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Chamber and committees

Education Committee, 14 Jan 2004

Meeting date: Wednesday, January 14, 2004


Contents


School Transport Guidelines

The Convener:

Agenda item 3 concerns school transport guidelines, which is another issue that was first raised in a petition. I believe that we took the issue back on board earlier this session at Fiona Hyslop's request. We have received a further response from the Executive on some of the points that we raised when we last discussed the matter. We were concerned about the fact that we did not get all the answers that we were seeking when the officials were before us. However, the response from the Executive is much more comprehensive.

Fiona Hyslop:

The response is helpful and gives more information about the context than we were able to gather when we spoke to the officials. The Parliament recently had an interesting members' business debate in which the Minister for Transport talked about the transport division's perspective on the issue. That was useful, because previously we had heard only the Education Department's views.

There are aspects of the issue that we would want to consider further—we have made our point about the holistic approach—and I think that we should continue to monitor it and return to it at a later date. It was helpful to be reminded that there is a wider context to the issue. However, how can the committee keep in touch with the wider issues, particularly in relation to the environmental aspects? We must ensure that the Executive is aware of the problems that are arising due to the lack of a joined-up approach to the matter.

Would it be helpful to return to the matter during the budget discussions? I accept that the issue is not wholly financial, but the budget is a good way of keeping track of certain issues annually.

Fiona Hyslop:

Yes. We should also flag up the issue with the Local Government and Transport Committee and the Environment and Rural Development Committee. The Scottish Parliament should ensure that the Executive has a joined-up approach to the issue. We might not be able to drive that forward at the moment, but those other committees might be able to pick up on elements of the issue in their work.

The Convener:

We can bring the matter to the attention of those committees if members think that that would be helpful. My concern was that the Executive officials were not all that aware of what was happening in parallel in other fields, such as the work that is being done on green transport plans. If that is the case with the Executive officials, I suspect that it might well be the case with local government officials as well.

Rhona Brankin:

I agree with Fiona Hyslop. This committee raised some interesting alternative suggestions and issues such as sustainability and whether the two-mile limit was sensible or should be replaced by a system in which transport is available to all pupils on an ability-to-pay basis. We also discussed the yellow bus model that operates in the United States and I know that the Executive is keeping a close eye on some pilot projects in the UK. Although the issue will not be the subject of a big inquiry, I think that it is sufficiently important for us to return to it and to consider some policy matters.

When should we return to the subject, in your view?

Perhaps in the early autumn.

Dr Murray:

I agree. Although what the minister has said is generally helpful, I am slightly disappointed by the response in relation to the principles of the school transport policy. However, that might not be surprising, given that we asked only a short, sharp question. The evidence that we heard from the officials suggested that the current policy depends on the parents' duty to send their children to school rather than on any transport-based policy or any desire to reduce the number of cars that are used on school runs. As a result, I support the suggestion that we return to those issues at some point.

The Convener:

I know that we are all quite busy with the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Bill at the moment, but I wonder whether Fiona Hyslop's suggestion of appointing a reporter at some later point would be a way of progressing the issue.

I am more than happy to do that, if it helps the committee. After all, I am already corresponding with people and working on a number of the issues.

Mr Macintosh:

I echo Elaine Murray's comments. Although the minister's letter is welcome and he tries to reassure us that he is clearly committed to a joint approach, its mixture of response and evidence is not entirely convincing. In particular, there is no mention of the fact that the policy guidelines do not refer explicitly to sustainability issues. In the first paragraph on page 2, he says:

"We shall include appropriate cross references in future circulars."

"Appropriate cross references" are not enough. We want the Education Department to introduce a policy that states explicitly that local authorities should give equal consideration to transport and environmental issues. I am looking to the minister or the Executive to make such a statement at some point. It need not come in the form of a circular; it could be included in a speech at a conference or in a statement to Parliament. In any case, I seek something more from the minister than this letter. That said, I do not know when such an opportunity will arise. However, if the committee agrees, we could let the minister know that, although his response is welcome, we are looking for something more substantial and concrete.

We might have dealt with this before, but does anyone know whether Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Education has a role in relation to school transport? I rather think that its representatives said that it did not.

They said that it did not when we asked them.

I thought that HMIE had a role in that respect. We could check that out.

Particular issues in the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Bill, which is exercising our minds at the moment, also relate to school transport. Perhaps we should consider some of them.

Fiona Hyslop:

If Rhona Brankin is willing to take on the role of reporter, it would be helpful if she thought about how to progress the issue. In particular, given that we are expecting the Executive to work in a joined-up way, the committees of the Parliament should do the same.

Are you suggesting that Rhona Brankin, in her role as reporter, should come back to the committee with some ideas about progressing the matter?

Rhona Brankin:

I am happy to do that. I note that, at the end of his letter, Peter Peacock says that the guidelines

"are very much part of an ongoing process. It is always a matter of judgment though as to whether new developments and initiatives in the future should trigger a"

review

"of the general circular".

As a result, I do not think that we are at the end of a process. The Executive is relatively open to suggestions and it would be useful for the committee to take forward that work.

Lord James Douglas-Hamilton:

I certainly support Rhona Brankin's appointment as reporter, because the process is on-going. If I remember correctly, I raised the issue of the inspectorate. I believe that the committee wanted the inspectorate to be involved, as it could provide a lot of useful expert advice on the matter.

The Convener:

That is my vague recollection; I knew that the issue had been raised, but I could not recall the answer.

I suppose that the proper approach would be to ask Rhona Brankin to consider how she might take the matter forward—she could have discussions with Fiona Hyslop and others and then report back to the committee. Perhaps we should also take up Ken Macintosh's suggestion to ask the minister to make a statement on the need for councils to take a joined-up approach.

Mr Macintosh:

We will have to mull over the suggestions, but we could write to other committees and ask for their views. Perhaps we should also write to the minister—I do not know whether we should do that before or after Rhona Brankin reports back to the committee—to say that we are looking for something more concrete from him. We could thank him for his letter, but indicate that we expect him to take the matter further.

The minister takes a close note of our deliberations and I am sure that he will take up the matter. We could certainly write to him—that would not be difficult—and to the other committees, as you suggest.

Just for clarification, when should I report back to the committee?

We can leave you to decide that at your convenience. The logical approach would probably be for you to talk to the clerk or to me about the timescale.

Okay, that is fine.