Subordinate Legislation
Item 7 is consideration of the Home Energy Efficiency Scheme Amendment (Scotland) Regulations 2001. I welcome Margaret Curran, the Deputy Minister for Social Justice, Murray Sinclair from the office of the solicitor to the Scottish Executive and Geoff Huggins, the head of housing division 3. The regulations amend the Home Energy Efficiency Scheme Regulations 1997 to insert a new part 2 that provides for a central heating programme under which grant may be paid to elderly persons and which will provide central heating, insulation, safety alarms and advice. The Subordinate Legislation Committee considered the order on 4 September, 11 September and 18 September, and a report from that committee has been circulated to members. The report highlights the committee's initial concerns, but indicates that the committee was satisfied with the Executive's clarification of the issue of devolved competency.
It is not usual for the minister to be invited to attend committee consideration of a negative instrument, but we invited her because of the concerns that had been highlighted by the Subordinate Legislation Committee. I am glad that she was able to come.
I propose to ask the minister or the officials, as appropriate, to identify the issues that were being considered by the Subordinate Legislation Committee, and the Scottish Executive's response. We are dealing with the technicalities of the regulations, rather than the broader issue, but I will give members the opportunity to ask questions. We have some constraints on our time. We will start with a statement from the Executive.
Thank you, convener.
I am pleased to be back at the Social Justice Committee and look forward to working with its new members. I expect to be called to the committee on occasion, no doubt to hear congratulations on the wonderful work that the Executive is doing.
I have prepared a statement on the regulations and will ask Murray Sinclair to deal with the legalities of the issue. The concerns of the Subordinate Legislation Committee have been met. As I understand it, the paper that members have before them indicates that the Subordinate Legislation Committee is reassured that any doubts that it had have been answered.
The regulations turn into law the recommendations that were made to ministers by the steering group that was set up to advise us on how best to deliver the programme. That group included representatives of the main power companies, the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, the Scottish Federation of Housing Associations and charities such as Help the Aged, Age Concern and Energy Action Scotland. We are grateful to them for their work in shaping the programme. They brought considerable experience to the work, which will be of great benefit.
There is nothing in the statutory instrument that we have not already publicised. The regulations set out the works and the advice to be offered under the programme. They set out who qualifies and the very few conditions that attach to the scheme. They specify the form in which the application should be made.
From the beginning, we have done what we can to ensure that the scheme is simple to understand and administer. There are no complex means tests or long rules and regulations. Almost all that is required is that the householder or spouse is over 60 at the time of application, has lived in the house for at least one year and expects to live there for another year after the works are completed. Those minimum conditions are necessary to safeguard public funds.
The householders do not have to arrange the works themselves. The managing agent—the Eaga Partnership—will survey the house, determine with the householder the kind of system that is to be installed and arrange for the insulation and central heating to be installed and advice to be given. The householder has no bills to pay—all of that will be done for them.
Members will have heard calls this week for us to publicise the central heating programme more than we have done. Eaga is due to embark on a wide and long-running publicity campaign throughout Scotland, using a variety of media, to ensure that all pensioners who are entitled to take part know about the programme and are encouraged to apply. The Executive has not been idle over the past few months. We published our own guide to the programme, which was circulated widely throughout Scotland and resulted in a record 5,500 applications. Eaga has been in post for only a couple of weeks, but it has sent out application forms to all those people. The work on the ground will begin as soon as replies are received.
We are committed to the central heating programme. It tackles fuel poverty, in which I know the committee has a strong interest, and it helps to protect health against exposure to cold in damp houses. It also provides great opportunities for real work experience and quality training for those who are taken on under the new deal. The programme is big and has big aims. We are confident that when it is completed, the lives of Scotland's most vulnerable households will have been transformed.
I am happy to answer questions, but, with the committee's permission, I will turn first to Murray Sinclair.
Murray Sinclair (Office of the Solicitor to the Scottish Executive):
The principal concern of the Subordinate Legislation Committee was whether the regulations would be within the devolved competence of Scottish ministers—in other words, whether the regulations were part of what had been devolved and whether it was proper and legitimate for us to make them.
It is fair to say that, in asking that question, the Subordinate Legislation Committee was influenced by the fact that the power under which the regulations are made is conferred by section 15 of the Social Security Act 1990. The committee was concerned that the regulations might be thought to be about social security, which—under the terms of schedule 5 to the Scotland Act 1998—is a reserved matter.
Yesterday, officials, including me, gave evidence to the Subordinate Legislation Committee to explain why the Executive's view is that those concerns are not well founded. First, we pointed out to the committee that although the provisions are contained in section 15 of the Social Security Act 1990, other indicators in that act make it clear that section 15 is not thought to be about social security. In addition to making a general reference to the fact that the act amends the law regarding social security, the long title makes a separate reference that indicates that the act makes provision about grants for energy efficiency purposes.
The section in the act that provides for the way in which the Social Security Act 1990, along with other social security acts, should be cited makes it clear that although the 1990 act should be cited and viewed as one of the social security acts, that is the case subject to an exception for section 15. In other words, section 15 of the Social Security Act 1990 is not to be regarded as part of the social security acts as part of law.
That gives a reasonably clear indication that when Westminster was enacting the Social Security Act 1990, it did not think that, in providing section 15, it was legislating for a social security purpose. That is important. The question whether regulations such as these are within devolved competence turns on a test that is provided by section 29(3) of the Scotland Act 1998. That test provides that, in determining whether a matter is reserved or devolved, one has to have regard to the purpose of the provision, having regard to its effect in all the circumstances.
In our view, there is enough by way of a signal in the Social Security Act 1990 that Westminster did not think that the purpose of section 15 was a social security purpose. The terms of section 15 make that clear; they make it clear that in making the regulations, our purpose has to be providing grants for energy efficiency and for improving certain houses that do not have central heating.
On balance, and on the application of the test, the Executive takes the view that the regulations are within devolved competence. On the basis of the report, which we have now seen, it is fair to say that the Subordinate Legislation Committee has concluded that its initial doubt—understandable though it was—was perhaps not well founded.
I am pleased that, when Scotland is independent, we will not have to deal with this palaver.
I welcome the increased publicity for the scheme. What level of take-up does the Executive anticipate? What level of take-up does the Executive think there would have to be before the scheme could be deemed successful?
I assume that you are referring to private sector applications.
Indeed.
The figure of 40,000 eligible private sector householders remains valid. Some of the other issues that relate to the housing association and local authority sectors do not apply to those householders. We have examined the figures and consider them to be reasonably sound assumptions, within perhaps a 5 per cent margin.
When we considered Eaga's track record and how it would meet the specifications of the programme, we were confident that central heating would be installed rapidly into houses. In fact, there is already good news about that. I shall let Geoff Huggins tell the committee about it.
We are confident that developments will soon be in operation. Everyone will appreciate that the programme is phased and that certain processes must be undertaken to ensure that the applications have been sent out, that the systems that are in place are understood and that the power companies work together in harmony. Some of the key partners in the process appreciate that, too.
The scheme was always meant to be a phased programme. We will have to be a good few years into it before we can say that we have reached our target points. However, we are reasonably confident about the figures. I ask Geoff Huggins to give the committee some more details.
Geoff Huggins (Scottish Executive Development Department):
As the minister said, Eaga has sent out 5,500 application forms. It will process those applications and send out surveyors as soon as it can. The committee may have seen Eaga's advertisements in last weekend's press for additional staff to support the project and make the programme a reality. Eaga expects to install the first systems in October; we consider that to be rapid progress, given that Eaga received the contract only on 29 August. We shall see progress being made during the year and we expect Eaga to deliver 3,500 systems this year, which is the commitment that it gave to us.
When we were designing the programme, we listened to what the committee and others said about the capacity within Scotland to deliver a programme of that size. That is why we decided to phase the growth of the programme over the first three years. We hope that about 10,000 systems a year will be installed by year three. That will allow us to carry on into the following years and deliver the overall commitment. We have been impressed by Eaga's approach to the issue following its appointment, and by its eagerness to begin to deliver the programme.
We have been taking evidence from the voluntary sector. Does the minister believe that that sector has a role to play in publicising the scheme? Many voluntary organisations such as Age Concern and Help the Aged have contact with people who would benefit from the scheme. Is the minister aware of the views of the voluntary sector? Does the sector have any worries about the implementation of the scheme, or is it satisfied that the Executive's proposals will work well?
There is a key role in the programme for the voluntary sector. As I said earlier, several organisations were involved in the work of the steering group.
Members will be aware that a debate has taken place in the media about how the programme is running. Age Concern has said publicly that it understands the nature of such schemes and accepts the different key stages that must be undertaken. It referred to the need to raise the public's awareness of the scheme and to encourage people to come forward and participate in it. I would never suggest that the voluntary sector would give uncritical support to the Scottish Executive, nor should it. I am not suggesting for a minute that the sector would not criticise the way in which we go about things.
The voluntary sector recognises that the programme has taken some time to establish. For example, we have had to adhere to the European procurement rules when putting the work out to tender and appointing Eaga. The voluntary sector understands those processes. It appreciates that it plays a critical role in meeting the target group, publicising the information and ensuring that the people for whom the policy was designed will benefit from it. There is a sense of real partnership with the voluntary sector, not only in understanding the process, but in delivering it.
The voluntary sector's involvement in the group that was set up to design the scheme was extremely helpful to our understanding of how the specific client group could best work with the programme. The voluntary sector advised us about the approach that we might take and the questions that we might ask, and made us aware of what had happened on other schemes and where the difficulties had arisen. We found that constructive, and we hope that the voluntary sector will continue to be involved with us in our work on fuel poverty.
As part of the implementation of the programme, Eaga is required to liaise with care-and-repair schemes and others throughout Scotland to tap into that wider group of people who have knowledge and understanding of the client group and to integrate with what is going on elsewhere.
I have two questions of a different nature.
Technically, you are supposed to have only one question. You should try using a conjunction.
Right. Do I have to choose? One of the questions is more of a helpful suggestion.
That is fine.
Is there any tie-in with local agencies for care-and-repair schemes? If somebody were getting their heating and insulation done, it would be good to get all the work done at once. That was my helpful suggestion.
You can also ask your question.
We have been told that the number of units that are delivered under the central heating initiative will be reported back only annually. I am delighted to hear that you reckon that Eaga will start in October. That is quick work. How do you intend reporting back to Parliament about the success of the Eaga scheme? Will that be done annually, or would you be willing to report more often?
Geoff Huggins will talk about care-and-repair schemes, if that is okay.
On double-checking our commitments, I find that we have committed ourselves to annual reports. Members will know that a number of parliamentary questions are submitted on this area of work, not least, I think, by the two Scottish National Party members of the committee.
I deny that.
I stand corrected.
He has not been told that he submitted the questions.
A number of Mr Gibson's close friends submit a number of questions, so we feel that we engage in regular discussion with the parliamentary machine about the scheme. We are happy to do that, as we understand the interest in the scheme. We have engaged in dialogue with the Social Justice Committee, but we have also committed ourselves to a standard monitoring arrangement. Geoff Huggins will clarify that matter, if members want more details. He will also answer questions about the care-and-repair issue.
We have indicated that we will report annually. We will monitor and work with Eaga more closely during the year, but we do not want to simply tie up Eaga in constant discussions with us. We want Eaga to deliver central heating systems, and any additional burden that we impose on it will detract from that. We will ensure that we spend all our financial resources and that that delivers our planned outcome.
We have required Eaga to liaise with local care-and-repair schemes, to build that work in to the process, and to identify whether such work can be done in conjunction with other works or whether care and repair can smooth a way to assist elderly people in the process. That issue was raised with us by the charities that represent and speak for elderly people and we thought that it was a good suggestion.
The members who have not asked a question yet have indicated that they want to do so. I will take them all, if they are brief. We can then move on.
I was grateful for your simple explanation and your assurance that the procedure that people will have to go through will be as simple and lacking in bureaucracy as possible. Two criteria are mentioned, but I am particularly interested in the one that says that people have to commit to remaining in their house for a year after the work has been done. What are the repercussions if they are not?
They have to be. That is part of the condition of having central heating installed.
But circumstances change, minister. The unexpected can happen sometimes, particularly in that age group.
I understand that, but you will appreciate that we are careful with public resources. We want to safeguard against anybody trying to exploit public resources.
That is the answer I was looking for.
That was one of the issues that we spent a long time on when we considered the details of the scheme. We were careful about how we worded the requirement, because the point is that people should intend to remain in their house, not that they should remain in it. We deliberately did not include any arrangements for clawback or for removing central heating systems. We are looking for the honest intention of an elderly person. We suggested that the questions might ask whether someone has plans to move or intends to change their form of accommodation. Those questions are particularly relevant to elderly people, who might not be sure whether they will be around in a year's time.
Moving swiftly on.
It might also be because their circumstances have changed.
It is about striking a balance.
I am pleased and grateful that the Executive and the Subordinate Legislation Committee have been able to iron out the legal difficulties. With respect to Robert Brown, who is a lawyer, the convener summed up the problem when she said that if one asks three lawyers a question, one ends up with seven different answers. I am pleased that we have ironed out the problem.
I suspect that half of the 5,500 applications that were sent out were for the Cumbernauld and Kilsyth area. The private sector has shown a great deal of interest in the scheme, but unfortunately North Lanarkshire Council and the social landlords in that area will not be able to take advantage of it because most, if not all, the local authority houses have central heating.
The minister mentioned that the work is being arranged, carried out and paid for by Eaga. Is it possible for individual households to arrange and pay for work or will the agency always do that?
The scheme is designed so that it does not involve elderly people in cash transactions. That was done because we did not think such transactions were appropriate for the scheme and on the advice of voluntary organisations, on which Geoff Huggins has more detail.
The component parts of the scheme, in particular the work on insulation, will contribute to energy efficiency and to the bigger issue of reducing fuel poverty. The components that are on offer will be more effective as a package. The package is not intended to be a financial transaction in the direct sense.
I hope that I have not provoked Robert Brown too much. Robert, do you have a question?
I have two points, the first of which concerns the value of public money. Does the scheme encourage people to take up regular maintenance checks? Some older people forget how to operate their heating system, although in my experience that problem is not limited to older people. Housing associations have found it necessary to visit people after a heating system has been installed to remind them how to use the system or to set it so that there are no problems. It is important that maintenance is sustained in the long term and that people use their central heating—people should not be put off because they are ignorant or afraid of the system.
My second point concerns labour capacity. Many workers in the gas installation industry are older men and there has not been much recruitment for a long time. One or two colleges have facilities to train young people in that field. How far has that training capacity progressed and are adequate numbers of recruits emerging?
Robert Brown has shown again that his legal experience does not limit his powers of questioning. I am trying to be polite to lawyers.
I do not think that you have succeeded.
Geoff Huggins will answer many of the technical questions. The issue of labour capacity was raised by the committee and in Parliament. We recognise that labour capacity is a serious matter and moves are under way to ensure that the standard of training is appropriate. I have the details of those moves and I will provide members with them.
I was also talking about adequacy of numbers. I know that the numbers are building up, but there is a need to recruit new people for the extra work and maintenance.
Yes. Given the amount of intervention to which the Executive is committed throughout Scotland, that is an issue and it is being dealt with by a variety of projects. We are reassured that the requirements of the scheme will be met.
We feel that our work will meet the targets. Geoff Huggins will say a bit more about maintenance contracts.
The process highlighted the issue of maintenance contracts. However, I should be clear; I know that we sought to include maintenance as a component of the programme to ensure a maintenance period after the initial installation. I would prefer to write to the committee with the exact details about what we did on that issue instead of misleading you, which I am wary of.
On awareness, we are required—and, under the terms of the contract, we require the same of Eaga—to provide energy advice and advice on how to use the system. We have indicated that such advice must also include a follow-up visit, because we are alive to the fact that people will benefit from a central heating system with insulation only if they turn it on, use it effectively and trust that it is better value and more effective than the coal fire or three-bar fire. We have carefully built that provision into the programme.
On recruitment, in agreeing the contract with Eaga, we have required that organisation to satisfy us that it can deliver the programme within the terms of the contract, which it has done. Furthermore, because Eaga has addressed the recruitment question elsewhere in the UK, we are confident that it will do so here. That is another reason why we ramped the programme so that we do less work this year, more work next year and most of the work from year three onwards.
Having heard those answers, I ask the committee to agree that the regulations are approved and that the Subordinate Legislation Committee's report be referred to the Parliament.
Members indicated agreement.