatives are committed to protecting the health budget, but we also want more money to be diverted to front-line services. Does he agree that, in these difficult financial times, the 19.5 per cent rise in pay awards that we have seen over the past four years is difficult to justify?

The First Minister

I am sure that Nanette Milne does not mean to do this, but she does not give the full canvas of increases in the distinction awards year after year over the past 10 years. I have the figures before me now, and they show that there has been an increase in distinction awards every single year from 2000, 2001 and 2002 until the past two years, when they were frozen by the health secretary after, if I remember correctly, vigorous questioning from Dr Ian McKee.

I agree that the matters have to be dealt with, and they are being dealt with. The argument about it being a UK award scheme is nonetheless pertinent, and one of the restrictions on our ability to act is the competitive position of the Scottish health service in having rates of pay that are comparable to the English health service.

So it is somebody else’s problem.

The First Minister

I hear Johann Lamont muttering that it is somebody else’s problem. If we had had an exodus of consultants from the Scottish NHS to the English NHS, I suspect that Johann’s colleagues would have been the first to complain that we had not considered the consequences of our action. Far from waiting for a Labour Government that refused to take any action, or even waiting for a Liberal-Conservative Government that has now established the review that we called for, the health secretary has already taken action to freeze the awards for the first time since devolution, clearing up the mess that we inherited from the Labour-Liberal Administration.

We will have a very brief supplementary question from Jeremy Purvis.

Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)

In 2009, the Scottish Government put in place not a UK scheme but a new Scottish scheme that will come into force next year. The First Minister is right that there were no new awards in 2010, but the clinical awards for next year include a new round for 25 additional awards, totalling £1.25 million, scheduled for February 2011. Before it is too late, will the First Minister ensure that no new awards are issued next February?

The First Minister

As Jeremy Purvis should know, the budget is published next week, and I suspect that he should wait, like everyone else, to see the budget rather than make assumptions about what is in it.

I am happy to defend, and I have just defended, the action that has been taken by the health secretary to cap the awards for the first time. Jeremy Purvis can be absolutely certain that further action will be taken.

It is your scheme.

The First Minister

What we have had no explanation of is why, under the years of Labour-Liberal Administration in this chamber, the distinction awards scheme increased year after year, without any thought of any Liberal minister, including that stringent guarantor of the public purse Tavish Scott, of restricting the awards scheme.

I know that the Liberal Democrats do not like to be reminded of their record in government in this chamber—

Briefly please, First Minister.

The First Minister

And I know that nobody in the Liberal Democrat party wants to be reminded of their current record at Westminster, but just occasionally we in the other political parties are entitled to say that we do not need to look at the crystal ball of future Liberal policies—we can read the book of their track record in administration in Scotland.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Members: No!

Order. Members are quite entitled to raise points of order.

George Foulkes

Presiding Officer, it is a very serious point of order. Will you investigate the proceedings at the meeting to which the First Minister referred? I can tell you categorically, as can the other people who were present, that the reason why I left the meeting was that the Cabinet Secretary for Justice refused to give a date for publication—[Interruption.] Let me finish. He refused to publish the report, and he said that he had not even read it. It is categorically the case, as members from other parties who were present can prove, that the First Minister has misled the chamber.

The member has made his point, but it is not a point of order for me to consider.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I am sure that it is not the First Minister’s intention to mislead Parliament, so I wonder whether he will correct two factual errors that he has made. First, it is not the case that consultant salaries have been frozen, as he said earlier. Secondly, the rise in the salary of the medical director by £50,000 to a staggering £235,000 was under the ministerial direction of the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing. She sanctioned that increase.

It is the First Minister who is responsible for what he says.

12:35 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—