The next item on our agenda is our third taking stock exercise. Today, the committee will deal with race issues.
Thank you for your congratulations. I have indeed worked closely with the committee and I hope to continue that working relationship in my new role. Equalities will continue to be a significant part of my portfolio. The First Minister has said to me that he wants equalities to be central to the work that we do. The partnership with the committee is very much part of that effort.
Good morning and congratulations. I am interested in your approach to consultation and joint working. You will not be surprised to hear that I am interested in what has been done to ensure that the approach is not simply top down, but bottom up. What work has been done to consult and work with people at grass-roots level? The committee has heard about the need to build the infrastructure of the voluntary sector and of the black and ethnic minority voluntary sector in particular. I am interested in your approach to consultation. How will people be brought on board?
Cathy Peattie has raised many issues. Consultation across the spectrum of people to whom we should talk is a broad issue. That spectrum ranges from young people, whom we may consult about school issues, to people who have ethnic minority backgrounds, whom we may consult about their experience of what we do and what they can tell us about some issues.
There are two forms of consultation. One is from the centre, through which we take a slightly more focused approach, and the other involves mainstreaming consultation throughout the Executive. They are complementary and both are important. For example, the education department recently published work on encouraging participation and consultation with young people, and the "Equal Futures" conference was held. All that has been aimed at targeting specific matters.
I understand that that is difficult to do and I did not ask my questions in order to be difficult, but the issues are important. I am sure that the minister appreciates that if the Executive can engage with such organisations, they will have much to give of their experience and understanding.
There are a number of responses to that. Cathy Peattie makes serious points. We know how hard it can be—some of the organisations concerned can have terrible burdens put on them. Generally, we tackle the issue by ensuring that we raise equality in all forms and at every opportunity. It is not just about ticking one box—issues keep coming back and must be responded to rather than simply got off the agenda.
I am sure that you will agree that, in many cases, the white able-bodied community is not involved in those partnerships.
Yes.
There is therefore a lot of work to be done to ensure that mainstreaming takes place at community level. Is there anything that the Executive can do to ensure that such equality issues are on the local agenda? The money is coming from the Executive and there is good practice in the work that is being developed by the Executive, but how can we ensure that the funding and good practice get to the local level?
I take that point. The problem with the equality agenda in the past was that it tended to pit one group against another. We need to get away from that situation, in which groups compete for attention or resources. We are trying to avoid that and to develop a broader analysis of inequality and how it feeds in. It is not a matter of saying that responsibility for inequality in poor communities rests with the poor people themselves; we hope to deliver a much deeper analysis.
Is that happening? Are organisations being told that if they do not publish equality plans or prove that all their policies and service delivery adhere to equal opportunities policies, their funding will be jeopardised?
To be honest, we are not yet being as direct as that. I will ask Yvonne Strachan to say a wee bit about the race equality plans in a moment, because they have a slightly different resonance in the context of more general mainstreaming and equality work.
The social inclusion network, which involves the Executive and external bodies, is addressing the direct connection between social inclusion issues and equality. One of its sub-groups is specifically considering mainstreaming equality. How equality relates to the social inclusion agenda is of key importance. The same applies to the work that is being done on partnerships.
The minister is right to say that in many ways our aspirations are ahead of our practice. However, the race equality plans will provide us with an opportunity to match aspirations with practice. In effect, we are required to do that. We have made progress in some areas. For example, we are further ahead on voluntary grants than on some other issues. However, funding and equality will not be linked overnight, particularly in bodies that have established funding regimes. As Yvonne Strachan and the minister said, we can, through the race equality plans and other work, make a start on that. However, it will take time to bed in new regimes.
Do you know of any examples of good practice in that area?
There are examples of good practice in the voluntary sector. The equalities agenda, and race equality in particular, are also starting to become more firmly embedded in the work of the health sector. In the health sector we are not dealing with a direct grant scheme, but large sums of money are invested in health. We expect increasingly to see evidence that race equality issues are being addressed.
I, too, congratulate the minister on her appointment.
Schools are the main service that affects children and young people. Work is being done on issues relating to the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000. In education authorities, there has been an emphasis on the need to promote racial equality. Work is also being done in schools. As members will know, the national debate on education will focus on equality. Priorities 3 and 4 in the debate relate to inclusion, equality, values and citizenship.
The minister has covered most of what has been done. I mentioned earlier a conference that the Executive, the Commission for Racial Equality and Save the Children sponsored last year. Some very powerful messages came out of that conference, which focused on children's experiences of racism. Children were given an opportunity to share their experiences, which are not always the same as adults' experiences. A week or two ago, we published guidance on developing consultation with children on best practice in this area. As that guidance becomes more prevalent, it will become helpful. It is interesting that such a key area came out of the submissions that you received on the taking stock exercise. We must think carefully about how we progress in responding to that need.
I want to explore that further. Will you comment on whether the Zero Tolerance Trust's respect project will be rolled out? That is part of what you mentioned in your answer. It is important to note that children and young people have said at events for them that they feel that citizenship should be part of the school curriculum and the culture. Will you comment specifically on the consultation response that we received from Children in Scotland, which stressed the importance of visual representations of the diversity within Scotland's population? Is the Executive doing anything to support that kind of approach? Children in Scotland said:
Elaine Smith's question was as difficult as her questions usually are. In principle, we are supportive of the respect project pilot, which has been evaluated positively. We are committed to rolling that out in schools. I have been in dialogue with other ministers—notably Andy Kerr and Cathy Jamieson—about how we will do that. We have also had discussions on the matter with the Zero Tolerance Trust. We must hold discussions with the education authorities, because the curriculum in Scotland is slightly different and we cannot just change it overnight. We are considering different models for change. We have agreed that, in the first instance, the matter will go to the education authorities, after which we will assess how to pursue the work. I will continue to talk to Zero Tolerance about that. Elaine Smith is right to raise the issue in the context of bullying and how young people experience it.
I could not ask for more than that. I am glad that you have given such a commitment and I hope that the committee will be told of the outcome.
I am sure that the committee will ask about that.
When, toward the end of November, education authorities and schools produce their policies on racial equality, will the Scottish Executive and the Commission for Racial Equality examine those policies, or will the CRE alone examine them?
The policies are not approved formally by the Executive or by the CRE, although we will certainly want to look at them. Initially, the education authority has primary responsibility for them. The CRE and the Executive will give proactive consideration to what comes out of those plans and schemes more generally.
You say that the policies are not approved formally, but I presume that they must reach a certain standard in demonstrating a commitment to racial equality.
The CRE guidance on what will be expected will be quite clear. The CRE will work closely with education authorities to ensure that such a commitment is embedded. I am sure that a learning process will take place as the process progresses, but the CRE will work to ensure that a certain standard is reached.
Good morning, minister. I reach across the party divide to congratulate you on your appointment.
I remember the committee report clearly because I remember the debate on it in the Parliament, and I am well aware of the disappointment in the Executive's formal response to it. I hope that I tried to indicate in my reply to the Parliament that the Executive's approach and attitude had changed—I am trying to be careful about what I say. We were very aware of the disappointment that was expressed by the committee and by various sections of the community. We want to alter that perception significantly. A seminar that is about to take place is important to the Executive. At it, we will meet all the key representatives, which will allow us to begin to take forward that agenda.
The part on health was decidedly better than many other parts of the response.
I know that a great deal of discussion took place between housing officials and representatives of the Gypsy Traveller communities at the committee's seminar, and I know that progress was made. I will ask Tim Ellis or Yvonne Strachan to provide details on that progress.
If the committee agrees, it might be useful if you were to provide a written response to that question. Our report was wide ranging, so it might be more useful to have a written response that shows the progress that the Executive thinks has been made.
A written response that followed the headings and the different issues that were raised in the committee's report would be particularly helpful. The response on health stood out because we felt that some of the issues that we raised were being addressed. However, we were very disappointed with the responses to other issues, such as education, police and housing.
That helpful suggestion will allow me to provide a comprehensive written response.
I add my congratulations on the minister's appointment. It might be unfortunate from your perspective that, despite your promotion, you must still be questioned by the Equal Opportunities Committee. We are always keeping an eye on you, even if you are making progress.
I assume that you are referring to the campaign that I know as the anti-racism campaign.
Yes.
The campaign will be launched in the near future—we plan to launch it during the summer. Some discussions have taken place on the campaign and we have undertaken research in order to ensure that we impinge on the attitudes that we want to address. That research has informed our preparations for, and development of, the campaign. We have reached the stage of preparing campaign materials, such as the advertisements that we will run. It will be a significant high-profile campaign and will be embraced by the entire Executive. It will be led by, and have the involvement of, the First Minister. In the context of recent events, it is important that the Executive begin to tackle the unacceptable attitudes that persist in Scotland, as well as certain practices that might not be conscious, but which have unacceptable results. We are devising a comprehensive strategy to begin to deal with that, which will be implemented in the summer. Yvonne Strachan knows the details of that work.
The issue has been raised in the committee before. The member will appreciate that, because of events and issues, it is important to ensure that whatever campaign is run, it is as effective as possible, not only in meeting the targets but in getting the right messages to deal with the anti-racism issues as we see them. Quite a lot of the detailed work on the campaign has gone into developing those ideas and messages and collaborating internally and externally to ensure that that is possible. The campaign is intended to be ready for launch in late summer.
We see it as a positive campaign rather than a negative one. It is about valuing Scotland's diversity and the various contributions from all the different communities that make up Scotland. Within that positive framework, we want to tackle decisively some of the profound issues that we need to tackle.
You alluded to BEMIS. I have had meetings with BEMIS, to talk about the work that it has undertaken and envisages undertaking. Where does the work of BEMIS fit in with campaigns such as the anti-racism campaign and the general promotion of black and minority ethnic communities?
BEMIS plays a critical role. As I said to Cathy Peattie, it is one of many organisations that we support financially. Similarly, we support the race equality work of the Scottish Council for Voluntary Organisations and other organisations. BEMIS plays a particularly significant role. The sector was vulnerable and BEMIS did not have the core funding that it needed to engage with some of the issues with which we were asking it to engage. We recently increased the core funding that BEMIS receives, in recognition of its significance, and we regard it as a key partner in accessing the voluntary sector. It informs us about the organisations that are out there and can help us to begin to understand the scale of the issues that they face, which need to be dealt with.
Unless you exclude the Irish, there are members of the Parliament from ethnic minority groups.
Oh, yes. Forgive me.
That mistake is often made. Might the issue of sectarianism fit into the overarching work that is being done on race equality? Some of the problems that are encountered are not of a religious nature, but of an ethnic minority nature and can be interpreted as sectarianism.
Yes. That is a profound issue. Please do not tell my mother that I excluded the Irish as a group—she would never speak to me again. I, too, come from an Irish background, and some of the family experiences that I have had in Scotland have allowed me to understand the different experiences that ethnic communities have and the disadvantages that they face.
Good morning. I shall avoid the sycophancy of remarking on your promotion—you know that I am tough.
At one level we are governed by current legislation, which does not necessarily address the point that Lyndsay McIntosh raises. I was trying to say to Michael McMahon that the Scottish Executive, in being responsible for equalities, wants to ensure that we have a grasp of the discrimination that exists in society and ensure that we are prepared to tackle it. There is a degree of overlap between racism and what some people would argue to be religious discrimination, which takes us into the debate about sectarianism and religious hatred. We are restricted by the definitions that are in legislation.
Religion is covered by the general definition of equal opportunities in the Scotland Act 1998. It is not covered by anti-discrimination legislation, but we know that, given article 13, employment law will subsequently cover religion.
We are getting there.
There are a number of possible responses to that question. The issue has just become my responsibility; it was not mine before my recent appointment.
I move on to translation services, which, I suppose, is a related issue.
Recently, there has been pressure on such services and they are stretched. The translating, interpreting and communication support group is assessing the weaknesses in current provision and is trying to develop proposals for improving standards. I understand that we do not yet have those proposals, although a development worker post is about to be advertised so that we can bring the issues together and develop the different formats that we need.
The advertisement for a development worker went out a week or so ago, so progress is being made towards getting someone in that post.
I welcome all that you are saying, but I am concerned about sustainability. Five or six years ago, there was a reasonable network of community interpreting organisations in Scotland. They were funded mainly through the urban programme. There was a lot of expertise around, but a lot of it went when the funding was withdrawn.
That is one of the issues that Tim Ellis flagged up. I hope that, through the work of the TICS group and the development worker, authorities will take responsibility for translation services so that they are seen as a mainstream part of life and not as add-ons that are required occasionally for certain key groups. Translation is part of the service that we must deliver in Scotland. Our country is diverse and people have different needs. We must deliver appropriate services.
Funding is important. Dundee City Council was probably the only council to mainstream a translating and interpreting project when urban funding ran out, which meant that the council had to pay 100 per cent of the costs instead of 25 per cent. The council still has a good translating and interpreting service. The Executive must ensure that authorities that have translating and interpreting services are adequately funded, because such services are expensive to run properly. The services do not simply require bilingual people; the interpreters must be trained to learn the language that is required in, for example, courts, hospitals or schools.
I take that point. We will consider it in the work that will be done.
On behalf of the Liberal Democrats, I too give the minister my hearty congratulations.
This is wonderful.
It is your day. Given my constituency, the minister will not be surprised if I flag up rural issues. One conclusion in the Scottish Executive central research unit's document "Racist Crime and Victimisation in Scotland" is that
That is an interesting question. We expect all organisations with which we work to have a rural dimension to their work and I know that they have such a dimension. For example, the SCVO recognises the geographical diversity of Scotland and ensures that it has appropriate responses and that it is tuned to what is available locally. If there are gaps in services, the SCVO ensures that it meets them. We expect the organisations that we fund to ensure that they are not simply urban-based or central Scotland-based services.
I point the committee to the research that we submitted, which contains a chapter on race equality issues in rural areas and synthesises a lot of useful stuff. The key issue, however, is that we do not have a handle on the scale of the problem and need to do a lot of work to build up some basic data on the issues. Soon, there will be a seminar on rural issues at which there will be a specific workshop on minority ethnic experiences. That will be a helpful way of pinning down what some of the practical solutions to some of the issues might be.
I add my voice to the congratulations, minister. We are all pleased with where you are just now.
I believe that that is right. We need to consider how services can respond to that. In recent years, there has been considerable progress in Scotland in the debate around racist incidents and racist crime. I am not being complacent about that and I am not implying for a minute that there is not much more work to be done and change to be delivered, but we are beginning to sharpen our understanding of the scale of the problem and what the costs of the experiences are to the people involved. The systems need to be geared up to respond to that. Perhaps the next part of the change that we need to think through is to do with how all aspects of the criminal justice system respond to that.
A further major gap that was identified in the research was the lack of information leaflets about the criminal justice system that are translated into languages that are used by ethnic minorities. Translating those leaflets would be a simple and pretty costless exercise but would be of great benefit to minority communities in Scotland.
You are right and I understand that the justice department is doing work in that area. The research work that was done ran more or less in parallel with a huge body of work that the police, the Procurator Fiscal Service and others have been doing. There is probably a degree of timing mismatch in those pieces of work, but I know that the area that you mention has been considered. Certainly, the Executive has made some leaflets for victims of crime available in minority ethnic languages. It is part of the general programme of providing more information about the process, in order to clarify and demystify it and to debunk some of the thoughts that people who come to the system for the first time or who are unfamiliar with it might have.
We found that the group interview participants in the research study generally believe that the sentences for racist offenders are light, but that people of minority ethnic origin who were convicted of crimes get longer or stiffer sentences. On the other hand, sheriffs believe that they have to mark society's concern about racist behaviour by imposing a higher sentence for racially aggravated offences. As that goes against what people at the sharp end feel about the situation, we have obviously got our wires crossed a wee bit. More work needs to be done. Does the Executive plan to address the problem of perception?
That is largely a matter for the Deputy First Minister. A huge programme of work has been introduced in response to the recommendations of the working group that was set up following the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. Furthermore, the Crown Office and related bodies have set up a working group to consider some of the issues. However, there will always be limits to what the Executive can do in this area. As sheriffs have the discretion to apply whatever sentences they think are appropriate in the light of guidance and precedent, we must be careful not to be too prescriptive. That said, guidance has been issued to cover certain areas. For example, the Lord Advocate issued new guidelines to chief constables about the reporting of racist incidents. We have carried out work where it has been possible to do so, but undoubtedly there is still more to do.
I am talking about providing information about what is happening, which is surely one of the easiest ways of addressing the problem of perception. The Executive has to do an awful lot more work in this respect. Improving the way in which we put such information into the public domain would require only a small amount of resources but would have many benefits. I think that the perception that a person from a particular background is likely to get hammered is more widely held than by the ethnic minorities.
We want to counteract such a perception, and providing information would form a big part of doing so. Although we could pursue the information agenda more assertively, sentencing is a bit more tricky, for the reasons that Tim Ellis outlined.
I appreciate that.
I do not know whether this is a question or an observation. As you might know, I worked in the criminal justice system as the senior member of a court social work team and I am surprised to hear that there is a lack of information leaflets in ethnic minority languages. When I worked in that sector—I retired five years ago—the local authorities whose area was covered by the sheriffdom provided such leaflets as a matter of course and made them available to social workers, in the court waiting room and elsewhere. I am concerned if that is not the norm throughout Scotland.
I take that point. People should be informed about the justice system and the experience that they can expect to have in it. From the reports on some of the recent big cases, it is blindingly obvious that we need to respond to the needs of families and victims to be better informed about the processes that they are going through and about what their options are.
And about what expectations they can have.
Absolutely—they should be better informed about the standards of service they can expect from professionals and about what services are available to them. I take that point. I hope that that is one of the issues that we are pursuing rigorously.
The final question is from Elaine Smith.
I hope that it is not one of Elaine Smith's usual questions.
It may well be. My question is about an issue that was raised at the Equal Opportunities Committee meeting on 26 March, when there was a lack of clarity about the production of a code of practice to support the Race Relations Act 1976 (Statutory Duties) (Scotland) Order 2002. At that time, the CRE stated that its understanding, which was based on the law, was that the CRE was to issue the code of practice. However, Tim Ellis, who was present at the meeting, said:
Tim Ellis is delighted that he has been quoted. I will ask Tim to bring us up to speed on that.
Infamy at last.
The document is important. What is the production time scale?
The draft code of practice will be published for consultation on 29 May 2002, in Aberdeen, while the Parliament is sitting there.
How long will the consultation process run for?
Three months.
I hope that committee members will be invited to the launch of the code of practice. From my invitation, I notice that the code is to be launched "in the presence of the Minister for Social Justice", which sounds very regal.
Is that right? That is the first that I knew of that.
We look forward to the launch.
I will send the committee the reams of material that I was asked for.
The committee looks forward to receiving responses to the questions on which the minister said she would get back to us.