Equal Opportunities Committee, 20 Jun 2000

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 20, 2000

Official Report 261KB pdf

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Housing

I welcome the witnesses to this meeting of the Equal Opportunities Committee. Perhaps it would be useful if you introduced yourselves first.

I am Mr Joshi, the chairman of Positive Action in Housing. Our presentation this morning will be conducted by Robina Qureshi, Najimee Parveen and Judith Tankel. The organisation has been working with the ethnic communities in Glasgow on housing issues, and this morning we will tell the committee about our work and the difficulties that are associated with it. First, Robina will talk about under-representation in the housing sector.

When I looked back at evidence that other groups have given to the committee, I was almost paralysed by the stress on physical evidence such as facts and figures and up-to-date research. I am not against such evidence, but our problem is the lack of accurate and up-to-date information on the housing needs and aspirations of Scotland's black and ethnic minority communities.

For example, in the Scottish house conditions survey, the specific unmet needs of black and ethnic minority people are subsumed and regarded as so statistically unimportant that they do not merit a mention in the final report. Although, over the past 10 years, there have been bits of research here and there, there has been nothing consistent to give a real indication of the housing needs of Scotland's black and ethnic minority communities. The Scottish Federation of Housing Associations provides statistics through its quarterly Scottish continuous recording system—or SCORE—report; however, those statistics apply only to lets, so the information is quite bare.

Although Positive Action in Housing is trying to address that problem by devising a national monitoring system with other black groups across Scotland, the Scottish Executive and Scottish Homes have a role in ensuring that consistent and up-to-date information is available for public and voluntary sector housing bodies.

We would also like to comment on the complete absence of thinking on the issues and concerns of our communities within the housing green paper, especially as it goes against the spirit of mainstreaming to which the Government is committed. I am sure that that will come out in our discussion.

We have made a detailed response to the housing green paper. We ask for a specific race and housing strategy to cover Scotland, which addresses issues such as area preference, ring-fenced development funding, strategic support for black housing associations, the development of larger units in multiracial areas where demand exists—including Glasgow and Edinburgh—the need for sheltered housing schemes, and support for schemes to address under-representation of black workers through training.

The committee may be aware that Scottish Homes is consulting on its race equality strategy. We are again disappointed that key aspects of the original strategy have been dismantled, including ring-fenced development funding and the appointment of a race equality officer. There is also the complete failure to support black and minority ethnic housing associations, which would have ensured a degree of empowerment for ethnic minority communities. The failure to include that strategy is the sole reason why ethnic minorities are so under-represented at every level within Scottish housing today.

We also note that while Scottish Homes is consulting on its race equality strategy and producing ideas for that strategy, it has failed its race equality targets on issues such as committee representation, mainstreaming equality and the recruitment of black workers. Scottish Homes' policy has also failed to consider black-led housing associations.

Last year we dealt with 1,300 inquiries. Of those, the biggest three problems given by people as reasons for seeking rehousing were racial attacks and harassment, which comprised 18 per cent of our cases; overcrowding, which comprised 16 per cent of our cases; and homelessness, which comprised 28 per cent of our cases. Those cases came primarily from Glasgow and Edinburgh, although we accept referrals from anywhere in Scotland. From our work with local black and minority ethnic groups, we know that those problems reflect the picture in other parts of Scotland too. There is also a need for sheltered housing for black and minority ethnic elders in Glasgow and Edinburgh. A handful of schemes have been set up to address the needs of Chinese and Jewish elders, but other ethnic groups, including Indian and Pakistani elders, still lack specific provision; that is why people are voting with their feet and not taking up access to mainstream sheltered housing. Despite the efforts of a handful of agencies, our social housing is still almost exclusively geared to the needs of a white society.

Unless the committee uses the opportunity that is presented by the housing green paper, we will continue to witness a movement that is failing in its responsibility to challenge institutionalised racism. That manifests itself—as I said earlier—in failing race targets, token participation by black groups on quangos and management committees, predominantly white work forces and an overall decrease in black tenancies at a time when housing needs in the poorest black communities have never been greater. There has been an elevenfold increase in black overcrowding in the past 10 years and a dramatic increase in racist attacks, yet racists keep their homes while black families are forced out.

Black elders are voting with their feet to avoid the alienation of mainstream sheltered housing. Homeless black families continue to be allocated housing in no-go areas, despite their protestations that they face being singled out for racist attacks. Racist attacks on some of the most voiceless people in our society are also on the increase, as 2,500 asylum seekers are dispersed to Glasgow on a derogatory and discriminatory voucher scheme in rundown council estates where no one else wants to live and which are renowned as no-go areas for visible minorities.

On a day-to-day level, black advice agencies find that their complaints of racist stereotyping are often played down or ignored altogether, despite repeated calls from black groups and housing providers alike. Scottish Homes is still not listening to calls for community empowerment through black housing associations. Despite a mass of initiatives by the Government to tackle social exclusion and promote partnership, the only black and minority ethnic-led race and housing agency in Scotland, PaiH, has not been invited to sit on the Scottish housing advisory panel alongside its mainstream national partners.

There has been much talk about the Macpherson report. The onus of that report is on organisations and institutions, including policymakers, funders, membership bodies and grassroots housing providers, to examine their processes, attitudes and behaviour and the way that racism has developed in their sector, to eliminate its impact and to show that they are not disadvantaging any section of the community.

We believe that Scottish Homes must face that situation, provide ring-fenced funding and address some of the issues that were mentioned earlier. We also believe that the Scottish Executive must publish a national housing policy that is geared to the needs and aspirations of a multiracial society and require every public and social landlord to implement a black and minority ethnic housing strategy with proper targets and penalties for non-implementation.

Finally, I will say again that we deserve our place round the table of the Scottish housing advisory panel.

I have been asked to speak briefly on under-representation in the housing sector. I am on the management committee of PAIH, but I am also the director of Positive Action for Training in Housing, which was set up to address issues of under-representation in housing employment. The rationale behind PATH is that the research and statistics that are collated about black and minority ethnic people highlight disadvantage and inequalities. The percentage of black and minority ethnic people who are out of work and looking for work is more than double that of white communities. Even with qualifications, people in black and minority ethnic communities are still more likely to be unemployed. The unemployment rate of people with degrees in black communities is more than twice that of white people with the same qualifications.

In-depth analysis of income data for black households reveals alarming facts. Black and minority ethnic communities are four times more likely to live in poverty than white families. There are high unemployment levels amongst men, low levels of economic activity by women, and low pay. That all contributes to a situation in which 60 per cent of families fall below the unofficial poverty line set by half the average households.

On housing, Scottish Homes' evaluation of its race equality activity showed that of the associations that undertake ethnic monitoring, minority ethnic composition of housing association management committees fell from 3.2 per cent to 1.1 per cent in 1996-97. Black staff employed by housing associations rose from 0.4 per cent to 1.1 per cent, however those figures do not reflect the fact that in multiracial areas the figure is still exceedingly low in comparison with the composition of the community.

PaiH, in its response to the Scottish Homes review of the ethnic minority housing strategy for Glasgow in 1995-98, recommended that Scottish Homes set targets of up to 5 per cent of black and minority ethnic workers across Glasgow and much higher in multiracial areas. Scottish Homes also set itself the target of increasing the percentage of black employees from 0.4 per cent to 1.4 per cent. However, that has not happened—in May 1998, the figure was 0.8 per cent.

In relation to access of black communities to housing association and Scottish Homes stock, targets of 1.25 per cent were set to directly benefit black and minority ethnic communities. However, in 1997-98 there was a reduction in the proportion of new houses that were let to black households from 1 per cent to 0.2 per cent.

It is clear that, for under-representation to be tackled effectively, ethnic monitoring must be carried out on all aspects of housing sector provision. Targets must be set for the housing sector in relation to the employment of black staff and membership of management committees.

I am on the management committee of PaiH, but I am also on the management committee of the Glasgow Jewish Housing Association. Before that, housing was provided through the Jewish welfare, in which I was a social worker for many years. That was before there were policies regarding ethnic minorities. We saw a need; people needed the houses; and in those days it cost about £200 to get a really nice flat. We collected around the community and provided that money. Our work grew from there. Glasgow City Council was most understanding; when it knocked down the Gorbals, we shared the price of providing flats. That is how we started, and we just got on with it. I have the experience of knowing what our tenants want and need, but that is not provided by any organisation that is not ethnic-minority led. I feel that very strongly.

We have taken a twin-track approach, providing services to both the Jewish community and the wider community. We have just started a project with the Chinese, indigenous and Jewish communities all working together in Battlefield. That project is working wonderfully, because the Jewish community, as an ethnic minority community, knows what people want—we are able to provide what they want and we listen to them. Other people do not listen. Scottish Homes' idea of what people want is to devise a policy, take it around focus groups and get people on to management committees, but that is not what people want; Najimee Parveen just gave you the statistics that prove that.

I am terribly upset with Scottish Homes. Who makes the policy—the Scottish Parliament or Scottish Homes, which says, "You will do what we want?" Scottish Homes imposes policies and gives out little droplets of funding—just enough to keep people quiet—for business plans. However, it does not give out enough funding to pay for a director of a black and ethnic minority-led housing association. It calms down the situation, but it does not permit ethnic minority-led housing associations to flourish. Such associations must, and will, come.

Apart from our mainstream housing, we provide sheltered housing and extra care housing. I cannot begin to imagine how someone from an Asian or Chinese community could possibly function in the average residential, sheltered or extra care housing situation. They are isolated, they speak the wrong language, their feeding habits are wrong and the things that they need, such as washing facilities, are not provided. People in general do not understand those problems—you have to come from one of the minority communities to be able to understand what people from those communities want. It is so colonial—I hate to use that word—and patronising for people to say, "This is what you want and this is what we are giving you." Only people from the communities fully understand what they want. Things must change and I just wish that they would change sooner, so that all those people who are suffering, needlessly, would no longer suffer. So often, people from ethnic minority communities get put into somewhere where there are no other people from ethnic minority communities around them—they will be the only dark face, which is upsetting. People feel isolated and frightened.

When we rehouse people into our sheltered housing complex, their reaction is absolutely astonishing. Members of the committee will not know this, but anti-Semitic graffiti is constantly being put up in the tenement flats, which makes people nervous. Three or four of the people whom we rehoused were frightened to go out—they were nervous wrecks, but now they are happy, satisfied citizens. Such a service can be provided only by ethnic minority-led housing associations, and the sooner that such associations are established, the better.

Members must understand how difficult the situation is. Scottish Homes will not support those associations. As I said, they give little drops of funding for business plans, but unless funding is provided to pay for a qualified director, one cannot run a housing association these days. The days of people coming along as volunteers, and putting in whatever time they have, are over—one cannot run a professional housing association like that and still be able to meet the standards that Scottish Homes, quite properly, requires.

If members have any questions, I will be happy to answer them. I feel that the policy has failed and we must listen to people. Tenant representatives are not on committees—their language skills are not wonderful and they are frightened to speak up. They will speak up only if the organisation is run by their own people. We have proved that ethnic minority-led housing associations will not produce ghettoisation. Our next project will be for the Asian community—why should people not be able to do what they want? I am sorry to sound so passionate, but I feel very passionate about this.

That is okay—we do not mind people coming along and sounding passionate.

Do you want to say anything, Mr Joshi?

No—we will take questions from members.

I will pick up on what Judith Tankel said about the building requirements for developing sheltered housing in particular. Robina Qureshi spoke about ring-fenced development funding. Could you expand a little on that? What reactions have you had to your proposals for such funding?

In the original strategy for 1995-98, Scottish Homes had a policy for specific, ring-fenced funding. That followed on from the work of the Housing Corporation in supporting black and ethnic minority communities in England, where there had been a surge in housing partnerships that involved ethnic minority communities. Ring-fenced funding means that a specific amount of money will be earmarked to address ethnic minority housing needs. For example, as Judith Tankel mentioned, there are specific design, religious and dietary needs that sheltered housing for ethnic elders must address. If we had ring-fenced funding, those issues could be addressed; we could also address the housing needs of larger families. If a specific amount of money is identified and earmarked to address ethnic minority housing needs, housing associations and Scottish Homes will become accountable for that funding. There is a clear need for new developments, and earmarked funds would address long-term disadvantage and historical discrimination.

Did you say that there was no mention of ring-fenced development funding in the green paper?

There is no mention of it in the latest Scottish Homes consultation document on its race equality strategy, which leaves it up to housing providers to claim money in the name of ethnic minorities.

Thank you for your presentations. It is timely that you are here, because we are trying to respond to the Scottish Homes document and any day now we will receive the next instalment of the Executive's housing policy. Your comments will help us to respond to those documents.

You said that the green paper was colour blind. You have covered most of the territory, but what would you like to be in the next stage of that paper, which will be the last instalment before the bill is introduced after summer?

The problem is that the green paper gives no consideration whatever to race equality issues. It is called a green paper, but it is colour blind—that is the contradiction.

We would have liked the housing needs of black and ethnic minority communities to be assessed separately for the first time. You must remember that, since the 1950s and 1960s, when the first large number of immigrants came to Scotland from places such as India, Pakistan and other countries, those people's housing requirements have not been considered; nor has there been any consideration of what housing providers should do, both in relation to the provision of housing and to tackling problems such as racial harassment.

We are still dealing with council estates where there are almost no-go areas. The housing green paper could have addressed that situation. It could have addressed the situation whereby if you are involuntarily homeless and claim housing from the local authority, you are given one offer only—often of accommodation in a no-go area—and it is difficult to get the housing provider to revoke that offer. The bottom line is that people do not want to live in areas where they will be subjected to violence, terrorism and possibly attacks and murder.

The primary consideration for the poorest and most marginalised people who come to organisations such as Positive Action in Housing is the safety of the area. People will turn round and say, "Give us two rooms—just give us a safe area." The housing green paper had a chance to address that, and I do not know whether, in the final stage, there will be separate consideration of housing for ethnic minority communities. If there is not, there certainly should be and the Equal Opportunities Committee should put pressure on the Executive to give that consideration. The Government talks about mainstreaming, but where is the mainstreaming of race equality in the housing green paper and the forthcoming housing bill?

Positive Action in Housing made a number of recommendations in its response to the green paper. Those recommendations include: development of national performance indicators on race equality; development of a national policy on ethnic monitoring across all public and voluntary sector housing provision, inclusion of the transfer of responsibilities under section 71 of the Race Relations act 1976 in any transfer of responsibilities to new landlords; an agreed national strategy for joint working on racial harassment; a review of national and local policies on homelessness and how those policies specifically affect black and minority ethnic communities, and so on. I know that the Commission for Racial Equality also responded to the green paper and I suppose that time will tell whether any of those recommendations were taken on board.

I am sure that the green paper should refer to equal opportunities and to support from Scottish Homes for ethnic minority-led housing associations, not just for white-led housing associations. If an organisation can be viable, why should it be denied funding, as is happening at the moment, because that organisation is black-led, or ethnic minority-led, rather than white-led?

Why do you think that your recommendations have been rejected? It would be useful if you could speak about the feedback that you received. I consider your suggestions and proposals to be fairly reasonable. Have you been told why they have been rejected, as seems to be the case?

Could you also speak about private landlords, about whom there is little in the green paper, apart from some limited reference to houses in multiple occupation. I know that Shelter is concerned about that and thinks that we should consider toughening up our ability to prosecute landlords who either harass tenants or evict them unlawfully. I know that you concentrated on the public sector and housing associations, but do you have comments about the relationship between private sector landlords and ethnic minority communities?

I want to give you, as the Equal Opportunities Committee, a grass-roots feel for the situation. Public sector agencies would like to be seen to be addressing equality and practising social inclusion, so if they can get one black face on a committee, that is, in terms of numbers, a significant percentage—they can say, "This is a success." However, it is not a success from the point of view of the people who are facing the problems of exclusion from power, representation and housing—the worst cases are the ones that are lying on our books for years and are not being addressed. Is that because we have an all-white Scottish Parliament? I do not know, but extra pressure must be levied, if not for that reason alone, then to make sure that concerns are addressed, not in a tokenistic manner, but in terms of what really affects communities and what will make a difference. Right now, percentage points in Scottish Homes policy documents are defined as successful, but the policies are not making a difference for people on the ground.

Respect must be shown to those agencies, including ours, that are not being adequately consulted by bodies such as Scottish Homes. We are a front-line agency on race and housing and we cover the whole of Scotland. We are the only agency that does that, but we have rarely been consulted by Scottish Homes or involved in the development of policy documents such as the race equality strategy. That is an important issue. We are talking about social inclusion, so why are black organisations being excluded?

Would you go as far as saying that some of those public agencies are guilty of institutional racism?

There is no doubt about that. Anyone who says that those agencies are not guilty of it does not see what is happening on the ground. You have to question why those agencies are not addressing the issues on the ground. There is a wealth of evidence from black groups and organisations across the country. The question is whether the public sector agencies are guilty of institutionalised racism by using numbers.

Do you think that there should be more powers to deal with unlawful eviction or discrimination by private landlords? That issue is largely ignored by the green paper.

The housing green paper should have addressed it, particularly as a significant percentage of the poorest section of ethnic minority communities relies on private sector landlords. Those people will be stuck with high rents and will not have access to the full amount of housing benefit. Families who are deemed as overcrowded by the rent registration office are refused housing benefit on the grounds that the rent is wrong for their accommodation and that the accommodation is not suitable for their needs. Those issues all come down to housing planning policies, which have failed to provide for people who have larger families. More consideration should be given to the issue of private landlords.

There is a range of issues to do with the private sector. Over the past couple of years, the Commission for Racial Equality has had to deal with a case in which estate agents have been accused of not wishing to sell a house to someone from the black and minority ethnic communities. That was a big issue in Scotland but no one has addressed it in terms of the implications or what agencies can do in response to clear direct or indirect discrimination. It was a landmark case, but it is not being discussed in detail by any agency, as far as I can tell.

The Macpherson report brought the issue of institutional racism to the fore in Scotland for white communities, but black communities have debated the concept of institutional racism and what it means for them for years. The report highlighted institutional racism for white communities—people are now looking at action plans in response to the Macpherson report—but black agencies are concerned that there will be paper policies and that there will not be a lot of action on the real issues that arise for communities.

May I address the private sector issue? Many in the ethnic minority community face difficulties in the private sector, depending on who they are dealing with. A white landlord may not want coloured people living in his house. That is a problem. That is why the ethnic communities have looked at housing as an investment. Students have picked up many of the properties for private let. There are problems of exorbitant rents being charged. This is an area that needs to be addressed if there is to be fairness and equality.

Scottish Homes is used to dealing with a number of large housing associations—it likes to deal with them and it favours them. However, the cake cannot only be cut up into so many slices. I do not know how encouraging Scottish Homes is to new housing organisations. I know that Scottish Homes likes to have economies of scale, which is perfectly understandable when there is a large number of units. When an organisation with which I am involved wanted to do a project, it was told that another organisation was the favoured one in the district and so should forget it. That should not happen. Any ethnic minority housing association will be a new one, but will Scottish Homes want to encourage it? I know that it will not.

I do not know who will answer this question, but I will put it to Robina, who talked about the police tackling harassment and racism in housing. I want to ask about local authorities and housing associations. If the training and awareness of officers in local authorities and housing associations are not adequate, there will still be a problem, because even if the policies are the right ones they will not be implemented properly. How far away is a good level of training and development on racial awareness? Do you think that the housing stock transfers are going to offer any solution or will there still be a problem for that type of development?

I do not see how the housing stock transfer will make any difference in raising awareness. Is that what you are asking?

Is there not potential in breaking the situation down to housing associations with greater awareness of local needs?

I am not sure that I understand the question.

This is a big issue and I am not sure that it will be addressed by housing stock transfer. We do quite a lot of work with housing associations and housing association management committees. Management committees consist of lay people who are not necessarily familiar with race and equality issues. Such committees are made up of people who are active in the community but who are not necessarily aware of issues relating to racial harassment. A lot of work will need to be done with management committees and with the staff of housing associations.

Positive Action in Housing is doing a lot of work with housing associations on racial harassment. As members know, we have produced a report. Since then, we have run training sessions and I am delighted to say that many of the housing associations have sent people for training on such issues. There is a long way to go, but at least a positive step has been taken. We are offering the training continuously.

The training would not necessarily be on race awareness. We are not interested in attitudinal training. We focus on training that will address people's behaviour within organisations, how they support and deal positively with people who are facing racial harassment, how they examine race equality issues and how they approach direct and indirect discrimination within the housing association where they work. We are not particularly interested in training around issues of race awareness because that does not always work. We want people to consider whether their behaviour or the policies and procedures in the housing sector operate to the disadvantage of black communities and how that can be addressed.

However, there is a definite culture in the public sector and the housing association sector in which it is thought that racial harassment is used as an excuse for a better house. That culture is pervasive. That is why I do not think that the housing stock transfer will make a difference—it will be the same culture. That is how far we have still to go.

Robina, on page 6 of your submission you say that one of the difficulties is the absence of figures disaggregated according to ethnic origin. Would you agree that, in the absence of such figures, it is difficult to get the information that we need and that all we are left with are assertions about housing need for people from ethnic minority backgrounds? What kind of research is needed to get a baseline figure?

As I said, it has been very difficult to get hold of information; we have to rely on our own monitoring of the 1,300 cases that we dealt with in 1999, our work with other black and minority ethnic groups, anecdotal evidence or bits of research that have been carried out because they were commissioned or a pot of money was made available. That is not effective. We would like information on the level of under-representation of black committee members, staff and tenants within housing organisations so that we could make comparisons with local housing needs and the national picture. We also want to know the extent of overcrowding and problems of racial harassment. There is a high level of under-reporting to institutions by clients, so information would be difficult to gather. We would want to know the extent of black homelessness and compare that locally.

Those are just some of the figures that we need. However, no professional approach is being taken at the moment and that needs to be addressed urgently. National and local figures must be available to allow agencies such as ours and politicians to access that information, make reasonable judgments and help housing advisers to address local housing need.

You say:

“Black and ethnic minority communities face: a severe shortage of suitable housing in multiracial areas; severe over-crowding; disproportionately greater levels of homelessness than within the white communities . . . a high projected need for sheltered housing for black and minority ethnic older people".

I suggest that all those are assertions from your research, rather than baseline information with which everyone from Scottish Homes to the Scottish Executive to Positive Action in Housing could agree.

The assertion is made not from Positive Action in Housing's research, but from research that has been carried out by various organisations in Scotland, such as the Scottish ethnic minorities research unit, which has done a lot of work on race and housing. Recently, the Scottish Executive published "Researching Ethnic Minorities in Scotland: report of a workshop held on 2 March". That report contains the same information. I agree that there is no overall baseline information.

That is my point. Until that baseline research is incorporated into the housing statistics, there will always be disagreement. Should we not first reach agreement about the research and monitoring that needs to be done?

The problem is that mainstream housing agencies are not getting the picture of black housing needs because people are not going to those agencies. People are turning to black organisations and locally or nationally based minority ethnic groups for help with housing problems. We refer that information to the housing agencies. That is how the information is being passed on. What they do with the information and what we do with it are two different things. In the majority of cases, housing agencies subsume it, forget it and file it away. There are some examples of housing providers working well, but generally they do not. For example, Glasgow City Council reported that the number of racial incidents in its area from January to March increased from four to six. In that same period, we dealt with about 100 racial incidents in the Glasgow area. Even though we work directly with Glasgow City Council, there is a clear difference.

We pull together statistics from various research sources, including the Scottish ethnic minorities research unit, as Najimee said. However, the Scottish Executive and Scottish Homes are not taking a strategic approach. They should be giving us the information. Without that information we are working blind on the basis of anecdotal evidence from black organisations and those agencies that have their finger on the pulse.

I think that you are agreeing that we need that kind of information as a baseline.

We have recommended that in our response to the green paper. However, that does not mean to say that we should not use the information that we have at the moment to argue our point. Every agency should address the issue.

Good morning and thank you for coming to speak to us. My concept of the problems that you are highlighting is that an ethnic or minority group would be better included within a cohesive group in a locality. You seem to be suggesting that you would prefer individual localities to be set aside specifically for ethnic or minority groups. I would have thought that that would aggravate the situation and create a distinction between the indigenous population and the ethnic minority.

We are not saying that. We are lobbying for empowerment of all communities, including people from ethnic minorities. Housing provision has been made available for people with disabilities, older people and other people with unmet needs, and we are asking for the same thing. We are not asking for specific localities—we already have ghettos. We do not want no-go areas. We want the colour-blind mainstream provision to be complemented by specific housing associations with minority ethnic management committees that will address the needs of all communities. That is the specific definition of an ethnic minority housing association.

We are not seeking to be isolated and have the unit to ourselves. We want integration. We want to live in harmony with the community but we also want to be recognised as a group that has special needs.

If an area were designated specifically for the housing needs that you are suggesting, that would signify that the resources had been supplied only for a minority group. Why not have the housing need dealt with in the community in a way that was not distinct?

Our proposal would deal with the needs of everyone in the community. It would prioritise the allocations policy so that issues such as racial harassment would be considered, as would the provision of housing for larger families. It would deal with concerns that have been left to the side for many years.

In the 10 years that we have been lobbying on this issue, overcrowding in the black communities has multiplied by 15 times in Scotland. Racial harassment has multiplied as well. This year has shown a dramatic increase of racial incidents on the year before. Homelessness has increased. Those problems arise primarily because such needs are not being addressed by the mainstream policies and planning systems.

In a typical example of an ethnic minority-led housing association in London, 56 per cent is made up of various ethnic minorities and the other 44 per cent is white. That is a good example of an equal opportunities housing association. It provides for people in housing need.

Robina Qureshi has made the point that I was going to make about the misunderstandings that exist about ethnic minority-led housing associations. I should declare an interest as a member of the management committee of Apna Ghar housing association. We intend to say something on this subject in our response to the Scottish Homes race equality policy. Page 6 of the policy document says that Scottish Homes supports the further development of registered social landlords for minority ethnic-led housing where those are the most appropriate means of meeting identified needs. What would be your response to that claim by Scottish Homes?

That it should put its money where its mouth is.

I would ask to see the costing and a strategy. How will ethnic minority communities be involved? How will it be ensured that everyone in that community is involved rather than a few hand-picked members? If we could see a detailed and costed strategy, rather than a claim to support the idea, we would be happy.

Scottish Homes carried out an evaluation of its race equality activity, which showed that a number of external agencies considered the establishment of a minority ethnic-led housing association to be key to judging the agency's commitment to addressing race and housing issues. However, among Scottish Homes staff, there appear to be varying interpretations of current policy. That ambiguity might leave the agency open to accusations of unfair treatment or discrimination. The situation is worsened by the fact that the agency's race equality policy does not specify how the issue of black-led housing associations will be approached.

In 1993, the CRE's report on its investigation into housing associations and racial equality said that, unless Scottish Homes provided support to black and minority ethnic housing associations, in the terms that I have described, there would be doubts about the agency's record on racial equality. I want it on the record that we have serious doubts about Scottish Homes' record on racial equality and its ability to deliver on racial equality without consulting agencies such as ours and involving us in an honest debate on the development of a race equality strategy. That has not happened. Scottish Homes is consulting on something that it has already made a decision on. We are not involved in the process. That is why, 10 years on, we are still talking about the same problems.

One of the fundamental problems is that the situation has not been monitored. However, we will, I hope, be able to talk about what we have heard this morning. Would you say that the three main problems that we should be highlighting are overcrowding, homelessness and attacks and harassment?

Yes, along with the unmet housing needs of ethnic elders.

It is important to mention that asylum seekers coming into Scotland are in the same position as the parents of my generation were in the 1950s and 1960s. People assume that they will go back home, but a significant percentage will stay in this country. How will their needs be addressed? They are living in the areas in which our families do not want to live. They are being singled out for harassment and attacks. Families tell us that their children are not going to school because of the attacks that they have to face. That is a new hornets' nest to deal with.

Obviously, your perspective is not being taken on board. It seems reasonable that your organisation should be represented on the housing advisory panel. Have you had any feedback on why you are not being involved in that body?

No. We seem to be invisible to the people involved.

There is a black and minority ethnic housing association that is trying to get itself off the ground but cannot get funding from Scottish Homes. It has provided a business plan, but the process has come to a dead halt. No funding is forthcoming. Scottish Homes could fund it but it is not doing so.

Could you give us some details of that housing association? Perhaps the committee could make representations to Scottish Homes on the matter. Are there similar housing associations?

A while ago, the management committee of Apna Ghar was given money to produce a business plan, but that was it. It cannot get any more funding and is unable to function as a housing association as it does not have a director. People volunteer to help out, but a director is essential. The organisation has a lot of support—Malcolm Chisholm is involved, as am I—but it cannot get funding.

Groups in Aberdeen and Edinburgh have found themselves in the same situation. The situation is not too depressing, as the organisations are not floundering. This committee could bring some influence to bear, however. We talk about social inclusion but we need to think about ways of integrating black and ethnic minority communities into Scottish housing. Groups such as Apna Ghar are trying to get off the ground but are not getting the support that they need from Scottish Homes.

I want to reassure John Munro that Apna Ghar will provide houses for the whole community, not only for black and ethnic minority people. However, it will be able to take account of the needs of ethnic minority people.

The concept would be appropriate and inclusive?

Definitely. What is important is that it will have an understanding of the needs of ethnic minority people that many people do not have. One must also bear in mind the housing needs of the elders, as Robina said.

Excuse my ignorance about that body—will you spell its name?

A-P-N-A G-H-A-R. It is Urdu for "our house". Those are the only two words of Urdu I know.

Is the organisation based in a particular area?

It is not based anywhere. We divide our meetings between Glasgow and Edinburgh. There are some high-powered people on the management committee, but we have found it impossible to get anywhere. We have been struggling for some years. Now that we have re-formed we are determined that we will get somewhere.

My experience is that, as a result of a transfer of stock from a local authority or a divestment of stock from Scottish Homes, tenants either register with an existing housing association or form a new one, which is given recognition by Scottish Homes. Is Apna Ghar a Scotland-wide organisation? Is there identified stock that it would take over or is it just agency based?

Apna Ghar would have stock if we could get it and if we had funding to run it. We cannot just take over stock—we must have a director, and the director would need a secretary. A considerable amount of administration is necessary so there must be paid staff—the organisation could not work without them. We cannot, however, get the money for staff.

I would like further clarification. When I read in your report about the necessity for black-led housing associations, I understood that to mean conventional housing associations. I also understood that there might be areas of Glasgow, Dundee and so on in which there are clusters of local authority stock that the black and ethnic communities might feel they could apply to manage and for which they could register as an association. I thought that that was what you were getting at.

Three or four years ago, I was at a housing conference that Robina Qureshi organised. A gentleman from Scottish Homes came up to me and said, "It's great—we're going to transfer all this stock to Apna Ghar." The transfer never materialised, but if it had, someone would have had to run it.

Was such a transfer the original intention?

That was what Scottish Homes told us. I could tell you the name of the gentleman who told me that, but I will not do so here.

Will you comment on the co-operation the organisation has had in its dealings with local authorities? You mentioned Glasgow and Dundee several times in your evidence—are you involved with other local authorities?

We are most closely involved with Glasgow City Council and the City of Edinburgh Council, primarily regarding the problems of families who live in severely over-crowded conditions and of people living in peripheral estates where they face racist attacks day in and day out. We try to have such people transferred to places in which they will not face harassment. We work daily on individual cases.

Our problem with all local authorities is the issue of like-for-like management transfers, in which people who have faced racist attacks are offered places in similarly hard-to-let areas where they are subject to further harassment because of the colour of their skin and because of their visibility. That problem is difficult to get across to local authorities. About seven local authorities, including Glasgow, North Lanarkshire, East Dunbartonshire, West Dunbartonshire and Argyll and Bute, are affiliated to us.

In your daily dealings, would you describe the co-operation that you get from local authorities as better or the same as that which you get from Scottish Homes and other housing associations?

How would you define that co-operation?

You said that you work closely with Glasgow City Council, for example. I am aware that you have made representations on funding and so on in the past. Have those representations been successful? It appears from your evidence that you do not feel that Scottish Homes has taken your concerns on board.

We get more co-operation from local authorities than we do from Scottish Homes, which needs to learn that it must consult openly and honestly with black and ethnic minority groups, no matter how inarticulate they are. By involving and engaging those groups, Scottish Homes will be able to inform its policy. If it can do that, it will have a hint of grass roots in its policy. At the moment it does not—what comes across is that it is making the policy up as it goes along.

In relation to the housing bill that will come before the Scottish Parliament, it is important—while Positive Action in Housing is present—to make the point that we should try to ensure that there is black representation in our consideration of and formal consultation on the bill. I hope that Positive Action in Housing will be involved in that—it is vital that that voice is heard.

Michael McMahon mentioned stock transfers. One of my worries is that Glasgow, which already has a shortage of housing—especially suitable housing—stands to lose between 15,000 and 20,000 homes as a result of stock transfer. I am concerned that because there will be fewer homes to be distributed, some of the problems that PAIH has identified will not be alleviated but compounded.

That will be so especially if the right to buy—to which housing associations are totally opposed because it takes stock out of the public sector—is removed.

I do not think that that type of wholesale stock transfer will help us.

You say that when families are offered unsuitable housing they might be subject to racist attack. Does Robina Qureshi agree that a general problem for homeless families—whether they are from a black or ethnic minority background or, indeed, from a white background—is that they are offered housing in the worst areas? They are offered housing that is in an appalling condition, often in areas where there is crime, drug dealing and vandalism.

I agree that homeless people are offered the worst housing. I do not agree that they face the same experience whether they are black or white once they are allocated housing. I stress that the primary consideration of people who come to our door is what kind of area they will live in. Whatever community they come from, they are visible minorities. They are not looking for luxury or choice; they are looking out of necessity for a place to live. They need to be near multiracial communities where they will not be singled out or targeted.

Neither my colleagues nor I find the kinds of areas that are on offer to homeless people acceptable. In housing departments there is a complete lack of appreciation of racist attacks. The issue has been likened to putting Catholics in a Protestant area—that is the closest comparison I can give the committee. The comparison might not be exact but there are similarities, in that those from ethnic minorities who are homed in such areas are singled out and targeted for harassment by racists who pick on people because of their visibility and their different dress, language, culture and colour. The situation is more aggravated when someone is faced with moving to an area that is not only worse, but could endanger their life or the lives of their family.

I will take a final question from Johann Lamont and then the committee will decide how to take the matter forward.

I am interested in the previous point about people being safe. There is an obvious tension there, because we do not want to ghettoise people. There is also a danger in presuming that racist attacks and attitudes exist only in poor areas. The example that was given of the estate agent shows that racism is also an issue in well-off communities.

Tommy Sheridan mentioned housing stock transfer. There are debates about the figures and about the benefits that stock transfer will bring. If the stock transfer goes ahead, one of the issues with which people will have to wrestle, particularly in Glasgow, is the fact that the statutory responsibility for housing the homeless and people with specific needs will remain with the local authority. The local authority will have to negotiate delivery of that service with local housing organisations. What can witnesses tell us about meeting the needs of black and ethnic minority communities once responsibility for housing the homeless is devolved to local areas? What are the key elements that should remain with the local authority and which the authorities should write into local agreements and contracts?

One of the recommendations that we made was that section 71 responsibilities should also be transferred. We hope that local authorities will continue to promote equality of opportunity and to eliminate racial discrimination. Committee members would have to examine the key aspects of the Race Relations Act 1976 as they relate to the housing sector. There are a number of other recommendations that we want to make, mainly about how to avoid direct and indirect discrimination. There is a code of practice for rented housing that makes a number of recommendations about racial harassment, access to housing, quality of housing and service provision. There is a range of materials that can be used when addressing the issue.

Obviously the committee cannot do so now, but it would be useful to get involved at an early stage. If discussions are ongoing and such matters are being examined, you could begin to write things into deals now, as they are being done. That would give your organisation and ethnic minority communities an opportunity to be influential.

On safe communities, we do not want to create the impression that racist attacks happen only in peripheral and hard-to-let areas. Racism expresses itself in different ways. If someone went into one of the white enclaves in our cities, they might find it difficult to buy a house—there might not be racist attacks, but racism would still be there. People come to see us not because they do not want to live in such areas, but because they do not want to be singled out because they do not live in multiracial areas. It is symptomatic of living in deprived areas where there is a lot of poverty that people are singled out for direct physical racist attacks. That is what people are most concerned about.

Thank you. Does Subhash Joshi want to say anything before we finish?

No, other than that we are grateful to the committee for giving us the opportunity to present ourselves today.

Thanks. The committee will now discuss how we take the matter forward. There are two issues, the first of which is the committee's response to the Scottish Homes race equality policy. The committee has not been invited to respond, but I suspect that members will want to. We will agree to respond.

Secondly, there is the housing bill, which we have a little more time for. As well as hearing from Jackie Baillie at our meeting on 4 July, I suggest that we invite Scottish Homes. The timing for that meeting is quite tight, so the committee would have to be very focused. It would be difficult to respond to the document without having Scottish Homes along. If anybody wants to get in touch with Positive Action in Housing before 4 July to pick up any points that have been raised, I assume that they are at liberty to do so. Is that right?

Yes.

Thank you. I hope that you are happy with that course of action.

Yes. Thank you very much.

I hope that Scottish Homes will be able to send someone to meet the committee. If it is necessary to have a special meeting, I will have to get in touch with people.

The race group has the matter on its agenda for next Tuesday. I hope to pull together a report for the meeting on 4 July.

That would be very useful. We could finalise the report after we have taken evidence from Scottish Homes.