Plenary, 04 Mar 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, March 4, 2004

Official Report 638KB pdf

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Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill

The next item of business is a debate on motion S2M-699, in the name of Cathy Jamieson, that the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill be passed.

I am delighted to speak in the debate. As members will be aware, the reforms that the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill will put in place were first proposed in the consultation document "Vital Voices: Helping Vulnerable Witnesses Give Evidence". That title sums up exactly what the bill is about: it is about enabling the voices of our most vulnerable witnesses to be heard, so that they can fulfil their vital role in the justice system.

Witnesses are an essential part of our justice system and we must ensure that they are treated with the sensitivity and respect that they deserve. The bill is another significant step forward in putting the needs of victims and witnesses at the heart of our justice system. Today, we will put into practice the Executive's commitment to reform by delivering on our promise to improve the way in which vulnerable witnesses are treated.

The interests of justice are, of course, best served by ensuring that individuals who need extra help to give their best evidence receive that help. The bill respects the needs of the most vulnerable people and children—each one is treated as an individual—and it will ensure that real people who face real situations receive the support that they need to give evidence when they have to appear in court. I believe that that is right. I have been heartened by the comments that I have heard today and I trust that Parliament will agree to give its full support to the bill.

Many people have contributed to the process that got us here today. A wide range of organisations and individuals have engaged with us on the bill, including voluntary sector organisations, professional agencies and many more. I place on record my thanks to each and every one of them. Those organisations contributed their time, energy and ideas and their participation was invaluable. Many of their views and concerns are reflected in the bill as it stands, and it is better for that.

I thank the Justice 2 Committee members and staff for their hard work in giving detailed consideration to the principles of the bill and for their scrutiny and input at stage 2. The committee produced a thorough and carefully considered stage 1 report, and the Executive was happy to support a number of amendments that committee members suggested at stage 2. I also thank the bill team for its hard work in preparing the bill and the accompanying material. A considerable amount of work was done between the bill team and the committee to ensure that views were taken on board.

We listened to and considered carefully concerns that the bill, as originally drafted, did not go far enough. We understood the need to support amendments such as those that were lodged by Karen Whitefield at stage 2 and by Mike Pringle today, which have strengthened the safeguards for child witnesses. We consider that the bill as it stands strikes the right balance: the fairness of judicial proceedings has been not weakened, but strengthened, by measures that will ensure that the court hears the best available evidence.

We should not underestimate the changes that the bill will bring about. When it is fully implemented, thousands of Scots will have access to extra support to help them speak up in court. In some cases, because of the abolition of the competence test, vulnerable witnesses will be heard for the first time. Without the bill, that would not be possible. From previous personal experience of supporting child witnesses and vulnerable adult witnesses, I know just how daunting court processes can be. That was described in the evidence sessions at stage 1 and as the bill made its way through the parliamentary process, including this morning. Over the years, many people have argued and campaigned for the real and practical measures that are in the bill.

It is important to recognise that the bill is part of a much wider programme of work on victims and witnesses that the new victims and witnesses unit in the Executive is undertaking. Victim statement schemes are being piloted; further guidance for the child witness guidance pack is being finalised; and proposals are being developed to pilot vulnerable witness officers to provide on-going support to agencies and to help ensure that the needs of all vulnerable witnesses are met.

Our radical court reforms will also help, and I was pleased that members recognised that this morning. Last week, Parliament agreed to the general principles of the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill, which, as I have said before, is a key part of our reforms to improve the efficiency of the criminal justice system. As was graphically described this morning, constant adjournments and delays are not efficient. We know that they can be particularly stressful for victims and witnesses, which is why we are taking action to improve procedures and to eliminate practices that cause delays, so that cases proceed as smoothly as possible.

I understand fully Jackie Baillie's motivation in raising the issue of delays. I am glad that she was reassured on that point and I am sure that she agrees that it is particularly pleasing that the Parliament strongly supported the principles of the Criminal Procedure (Amendment) (Scotland) Bill. During the debate on that bill, many members made the point that we must end unnecessary delays.

The rights of victims and witnesses are now firmly on the justice agenda; indeed, they are central to it. We continue to argue strongly that everyone in the system should make the culture changes that are needed. My deputy, Hugh Henry, recently addressed a seminar on child witnesses that was organised by the Faculty of Advocates and which was aimed at raising awareness of the issues among advocates. I am pleased that the Law Society of Scotland intends to have a vulnerable witness conference at the end of this month.

The Scottish Court Service is engaged in a wide range of work that will help vulnerable witnesses. On recent visits to courts, I saw two practical examples of the differences that can be made through a culture change; not necessarily by spending huge sums of money, but by demonstrating a will to be receptive to the needs of victims and witnesses.

Separate secure entrances are available for vulnerable witnesses at the High Court in Glasgow, for example. The witnesses are met by witness support staff and accompanied to separate waiting accommodation. Sofas and easy chairs are available and toys and games are given to younger children. When I visited the court in Aberdeen, I was pleased to note that there was a range of children's toys, books, magazines, televisions and videos in the witness rooms. I noticed that brightly coloured posters advertised a selection of video tapes. Such little touches make a difference to people who have to spend time in a place where they might prefer not to be. A customer care team regularly reviews the items that are available to ensure that they are up to date and in good order.

The fact that the treatment of vulnerable witnesses is being taken seriously by such organisations shows that the culture change that we have discussed for so long is taking place. Such approaches demonstrate that taking the time to think about what can be done to make things better for victims and witnesses will often produce ideas for relatively small, simple and easily achieved changes that can make a big difference to people's experience of the court system. One's personal experiences shape one's opinions of the justice system and determine whether one believes that justice has been delivered.

Where do we go from here? Today's consideration of the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill is not the end of the matter, of course. It has been stressed time and again this morning that we are committed to ensuring that the bill is implemented successfully. Early identification, training and monitoring of the provisions will be vital in ensuring that the bill is as effective as we want it to be.

As Hugh Henry mentioned, the Lord Advocate has committed to issuing instructions to the police on the identification and reporting of vulnerable witnesses. That will be backed up by training and guidance, so that the police will know what to look for when considering issues of vulnerability. The Crown Office intends to update its guidance to staff as a result of the bill and will include interested organisations in that development process.

We are committed to implementing the bill in full. That will take time, so it will be done in phases. It makes sense to focus attention on the most serious cases first, to take time to ensure that implementation is effective and to learn lessons from one phase to the next. We want appropriate protection and support to be given to vulnerable witnesses in High Court and sheriff court criminal cases and in civil proceedings, including children's hearings referrals.

It is easy for public attention to focus on big, headline-grabbing High Court cases, but there can be vulnerable witnesses in other cases. Maureen Macmillan has referred in the past, and did so again today, to the problems of vulnerable witnesses in civil cases such as matrimonial interdicts or protection from abuse interdicts. She argued that the nature of the relationship between parties in such civil cases could lead to people being vulnerable in such circumstances. The bill extends special measures to civil proceedings for those precise reasons. We will not lose sight of such issues when the bill is being implemented.

I thank everyone who has been involved in bringing the bill through Parliament. I do not doubt that the bill will make a real difference to vulnerable witnesses' experience of the justice system. I am delighted to commend the bill to Parliament and I ask members to give it their full support.

I move,

That the Parliament agrees that the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill be passed.

I intend to be relatively brief, to allow other members to participate in the debate. The Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill, which we are about to pass into law, is important. Like the minister, I thank those involved in the progress of the bill, particularly those behind the scenes, such as the bill team and the clerks of the Justice 2 Committee. I thank everyone who gave evidence, orally or in writing, to the Justice 2 Committee at the earlier stages of the bill. That essential evidence enabled the committee to produce a report which, although not all its recommendations were taken on board, has influenced the final shape of the bill in a positive manner.

The minister alluded to the fact that the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill is just one piece in the jigsaw of court reform. Other bills that we will consider later in this parliamentary session are equally important. It is important to stress, as the minister did, that legislation alone will not deliver all the reforms that are required in the courts system.

Our courts are steeped in centuries of tradition, much of which is worth protecting and retaining. Some aspects of the way things are done in the courts need to be brought into the modern age, to have a much greater public focus and to take account of the needs and wishes of the victims of crime and those giving evidence. The bill will help in that regard, but the minister is right to speak of the need for a culture change, which is already emerging. We should avoid complacency, however, because the culture change will have to continue if the bill's intentions are to be translated into practice.

The bill is important for the reasons that have been outlined at all stages of its progress. It is right that witnesses who are vulnerable because of their age or disability, or simply because of the nature of the case in which they are giving evidence, should be supported. Vulnerable witnesses can apply under this bill to avail themselves of a range of special measures, such as live television links or the right to give evidence from behind a screen or with a supporter sitting next to them. Such measures should help witnesses to give evidence in a way that is less stressful than the normal method of getting in the witness box and being examined and re-examined in the full glare of everyone else who is present. In criminal cases, a person accused of committing horrific violent or sexual crimes against a witness may be present when the witness gives evidence.

The experience of child witnesses will be significantly improved as a result of this bill. A number of the amendments that were proposed would have allowed the bill to go further, but nevertheless we should reflect on how far we have come.

Perhaps the important point that the bill serves the wider interests of justice has been lost. A witness who is terrified, for whatever reason, by the prospect of giving evidence in court is unlikely to be able to get into the witness box to tell their story in a clear and lucid manner. Courts in this country, particularly criminal courts, rely on the presentation of honest and accurate evidence. It is in the interests of everyone involved in court cases—the Crown and the accused in criminal cases and the pursuer and the defendant in civil cases—that witnesses are helped to give their best evidence.

Although this is an important bill that deserves support, we should ensure that it strikes a fine balance, especially in criminal cases. The balance between protecting vulnerable witnesses and ensuring the right to a fair trial of a person accused of crime has been discussed already this morning. Under this country's adversarial system of justice, everyone is innocent until proven guilty. As there is an onus on the Crown to prove beyond reasonable doubt that a person is guilty, accused persons have the fundamental right to test to the full the evidence presented against them in court.

Throughout this legislative process, we have had to ask whether the necessary balance has been struck in the right place in the bill. I think that overall, in broad terms, that balance has been struck, although the amendments that I proposed today suggest that I have some residual concerns. I fear that we may not have heard the last of the debate about the right of the accused to be heard on vulnerable witness applications. I suppose that we will have to wait and see about that.

I would like to speak about the early identification of vulnerable witnesses and the related issue of resources. At its heart, the bill relates to court procedure. If it is to work properly, it must have the active co-operation of all the agencies involved in the justice system. The bill puts the onus on lawyers to apply for special measures on behalf of witnesses. This will involve the procurator fiscal in most cases, but it often happens that the procurator fiscal does not meet the witness until the first day of the trial. In practice, early identification will depend less on lawyers and much more on other agencies, precognition agents, the police and voluntary organisations such as Victim Support and Women's Aid. One theme that ran strongly through the Justice 2 Committee's consideration of the bill is that all those agencies must be trained—the minister made some comments about training—and adequately resourced, to enable them to identify and support vulnerable witnesses. If we do not do that, there is a danger that the bill will not make the difference that we all think, and hope, that it is capable of making.

With those comments, I am happy to support the passage of the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill.

I, too, shall be brief. My concept of brevity may be slightly different to the previous speaker's—I will do my best.

Unaccustomed as I am to supporting the Executive on justice matters in Scotland, I find myself in the slightly unusual position of welcoming the Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill, which has the support of Conservative members. There is no doubt that for witnesses who come forward and who are vulnerable and in need of support, the bill offers more structured and certainly more extensive measures than have previously been available. The bill is to be welcomed as a worthwhile contribution to improving the court environment for vulnerable witnesses.

I thank the minister for her remarks about the Justice 2 Committee. I think that I speak for all members of the committee when I say that we found it an interesting bill with which to be involved, and I am glad if our scrutiny and discussions assisted with the clarification and drafting of the bill.

There is an important issue in relation to resource, and I reiterate the concerns that were expressed at stage 1 by both the Finance Committee and the Justice 2 Committee, and indeed the admission of the Executive even at that stage that some of the costs might be higher than the estimates. It would be regrettable if the legislation ended up being either obsolete or unworkable because proper resourcing was not in place, and I urge the minister to be cautious and careful about ensuring that resource is there when the bill is enacted and its provisions are implemented.

In relation to the point that Nicola Sturgeon mentioned, evaluation will also be important. I would welcome a commitment from the minister if, for example, the Lord Advocate was prepared to assess the working model of the legislation as it proceeds, and if any difficulties are identified they should be quickly picked up on and noted. I hope that the absence of the right of the accused to question an application for a witness to be treated as a vulnerable witness will not impugn the integrity of the succeeding trial, but only time will tell—there are important issues lurking in that.

I make a plea about draftsmanship; I raised the point at previous stages of the bill. I have to say that the bill, as a working tool for practitioners and judges in court, is not user friendly. About 14 fingers and 10 pairs of eyes will be required to assimilate the provisions quickly, particularly where practitioners refer to the provisions in submissions to judges, and similarly where judges consider the submissions of practitioners. If I have a plea to the parliamentary draftsmen, it is that it is far better to be simple, even if that extends the length of legislation, because that makes bills simpler to read and more readily understood.

As Nicola Sturgeon indicated, the bill is part of the broader framework of the criminal justice system in Scotland. The legislation is predicated on witnesses being available. Of course, witnesses will not be available if the law-abiding public are in any way apprehensive about the efficacy of our criminal justice system and if, having witnessed an offence, they are concerned about whether it is worth while to come forward. Delays, lack of resource and—dare I say it—the prospect of automatic early release are all factors that influence the law-abiding public's willingness to be witnesses. I urge the minister to have regard to that broader picture.

The bill is welcome and I have pleasure in supporting it on behalf of the Conservatives.

The Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Bill is the first big piece of legislation in the justice field that the Parliament has had to deal with in its second session. There is no doubt that the Executive has set its sights on improving the judicial system in Scotland, and several other important measures will follow this one.

Like Nicola Sturgeon and others, I thank all those who worked extremely hard on the bill, including the bill team. I thank the members of the Justice 2 Committee, on which I sit. As members know, this is my first term and this is the first major piece of legislation that I have been involved in. I thank all the members of the committee for helping me through the process—I found their help extremely useful.

Improvements to the judicial system began in the previous session of Parliament. In early 2003, the then Minister for Justice, Jim Wallace, announced 62 audiovisual units for Scottish courts. The Executive has already given £850,000 for a new victims and witnesses unit to co-ordinate support from a range of professional agencies, including the police, fiscals, solicitors and social workers, and the Scottish Executive has earmarked £4 million for the witness support service, which is much to be welcomed.

The bill is a continuation of that work. It aims to improve how witnesses are treated by the justice system. It will provide better protection for children and vulnerable witnesses, many of whom are victims of crime. It will also allow vulnerable witnesses to give their best evidence in the best possible circumstances. There is a wide range of new measures—we all know what they are, and I welcome them.

The emphasis of the bill will change how criminal cases are dealt with. In the chamber last week, I said that we have to make things better for witnesses in general. There is no doubt that the experience of witnesses throughout the judicial system is not good. Many of us know of cases in which even the smallest trials have been delayed endlessly and people have had to give up huge amounts of their time to give evidence. We should do anything that we can to make that experience better for people. If people are prepared to give their time and go to court as witnesses, that helps the justice system and gives us all better justice. The bill will make things better for vulnerable witnesses in future cases, and I welcome it.

I begin by thanking the clerks of the Justice 2 Committee for their hard work and diligence in supporting the committee during the passage of the bill. Their efforts often go unnoticed by members of the public, but I assure them that MSPs recognise the vital part that they play in the smooth running of the legislative process in the Parliament. I also thank the groups and organisations who gave evidence to the committee at stage 1. It is vital that legislation is shaped and influenced by the experience of those whom it will directly affect.

The Parliament is often criticised—unfairly, in my view—for not dealing with the priorities of the people of Scotland. There is no doubt that the bill will make a difference to people in Scotland. I can honestly say that the issue was not raised often by people on the doorstep in last year's election campaign. However, the most important issues are not always those that are most talked about, and the bill tackles exactly the kind of issues that the Parliament was established to deal with. In all likelihood, the bill would never have found legislative time at Westminster, yet it will make a real difference to ordinary men, women and children throughout Scotland. It will increase protection for the most vulnerable citizens in Scottish society and it will help to improve our criminal justice system.

For too many years, witnesses have faced the possibility of a continuation of their abuse in court. In the worst cases, victims have faced prolonged periods of interrogation by their alleged abuser. Along with other criminal justice measures, some of which have already been passed by the Parliament, the bill will help to redress the balance of our criminal justice system towards supporting the rights of victims and witnesses.

I am sure that all members agree that it is right to take every step to protect our most vulnerable witnesses, including children, people with learning disabilities and those who have been the victim of violent and sexual assaults. I am convinced that providing a more secure and less threatening environment for such witnesses to give evidence will help to ensure that they can give their best and most accurate evidence. That will allow the justice system to do its job and to secure convictions where appropriate. Of course, it is also important to protect the right of the accused to a fair trial. That issue has attracted considerable debate during the bill's passage through Parliament. However, the bill continues to protect that fundamental right.

I welcome the Minister for Justice's announcement that the Executive has established a victims and witnesses unit. It makes perfect sense that support services for victims and witnesses should come under the auspices of a single agency. As the Deputy Minister for Justice said in his letter to the Justice 2 Committee's convener, the unit will play a vital part in the bill's implementation, monitoring and evaluation.

The Scottish Executive is committed to building a more efficient and effective justice system that is founded on the basic principles of fairness and equality. By providing greater protection for our most vulnerable witnesses, the bill contributes to that commitment. I welcome the passing of the bill, which represents a vital and significant step towards achieving our goal of a fairer and more just criminal justice system. I have great pleasure in supporting the bill.

The fact that we are making more rapid progress than the timetabling motion suggested is no reflection on the serious way in which the Justice 2 Committee and the Parliament have considered the bill. I congratulate all those who were involved in developing the bill, as it is a worthwhile addition to the improvements that are being made for victims and witnesses in the criminal justice system. Victims and witnesses have long been a neglected and largely forgotten part of the criminal justice system.

I recall being a witness when I was seven. Fortunately, I did not have to go to court. I witnessed a minor matter that involved a bus reversing into a car. Just being interviewed by a policewoman in quite a relaxed way was daunting for a seven-year-old. It would have been much more so if I had been older and had had to go to court, although those were circumstances of no particular pressure. The bill is a welcome development.

Excellent developments have been made to protect victims of sexual offences, on which I have commented. Mike Pringle properly focused on the need to give training a priority and the deputy minister gave us assurances about that. The amount of change in the criminal justice system and in the operation of courts presents the formidable challenge of bringing sheriffs and all who are involved in courts up to an appropriate level of behaviour and experience and of understanding of the legislation. We will watch that with considerable care.

The introduction of victim statements after verdicts and before sentencing was a useful change that was made in the previous parliamentary session, as was the requirement to notify victims when serious offenders are to be released and when they are to be considered by the Parole Board for Scotland. That is all good and adds to the list of worthwhile improvements that have been made.

Annabel Goldie referred to witnesses' concerns and fears in some circumstances. While considering the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill, the Communities Committee has deliberated a range of issues that are associated with antisocial behaviour and crime in our communities. We will debate the bill next week. I will not tread on the toes of that too much, but one element that has emerged from those discussions and which is worth thinking about is the role of professional witnesses when repeated and serious intimidation occurs. The Executive might wish to consider developing further the role of professional witnesses in some circumstances and the Communities Committee will no doubt return to that subject next week.

As a layman rather than a lawyer, I have always found it slightly bizarre that in our criminal justice system, the Crown Office acts as a neutral arbiter of the balance between the victim and the accused. The situation is different in other countries, where the prosecutor represents the victim. That has further scope for consideration. Such a move would be part of supporting witnesses and victims.

The bill is welcome. I will take great pleasure in supporting it come decision time.

I am pleased to support the bill. I declare an interest as a long-time member and a present director of Ross-shire Women's Aid; I have seen at first hand the traumatic effect of the criminal justice system on women who have suffered abuse. Fear of confronting an abuser in court has often made women refuse to be witnesses when their partner has assaulted them. Fear has caused them to refuse to give evidence against their abusers. Members should make no mistake—women in those circumstances find the whole process intimidating and terrifying, as do the Women's Aid workers who support them.

In its evidence to the Justice 2 Committee, Rape Crisis Scotland provided dreadful statistics about rape and sexual assault victims' engagement with our justice system. Of the women who contact rape crisis centres, 80 per cent do not report the incidents to the police. When incidents are reported, the conviction rate is low—it is between 10 and 15 per cent—yet only between 2 and 4 per cent of complaints are found to be false. Those dire statistics are a result of how the police, fiscals and lawyers have treated rape and sexual assault victims. I am glad that attitudes are changing, thanks in no small way to the Executive and the Parliament's engagement with the issues. That is also due in large part to the number of women in Parliament who have pressed the agenda.

The bill will make another step change in our justice system, which has for too long been the preserve of lawyers and the police. Our justice system is for the public, who need to feel comfortable and confident about giving evidence in court. We must remember that the bill is intended to support witnesses to give their best evidence—not to be soft on witnesses. The balance is right between witness support and the rights of the accused.

The quality of the training that is given to the police, fiscals, solicitors in private practice and advocates will be important in rolling out the legislation. I am content that the Executive will ensure that training is given to the police, fiscals and sheriffs, and that organisations such as Rape Crisis and Women's Aid will advise on that training. However, in civil cases, all will depend on the solicitor or advocate applying for special measures. I hope that the Law Society of Scotland and the Faculty of Advocates will meet their responsibilities through their continuing professional development courses.

I thank the clerks to the Justice 2 Committee for their hard work at all stages of the bill and I thank the many organisations that gave evidence to the committee and informed our discussions. I have great pleasure in supporting the bill.

Jackie Baillie can make a speech of a couple of minutes.

In the short time that is left I will say that, like many in the chamber, I support the bill, which will make a substantial difference to the experience of children, young people and vulnerable adults in our courts. I am reassured and encouraged by the deputy minister's comments about people with non-visible disabilities and about dealing with delays in the system. I am convinced that the potential for realising the bill depends on the need to encourage the culture change to which the Minister for Justice referred, whether through training or guidance or by involving witnesses. What is important is monitoring the effectiveness of implementation.

The bill was introduced for the children and young people throughout Scotland who are likely to be vulnerable witnesses. It is a breath of fresh air in the justice system and ministers are to be commended for bringing it to the Parliament.

I bid a warm welcome to the Ceann Comhairle, Dr Rory O'Hanlon, and the rest of the delegation from the Irish Parliament. A Chinn Chomhairle, tha Parlamaid na h-Alba a' cur fàilte—ceud mìle fàilte—oirbh uile. [Applause.]