Equal Opportunities Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011

Official Report 327KB pdf

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Petition

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Scottish Prison Population (Catholics) (PE1073)

I welcome members of the public who were not here at the beginning of the meeting.

Item 3 is consideration of PE1073 by Tom Minogue, which calls for the Scottish Parliament to investigate and establish the reasons for the apparently disproportionate number of Catholics in Scottish prisons. The petition was recently referred to us by the Public Petitions Committee.

Members have received papers EO/S4/11/3/2, EO/S4/11/3/3 and EO/S4/11/3/4 in relation to the petition, including a briefing from SPICe and a copy of the petition. Some further information that the petitioner supplied has also been circulated.

I invite members to contribute to the discussion.

I found this a bit difficult. I spent some time going through the information that has been provided, which was helpful, and I do not think that the tack that the petitioner suggested is the most constructive one.

I am deeply concerned at the high proportion of people that we feel the need to incarcerate and I hope that we can take steps to reduce that. Indeed, that is happening. I am also concerned that we still have the level of deprivation that we do. To the extent that it can, the Government is doing something about that.

I would prefer to concentrate on those two matters. We heard under the previous item about the complexity that surrounds definitions and the gathering of data. Perhaps the matter is not as clear cut as the petitioner—who I do not doubt acts in good faith—suggests. Due consideration has been given to the matter and we will pick up on any connected issues as part of the general attempt to make Scotland a healthier, safer and fairer place, rather than by taking the line that the petitioner suggests.

I agree with my colleague John Finnie on how to consider the petition. There is no easy answer to the situation.

When I read the petition and the information that was provided with it, I was struck by the question: is there a regional imbalance in the number of Roman Catholics who go to prison in Scotland? We just heard from the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy about how there is sometimes a shortage of data, and I do not know whether the data on that would be available through the justice system.

I genuinely do not know what the answer is to the petition or what we should do next.

It was interesting to read the part of the SPICe briefing that examined the number of Catholics in the population and the number who are in prison. The Muslim community seems to be in the same boat in that it can be said that there is a disproportionate number of Muslims in prison given their number in the community.

No studies that have examined the question over the past four years have established that there is discrimination per se against Roman Catholics. However, there seems to be some concern about the levels of deprivation among, and the age of, Roman Catholics in prison. If we are thinking purely about the issue that the petitioner brought to us in the first instance, which was discrimination, we have empirical evidence that it is not the case. Therefore, the matter becomes a question of whether the Scottish Government wants to take up the issues of deprivation and age. That is not something for the committee to consider under the petition at this stage.

My view is primarily the same. I did not see it as being a faith issue. It is perhaps endemic that deprivation is higher in certain sectors in parts of Scotland, and the fact that a higher number of people of a particular faith live in those areas is sometimes coincidental. Having read the papers for the petition, I did not see an issue of discrimination there. Like other committee members, I think that it is an issue of deprivation, and perhaps of poverty and age, but not one of faith.

As I am sure all other members of the committee have done, I have taken the matter extremely seriously. I have read the submissions in detail, including the submission since the weekend from the petitioner, Tom Minogue. From the evidence that we have received, I cannot see any evidence of discrimination against any faith group—specifically Catholics—within the justice system. I want to highlight that point.

There have been attempts over many years at different faith groups working together in communities and there have been particular efforts by Government to support deprived communities. If I may say so, I believe strongly that the Scottish Government is determined to do that at the moment, with cross-party support.

It would perhaps be more helpful to look at continuing to work to support all those in deprived communities throughout Scotland than to single out the particular community in question. That is a personal view.

If there are no further comments, I invite committee members to consider the possible courses of action that were indicated in the note from the clerks. We are all aware that the petition has been before the Parliament for some considerable time. First, we could write to the Scottish Government, urging it to undertake further work. Secondly, we could take no further action and close the petition on the basis that its main request, to establish the reasons for the disparity, has been fulfilled. The petitioner could be informed of the outcome and supplied with copies of the correspondence received from the Scottish Government and the findings of the literature review. Thirdly, committee members may choose to take a different course of action that we have not yet discussed. I open it up to members to give views on the petition.

It struck me that the petition has had a really good airing. I do not think that anyone could challenge the fact that it has been examined and re-examined and that the information is very up to date.

I would favour option 2, which I am happy to propose formally. That said, as you touched on in your earlier remarks, convener, the committee has an obligation to continue to consider issues to do with disposals of criminal cases and areas of deprivation. I am sure that that will happen over the course of the session. However, I formally propose option 2.

Do other members wish to speak along those lines?

I second that suggestion.

Do any members wish to propose a different option? It could be one that is already on the table or a different view.

15:00

As I said, the issue is extremely difficult and I do not know what the answer is. Normally in politics, when you are asked a question, you are supposed to know the answer, but I will throw caution to the wind. I am keen to get more information on the regional imbalance that I mentioned, so that we can see what the situation is. In the past, reports have highlighted figures that show that a small number of council electoral wards have the highest percentage of people who go to prison. It seems to be the same wards that are involved time and again. I am keen to establish whether there is a link from those wards to the potential issue that is suggested in the petition. We should find out what the situation is across the country and whether the issue is focused on Glasgow and the west or whether there are issues in other parts of the country.

We should follow option 1, certainly in the short term, so that we clarify some of the issues that I have raised. At some point, we could take a decision based on the information that we receive. I am keen to take option 1, but to add in questions about regional imbalance.

Correct me if I am wrong but, so far, two members wish to close the petition and Stuart McMillan has suggested that we get further research on regional imbalance. Does anybody support that or have another option?

I am happy to support Stuart McMillan’s suggestion that we seek more information. The information shows that the issue is probably less to do with Roman Catholics and much more to do with deprivation. Now that we have discovered that, we should do some work on the issue. We should perhaps consider the issue not only from the Catholic point of view, but from the Muslim point of view.

I am now in a quandary in some respects—I was before I came to the meeting, but the discussion has not helped. In many respects, I support option 2, on the basis that, as we have said, we do not see that there is discrimination on the basis of faith as mentioned in the petition. Therefore, it is time to close the petition. Perhaps further work needs to be done, as Stuart McMillan and Clare Adamson have suggested, but we should close the petition, given its nature. That does not prevent the committee from examining the prison population, the reasons why people are in prison and whether there are specific postcode aspects that are related to deprivation or poverty.

I support option 2.

I suggest that we take option 2, for the reasons that have been mentioned. The issue is related to deprivation in Scotland in certain areas. Obviously, we should close the petition, but with the proviso and clear understanding that the committee will undertake further work. That is reassuring.

In view of what members have said, if members agree, I suggest that we close the petition given its specific aspect, but ask the Scottish Government to do some research into regional and postcode issues in relation to deprivation and the prison population. We would make a commitment to consider that research when it comes back from the Scottish Government. Do members agree to that suggestion?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you very much.

15:05 Meeting continued in private until 16:11.