Culture, Tourism, Europe and External Affairs Committee

Meeting date: Thursday, January 24, 2019

Official Report 562KB pdf

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Correspondence

Agenda item 2 is consideration of correspondence that has been received from Historic Environment Scotland regarding Scotland’s links to the slave trade. The background to the issue is that a member of the public wrote to the committee because they were concerned about the origins of some artefacts. As a result, I wrote to Historic Environment Scotland to ask what its policy position is on the matter. Historic Environment Scotland’s letter outlines that it is about to undertake a research programme into the subject, which I thought was most interesting. Do members have any comments on the letter?

The letter says:

“Given the scope of this work we expect it to take place over a number of years.”

That could be two, three or 10 years. I wonder whether HES expects to report back to us in this parliamentary session or the next.

I note that point.

What is the purpose of the research? HES might find out about the impact of slavery, which ended in the British empire 185 years ago, but how is that different from looking at the impact of Calvinism, the industrial revolution, international trade or all the other things that have had an impact on Scotland’s built environment over the years? What is the end game of the research?

The member of the public who wrote to me, who I think represents a fairly broad range of opinion, made the point that there was no indication that much of the wealth in the property that she had visited had been created on the back of slavery. That happened throughout the UK, not just in Scotland. She was interested in how often such artefacts were presented without that indication, not only by Historic Environment Scotland but by others. I think that it is very interesting that HES is undertaking the research programme and I am very supportive of it.

When I was at primary school, the only aspect of Scottish history that we were taught was about the tobacco lords in Glasgow. Interestingly, there was no mention of slavery; we were taught about the wealth of the tobacco lords, who traded with Virginia. There is an appreciation—certainly in Glasgow—that a lot of wealth originated from such trade.

It is difficult to try to break down where the money that was generated went. It was used for street lighting, pavements, house building and so on; it was not just used to build mansions for the wealthy. It is an interesting project, but I just wonder what its real purpose is. That is all. I am curious more than anything else.

I think that the purpose would be to resolve the fact that, although specific areas of the country might have a relatively broad level of knowledge about the subject, there is an incredibly low level of knowledge in Scotland, overall, about the significance of the slave trade to Glasgow as the second city of the empire, about where a lot of the wealth came from and about where a lot of the physical legacies of the trade still remain.

I entirely take the point about much of the wealth going to infrastructure that has since been replaced or is not particularly notable, such as pavements and street lights. However, a lot of historic buildings are some of the most notable fixtures in Scotland, and it would be appropriate and responsible for us, as a nation, to acknowledge how they came to be, who paid for their construction and where that money came from. If we conducted a survey, I imagine that the level of awareness of the subject among the overwhelming majority of people in Scotland would be incredibly low.

I do not want to go on about the matter, but the same could be said about the people who were cleared from the Highlands, people who came over as a result of the Irish famine or poverty, or people who left their historic farms as a result of the industrial revolution. How many people in Scotland know much about the enlightenment or other aspects of Scottish history, other than about kings and queens? A minority of people might know about the union of the crowns or the Darien expedition. There is an issue about the knowledge of Scottish history and culture generally, but I am curious about why we are looking at this particular aspect as opposed to witch burning, for example, or any other aspect of Scotland’s somewhat awful past. We need to look at Scotland’s history in the round—the good parts and the bad parts. For example, I am interested in how society thought that it was okay to send five-year-old children down the mines or up chimneys.

I take your point.

I will pick up on some of the points that Kenny Gibson has made. In addition to asking about the timing of the proposed project, perhaps we could ask about the proposed budget and its implications. Given that Historic Environment Scotland says that it is “an ambitious research project”, it would be fair to ask how much it proposes to spend.

Tavish Scott, would you like to come in?

I would rather not. [Laughter.]

I believe that the University of Glasgow is undertaking a similar piece of work. It would be useful to ask for a briefing on its proposals, and on what its end game is, to help shape our thoughts on the issue in the future.

I support the work that Historic Environment Scotland is undertaking and I was pleased to see the letter. We could write to HES to ask for more details, because I imagine that the planned research will be linked to properties that HES owns that are open to the public and already display a certain amount of information about the properties and, possibly, the owners. I think that the work will look at adding additional information. HES says that the early planning stage will be at the start of this year, so we could ask for information on what comes out of that and for more detail on what is planned.

I propose that we write back to Historic Environment Scotland to ask for a little more detail, particularly on the budget and the timescales. We will discuss the matter when we hear back from HES. Do members agree with that approach?

Members indicated agreement.

Thank you very much.

10:40 Meeting continued in private until 11:14.