Equal Opportunities Committee, 04 Jul 2000

Meeting date: Tuesday, July 4, 2000

Official Report 232KB pdf

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Scottish Homes Race Equality Consultation

For the next item on the agenda, we welcome representatives of Scottish Homes. At a previous meeting, we took evidence from Positive Action in Housing, whose representatives expressed concerns that led us to invite Scottish Homes to give evidence as part of its race equality consultation. The consultation process finishes on 7 July, so it will be necessary for this committee's comments to be sent in the form of a letter from me rather than in a report, as there would not be time to have a report approved officially by the Parliament.

I welcome our witnesses to the Equal Opportunities Committee. I hope that one of you will make a brief statement, after which the committee will ask questions.

I shall do that.

Thanks very much. Please carry on.

Thank you very much for inviting us along today. I am Rani Dhir, a board member of Scottish Homes. I am also a director of a co-operative housing association in Drumchapel, in Glasgow. Today I am here on behalf of the board of Scottish Homes, representing John Ward, the chairman and acting chief executive, who unfortunately could not attend.

On my right is Ewan Johnston, the managing director of Scottish Homes in the Glasgow and north Clyde region. Ewan chairs our race equality implementation group. On my left is Hugh Hall, the director of performance, regulation and strategy.

Strategy, performance and regulation.

Sorry, I got the order wrong.

I welcome the committee's interest in our race equality policy. Our consultation concludes at the end of this week, as noted in our submission to the committee, and we look forward to conveying members' views to the board of Scottish Homes.

Scottish Homes is the national housing agency. We are a non-departmental Government body, and we are funded by the Executive. Our main purpose is to provide good-quality, affordable accommodation and to contribute to the regeneration of local communities. We have a statutory duty to act as the registration authority for all registered social landlords who operate in Scotland, and to control and supervise their activities. We hope that, by the end of today's discussion, we will be able to give the committee a balanced view of what Scottish Homes has been doing and of its current approach to race equality.

There are four main issues for consideration. First, I shall outline the way in which our race equality policy impacts on us as a national housing agency, and the principles that underline that. Secondly, I hope to give a fair and balanced view of the agency's record to date on race equality. We have provided a broad picture of that in the written submissions—our consultation document and the other written paper that we submitted. Our agency is committed to continuous improvement in all our activities. Thirdly, I want to draw the committee's attention to some of the key proposals in the consultation document. Fourthly, in the course of what my colleagues and I say, some of the specific issues that were raised at the committee's previous meeting may be addressed. Our aim is to take a constructive approach to criticism where it is justified, and to refute it where it is not.

I shall deal first with the principles that underline our policy. There are three areas. First, as a public sector organisation, we are well aware of the issues that were raised by the Macpherson report and believe that all public agencies can learn key lessons from that report. Secondly, as we are responsible for the redistribution of public resources—in our case, housing resources—we must be aware of the wider social and economic context, especially of black and minority ethnic communities. We are aware that their access to good-quality housing is limited by certain factors that do not affect white communities. Thirdly, we know that we can deliver what we want to deliver only in partnership with others such as local authorities, central Government, housing providers and representatives from groups that have an interest in housing.

The document that we have submitted to the committee shows some of the actions that we have taken. I shall go through them briefly, as I know that time is short. We support employment access schemes, we commission and promote research and we fund the promotion of information and advice. We provide funding for building projects in the main cities in Scotland, and in East Renfrewshire we are working on strengthening performance standards for registered social landlords. We work collaboratively with the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations, which is the national representative body for housing associations. All those activities focus on black and ethnic minority communities, and some examples of that focus are contained in the document that we have provided for the committee.

At the end of 1999, 98 per cent of all registered social landlords had policies on equality of opportunity and 86 per cent had policies on racial harassment. We are well aware that having a policy does not mean that it is always implemented, but it is a start in regulating social landlords. Our own policy, which is contained in the consultation document, has been issued to public, private and voluntary organisations, as well as to individuals and organisations that work in housing and the wider community. We have issued 1,200 copies of that document, and we have also circulated copies to MSPs. We welcome the responses from everyone who has an interest in race equality, even our severest critics, to the work that we are trying to carry out.

At present, our policy implements in full the recommendations of the evaluation report that we undertook. Scottish Homes always reviews its policies. Its race equality policy has been evaluated and we intend to take up all the evaluation's recommendations. We aim to improve the situation for BME communities in Scotland and we want to ensure that they have access to a fair level of resources and support. In line with our thinking on social inclusion, we recognise community interest and the concept of the locally based community. That is particularly important when it comes to the question of black-led housing associations in Scotland. Our position is different from that of England, in that our BME communities are much more geographically dispersed. We also have fewer numbers in our BME communities.

Our approach is open-minded and constructive. However, we will not commit money to any group that demands it without having a clear idea of what needs that money will meet, how it would fit in with existing provision and how it would add value. To do so would be imprudent and patronising. BME communities deserve business-like organisations that are set up to succeed.

The agency's policy on black-led housing associations is an important issue, but it is only one of a series of issues from a much bigger agenda that we must address. It is as important for us to achieve outcomes. I cite as an example Charing Cross Housing Association in Glasgow, which works in an area where there is a large black and minority ethnic community. Sixty-five per cent of its management committee members and almost 40 per cent of its tenants are from black and minority ethnic communities. There are different ways in which to approach the housing needs of BME communities.

We accept that effective race equality policies are not just about eliminating direct racism and discrimination. A key lesson from the Macpherson report is that such policies should be about taking active steps to consider the processes, attitudes, culture and behaviour of an organisation. We look forward to hearing the committee's views, which we will take on board, and to answering your questions. I am grateful to members for listening to me. We want to listen to black and minority ethnic community groups.

I have quite a lot of questions, but to begin with I will ask only a couple. Your document is full of worthy aspirations, but, when I read it, my initial reaction was disappointment that it did not include many targets. I will ask you about enforcement and funding, as your document did not seem to say much about those issues.

The evaluation of Scottish Homes's race equality practice showed that mainstream housing providers had a poor record on tenants, committee members and staff from black and minority ethnic communities. What are the penalties for housing associations that do not come up to Scottish Homes's race equality performance standards? How many housing associations have been penalised for non-compliance with those standards?

All our registered social landlords are subject to a regulatory framework and, within that framework, there are performance standards to which all RSLs, as we call them, must adhere. All are expected to have in place policies, processes and procedures to ensure that they promote equal opportunities. Our document on raising standards underlies those performance standards and suggests a raft of practical ways in which housing associations can achieve and promote equal opportunities.

We carry out performance audit visits, during which we examine the extent to which housing associations comply with those standards. Then we report to those housing associations with any evidence that we may have found of non-compliance. During our previous round of visits, we were satisfied that 98 per cent of housing associations have equal opportunities policies in place and that those policies are being complied with. Where there is an indication of non-compliance, we report it. However, we do not take punitive action on that basis alone, rather we take an overview of performance. We seek to achieve improvements in performance, rather than to penalise non-compliance. We have powers to intervene in extreme cases, but there have not been any such cases.

I acknowledge that you monitor whether equal opportunities policies are in place, but do you monitor the performance in relation to tenancies, committees and so on?

Yes. We collect statistical information annually. In addition to that, we carry out performance audit visits during which we seek to ensure that there is evidence to support the statistical information that has been provided. We also interview housing association staff, committee members and so on to satisfy ourselves that they comply with policies.

The original race equality policy referred to ring-fenced development funding—a pot of £15 million over three years. Why is ring-fenced development money being discontinued and why is there no explanation for that change of policy?

Ring fencing was not part of the 1994 policy. In Glasgow, however, the approach that was adopted targeted specific ethnic minority needs, based on a city-wide assessment of those needs. For example, properties were provided for abused Asian women. The targeting proposal was for a limited period, from 1995 to 1998. The main aim of that approach was that it would act as a catalyst to encourage housing associations in the city to consider in more detail the housing needs of ethnic minority communities. The outcome was that 16 projects were funded, £8.8 million of housing association grant went into the projects and £3.1 million of private finance was attracted. In total, 4.2 per cent of the Glasgow budget for housing for rent was dedicated to that approach during those three years. However, that was clearly a time-limited approach.

The current proposal in the consultation document is to encourage housing associations to provide a more detailed analysis of ethnic minority housing needs through their strategy, development and funding plans. Those plans form the basis of housing associations' annual bids to Scottish Homes for resources. We are targeting the core areas of Glasgow where most of the ethnic minority population lives. Over the next few months, Scottish Homes will provide housing associations with guidance on producing robust needs analyses from the bottom up, rather than by adopting a top-down approach. That will produce more robust targets that more closely reflect the needs of ethnic minority communities. In turn, that will lead to a more effective use of resources and more appropriate resource allocation. In a sense, ring fencing is rather a crude measure. The new proposals should produce a more fine-grained approach that will be adaptable to the needs of ethnic minority communities.

In 2000-01, 5.7 per cent of the Glasgow budget will be dedicated to core ethnic minority community areas and 4.6 per cent will go towards housing association grant for rented accommodation in those areas. Funding is extremely important and I recognise the committee's concern. However, funding is not the only issue and we have a wide range of responses to provision for the ethnic minority community. For example, we have set up West of Scotland Racial Equality Housing, which is a forum in which people can discuss and network on the needs of ethnic minority communities.

In Glasgow, outreach work has been very successful in getting more people involved and on to waiting lists. We have carried out research into the needs of the ethnic minority communities in the city and nationally.

Thank you for that long answer. You seemed to suggest at the start that ring-fenced funding was put in place because there was a particular problem. I am not accusing you, but you were in danger of sounding rather complacent later in your answer by implying that there is not such a problem now as there was six years ago.

When we heard evidence from representatives of Positive Action in Housing, we were very concerned. One of the witnesses said:

"In relation to access of black communities to housing association and Scottish Homes stock, targets of 1.25 per cent were set to directly benefit black and minority ethnic communities. However, in 1997-98 there was a reduction in the proportion of new houses that were let to black households from 1 per cent to 0.2 per cent."—[Official Report, Equal Opportunities Committee, 20 June 2000; c 729.]

The figure of 0.2 per cent was correct for the year in question. That is a blip in the statistics; our most recent statistic on access to new lets for black and minority ethnic communities is 2.1 per cent, so the figure has gone up substantially. I suspect that that year's figure of 0.2 per cent was a rogue figure. The figures surrounding it are much more impressive.

One of the frustrations that Positive Action in Housing highlighted was the fact that there does not seem to be enough of a statistical background to the needs of ethnic minority communities. That might include figures on homelessness applications, waiting lists or overcrowding. Does Scottish Homes acknowledge that, and is it prepared to do something about it?

We obviously acknowledge that, but there are two sides to the story: on the one hand is the issue of paralysis by analysis; on the other hand, there is not enough information. Perhaps the information needs to be more sophisticated.

Scottish Homes carries out a number of research projects, many of which have been on black and minority ethnic communities. We produce précis notes of all our research. Document 1 was about black and minority ethnic communities and so was number 100—the most recent document. In between those there is a range of other research documents.

We can provide you with a list of all the research that has been carried out, but I repeat that that research needs to be more sophisticated. We are undertaking research into the more specific needs of black and minority ethnic communities.

The feeling seems to be that, unless we have baseline information that everyone can recognise, we are left with a series of assertions that come from one side of the fence or the other. Unless we can have the kind of research and baseline information that we all agree is necessary, we will not be able to build up a true picture that we all recognise.

That is a fair comment. As Ewan Johnston said, we are very keen to adopt a top-down and a bottom-up approach by feeding into the process the local information that housing associations naturally have about their communities. We need the baseline information. We have been reasonably good at collecting a raft of data on the participation of ethnic minorities in housing associations, in staffing and in lets in new buildings. There is a substantial amount of basic data, but we need to be more sophisticated in our use of them.

We could go wider than Scottish Homes and the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations. Although Scottish Homes is the national housing agency, I do not expect you to comment on local authority practices.

Homelessness applications are not broken down by gender or ethnic minority—the Scottish Executive does not have statistics covering ethnic minorities, but it is bringing them in. At the moment, therefore, we simply do not know what the picture of housing associations looks like outwith the remit of Scottish Homes.

Housing associations make up only a tiny percentage of the yearly social housing let. They might have a bigger role in future, but that is still a matter for debate. On local authorities, there is not—at the moment—any information on the people who apply, whether they are successful, and how long they have to wait. As the Scottish housing agency, does Scottish Homes have a view on whether we need that information?

As Tricia Marwick said, it is inappropriate for us to comment on local authorities, but looking forward, we are aware that housing legislation will come before Parliament soon. One of the proposals will be that there should be a single regulator. Perhaps through that vehicle we will achieve joined-upness and the holistic approach to information requirements and compliance that we probably need.

We have a dialogue with Audit Scotland on a number of issues. One of the things that we have been looking at is performance information and ensuring that we have consistency across the board. It should not matter whether one is a tenant of a housing association or of a local authority—one's needs and expectations should be the same. That is brought closer by the prospect of a single regulatory framework.

I would like to return to ring fencing. It was undoubtedly one of the original planks of the policy and, as far as I am aware, was going to be removed only when it had achieved all that it was meant to. Some black and ethnic minority communities have different needs from other people. If housing providers do not have ring fenced money, they will not be in a position to provide for those needs. Do you agree?

I said that ring fencing was not an integral part of the 1994 policy. A particular approach was taken in Glasgow—as is mentioned in the evaluation report—which targeted the needs of the ethnic minority community in Glasgow, but ring fencing throughout the country was not part of the 1994 approach. I tried to outline the fact that we need better information. We have to encourage housing associations to get better at analysing the needs of the ethnic minority communities in their areas. We are encouraging that through the new consultation document and we will give guidance to housing associations on our requirements. We need better information on housing needs so that we can get better at targeting ethnic minorities and setting targets for their needs. That is the approach that we want to adopt. We also want to link our requirements to the performance of housing associations on regulation and performance, so that if they are under-performing we can take positive action.

Are you pushing to have black and ethnic housing associations?

Our position on that is outlined in the consultation document. We will work constructively with organisations to see whether there is a case for setting them up. I spoke last week to the head of the Commission for Racial Equality in Scotland—who is also the chair of Apna Ghar—on the matter. I am due to meet him on 6 July to discuss whether we can assist in taking the issue forward. From the brief discussion that I had with him last week, it seems that the thinking in Apna Ghar has developed since previous discussions were held with Scottish Homes.

If Mr McGrigor refers to what I said in my opening statement, we are prepared to support such organisations, but they must be demonstrably of benefit to BME communities. We think that a positive and constructive approach is just that; it is not a blank cheque. We feel positively about BME housing associations being set up where they are required.

Evidence was led at the previous meeting of the Equal Opportunities Committee that suggested that Scottish Homes was interested only in funding and registering large organisations because of economies of scale. If members consider the 258 registered social landlords that we regulate, they are relatively small. The majority have fewer than 500 units. It is important that members realise that we are in the business of supporting and promoting smaller community-based organisations, subject to them meeting the registration criteria and being demonstrably viable in the longer term.

We are getting better and more sophisticated in relation to the corporate structures that can be used to facilitate the different models. We are keen to work with the BME community to develop our thinking and see what can be achieved.

The policy states that a senior member of the management team of Scottish Homes will have responsibility for the implementation of the race equality policy. Will that member's remit be only race equality, or will they do other things as well?

You are talking about me.

As Rani Dhir said in her introductory remarks, I am the managing director of Scottish Homes in the Glasgow and north Clyde region, so I have a range of responsibilities that I must carry out in that area. In addition, I have been offered and have accepted responsibility for the implementation of the new policy on race equality. It is my responsibility to drive that policy forward over the coming year and beyond.

Are you happy that only one staff member has that responsibility?

That is not the case. I will lead, but Scottish Homes has five regions and each region has identified a race equality officer. I will head the race equality implementation group, which will also include the five regional representatives and representatives from most other departments of Scottish Homes, including our human resources department, our registration and supervision department and our finance department. Those departments all have an interest in the issue. Rather than one person taking an interest in the matter, it is spread through the whole Scottish Homes organisation. I assure the committee that the matter is being taken very seriously and that there is no complacency.

Much of what we have discussed and much of what is in your document is about the accuracy of needs assessments. I am more concerned about who will do the assessments than I am about how they will be done. I am concerned about the representation of black and ethnic minority groups in the assessment process. The document makes no recommendation on targets for representation on local committees. Would guidance on targets from Scottish Homes—from the top—be useful in achieving other targets to ensure that the people who are carrying out the assessment are aware of what is required? How would the targets be monitored if there were inadequate representation of black and ethnic minority people on the committees? How often will the committees have to report to the management group?

I shall first answer the question on who will do the housing needs assessment. In the next few months, Scottish Homes will provide guidance to housing associations on how to carry out the housing needs assessment. Where a forum such as the West of Scotland Racial Equality Housing Forum in Glasgow is established, in which ethnic minority communities housing association representatives participate, we expect to have dialogue with them. We will consult them on the guidance that goes out to ensure that that guidance is pertinent to the needs of housing associations that include ethnic minority communities. Hugh Hall has outlined the monitoring that we do on committee membership and so on. The information from the monitoring is updated annually to check how we are doing on the representation of black and minority ethnic communities on housing associations.

I referred earlier to "Raising Standards", which is produced by the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations but is supported and funded by Scottish Homes. I do not know whether the committee has had the benefit of that publication. It has a section on monitoring and target setting. We expect housing associations to assess the position in their communities, set targets and report on those through their management committees. The role of Scottish Homes is from time to time to monitor that performance and how housing associations go about their business.

That is fine for general target setting for the community. What about targets for the management groups? I do not know whether you can answer this off the top of your head, but does WESREH reflect the ethnic minority that it will assess? If not, what will you do to achieve proper representation of ethnic minorities on that body?

We would say that there is proper representation of ethnic minority communities on that body, largely drawn from ethnic minority housing association committee members. They are on the committee of WESREH and provide advice and assistance. They network with housing associations and have been instrumental in helping to get increased membership on the committees of housing associations.

In the past, Scottish Homes has been criticised for its top-down approach and for setting targets from Thistle House in Edinburgh. In the revised policy, we are keen to develop a bottom-up approach so that the housing associations and the communities that they serve can take a better view of these matters. Certainly, we have an overarching principle, which is that targets should reflect local circumstances, but we want to steer clear of laying down specific statistical targets. We try through "Performance Standards" and "Raising Standards" to set out the framework within which we expect housing associations to operate, but leave it to the housing associations to do what they think is reasonable in the circumstances in setting numerical targets.

I would usually agree with you about the top-down approach, but do you think that in addressing the needs of ethnic minorities it would be better for Scottish Homes to ensure that there is representation, rather than saying that you believe that there may be representation and that you hope that, given your attitude, there will be? Is it not incumbent on Scottish Homes to say that it has to have proper representation of black and ethnic minorities on its associations?

That is done through "Performance Standards" and "Raising Standards", which contain detailed requirements. We stop short of giving a specific number to which associations have to adhere.

You stop short of even setting a minimum. Setting a minimum requirement in an area goes beyond what you consider to be reasonable.

That is beyond what we set out in the regional action plan in terms of lets and so on. We do not say what specific housing associations should do. That is for the regional managing directors to take a view on.

How can you ensure that the assessment that is being carried out reflects the ethnic minority that is seeking representation?

We would seek to ensure that the representation on committees is commensurate with the ethnic minority population of the area. If there were a high ethnic minority population, we would expect that to be reflected in committee membership. If there were a shortfall on committees, we would need to address that with our partner housing associations and ask why proper representation had not been achieved.

We take a view on this issue. If we are carrying out a performance audit and do not believe that the make-up of the management committee reflects the community as a whole, we will seek to establish the reason for that. We will look at the action that has been taken by the association to address the issue. In undertaking that evaluation, we look to the "Raising Standards" and "Performance Standards" documents to find out how the association has complied with them and try to improve the situation in that way.

I want to probe a couple of areas that have already been touched on. Jamie McGrigor asked who was responsible for racial equality policy. Ewan Johnston has that role, but I understand that there used to be a dedicated race equality officer. Are you doing all that person's work, or is it being done differently?

Although we had a dedicated race equality officer, it was a temporary post and we did not continue it. Like most organisations, we think that it is much better to mainstream race equality. We found in our evaluation that people in the organisation tended to put the onus for race equality issues on the race equality officer, and we did not think that that was a useful way of mainstreaming race equality.

Although that is always a danger, the question is whether race equality has been successfully mainstreamed at all levels of your organisation.

We have certainly improved our position on employment, for which Ewan Johnston will now be responsible. However, the evaluation showed that, although we were successful in Glasgow, we were not as successful in other areas. It is not that we did not do anything; we were just not successful in those areas and it is important that the successes highlighted in the evaluation report are duplicated in other areas. That might mean targeting the issue differently, which is a matter that the race equality implementation group will examine. Almost 2 per cent of our employees are from BME communities. We have supported employment access schemes such as Positive Action for Training in Housing to the tune of more than £500,000, as well as other outreach work on employment.

Have you set targets for employment for the next 12 months? You have said that the current level is almost 2 per cent.

Targets are set for two-year periods.

The target is 2 per cent employment by 2001. Although we are heading in that direction, the target is still a bit of a stretch.

I think that the current level is about 1.8 per cent.

The target for employment for Scottish Homes has to be seen against a backdrop of downsizing. We will progressively reduce our staff numbers over the next couple of years because our housing stock is being transferred to other landlords. As we have a fairly stable work force, we do not have much opportunity to recruit externally and our room for manoeuvre is limited.

Within those limitations, how do you ensure that you recruit from all sections of society?

When we advertise a post, we are committed to interviewing applicants—if they meet the criteria—who are from BME communities or who are disabled. We try to be positive about welcoming such applicants in our advertisements. However, as Hugh Hall said, we have not placed many advertisements because we are downsizing.

Ewan Johnston mentioned the specifics of the Apna Ghar proposal and said that he had been involved in discussions. At our previous committee meeting, concerns were raised that, although Apna Ghar had developed a business plan with funding from Scottish Homes, the organisation was finding it acutely difficult to progress the matter, as it required the funding to establish a new black minority ethnic community-led housing association. Do you think that the business plan has demonstrated that the organisation is viable and deserving of funding?

As members may be aware, there is a long history to Apna Ghar, which is too complicated to go into. From about 1994 until 1998, various dialogues took place. An interim report was done, but Apna Ghar has not submitted a business plan to Scottish Homes. The last correspondence between the two took place in July 1998. At that time, we said that we were not satisfied that a compelling case for funding had been made in certain areas of operation.

As I said, I had a discussion with Apna Ghar last week. The thinking in Apna Ghar seems to have moved on considerably in those two years. In the original proposal, the area of operation was Glasgow and its environs. A different approach is now being taken, and Apna Ghar is looking to operate on a national basis. The proposal has moved on considerably, which is of interest to me. I am keen to enter into further discussion with Apna Ghar and build on last week's brief meeting to see whether the proposal can be developed to add value to what is there already. Things have changed, and we want to explore that as soon as we can.

Are you saying that you will have those discussions in the next few weeks?

A meeting is arranged for Thursday morning this week. How far we progress will depend on the type of discussion that we have, but I am optimistic about our being able to continue with the discussions.

With regard to the written strategy of 1994, the committee accepts that ring fencing of funds was not a designated part of the strategy, although it developed as an important aspect of that strategy. You mentioned that there was a three-year period. There is concern about the fact that, as you said, the proportion of new housing being allocated to black minority ethnic communities fell considerably during 1997-98. You have said that there has been a rise to 2.1 per cent. Is that for 1998-99 or 1999-2000?

In 1996-97, there was a drop in black and minority ethnic representation in the housing associations. There is concern that that drop, followed by a drop in the proportion of new housing being allocated to the black minority ethnic community, was due to the removal of the ring-fencing approach. You said that the other approach led to more money being directed to certain areas. However, that money did not seem to result in more involvement or more allocation.

I accept that the figures for that year show a significant drop. The most recent figures, which are for 1998-99, show that the figure has risen to 2.1 per cent. Considering the situation over a period rather than considering a snapshot would show that the level of involvement is generally higher than it was that year.

Other circumstances have had an effect since the original policy was put in place in 1994. Our national allocation dropped dramatically in the mid-1990s, from somewhere in the region of £300 million to about £200 million in 1998. Obviously, that has also had some effect.

In addition to that drop in the allocation—which has stabilised and has begun to increase in relation to overall resources—there has been a focus on other priority areas, such as social inclusion partnerships and, more recently, rural partnerships. All those things are coming together, and there are a number of priorities alongside the ethnic minority priority.

However, the money allocated from the housing budget to ethnic minority core areas in Glasgow has risen to 5.7 per cent for 2000-01, compared with 4.2 per cent between 1995 and 1998.

You did not refer to the composition of your management committees. The figures that were presented to us showed that between 1996 and 1997 you had a drop in black and minority ethnic representation from 3.2 per cent to 1.1 per cent. Is that also a blip, or is it a trend?

There is always movement in the composition of management committees. I would hope that that is not a trend and that it can be reversed through the work that we have been doing with various agencies, through the housing associations, through organisations such as WESREH and through other action that we are taking. I hope that the representation of ethnic minority communities will increase.

In the core areas, minority ethnic representation on committees averages 20 per cent. The trick is to get people who require housing—who are not always black and minority ethnic—into black-led housing associations or housing associations in areas where there are black and minority ethnic communities. Where such situations exist in England, not all the lets are to black and minority ethnic people—I think that it is about half.

There is a difference between allocating the money and ensuring that black and minority ethnic people get into those houses. In the core areas where we have spent money on projects that we thought were geared towards housing black and minority ethnic communities, we have been successful, but it is not always guaranteed that 100 per cent of the housing will be provided for those communities. There are two approaches: through black and minority ethnic-led housing associations and through local housing associations in areas where there is a large black and minority ethnic community.

I mentioned the statistic about the allocation of new houses to illustrate the point that you have just made, Rani. Ewan Johnston said that more money had been spent, but that did not correspond with more houses being let. That is why we have tried to clarify how the money is being targeted to ensure that the number of lets to the black and minority ethnic community increases.

Hugh Hall talked about monitoring housing associations in relation to equal opportunities and described how the associations are responding to the strategy. Malcolm Chisholm asked whether you had any means of intervening to encourage those that were not responding to do so. I was a wee bit worried about your answer, Hugh, because it seemed to indicate—correct me if I am wrong—that there was no mechanism for punishment, that it would take a lot for you to intervene and that you take on board a number of other factors before you award points or give a report in relation to supervision. My worry is whether that means that a housing association could be given a clean bill of health for other matters, even though its performance in relation to equal opportunities may be poor.

I am sorry if I have given you the wrong impression. Scottish Homes has at its disposal a range of means of intervening on and penalising housing associations. That could mean putting people on to the management committee or it could mean—for non-compliance—transferring the housing stock of a housing association to another housing association.

Those are extreme intervention measures, but I was trying to get across the fact that we would seek to work with the housing association if we found deficiencies in any area of its performance. The association would be required to produce an action plan and its progress would be monitored against that. We have an A to E rating system. There would be no question of a housing association that was performing badly in terms of race equality getting an A rating. We take an overview of the association's performance in a range of areas. If there are any deficiencies of performance against our strict standards, we try to work with the association to put things right. Ultimately, we can intervene. If we have to intervene, we have the powers at our disposal to do so. We have not had to use those powers for that purpose, but it could happen and we are satisfied that we have the powers required.

In new legislation, we would like additional powers allowing different ways of intervening to put things right. For example, our English counterparts have the power to appoint a special manager to a housing association to take work forward; in Scotland, we do not have that useful intervention technique.

Thank you for that clarification. In evidence to the committee, we have heard concerns about sheltered housing. Although there have been projects for Chinese and Jewish elders, sheltered housing provision has not yet been made for Indian and Pakistani elders. Are you aware of that and, if so, are steps being taken to address it?

We are well aware of it. Hanover Housing Association has commissioned a report from Positive Action in Housing and, collectively, Hanover Housing Association, Bield Housing Association and Kirk Care Housing Association are looking into that aspect of providing housing for the elderly. A housing association in Edinburgh built extra units in sheltered accommodation for elderly Pakistani and Indian people. However, we take on board what you say about the lack of provision in that area.

I would like to wind up this part of the meeting. Malcolm Chisholm and Tricia Marwick want to ask more questions. I will let them do so, but I would like the questions and the answers to be brief.

Fair enough—I was going to quote again from the Official Report but I had better not or I will get told off.

Especially if you quote yourself.

Not myself, but Positive Action in Housing. It made the point that it had rarely been consulted by Scottish Homes in the development of policies such as the strategy on race equality. I could mention PATH Scotland in that context, too. How were their views taken into account? How will their comments, and those of wider black and ethnic minority communities, be taken on board at the end of the consultation period?

We consulted after we had reviewed the policy—we needed something to consult on. As I said, we have issued our document to more than 1,200 people. There is no one organisation that we would contact that represents all black and minority ethnic communities. Different groups have different views on our policies and on what they would like to happen. We would not consult only one or two groups.

We are in discussion with the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations on how best to take forward our preliminary discussions with members of the Executive's race equality advisory forum about the need to have a more structured and continuous dialogue among providers, ourselves, and the groups representing BME communities. We will not be closing the door on dialogue when the consultation period ends, but one needs something to consult on in the first place.

We had a 1994 policy statement and an associated action plan. We commissioned an independent evaluation, which we published with a précis. In the process of creating the consultation document, a range of informal discussions took place between the policy staff in my team and various organisations. We had a fair amount of input during that process. The purpose of the consultation document is formally to seek the views of a range of interested bodies. That information will go back to our board in the coming months before we produce the final formal policy document.

I have to declare an interest: I am a member of the management committee of Apna Ghar. We have heard a lot of impassioned evidence about black and ethnic minority-led housing associations. I cannot read out all that I wanted to, but I would draw your attention to column 730 of the report of our meeting on 20 June:

"Scottish Homes . . . gives out little droplets of funding . . . for business plans. However, it does not give out enough funding to pay for a director of a black and ethnic minority-led housing association."—[Official Report, Equal Opportunities Committee, 20 June 2000; c 730.]

You have expressed good intentions, but it is a chicken-and-egg situation: unless a staff member is appointed, how can the project be carried forward?

We must have a clear idea of the need that is to be met, how it will fit in with existing provision and how it will add value. We have received an application from Apna Ghar for £154,000. Normally, our seed-corn funding is £50,000—obviously, we do not have a blank cheque—so we have said that we will consider the application. We need some assessment of the requirement. Appointing a director is not the first stage in setting up an organisation. I know that because I have trained the staff of a number of associations, appointed their directors and supported their committees. It is not just a case of appointing a director so that a housing association can be formed. It is more complex than that.

We are keen to ensure that whenever a housing association is established, it has long-term viability and is self-sustaining. The possibility of seed-corn funding is part of positive engagement in the process. One thing that we can do, and are keen to do, is to share our knowledge and expertise, working along with prospective landlords. As I said earlier, we are getting more imaginative and creative in constructing organisations and making them viable in the long term, without looking for huge economies of scale. That positive engagement is the first step in the process.

You have talked about your work with the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations on addressing the needs of the black and ethnic minority communities. Does the SFHA, as the representative organisation for the housing associations in Scotland, have a view on whether having black-led housing associations is the way to go?

I cannot speak for the SFHA, but I understand that the 1994 policy statement expressed support for black and minority ethnic-led housing associations. Since then, it has done other work, but I do not know its current position. I presume that it will still support the idea. We do collaborative work with the SFHA. At the moment, a chapter on raising standards in equality of opportunity is being worked on. It is too long for some people—at the moment, it has 100 pages—but they are trying to get it smaller. There are two strands to our work with the SFHA: one is support for black and minority ethnic-led housing associations to house black and minority ethnic communities who are disadvantaged; the other is monitoring and regulation of housing associations' performance.

A specific complaint was made by the representatives of Positive Action in Housing when they came to see us. The Scottish housing advisory panel does not include that organisation. Has the membership of the panel been decided?

Which panel is that—the panel that was referred to in the green paper? There is a Scottish housing interest group, which is led by the Scottish Executive.

I think that it is the Scottish Executive panel.

I am afraid that we are not setting that group up.

That is the Scottish Executive panel, so it would be nothing to do with Scottish Homes. Have you finished, Tricia?

Yes.

It will be difficult for us to respond to the Scottish Homes consultation by Friday. We took evidence last week and we have drafted a report on the basis of it. Could we have some flexibility, to ensure a balanced report? I would like the committee to continue to deal with this matter in the recess, although we will not have a committee meeting in the recess. We will not ask you to wait until September, but could you wait a few more days?

That would be possible.

A couple of weeks would be possible.

Thank you very much for coming to give evidence to the committee. We will get our response to you as quickly as possible.

We have some leeway in the time to respond to the evidence that we have just heard. Michael McMahon, our reporter on race issues, has sent out a draft report, and the Official Report of this meeting will be published on Wednesday. If members e-mail any suggested amendments to Michael McMahon's report to him, and send copies to Martin Verity and me, we can put together an agreed report over the next week or so, which we can send as our response to Scottish Homes. Is everybody happy with that?

What are the general parameters of that report? Will it include target-setting issues?

Michael McMahon's report is very good.

I got it only this morning.

Members have a week in which to read it.

Does the report mention the issues that were raised this morning?

Most of this morning's questioning was based on what was in my report. I have welcomed the good aspects of the Scottish Homes report and any outstanding questions have been asked.

That is fine.

If members read the Official Report of both meetings at which evidence has been taken and Michael McMahon's draft report, and e-mail any comments or amendments to Michael and me, we should be able to arrive at an agreed report that we can send to Scottish Homes. Are we agreed?

Members indicated agreement.