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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 27, 2012


Contents


National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children

The Deputy Presiding Officer (Elaine Smith)

The next item of business is a members’ business debate on motion S4M-03551, in the name of Hugh Henry, on the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children. For understandable reasons, Hugh Henry is unable to lead the debate. Neil Bibby will therefore take his place. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. I would be grateful if members who wish to speak in the debate could press their request-to-speak buttons now.

Motion debated,

That the Parliament notes that the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC) was founded in 1884 by the Reverend Benjamin Waugh; understands that, over the last 128 years, NSPCC has helped more than 10 million children in the UK; agrees with its vision to end child cruelty; understands that child neglect is the most common form of child abuse in Scotland; applauds NSPCC for its new programme, Improving Parenting, Improving Practice, which aims to reduce instances of child neglect by supporting parents to better understand their children’s needs and to improve the bond between parent and child; is pleased that Renfrewshire is one of the eight areas where NSPCC is trailing the programme, which it considers to be groundbreaking; congratulates NSPCC on this initiative, and looks forward to a wider rollout.

12:32

Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)

First, I apologise on behalf of Hugh Henry, who is unable to speak to his motion today as he has, unfortunately, to attend a family funeral. However, he was keen for the debate still to take place.

I am delighted to have the opportunity to talk about an organisation that has been instrumental in the fight against child neglect and abuse, and which has been at the forefront of child protection since the 1800s.

The society was established in 1884 by the Reverend Benjamin Waugh who, having witnessed high levels of child deprivation and cruelty in London, strove to draw public and Government attention to the plight of children. Within five years, the society had branches throughout the United Kingdom, had changed its name to the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children and had played a major role in changing the law to protect children, with the passing of the first prevention of cruelty to children act, which was the Prevention of Cruelty to, and Protection of, Children Act 1889.

Since its establishment, the NSPCC has helped more than 10 million children. It continues to be involved in groundbreaking programmes and its innovative strategies aim to find the best and most effective ways of helping children and of using its resources efficiently to reach as many children and young people as possible. Key areas that the NSPCC is prioritising include physically and sexually abused children, disabled children and children aged under 1.

The NSPCC has had a presence in Scotland through its links with ChildLine Scotland and the centre for learning in child protection. In 2010, Matt Forde was appointed as head of services in Scotland, together with a team of experts to support the efforts of the charity, in partnership with other leading children’s charities, to fund and add new services to those that are already in existence.

This year a number of new initiatives are being heralded that are aimed specifically at helping children and families. Child protection remains at the forefront, with programmes concentrating on the most important issues surrounding the children who are at greatest risk. Programmes that are currently being delivered in Scotland include the improving parenting, improving practice programme and the parents under pressure programme. Improving parenting, improving practice is a groundbreaking new programme that is being trialled by the NSPCC to help parents to improve their relationships with their children. Renfrewshire is one of eight areas where the new programme, which is the first of its kind in the UK, is being piloted. The NSPCC believes that neglect arises as a result of poor parenting skills, together with the inability of parents to bond with their children. The NSPCC holds to the belief that early intervention can help parents to change their behaviour by helping to eradicate emerging problems before they become long-term issues.

Sadly, even in 2012, neglect remains the biggest reason why a child will need protection. The improving parenting, improving practice programme aims to reduce instances of neglect by helping parents of children aged between four and 10 to bond better with their children and to have a greater understanding of their needs. Two approaches are being tested and both are carried out in the family home. Over a two and a half year period, 1,640 families will be supported in eight locations across the UK. One approach uses videos to film parents playing a game or getting involved in another activity with their child. An NSPCC social worker provides feedback to the parents on what they did well and on how to interact better with their child. It aims to build parent confidence and the bond between parent and child.

The second approach supports parents who, due to depression, family conflict or problems with their child’s behaviour, cannot cope and, in turn, neglect the child. Through home visits and telephone support, the NSPCC worker will help parents with stress and anger management.

The approaches will be evaluated to find out which, if either, is more effective in identifying, tackling and preventing neglect at an early stage and I am pleased that the evidence will be shared with the Government and the use of the approaches will be promoted throughout the UK.

Parents under pressure is another programme—it was developed in Australia—that is being delivered in Renfrewshire to vulnerable families. It is an intensive home-visiting programme that runs for 20 weeks and aims to help parents who are undergoing treatment for severe drug and alcohol problems to bond with their babies and improve their parenting skills. The NSPCC is working with families who have children aged under two and a half. A randomised control trial is being used to determine the success of the programme in preventing abuse and improving the parent-child bond. The parents under pressure programme in Australia has proved to be successful in helping to keep children safe and in promoting a closer bond between parents and their babies.

NSPCC programme teams work in conjunction with other agencies that are involved with the family and hope to reduce the number of babies and toddlers who are harmed by parents who have severe substance misuse problems by providing the parents with the coping mechanisms, care, support and education that are necessary to help them to enable their children to have the brightest possible future.

Child neglect is the most commonly reported child protection concern in the UK, with some studies suggesting that as many as 10 per cent of children are at risk. Such neglect is damaging to children in the short term, and in the long term it is associated with some of the poorest outcomes and can have on-going tragic effects from generation to generation. On the other hand, kindness and care are of on-going benefit, and make for a happier society, more dignified treatment and huge savings on health expenditure. Accordingly, organisations such as the NSPCC play a valuable and essential role.

I have great admiration for the achievements of the NSPCC, which raises the vast majority of its own funding, and for the relentless work of the organisation in tackling the problem of child neglect by helping to identify children who are at risk, raising awareness among practitioners and the public, sharing models of good practice, introducing new initiatives and offering early support to children and families.

I am delighted that one of the pilot programmes that are under way at the moment encompasses Renfrewshire. I will continue ardently to support the NSPCC’s campaign in its fight against an issue that sadly has become a major feature of life in this country.

12:39

Jamie Hepburn (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)

I thank Hugh Henry for lodging his motion, because it is very important that we have this debate. I record my condolences to Mr Henry for his sad family loss. Neil Bibby did a very good job in speaking to the motion in Mr Henry’s place.

I thank the NSPCC for the briefing that it has provided to me and other members. It has been very helpful in preparing for the debate. I record my thanks to the organisation for the work that it is doing. In that regard, I am sure that all of us in the chamber wish that we were in a world where children’s organisations such as the NSPCC, Save the Children, Children 1st and Barnardo’s did not have to exist. However, a cursory glance at the statistics on the prevalence and incidence of child abuse and neglect in Scotland and across the United Kingdom suggest that those organisations are, sadly, very much needed.

The NSPCC carried out research into child abuse and neglect in the UK, which involved interviewing a large number of young people. Some of the figures are very stark and bleak. NSPCC says that

“One in four young adults ... had been severely maltreated during childhood”

and that

“More than one in eight children aged 11-17 ... have experienced severe maltreatment by a parent or guardian.”

Nearly a quarter of the young adults that the NSPCC questioned had

“experienced sexual abuse ... by an adult or a peer during childhood”

and

“one in nine young adults ... had experienced severe physical violence during childhood at the hands of an adult.”

As Neil Bibby pointed out,

“neglect was the most prevalent type of maltreatment in the family”

for all the age groups that the NSPCC spoke to when compiling its report.

Those statistics are a stark demonstration of the need for children’s organisations such as the NSPCC. From my experience as a father, I can only be appalled by the incidence of abuse that the NSPCC has reported. I very much welcome the fact that the Scottish Government keeps the issue of child neglect under review—indeed, it published its latest review earlier this year.

I see that I have the time to focus on some of the work that the NSPCC is doing in North Lanarkshire, in which my constituency is located. It is doing some good work to try to prevent non-accidental head injuries in babies. We know that

“Abused babies are more likely to die from head injuries than any other cause”

so I am very pleased to see that the NSPCC is working with the national health service in North Lanarkshire to educate new parents on the dangers of shaking babies. NSPCC estimates that one in nine mothers shakes her baby at some point. We would all accept that it is unlikely that they necessarily do that with any intent to cause physical damage to their child, but it can lead to such damage. The programme will build on the experience of the Women & Children’s Hospital of Buffalo’s programme in the United States of America. I understand that the NSPCC will share its learning from that programme with the Scottish Government, which I am sure will help us to achieve the Minister for Children and Young People’s well-stated and sincere ambition to make Scotland the best country in the world in which to grow up.

12:44

Mary Fee (West Scotland) (Lab)

I would like to start by thanking my friend and colleague Hugh Henry for securing the debate.

The NSPCC has a long and well-documented history of protecting and helping children when they are at their most vulnerable, starting from the beginning of the industrial revolution. With prioritisation for the most vulnerable children at its core and by ensuring that its activities are driven by the principles that were put forward by the Reverend Benjamin Waugh, the NSPCC has contributed significantly to child protection in its 128-year history.

As other members are, I am absolutely delighted that the NSPCC is rolling out its trial programme—improving parenting, improving practice—and that Renfrewshire is part of that roll-out. However, the fact that we are debating this issue shows just how far we have yet to go in protecting those who are most vulnerable in our society.

In the 21st century, we might not expect so-called civilised countries such as Scotland and our counterparts in the rest of the United Kingdom to still have problems such as child neglect or abuse. However, the NSPCC estimates that around one in 10 children has suffered neglect from his or her parents during their childhood and, as of 31 July 2011, there were 2,571 children on the child protection register, with an estimated 50 per cent of those children being aged between zero and four.

That is why the early intervention element of the improving parenting, improving practice programme is absolutely key to helping to reduce the number of children who are affected by neglect.

Research has shown that those in the youngest age category are at the highest risk, but we should also consider the children who are slightly older and may themselves have been in the high-risk category at one point. At present, the amount of research that is conducted around young adolescents is nowhere near the same as the amount of research that is conducted around children in their early years. It was found that, in some parts of the UK, around a quarter of young people who ran away from home did so due to being forced out of the family home, and that some had been completely rejected or abandoned by their parents. For some people, it may be that their parents cannot deal with their behaviour, or even that their parents do not have the skills to look after them. For others, it can be that their parents have rejected them due to their religion or even their sexuality.

The issues for young adolescents may not be the same as those of younger children, but the issue draws attention to the idea of having a holistic approach to tackling child neglect. We need to stop using a one-size-fits-all model. That is something that the improving parenting, improving practice programme aspires to.

We should also note the tremendous amount of pressure that social work departments are under to ensure that children and vulnerable people are adequately protected. With local authorities making cuts to their budgets, it is imperative that we recognise the work that is being done by the NSPCC and other voluntary sector organisations. Those organisations are themselves under budget constraints, but they are also doing more than their fair share. We should also remember that Government has a duty and should not just leave matters to charitable organisations.

Issues of neglect can stem from the likes of substance abuse and domestic violence, but it would be wrong to suggest that those are the only factors that are present. In some cases of neglect, poverty is also present. It is not uncommon or unheard of for parents to leave children at home while they go out to work to help to support their families. With parents unable to afford sufficient childcare due to low wages and local authorities having to cut childcare places due to budget constraints, we can see how the spiral of neglect can—and does—happen. Coupled with cuts to after-school and breakfast clubs, those factors lead to parents having to make difficult decisions that may, in turn, put them in the care of our justice system, which takes the debate around child neglect even further.

I, too, would like to commend the NSPCC and the excellent work that it does.

12:48

Liz Smith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)

I add my thanks to Hugh Henry for securing this debate and recognise his work in this important area over a number of years.

Few issues could be of more importance to this country than the protection of our children. We can never be too vigilant when it comes to defending the young from abuse, abandonment, exploitation, neglect, poverty and harassment. It is, therefore, apt that we should praise the NSPCC for its long and distinguished involvement in the protection of children in our society. It has made a significant impact in its 128-year history. However, as Jamie Hepburn said, that work is, sadly, becoming ever more demanding.

Today in Scotland, 90,000 children live in poverty, one in 10 has suffered parental neglect, one in 100 has suffered severe physical neglect and thousands—I think that we do not know the exact number—live in households where there is either alcohol or substance misuse, or both. For many children, the sad reality is that Scotland is not a safe and secure country in which to grow up.

I have long admired the work of the NSPCC. No one can have failed to be moved by the television campaign that brought home the harsh reality that children across the United Kingdom face. The positive work that the NSPCC undertakes makes a real difference to the lives of many children. The Renfrewshire programme that Hugh Henry highlights in his motion is clearly helping to address child neglect, but it also provides positive support to parents. As Neil Bibby said in his opening remarks, that is probably the most important focus for the programme’s work. Helping parents and future parents to understand and respect their responsibilities in the home and in wider society is crucial, and is probably the most effective preventative work that can be done. As the NSPCC website states,

“Being a parent is one of the most rewarding jobs in the world but it’s also one of the most challenging.”

In some communities in Scotland, we probably now have a third generation of parents who lack good parenting skills. There is a vicious cycle of poor parenting that, in turn, has resulted in unacceptable child neglect. Neglect can occur as far back as pregnancy if the mother abuses substances. Once a child is born, a parent or carer can neglect them by failing to provide adequate food, clothing or shelter, by failing to protect them from physical and emotional harm or danger, by failing to ensure access to medical treatment when needed, or by failing to respond to their emotional needs. I am sure that every member of the Parliament will have come across instances of child neglect in their constituencies. We all know that such cases, by their nature, are difficult and complex and that they highlight the desperate situations in which many children find themselves.

The NSPCC programme has set itself the important goal of supporting more than 1,600 families in seven locations in the United Kingdom over two and a half years. I am sure that the Scottish Government will review the outcome of the programme to see what lessons can be learned. Along with many other members, I have been hugely impressed by the NSPCC’s online resources. I hope that the Scottish Government minister will consider how that first-class help and information can be made more readily available.

I am pleased that good progress is being made to improve child protection and the inspection regime, which is just as important, and that consideration is being given to how we can respond better to vulnerable children’s needs.

I record my congratulations to Hugh Henry on bringing the debate to Parliament.

12:52

Liam McArthur (Orkney Islands) (LD)

I, too, congratulate Hugh Henry on his motion, which deals with an issue on which he has a formidable track record, as Liz Smith said. I also thank him for ensuring that, despite his unavoidable absence, the Parliament still has an opportunity to debate this serious issue. I congratulate Neil Bibby on delivering the speech in Hugh Henry’s absence.

The motion and Neil Bibby’s introduction set the scene well in setting out the breadth and quality of the NSPCC’s work on the exceptionally difficult issue of abuse and neglect. The timing of the debate is fortuitous, as it fits well with the work of the Education and Culture Committee. Following our inquiry into raising attainment among looked-after children, we are moving to an inquiry into the decision-making process in taking children into care. Much of the NSPCC briefing will prove to be invaluable to that inquiry. We have already received a high volume of submissions, for which I am personally grateful.

As members have said, neglect is a tricky area. It is the trigger for the greatest number of instances in which children are taken into care or put under protection orders, but it is not an easy area to navigate. I was struck by a quote from Matt Forde, head of services at NSPCC Scotland, who said:

“Neglect is unique in terms of child abuse because it often relies on proving inaction such as not feeding a child adequately and can require evidence of this over a long period of time.”

That exemplifies how difficult the area is.

I was also struck by the feedback from the child neglect survey. It illustrated four or five principal obstacles to action being taken on neglect, most of which revolved around considerations about the support being provided for parents. We must not lose sight of the need to provide that support, but we need to consider how, within that, we provide the protection that is required for some of our most vulnerable children.

Early intervention is critical. Liz Smith talked about the need for preventative measures to be prioritised, and Neil Bibby and Jamie Hepburn highlighted the innovative work that the NSPCC is undertaking in different parts of the country, which draws on lessons from elsewhere, including internationally.

I received a briefing on the minding the baby initiative, which is being piloted in South Lanarkshire and East Ayrshire. It builds on work that was developed in the United States, and the early signs are fairly promising. The initiative brings together health and social work support and the service is delivered in the home from the third trimester of pregnancy until the baby reaches the age of two. That demonstrates just how early in the process we need to be engaged. The initiative focuses on the most vulnerable. It is offered to first-time mothers under the age of 25 who are struggling with problems such as depression, homelessness, poverty and violent relationships. It provides intense support and visits.

Clearly, the initiative has a financial implication but, as the NSPCC points out, babies are most vulnerable in the first few months of life. Indeed, they are eight times more likely than older children to be killed. Such statistics bring home to me the initiative’s importance. Poor attachment also has negative implications throughout life in areas such as relationship stability, educational attainment, addiction, employment and mental health. We therefore need to look seriously at such investment.

Please conclude.

Liam McArthur

Certainly, Presiding Officer.

I look forward to seeing the outcomes of the pilots in the two areas of Scotland and to considering whether a wider roll-out of the initiative is justified.

I congratulate the NSPCC on making a real difference for some of our most vulnerable children and I thank Hugh Henry again for enabling us to have the debate.

12:57

Anne McTaggart (Glasgow) (Lab)

I, too, welcome the opportunity to speak in the debate and I thank my colleague Hugh Henry for bringing the issue of child cruelty and neglect to the Parliament’s attention.

I believe that every member in the chamber applauds the work that is undertaken by the NSPCC and by Matt Forde—who is a former colleague of mine from Glasgow City Council social work—especially around its new improving parenting, improving practice programme. However, it is every politician’s job to look to find effective ways of combating and preventing child neglect.

The issue is continually misunderstood in our society. We often assume that neglect takes place only in certain types of family, and although the media will always focus on the most extreme cases, the reality is that child neglect can appear in many guises. The NSPCC’s statistics show that one person in six was neglected at some point in their childhood. It is our responsibility to identify and target children before neglect becomes an aspect of their lives.

Although the results of the improving parenting, improving practice programme are pertinent to today’s debate, it is only right to note the other projects and trials that the NSPCC is undertaking in Scotland. For example, the introduction in Glasgow of the New Orleans intervention model, as a partnership between the NSPCC, Glasgow City Council and NHS Greater Glasgow and Clyde, has been a particular success. The model, unsurprisingly, was developed in New Orleans as a mechanism that allows professionals to assess whether children should be reunited with their birth family or placed for adoption. When the model was used in the United States, the results were startling. Children who were assessed using the model were less likely to suffer abuse or neglect when they were returned to their birth family and, conversely, more likely to settle in well with a new family.

The seven-year follow-up of the 80 children who were exposed to the New Orleans intervention showed that, on virtually all mental health measures, the graduates of the intervention were similar to the general population. The hope is that the model could inform child protection decisions throughout Scotland, and I urge the minister to look at the findings from Glasgow.

I am sure that we all agree that preventative measures and intervention at an early age are the key to success. Even before a child is born, its life chances are affected by its mother’s situation. Early intervention must start from the womb and not just from the cradle.

The Scottish Government has taken positive steps. The introduction of the early years framework and of getting it right for every child means that we are now catching more cases of child neglect than ever before. However, as we know, Government strategy alone is not enough to combat the problem; we also need projects at the grass roots to support families.

For example, Parent Network Scotland has had particular success in Glasgow and throughout Scotland—even as far as Shetland, I am led to believe. The organisation’s director is Jackie Tolland, whom I met recently and who is another former colleague of mine. The network runs support courses for struggling parents on parenting matters and to give an introduction to curriculum for excellence. The courses are flexible and are delivered in a targeted way to help parents to support one another in a school environment, while taking into account the needs of children, parents and schools.

Such courses allow people to learn necessary parenting skills from their peers, without the prospect of feeling ostracised. I congratulate Parent Network Scotland on its considered approach and I urge the minister to observe the work that it undertakes.

The issue is too important for members to make party-political points. We have made great strides in recent years, but we must do more. We must all work together to ensure that child neglect is eradicated from Scottish society.

13:02

The Minister for Children and Young People (Aileen Campbell)

I, too, welcome the debate. I thank Neil Bibby for bringing it to the Parliament in Hugh Henry’s absence and I pass on my condolences to Hugh and his family.

I thank everyone for a thoughtful and constructive debate, in which innovative and good work to support children and families has been highlighted. As Anne McTaggart said, this is far above party politics. We can absolutely unite around the aim of providing the best outcomes for children and young people around Scotland.

I found it particularly interesting to hear more about the good work that the NSPCC does to support children, young people and their families. I am delighted that it continues to be committed to services for children and families through the roll-out of its new initiative to support parents and tackle issues of neglect. I am always interested to learn more about the outcomes, as members have asked me to.

I recognise collectively all the other third sector organisations for their contribution to services for children and families across the country. Earlier today, I visited St Eunan’s primary school in Clydebank with Save the Children to learn more about its families and schools together—FAST—programme. I believe that Neil Bibby has seen that project and I encourage others who are interested to engage with Save the Children on it.

Liam McArthur, Jamie Hepburn and others mentioned innovative and good practice in their areas. In my constituency, Healthy Valleys provides local support to parents and families in Clydesdale.

Anne McTaggart made points about the New Orleans project—I, too, have met Matt Forde to discuss it. I am interested in that work, which will be of particular interest to the Education and Culture Committee, given its investigations into looked-after children.

As many of us know from personal experience or from having family members who have children, being a parent is the most rewarding and the most challenging role that we will ever take on. We all want to give our children the best start in life, so that they can develop into healthy, happy, confident and successful individuals who are ready and equipped for the challenges of adult life.

However, I am aware of the difficulties that are faced by some families and children throughout Scotland. As the Minister for Children and Young People, as an MSP and as a mother, I am committed to ensuring that we are getting it right for all children, young people and families by tackling those persistent issues head-on.

As members have noted, neglect remains one of the most insidious child protection problems in Scottish society. The recent study that we commissioned from the University of Stirling showed the scale and nature of neglect, and highlighted that it remains one of the biggest challenges that face our children’s services.

There is no single simple initiative that will resolve those problems, but a variety of actions taken together can make a huge difference for families and for children who are experiencing neglect. Neglect can arise from a range of different factors and can take an enormous number of different guises, as members have highlighted. It often involves substance misuse, poverty and a range of risk factors that can undermine the ability of parents and families to cope. Anne McTaggart, Mary Fee and Jamie Hepburn outlined some of the stark figures in relation to the subject.

We are taking a holistic approach to addressing neglect, which is based on collaborative working. That approach lies behind our forthcoming national parenting strategy and underpins the work that we have done with stakeholders to improve the tools, guidance and support around child protection in recent years. We have piloted a risk assessment toolkit to help professionals to protect vulnerable children, and it will be launched soon.

Liam McArthur mentioned that the debate is pertinent to the work of the Education and Culture Committee, but it is also pertinent to and timely for the work that the Government is doing. Next week, we will launch our national parenting strategy, which aims to ensure that parents get the support that they need when they need it so that they can do their very best for their children. We want parents to feel empowered, valued, supported and confident in their ability to care for their children.

We are clear that the national parenting strategy will articulate the importance of parenting and of parents, because they are the single biggest influences in their child’s life. We will focus on ways in which we can work together to support parents and carers to do their job well.

As part of the strategy, we engaged with more than 1,500 parents throughout Scotland, and we have received strong messages about the support that they need. In response to Mary Fee’s comment about the need to look not only at the early years but at the whole life course of a child, we will also reflect on the needs of parents with adolescent children. That is an important point, as we cannot simply equate early intervention with early years. Our strategy will be a welcome articulation of the real respect that parents need.

We recognise that—as Liz Smith, Mary Fee and others pointed out—poverty has a huge impact on families and children. I certainly do not want any child to be born into or condemned to a life of poverty, and it is not acceptable that 17 per cent of our children still live in relative poverty. We are doing all that we can with the powers that we have to try to tackle some of those issues. Our child poverty strategy for Scotland expresses our commitment to focusing on the need to tackle the long-term drivers of poverty through early intervention and prevention partnerships and holistic services.

We have all coalesced around the idea that we need to use preventative measures and early intervention, and that is a hallmark of what the Government is trying to do. The earlier we can spot the signs of neglect, the better chance we have of taking steps that will prevent the problems from escalating. The message that we received from our engagement with parents around the country was that they need support and help before a problem becomes a crisis.

The early intervention approach is embedded in our getting it right for every child strategy, and we are proposing legislation to ensure that early intervention is mainstreamed across public services in Scotland. That approach will underpin what we want to achieve through the children and young people bill. The consultation on the bill, which closed last week, gathered views from the public and wider stakeholders throughout Scotland.

We hope that that legislation, along with our parenting strategy and our collaborative work with the third sector and others, will ensure that we go on to make Scotland the best country in the world in which to grow up. That will take a lot of work, and it is not an easy challenge to face, but everyone wants to see that happen.

I congratulate Neil Bibby, Hugh Henry and the NSPCC on the work that they are doing to ensure that we can take some small steps towards achieving that greater aim.

That concludes Hugh Henry’s members’ business debate on the NSPCC. Once again, I thank Neil Bibby for leading the debate.

13:09 Meeting suspended.

14:30 On resuming—