Scottish Executive Equality Unit
Representatives of the Scottish Executive equality unit have come to give us evidence about the work and remit of the unit. Yvonne Strachan heads the unit, and is here with Louise Donnelly, Esther Breitenbach and Lynn Henni.
Have all members received the briefing note that was distributed by the clerks? Yvonne, could you kick off, speaking briefly to your note? Members will have the opportunity to ask questions later.
Yvonne Strachan (Scottish Executive Equality Unit):
Thank you, convener, I will do that. We are very pleased to have been invited to give evidence to the committee today, and we hope that the information that you gain from the discussion will be helpful for the committee's deliberations.
The equality unit was set up to support the Executive in its commitment to promote equality of opportunity. In doing that, it has three main remits. The first is to provide a single point of reference and advice in the Scottish Executive to ensure that the various aspects of equality are given a particular focus, and that information may be disseminated throughout the Executive.
The second remit is to mainstream equality into all policy areas. The Executive is committed to ensure that equality of opportunity should be at the heart of policy making. For that to be developed, focus needs to be given to the principles of mainstreaming. The unit was established to assist the Executive in that task.
The third remit is to promote equal opportunities within the Executive and beyond. That task will constitute raising awareness on equality of opportunity in various ways.
As we have outlined in the short briefing note to the committee, there are two contexts in which we work. The first is legislative. As members are well aware, legislative competence on equal opportunities rests with Westminster, but the Scotland Act 1998 provides for an exemption. The definition of equal opportunities in the act is broad, and it is within that definition that the equality unit is charged to act.
The second context is defining precisely which aspects of equal opportunities we are responsible for as a unit within the Scottish Executive.
There are two strands to activity relating to equality of opportunity. The first is for the Executive to examine its responsibilities as an employer. That is the responsibility of the unit, which is part of the corporate services department of the Executive. However, our task is more to address the second strand of activity: the Executive as promoter of equal opportunities. All our activity is centred around that strand.
We are still in our early days, as members will appreciate, but we have worked to respond to the Executive's desire for an equality strategy, and committee members will have seen the consultation document, which has been distributed internally and externally. It will allow the Executive to devise a more detailed equality strategy and an equality programme.
The consultation process is highly participative. Apart from the written submissions to the consultation, we will try to ensure that dialogue takes place. The consultation period ends on 4 April. From then, it is envisaged that a detailed report will be made to Parliament in April or May with a view to having an annual report to Parliament on the progress that the Executive is making in equal opportunities.
The equality unit is also working with departments on the equality aspects of policy—that is part of the mainstreaming agenda. In external and internal consultation, dialogue and partnership, we will examine how to make the tools of mainstreaming effective for the task. We will then explore how to raise awareness of equality of opportunity, particularly through training. As important, we will develop the networks through which the equality agenda can be delivered.
The Executive has made it clear that the equality agenda can be pursued only if the partnership, dialogue and consultation with those most affected and with those who have the relevant expertise is adequate. It is our task to ensure that those networks can be devised and built upon in order to deliver the agenda.
The strategy contains some key components; I am sure that the committee will wish to discuss them. As well as the training and development strategy on mainstreaming equality and raising awareness about equal opportunities, we hope to elicit views on improvements to the baseline statistics and research from the consultation; on how to develop practical tools for the quality impact assessment on legislation and policy; on performance management frameworks; on performance indicators; and on how to share and disseminate good practice.
We have asked for comments on all those issues in the consultation; we hope that that dialogue will enable us to devise an effective programme around these strands. I will conclude my remarks there. You may wish to discuss with us issues that have arisen both in your previous discussions of equality matters and in the consultation.
How do you see the unit working with the committee? There has been some confusion between the role of the committee and that of the equality unit.
The equality unit is responsible to ministers and the Executive for its work. As part of the Executive, we need to establish a working relationship with the committee. Lynn Henni, who is the liaison officer between our unit and the committee, will say a few words about how we see that process developing.
Lynn Henni (Scottish Executive Equality Unit):
I am the departmental committee liaison officer for the Executive with this committee. I have not had much chance to develop that role in the past, but we are now looking to deal with Martin Verity on a more regular basis and to come to committee meetings more often. Our liaison with the committee is very much at the development stage, and we would be happy to listen to any suggestions.
Can you say a little more about collating and improving baseline and on-going information, research and statistics? The committee has identified that there is a lack of available data in a number of areas. We would like to know how you intend to deal with that problem, and how the process of information gathering can be linked in with the issues that the committee is considering.
We are aware that the committee has raised this issue. I ask Esther Breitenbach to comment.
Esther Breitenbach (Scottish Executive Equality Unit):
As you are aware, the memorandum that the Deputy Minister for Communities sent to the committee mentioned that there is a commitment to improving the provision of data. Currently, data on gender are better than data on ethnic minority communities and people with disabilities. There are a number of measures in hand that should lead to improvements.
First, I have been in discussion for some time—both prior to the establishment of the equality unit, when I was women's issues research consultant, and subsequently—with the central statistics unit. We are hoping that a short publication containing key gender-disaggregated statistics will be published by the spring.
Secondly, the central statistics unit has given a commitment to carry out an audit of the opportunities to disaggregate data according to gender, race and disability. The audit, with responses to the consultation, will help inform the next step—identifying gaps and considering how to fill them.
Thirdly, the Scottish household survey, which has already been brought to your attention, is an important source of information. It will provide better gender-disaggregated information and cover ethnic communities and disabled people. Two bulletins of the Scottish household survey have already been published and are available on the internet. They include some information, disaggregated by gender and age, on topics such as health, smoking behaviour, requirements for care, income, education and training, volunteering behaviour and access to the internet from home.
At this stage, the Scottish household survey has provided little information on minority ethnic populations, partly because there is a need to build up the number of households surveyed before those data can be disaggregated meaningfully. In any case, it is likely to provide good information at a Scotland level, rather than at the level of smaller areas. I will come back to the issue of information on ethnic minorities in a second.
Fourthly, it has been brought to the committee's attention that the 2001 census will provide uniform information about the country as a whole and smaller areas and sub-groups of the population. Results will include information collected on gender, minority ethnic communities, marital status and limiting long-term illness. The census will provide fresh data on gender and ethnic minority households, covering a wealth of interrelated topics and areas. The results will be produced for a range of areas, including Scotland as a whole, council areas, council wards and output areas—the smallest level of disaggregation, which is an area containing about 50 households. Given the size and complexity of census data, they will not be available until 2002-03.
Fifthly, as we have noted, the consultation document specifically invites responses on information, statistics and research. Those responses will inform the development of a strategy in respect of disaggregated statistics.
Last, a public announcement is expected shortly on proposals for a new and wide-ranging survey of minority ethnic communities in Scotland.
You say that the census information will not be ready until 2002-03. For how many years beyond 2002-03 will the information that is gathered in the census be used for strategic planning?
As I have worked in academia and research, I can say that census data are a major source of information that is used over the next 10 years. To some extent, the information becomes out of date, but all sorts of projections and adjustments can be applied.
What input did the equality unit have into the composition of the census? Were you approached at any stage about what questions relating to your field should be included?
The equality proofing of consultations is another issue. What input are you able to have there? Some of the evidence that the Local Government Committee took on the ethical standards in public life etc (Scotland) bill showed that due regard had not been given to equality issues. The committee indicated to the Deputy Minister for Local Government that it thought that that was important for the future. What is your role in ensuring that we do not have consultations that are colour-blind or gender-blind?
Louise Donnelly (Scottish Executive Equality Unit):
Ministers were committed to establishing the unit by the end of 1999. However, the process of mainstreaming requires long-term and deep-rooted cultural change. We expect that, over time, the Executive's ability to proof legislative proposals in terms of equal opportunities impact will improve.
The equality unit will be consulted on all proposals at an early stage, but we would hope to do more than we have so far done. There is a heavy onus on lead-policy interests in the Executive to have regard to equal opportunities impact assessment as part of the policy statement that accompanies all bills that come before the Parliament.
Were you consulted on what should be included in the census? Do you have a particular view on whether a question on religion should be included in the census?
Internal consideration of policy options is not something on which I am able to answer questions, as it is a matter for ministers. The equality unit was established at the beginning of September and has been involved in discussions in relation to the on-going consideration of census issues.
You may not be able to say which questions should be included in the census when it is reviewed, but would it be fair to say that it is part of the process of the department that has responsibility for drawing up the census in Scotland to consult the equality unit on what should go in it, given the particular importance of data in that area?
I am acknowledging the stage of development the unit was at during the detailed consideration of the development of the census.
Does that mean that the unit has not been consulted, but will be in the future?
I could not say that we have not been consulted, but the development of the census and the detailed work had been going on for a number of years before the Census (Scotland) Order 2000 was published at the beginning of this year.
I know that it is very early days for the consultation paper, but can you tell us how widely it has been disseminated? How many copies of the paper are in circulation? What would you consider to be a good response rate?
About 2,000 copies have been distributed so far. The text can also be accessed through the website. We are continually distributing through other mechanisms. We expect the paper to be disseminated widely over the consultation period.
It is rather difficult to say what would be a good response. We would hope to get a particularly good response to this consultation. It is difficult to make comparisons with other consultations, because issues have different interest points. I think it is correct to say that we received about 300 responses to the arts consultation. Other consultations have received a greater number. We will be happy if we achieve the maximum response from as wide a group of people as possible.
Was the document distributed in other accessible formats, such as in ethnic minority languages, braille and on audio cassette?
The document contains details in ethnic minority languages of where the whole document can be made available in those languages. Translations into community languages will be made available on request. In addition, the translations have been put on the website, as has the consultation document itself. Arrangements have been made to make available a braille version. In the main document, we have also highlighted the fact that the document is available in large print, on tape and in other formats.
Are those available immediately, so that people have the same length of time to respond to the consultation?
The translations and the braille version are available. We have done a major distribution through Disability Scotland, which is highlighting the fact that the document is available in alternative formats with those groups which it is aware may find that useful.
Are there mechanisms in place to allow the equality unit to see proposed legislation at an early stage?
Yes, but I stress again that we started from a standing start. The commitment was to establish a unit by the end of December. What we have been physically able to achieve in the first few months of operation must be seen in that context.
Yes, but are mechanisms now in place to allow the equality unit to have a look at future legislation at an early stage?
Yes.
Can we take it, therefore, that proposed legislation from the Executive from this day on will be passed through the equality unity for equality proofing?
Responsibility for mainstreaming equality rests with lead policy divisions. Our role is to support them and to contribute to their work. We will continue to work with lead policy divisions as they undertake preparatory work on legislative proposals.
But are formal mechanisms in place to allow the equality unit to have input into legislation before it reaches an advanced stage?
Yes, in the sense that guidance is available on consultation with the equality unit.
In the briefing, you mention a training and development strategy to mainstream equality across the work of the Scottish Executive with public bodies and more widely. Do you have more details of that? Does that mean that you will provide training, for example, to local government? What is meant by "more widely"?
The intention is to develop a training and awareness strategy on mainstreaming. That will be done in conjunction with the respective departments in the Scottish Executive so that the training meets the needs of the policy makers and to ensure that equality mainstreaming is appropriate to the development of the particular policy areas. In rolling that out to the wider public sector, the Executive is charged with responsibility to promote equal opportunities.
However, that does not mean that the Executive's definition of the position is prescriptive and must be pursued elsewhere. The intention is to co-operate with external bodies to ensure that the promotion of equal opportunities is worked into their message.
Those external bodies include all the agencies with which the Executive has a formal role and the wider public sector, including local government. We also work in conjunction with statutory equality agencies, which have a particular role in ensuring that there is greater awareness of equality of opportunity.
What role do you have in working with the personnel director to ensure that the Executive is a good employer in terms of equal opportunities? Do you have any idea from the outset how far there is to go, because if you do not know where you are starting from, you will not know how far you have to go or the basis on which you are working.
The process of monitoring and evaluation is a matter for the equality unit, but, as I am sure you are aware, the programme for modernising government contains commitments to improve the level of representation for women, people from ethnic minority communities and people with disabilities, particularly in the senior civil service. Targets for that have been established.
Through the equal opportunities unit and in consultation with the equality unity, the Executive is considering how best that can be developed, how those targets can be met and how the issue of equality of opportunity can be translated into appropriate employment practices within the Executive.
It is also on record that the equal opportunities unit has established a diversity working group, which includes representatives of the Equal Opportunities Commission, the Commission for Racial Equality, the trade unions and an external employer. The purpose of the group is to promote good practice, to identify some of the causes of under-representation of various groups in the Executive's staff and to consider employment-related issues throughout the office. The lead responsibility is with our colleagues in the equal opportunities unit, with whom we work closely.
We welcome the fact that we have an equality unit and an Equal Opportunities Committee—we are a long way down the road from where some of us were some time ago. I recognise that these are early days, but I am anxious to put in place procedures to maximise the benefits that will arise from those structures, as I am worried that they could be subverted.
You said that the policy divisions are responsible for being aware of equality issues within their own areas and that the role of the equality unit is, therefore, supportive. Does that mean that the policy divisions are not obliged to seek your support and that we will not necessarily have an equal opportunities perspective on legislation that comes through the system?
Do you have a view on the role of the Equal Opportunities Committee? I think that there is a danger that we will begin to operate in parallel universes—the equality unit and the Equal Opportunities Committee are both undertaking work, but you should realise that we have no statutory role to scrutinise legislation. Would it be useful to firm up the role of the Equal Opportunities Committee? For example, would it have been appropriate for the equality consultation paper to have come to this committee before it was sent out? Would it be appropriate for legislation to come to us as of right, as opposed to people thinking that it might be useful if it came to us?
I will deal with your last question first. I am not sure that the equality unit is in a position to comment on the process and procedures of the Parliament or its committees. While the committee may wish to explore that issue, I am not sure that we can offer advice on it.
We are at one with you on the need to get a proper procedure in place. That is at the heart of our work—it is part of what the equality strategy consultation is about. The committee has acknowledged that the unit is still very new. Our role is to work through the principles of the Executive's equality work. Our task is to work out the most appropriate means of fulfilling our role, through consultation and dialogue with those who have experience and expertise and who are affected by equality issues. For example, the unit must ensure that it can provide the best kind of legislative scrutiny by a process of assessing the impact of legislation through the particular policy divisions. We must consider how best to do that and how to improve the current procedure, to which my colleague Louise Donnelly has referred.
In addition to the external consultation on the strategy document, on which we hope to elicit views and contributions, we are conducting internal discussions with the respective policy departments on mainstreaming equalities and on how they can improve and develop their ways of ensuring equality of opportunity through policy making and policy scrutiny.
These issues are live. We share the view that assurances should be given that the right processes and procedures will be put in place in relation to the role of the equality unit. However, we have to distinguish that from the issue of what the Parliament and its committees can do, as that is not a matter on which the equality unit should comment.
Further to Michael McMahon's question, has there been an audit of civil service staff?
Some statistics are maintained, but I cannot give an immediate answer to your question.
One cannot put procedures in place to improve the situation if one does not know what the current situation is. Surely an audit is the first priority in establishing the gender, ethnic minority and disability balance.
Statistics are maintained on employment within the Scottish Executive.
Can those statistics be made public?
I am not sure that they have not been made public in the past. We will pursue that point with colleagues from the equal opportunities unit in the personnel directorate, as it is their responsibility.
Is sexual orientation included as an issue on which the unit will battle against discrimination?
Yes.
Sexual orientation is not mentioned in the briefing paper, although I assume that it would come under equality more generally. The paper mentions equality in relation to gender, race and disability, whereas the committee will concentrate equally on sexual orientation.
The briefing note that is before the committee may be a shorthand version. The definition of equal opportunities that is given in the Scotland Act 1998, under which we work, is expansive and clearly includes sexual orientation. Sexual orientation is one of the unit's considerations and we have held meetings with the Equality Network as part of our engagement with external equality agencies. We may hold a thematic seminar on sexual orientation in April.
Is there any way in which the committee can assist or inform the unit's work? As Johann Lamont said, there may be some duplication of work.
As Lynn Henni said, we are considering how to improve our working relationship, exchange of information and contact with the committee. We hope to extend that work in the months ahead. By sharing and understanding our different areas of work we will add value to what both the unit and the committee have to do in their respective areas. I hope that the unit will be the better for that.
Perhaps Shona Robison, Martin Verity and I can get together with Lynn Henni to discuss how to take that work forward. I thank the witnesses for attending.