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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 08 Jun 2006

Meeting date: Thursday, June 8, 2006


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-2340)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

As ever, we will discuss issues of importance to Scotland.

I congratulate Newcraighall primary school in Edinburgh, which I visited this morning, on the occasion of its centenary. I am sure that we all extend our congratulations and wish the school all the very best.

I also wish to express my concern about Margo MacDonald, who is spending some time in hospital. She is a powerful member of the Parliament and I am sure that we all wish her very well. [Applause.]

Nicola Sturgeon:

I wish the school a very happy birthday and I wish Margo MacDonald a speedy recovery and return to the chamber.

We heard this week that some local authorities in Scotland are rationing free personal care because of a lack of resources. What action will the First Minister take to ensure that old people get the care to which they are legally entitled?

The First Minister:

I make it very clear that local authorities have an absolute duty to deliver that service properly. The local authorities in Scotland that deliver the service willingly by using their budgets properly are to be congratulated. Those local authorities that do not should step up to the mark and meet their obligations; if they do not, there are clear procedures that will be followed.

Nicola Sturgeon:

Is it not the case that half of all councils operated waiting lists last year and that several councils, including North Lanarkshire Council in the First Minister's area, are already doing so this year? The First Minister's answer suggests that he thinks that that is not acceptable and that there is no excuse for it.

I draw the First Minister's attention to a letter that I received from him just last week. It says:

"Local authorities have an obligation to deliver or secure services once an assessment has been made … but, before doing so, may consider the availability of resources. Operating a waiting list … may therefore be appropriate."

It is signed "Jack". Is it not the case that despite all the tough talk about going in to sort out errant councils, the First Minister condones waiting lists? Is that not a betrayal of the policy of free personal care?

The First Minister:

It took Ms Sturgeon two weeks to read the letter enough times to be able to take out of context a couple of sentences and misinterpret them. She has been slower than she normally is, although still predictable. As I am sure she will confirm, the letter also states clearly that even if local authorities are not in a position to make available the practical services that people might require immediately following an assessment of need, they have an absolute duty to secure appropriate services for people and to manage them until other resources are available.

It is of course right that any guidelines spell out clearly what should happen where there are practical difficulties at a local level, but it is essential that every local authority in Scotland assesses the need of the elderly people in its area and then ensures, first, that those needs are met as quickly as possible and, secondly, that where those services are meant to be delivered free, they are. Free personal care is one of the best policies that the Parliament has made and Scotland's councils should be delivering it.

Nicola Sturgeon:

Can I get this right? The First Minister has confirmed what he said in his letter, which is that he thinks that, where resources are not available, it is appropriate to operate waiting lists. That is rather different from what he said to me in his first answer.

Read out the whole letter.

Nicola Sturgeon:

I am happy for the whole letter to be read by anybody who wants to read it.

Is it not the case that the policy of free personal care for all who need it has turned into nothing more than a postcode lottery? Some councils have waiting lists; others do not. Some councils charge for food preparation; others do not. As the First Minister acknowledges in his letter, the reason for that is that there is an issue with resources and with how money is allocated to councils.

Instead of talking tough in public but giving the green light to waiting lists in reality, is it not time that the First Minister got it sorted and made sure that old people get the care that they need when they need it, as was so clearly intended by the Parliament?

The First Minister:

I want to be very clear about the facts. First, we are proud of this policy, which we have delivered and fully funded. Indeed, given the policies that it would pursue in many other areas, a nationalist Government would never be able to fund it. Secondly, a clear majority of Scotland's local authorities are using the allocated resources to implement the policy in full. The councils that are not spending this money that we give them on elderly people should be doing so; if they do not, there are procedures that we can and will follow.

Nicola Sturgeon:

A good place for the First Minister to start might be to stop condoning waiting lists. This policy is not being funded adequately, which is why many vulnerable old people throughout Scotland are on waiting lists for care that they are entitled to receive when they need it.

Read out the whole letter.

Is it not time that, instead of trying to play the blame game with councils, the First Minister took some responsibility and sorted the matter out?

Ms Sturgeon has declined every invitation to read out the letter—

You read it out. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

What Ms Sturgeon does not say is that, first, the policy, as agreed by the Parliament, is crystal clear. Secondly, the policy has been fully funded on the estimates that local authorities have provided. Thirdly, a majority of local authorities deliver the policy as defined and within the budgets that we have given them. Councils that are not spending this money we have given them directly on older people should be doing so; if they do not, we will follow the procedures that are available.


Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues they will discuss. (S2F-2341)

I met the Prime Minister, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Home Secretary earlier this week and had a number of interesting discussions with them.

Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):

That must have been some convention of minds. Perhaps in the course of those discussions a succession was made clear.

With the passing of its Community Care and Health (Scotland) Act 2002, the Executive promised that personal care would be free to the elderly in Scotland and that food preparation would be included in that right. Four years on, the Executive has breached that commitment. Will the First Minister explain why so many councils in Scotland are finding it almost impossible to meet the Executive's commitment to free personal care for the elderly and why there should be any doubt about the inclusion of food preparation?

The First Minister:

Although I appreciate the reasonable way in which Annabel Goldie has put her question, I disagree with its content. First, the policy is very clear. Secondly, it has been fully funded on estimates that were provided by local authorities after our joint work on the matter. Thirdly, it has been described by a cross-party group in the Parliament as an excellent policy that is being well implemented. Fourthly—and most critical—the majority of Scottish local authorities are fully implementing the policy with the funds that have been made available to them. They all have an obligation and duty to do so, and those that are not meeting that obligation are diverting money into other areas. That should not be happening and, unless those councils start using that money to implement the policy, we will take action against them.

Miss Goldie:

The First Minister seems to have suggested that some councils have received, but have misspent, their allocation. In response to Ms Sturgeon, he said that, where that unhappy circumstance has arisen, there are "clear procedures that will be followed". Elderly people are not interested in squabbles between councillors and the Executive and the problem will not be resolved by blaming someone else. If clear procedures will be followed to deal with this matter, does the First Minister accept that, having created the right to free personal care, the Executive has a legal responsibility to ensure that that care is provided when and where it is needed—not after someone has languished on a waiting list—and that that requires adequate funding?

The First Minister:

The direct implication of Miss Goldie's question is that we should take the responsibility for delivering elderly care services away from local authorities and deliver them centrally. If that is what the Tories are suggesting, they should have been honest about that when the legislation was debated and lodged an amendment to that effect. If they wish to move such a motion now, we will happily debate it with them.

Our judgment is that, given the current distribution and the services that are provided through social work, local authorities are the best mechanism for making these decisions and for ensuring that services are properly delivered at local level. As I said, the majority of Scotland's local authorities deliver the policy in full within the resources that were agreed with them and identified by them as being required to deliver it. The minority of authorities that appear not to be doing so at the moment are wrong. They should be doing so and, unless they do so, we will move into the procedures that are available and will take action against them.

A few weeks ago, we learned that the Executive was bailing out Scottish Enterprise to the tune of £45 million. In that case, an Executive agency had overspent, just as the First Minister states that certain councils have overspent.

Underspent.

Miss Goldie:

The First Minister made it clear this morning that he considered that some councils had received money but had not allocated it to the intended use. The point is that he is alleging that there is a misallocation of resource by the councils. I am pointing out that, at the end of the day, there is a client group whose members are not getting the services that they were promised because of a breach somewhere along the line. The councils are arguing that absence of resource and lack of money are responsible. If the kernel of the problem is money, as certain councils are alleging, and if one council has totally closed the books, saying, "No resource. No cash. Can't provide the service," will the First Minister explain why he can bail out the enterprise agency but is not willing to step in now with his procedures—whatever they are—to implement the free personal care obligation that the Executive has placed on those councils?

The First Minister:

First, we agreed the amount of money required with the local authorities and their representatives. Secondly, the vast majority of Scotland's councils are delivering that service, as agreed by the Parliament, in the interests of elderly people, who should come first, and they are doing so within the resources that are available to them. Thirdly, those councils that are not delivering that service are failing to do so because they are underspending, not overspending. If they have been given money that they are not currently spending on the service, it would be a ludicrous outcome for us just to give them some more so that they can spend it somewhere else if they wish. They need to spend their budgets on the priorities that are needed by local people and on the needs that are assessed under the legislation, putting the individual elderly citizen first. When they do that, the policy will be implemented in full.

Karen Whitefield (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab):

Is the First Minister aware of the death from tuberculosis of three of my constituents at Eastercroft House nursing home in Caldercruix? Can he assure me that a full investigation will be conducted into the outbreaks of that disease, that full consideration will be given to the steps that can be take to contain the spread of TB and that, if appropriate, improvements to action in such circumstances will be made to safeguard vulnerable residents and staff?

The First Minister:

First of all, we want to express our sympathy with the families of those who have been most affected by what appears to be an outbreak. We wish those who are currently feeling ill or who could be affected a full and speedy recovery. The outbreak team is meeting regularly and all the appropriate procedures have been put in place. However, it will be essential during and after the incident that we learn any lessons that have to be learned and that people across Scotland see the example of what has taken place and ensure that best practice is implemented elsewhere, should anything like this occur again. We must also look again at the way in which we educate those who run establishments, to ensure that they have the highest standards of cleanliness and hygiene at all times.


Scottish Executive (Targets)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive is satisfied with its progress towards meeting its targets. (S2F-2348)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

With 11 months until the end of this parliamentary session, we have had sustained economic growth in every quarter since the previous election, health waiting times are at their lowest ever levels, attainment in schools is up on all criteria since devolution, crime is coming down, our courts are better at delivering justice and clear-up rates for crime are up. The policies of the devolved Government are helping to deliver real improvements in Scotland.

Dennis Canavan:

Given the Executive's target of reducing the number of pupils to a maximum of 20 in all secondary 1 and secondary 2 maths and English classes by next year, how on earth can it be satisfied with progress when the truth is that it does not know what progress—if any—has been made? The most up-to-date figures that the Executive has produced are for September 2003, when around 8,000 such classes had more than 20 pupils.

The First Minister:

Even Mr Canavan—who, like me, is a former maths teacher—will acknowledge that as the policy was established in 2003, its achievements will not be measured by what happened in that year. It was precisely because of the 2003 figures that we decided that the big priority for secondary reforms had to be reducing English and maths S1 and S2 class sizes. There is a problem that other parties should recognise. Young people can have difficulties with the transition from primary schools, such as the successful school that I visited this morning, to secondary schools. We know that many disciplinary, achievement and attainment problems in our schools start in those years and classes. That is why there is a record number of people on teacher training courses and why there has been more than a 100 per cent increase in the number of maths teachers in training since 2003. We are well on track to delivering our commitment, which is important and central to improving the life chances of young people in Scotland.

Dennis Canavan:

Will the First Minister please stop waffling and answer the question? As a former maths teacher, he is surely capable of counting the number of pupils in all S1 and S2 maths and English classes and the number of maths and English classes that currently have more than 20 pupils. Is he aware that when I asked all 32 local authorities for their up-to-date figures, the 20 responses that I received indicated that more than 80 per cent of maths and English classes have more than 20 pupils? Will he therefore take urgent steps to assess and rectify the situation? At the current rate of progress, the Executive has as much chance of hitting next year's targets as Scotland has of winning this year's world cup.

The First Minister:

I have every respect for Mr Canavan as a politician, but sometimes I worry about his mathematics when he reads one of his pre-prepared speeches. Anybody with any common sense can see that it takes time to train maths and English teachers. The fact that the number of trainee maths teachers has increased by 116 per cent since 2003 and the number of trainee English teachers has increased by 145 per cent shows that additional teachers are being trained. The target does not relate to last year, the year before last year or the year before that—it relates to next year, when those teachers will have been trained and will be in classrooms and the target will have been met.


Glasgow Bar Association

To ask the First Minister what action is being taken to respond to the vote by court lawyers in the Glasgow Bar Association to refuse to defend sex offenders because of issues over legal aid payments. (S2F-2344)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

I see no justifiable reason for legal professionals putting public safety at risk. We are ready to discuss with the Law Society of Scotland the offer that was made some weeks ago of a considerable interim increase in legal aid fees. However, we will make contingency arrangements for the possibility that people might carry out their irresponsible threat.

Bill Butler:

I thank the First Minister for his straightforward reply. He will be aware that when trade unions take strike action, they always seek to ensure that protection and cover are in place for the most vulnerable. Does the First Minister agree that, in light of the measures that the Executive has introduced to deal with sex offenders, it is unacceptable that lawyers—some of whom are very well paid indeed—could put public safety at risk, especially in the most serious cases, in order to negotiate a better pay deal? Furthermore, will he confirm that if private company lawyers do not think that representing sex offenders pays enough, public sector lawyers will represent sex offenders in the interests of public safety and to avoid delays in the dispensation of justice and consequent stress to victims and witnesses?

The First Minister:

I will make three points. First, we will of course put contingency plans in place and they will involve—in addition to any other measures that we identify—the use of the Public Defence Solicitors Office, which I assume is what Bill Butler refers to.

Secondly, it is important to acknowledge that the fees for solemn criminal work were increased in 2004 by 15 per cent for advocacy and by other figures above the rate of inflation for other areas of work. The offer on the table from us, as an interim increase, is 8 per cent for advocacy and 5 per cent for other work.

Thirdly, with such substantial increases already delivered and on offer, it is shocking and disgraceful that, in order to heighten public concern and to scare the public into putting pressure on us, the lawyers in the Glasgow Bar Association have threatened to create chaos in the prosecution of sex offences in particular. They should be ashamed of themselves. They should call the action off and get round the table to discuss the issue with officials from the Justice Department and then with the justice ministers, in order to reach a solution.

Margaret Mitchell (Central Scotland) (Con):

Although the action by the Glasgow Bar Association could not possibly be condoned, does the First Minister accept that action is being threatened because—among other issues relating to legal aid—the association and the Faculty of Advocates are furious? They agreed to co-operate fully and to change their work practices to ensure early disclosure and to comply with the Bonomy proposals for High Court reform—legislation that the First Minister is not slow to take credit for—but the promises that were made by the Labour and Liberal Democrat coalition have not to date been honoured. In fact, there has been a downrating across the board.

The First Minister:

I have acknowledged that there was an issue to do with legal aid payments. That issue arose under the previous Conservative Government and continued after 1997. There was a lack of regular annual increases. However, the issue has been tackled with the substantial increase in 2004 that I have described and with the substantial increase that has been proposed as an interim increase for 2005.

It is interesting to note that the Conservative party, although it talks regularly about not putting the abusers' interests first, is very quick to defend those who are better off in society and allow them a free hand in making this kind of threat to members of the public. The Tories should put the victims and witnesses of crime first and they should stop defending those who are threatening to put our court system into some sort of chaos.


Scottish Criminal Record Office Inquiry

To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Executive will take to give effect to motions S2M-4485 and S2M-4486, agreed without dissent by the Justice 1 Committee on 1 June 2006. (S2F-2342)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Motion S2M-4485 concerns a report that was provided as part of a criminal investigation; as such, it is a matter for the Lord Advocate. Motion S2M-4486 is being considered by the Minister for Justice. We will try to find a way forward that will assist the committee while preserving the important legal principles that the Minister for Justice has previously set out.

Stewart Stevenson:

I hope that the First Minister will accept that there is common cause to reinstate confidence in the fingerprint system in Scotland—which, of course, is why the motions were passed by a unanimous vote in the committee.

The First Minister mentioned the Lord Advocate. The report that is being sought is, in essence, in the public domain, but the detail behind it is not yet in the public domain. It would be of very great assistance if the First Minister could assure us that further efforts will be made. I hope that the First Minister is able to assure Parliament—and I invite him to do so—that the discussions that are currently taking place with the Minister for Justice will be rapidly concluded. The investigation by the committee is well under way and we have little time left.

The First Minister:

In some of the sessions of the Justice 1 Committee this week, we have seen the difficulties in this case and the difficulties in ensuring that a conclusion can be reached that will help to rebuild confidence in the justice system—not only in the fingerprint service but in other aspects of the system too. I absolutely agree with Stewart Stevenson if he is genuine about seeking common cause to restore that confidence. I welcome that indication and I hope that in the work and in the conclusions of the committee, we will see that that objective is clear.

It is my sincere belief that matters relating to reports commissioned by the prosecution in Scotland are not matters for politicians and I hope that the committee will take that into account. I believe that such matters are matters for the Lord Advocate and need to be handled properly to ensure that our legal system is not put in a difficult position in the future by any precedents that would be set.

In relation to matters that affect the Executive and reports commissioned by us for legal advice in advance of cases in which we are defending the public interest, there are important issues to be considered. The Minister for Justice is happy to discuss those issues in detail with representatives of the Justice 1 Committee. A meeting has already taken place between the convener of the committee and the Minister for Justice. I understand that this week's meeting was a helpful initial attempt at finding a way forward. We are determined to assist the committee as much as we can.

Pauline McNeill (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab):

The First Minister has alluded to the meeting that I had with the Minister for Justice this week at which, as the committee's representative, I set out the case for the committee to have access to both MacLeod reports and the Mike Pass report.

Does the First Minister acknowledge the cross-party efforts that the Justice 1 Committee has made to give an extremely important issue a public airing? Does he accept assurances from me as the committee's convener that we have no desire either to override the important issues that must be taken into account when the release of the reports in question is considered or to set a precedent? Does he agree that it is in the interest of the public and of the Parliament to ensure that we obtain all the information that is relevant to our important inquiry into the McKie case and the Scottish fingerprint service, so that we can make our findings?

The First Minister:

It is important that the information that is made available, the advice that we give and the assistance that we provide help the committee to conduct itself in a way that is helpful to ensuring that we restore confidence in the fingerprint service and the system as a whole. I welcome the fact that committee members from different parties have indicated that that is their objective. I simply counsel that there are important principles to do with the independence of the prosecution from politicians that the committee needs to heed in the work that it undertakes.

I believe that the committee has done a good job so far. It will be important for it to take further evidence—I understand that that is its intention. I hope that we can reach a conclusion on the issue speedily and that we can ensure that the committee's recommendations and the actions of ministers work together to ensure that people in Scotland can have faith in the system and can believe that, in spite of the disagreements that may exist among experts about individual fingerprints or anything else, the system as a whole is robust and that the principles of the Scottish legal system will be maintained.


Teachers (Paperwork)

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive will institute a study to assist with the reduction or simplification of paperwork undertaken by Scotland's teachers. (S2F-2351)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

There have been a number of studies and action is being taken on them. If there are sensible suggestions for a further study that would add to the sum total of knowledge, we would be happy to examine them, but I remind the Parliament that we have reduced the administrative burden on teachers by increasing the number of classroom assistants, finding new ways of collecting data and introducing non-classroom support staff. The introduction of bursars in secondary schools and business managers in primary schools has been particularly important. Those measures are helping us to achieve the attainment levels that I mentioned in answer to Dennis Canavan's question.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:

Although I welcome the tone of the First Minister's reply, does he accept that it is unacceptable that five years after the agreement of the teacher's settlement, only 8.5 per cent of the teachers who were questioned by the National Association of Schoolmasters Union of Women Teachers said that their workload had reduced, whereas some 81 per cent of them wanted further reductions in the amount of paperwork and bureaucracy that they faced? Does he agree that, at least, the number of classroom support staff promised in the McCrone agreement should be available and that their deployment throughout Scotland should be more efficient so that teachers are freed up to teach, to plan innovative lessons and to provide constructive assessment to pupils? There is considerable evidence that the pattern of employment of classroom support staff is not uniform throughout the country but varies considerably from authority to authority.

The First Minister:

I hesitate to talk too much about the workload of my former colleagues. However, we all want to see reductions in workload—most people in most jobs would say that. What is important is that the workload in Scottish schools is right and is focused on the correct activities for teachers and other staff in the classroom and elsewhere in the school. More than 3,000 additional support staff members have been provided since the agreement, and there will be many more. Those staff are reducing the administrative and support burden on teachers.

The increase in the number of teachers is assisting not just teachers but, more important, pupils and parents to improve education and to achieve higher attainment levels. Our objective should be not to have an arbitrary reduction in workload but to secure improvements in the classroom. That means freeing up teachers for more preparation and marking time, which the agreement did. We must also encourage teachers and others who work in our schools to take part in extra-curricular activities, as they did when I started to teach back in 1983. That got lost in the 1980s and 1990s, but it needs to return.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—