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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 25 Sep 2008

Meeting date: Thursday, September 25, 2008


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-1028)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

Later today, I will have meetings to take forward the Government's programme for Scotland. I will also be delighted to host the first part of the British-Irish Council summit, which will bring together representatives of the British and Irish Governments and other groups. I will welcome Rhodri Morgan and Ieuan Wyn Jones—the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Wales—as well as the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, who is making his first visit to Scotland. In particular, I am delighted that it has been confirmed that the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland will attend. After a somewhat difficult period for the Northern Irish Executive, I am sure that the whole Parliament will welcome that news. [Applause.]

Iain Gray:

I am happy to associate the Labour Party with those remarks.

Once again, Scotland's economy and the importance of corporate headquarters lead the news. Fortunately, the First Minister's Council of Economic Advisers meets next week. Unfortunately, it seems to be entirely at odds with him: Frances Cairncross praised the United Kingdom Government's action on HBOS, John Kay said that the takeover was not caused by spivs and speculators, and Sir George Mathewson said that the First Minister's views are ignorant. Who is right: the First Minister or his advisers?

The First Minister:

Actually, Iain Gray is right. He said this time last week:

"I have every sympathy with his anger at speculation and short selling. Frankly, anyone who is today celebrating a profit from what has happened should go to the fire."—[Official Report, 18 September 2008; c 10986.]

All I wanted to do was take their money away; Iain Gray was sending them to hellfire. I think he is right.

Iain Gray:

The First Minister ran that line in the debate yesterday, but it had no impact then and it has had none again today. I went on to say that there were many other factors in the takeover, but the First Minister is right that I agreed that we must pull together to ensure that corporate headquarters are retained in Scotland. When he told EDF Energy that he wanted to keep British Energy's headquarters in East Kilbride but drive its industry out of Scotland, did EDF think that he was being ironic or, as The Sun has it, hypocritical or, as the Daily Record says, bonkers?

It sounds like the newspapers are recycling Andy Gray's quotations. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister:

I was taking both the first and the third in the Labour leadership campaign. Incidentally, I think that Andy Kerr has had a substantial influence on Iain Gray's moving away from the consensus that he showed last week—consensus that is absolutely necessary to win the best deal for Scotland in the merger of HBOS and Lloyds TSB.

I met Vincent de Rivaz in June because it is my duty as First Minister to maintain jobs in Scotland. I am delighted that there was a successful outcome to that meeting. Iain Gray should remember that EDF is not only a nuclear generator; it has a substantial interest in renewables. That is not the case in Scotland at present, but that position will change substantially—at least, that was the bullish and positive view of the company's chief executive. Surely, on that at least, Iain Gray can welcome the retention of jobs and future investment for Scotland.

Iain Gray:

Let us talk about consensus and retaining jobs and headquarters. With HBOS, the First Minister promised to "strain every sinew" to keep its headquarters here. To achieve that, we have to make Scotland as attractive as possible, but there is consensus that his Scottish national income tax plan will do the opposite. Listen to the Confederation of British Industry, which said that local income tax

"could undermine the Scottish Government's avowed purpose of growing the economy … and … attracting talent and corporate headquarters to Scotland".

All business organisations and the trade unions agree—there is consensus. [Interruption.]

Order.

Will the First Minister strengthen Scotland's case for the HBOS HQ right here and now by committing today to ditch his damaging local income tax plans?

The First Minister:

Iain Gray accused me of repeating my lines from yesterday, but he seems intent on repeating Wendy Alexander's lines from the past year.

Local income tax carries the consensus support of the Scottish people. We will see in due course whether it carries the support of the Scottish Parliament. It should do so, because not just the vast majority of people and families in Scotland but the vast majority of workers in the financial sector would benefit from fairer and lower local taxation. Of course, Iain Gray and many people in the chamber would be among those who would pay a bit more, but I am sure that that is not what colours the Labour Party's attitude to the question of local income tax. Surely Iain Gray should join the consensus with the Scottish people, who think that the days of the council tax should be over and that local income tax should be introduced.

Iain Gray:

The First Minister well knows that the most recent polling evidence says that only 46 per cent of the people support his tax proposals. I repeat this statement because it matters: thousands of jobs are at stake. Those workers are concerned that if we fail to keep those jobs here in Scotland, they will not pay any tax—certainly not income tax—because their jobs will have been lost. I say to the First Minister, think of the signal that his proposals send to Lloyds TSB and those workers about how serious he is about making the case for those jobs. Does he care enough? Is he big enough? He said that he would "strain every sinew", but in reality he is standing idly by. I ask again: will he drop the discredited local income tax now?

The First Minister:

I could be accused of many things over the past week, but I do not think that standing idly by on this issue would be one of them. The reality is that, as we sought to build a consensus—indeed, I acknowledge Iain Gray's role in that wonderful summit meeting on Monday—the third candidate in the Labour leadership election was out trying to undermine it, as we saw yesterday.

The jobs and HQ issues in HBOS and across the Scottish economy are fundamental. As First Minister, I should demand that the chamber unite behind the positive Scottish case that we are presenting to HBOS.

Whatever anyone might say about the reasons why we are where we are, we have certainly got here under the watch of the United Kingdom Government and the current monetary authorities. However, how much better it would be in making the case to any corporate headquarters if we could argue for a competitive corporation tax in Scotland that would bring jobs, investment and real decision making into this economy.

You can make a brief point, Mr Gray.

There is consensus that the local income tax proposal damages the case for keeping the headquarters here. I ask the First Minister to join the consensus and show that he is serious about that case.

The First Minister:

If you have an extra question, it is best to change the record.

The consensus among the Scottish people is that they want a fairer, local tax. The local income tax will benefit the vast majority of families in Scotland and the vast majority of workers in the financial sector. [Interruption.]

Order.

That is one reason why it is so popular.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-1029)

I have no plans to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland in the near future. Of course, there is a question over whether, by this time next week, we will be in a different constitutional environment as far as that post is concerned.

Annabel Goldie:

Yesterday, the Lloyds TSB business monitor described Scotland's economy as having ground to a halt in the summer and warned that overall business turnover will slump in the next six months. The Scottish housing industry estimates that it has lost 30,000 jobs, and house sales have plummeted. The housing industry is crying out for help and house owners are desperate. What they need is help, not the hindrance of the costly and unwanted home report. At this critical time, why does the First Minister insist on saddling every house seller in Scotland with a levy of more than £800?

The First Minister:

It is the majority view of the Parliament that it is useful to introduce a measure that undoubtedly will help house buyers and give them more certainty than they have at present. That is the basis on which the housing report is being introduced.

Annabel Goldie:

I was a lawyer, not an economist, but even I know that before someone can buy a house, someone has to be selling it.

Let us face facts. The home report pilot was an unmitigated disaster. The price has rocketed by more than a third, and the report has a shelf life of only a few weeks. The Scottish Consumer Council says that it will hit the lowest paid the hardest, and there are warnings that it will destroy our already fragile Scottish property market, yet the First Minister still thinks that it is a good idea.

Against the background of that overwhelming condemnation, and for the sake of desperately worried home owners, will the First Minister scrap this deeply damaging proposal? If he does not have the courage or even the humility to do that, will he at least postpone this nightmare?

The First Minister:

I disagree with Annabel Goldie: the point at the moment—it seems pretty obvious—is that there is no shortage of house sellers, but there is a distinct shortage of buyers, not because of wish, but because of the availability of mortgages. The position in Scotland is extremely serious, given the volume of houses that are being sold. Prices are holding up rather better than they are elsewhere, and indeed volumes are holding up slightly better, but the position is extremely serious.

I say to Annabel Goldie that the way to tackle that is for liquidity and interest rates to be such that people have available to them the mortgages that they need to enter the housing market, but any help that house buyers can get at present would be extremely useful.

I do not accept Annabel Goldie's general comments about the Government's attitude. When, in August, we announced a series of measures to assist the Scottish economy—because we anticipated some of the dark developments that have taken place in the downturn—we introduced specific measures to help the housing market. On 19 August, Jonathan Fair, the chief executive of Homes for Scotland, said:

"The Scottish Government has demonstrated a willingness to address the devastating impact that the credit crunch has had on the housebuilding industry … Now it is time for Westminster and the Treasury to wake up to the UK-wide housing market crisis by dealing with the base issue of liquidity".

Can we not unite behind that statement?


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-1030)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Tavish Scott:

Today's assessment of Scotland's economy makes grim reading. Business turnover is predicted to fall by 28 per cent in six months. However, things are already tough for families and individuals. Electricity costs are up by 18 per cent, gas is up by 28 per cent and food is up by 14 per cent. By what percentage has the First Minister changed his budget plans to respond?

The First Minister:

If I remember correctly, Tavish Scott is a former convener of the Finance Committee and a former minister. I would have thought, therefore, that at some point in his career he might have stumbled on the fact that the Scottish Parliament, unfortunately, lives on a fixed budget. If we increase expenditure in one area, we have to reduce it in another, and if, as Mr Scott has advocated, we cut taxes, we have to reduce expenditure. At the moment, we do not have the capacity in the Parliament to reflate the economy, which undoubtedly is something that both of us support.

If we accept those facts as given, and that accelerating the capital investment plans has been welcomed as a useful idea by the housing industry in Scotland, we should accept that we ought to reinvigorate our joint approach to obtain real economic teeth and financial powers for this Parliament.

Tavish Scott:

I can help the First Minister: his budget makes 0.3 per cent of a change. He needs to choose; there is an offer on the table. Do his new quangos and their budgets really come first? Families and individuals face big challenges now and through the winter, but the First Minister's budget is 99 per cent old news. If this was anyone else's Government, he would accuse it of idly standing by. People do not understand why Government will not tighten its spending belt when families have to do so every day. The Parliament has the powers to cut income tax and deliver hundreds of pounds back into people's pockets, and this is the time to meet the real challenge that people face. I am up for it—is the First Minister?

The First Minister:

We have, of course, frozen the council tax in Scotland to help people with their household bills and we have substantially reduced the business rates burden to help employment and the economy—which, incidentally, might be one reason why the Scottish employment figures look rather better than those south of the border.

As for the Liberals' new-found enthusiasm for a 2p income tax cut out of the Scottish budget, the measure was initially costed at £400 million. However, within 24 hours, the cost had reached £800 million, which indeed is the right figure. I could do a range of things to find that £800 million, but it would mean deep cuts to some of Scotland's essential services. Is it not incumbent on the leader who has suggested making £800 million-worth of cuts to tell us how on earth he thinks he will find that sum?

Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab):

What words of comfort and support can the First Minister offer British Energy employees in Scotland and, indeed, in my East Kilbride constituency, given his Government's closed mind on the issue of a balanced energy policy and given that his own policy will make Scotland an energy importer? As his Government threatens those jobs, many of which are highly skilled, can those workers expect proper support or the cold shoulder of SNP dogma?

The First Minister:

They can expect the early activity that this Government has undertaken to secure those jobs and which should be welcomed by most constituency members.

On the future energy profile, there are two things that we should be encouraged about, the first of which is the rapid growth in the renewables sector in Scotland. Over the past year or so, this Administration has approved 14 major projects: the average for the previous Administration was three. Indeed, in its last year, it managed to approve only one. The growth of investment in energy projects is absolutely fundamental.

Secondly, I say to Andy Kerr:

"I do not believe that the case for nuclear power has been made. I just don't believe it".

Those are not my words, but the words of Sarah Boyack, the Labour party's energy and environment spokesperson.

Alasdair Allan (Western Isles) (SNP):

Following this week's announcement that Lighthouse Caledonia Ltd is reviewing its fish processing operations, putting at risk 130 jobs in my constituency, what action is the Scottish Government taking to find a more secure future for that area and for related industries in the Western Isles?

The First Minister:

The Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and the Environment is leading a co-ordinating group with the fish processing sector in Scotland.

The road equivalent tariff experiment, which the local member has welcomed, has been introduced to find out whether reducing transport costs might help the Western Isles economy. We look forward to making that substantial move, which I hope will help the competitive position not just of fish processors but of all industries on the islands, and so should be welcomed by the whole chamber.


Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency

To ask the First Minister what progress the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency has made in tackling the supply of drugs. (S3F-1043)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

In 2007-08, the Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency seized 220kg of class A drugs, which had an estimated street value of £15.8 million. That quantity is nearly three times the quantity that was seized in the previous year.

That information was published in the agency's annual report on Monday. Copies of the report are available in the Scottish Parliament information centre.

Angela Constance:

I congratulate the SCDEA on its success with drugs seizures, but does the First Minister agree that we will not begin to win the battle against drugs until we successfully disrupt the organised criminal gangs, including the Mr Bigs of the criminal underworld, who are responsible for spreading so much misery in communities throughout Scotland?

The First Minister:

Yes, I do. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice and the authorities are certainly going after the Mr Bigs, as the member describes them, and the criminal gangs, as well as the lieutenants and foot-soldiers who do the dirty work. We set up the serious organised crime task force to ensure that Scotland can respond robustly to the threat that organised crime poses, and the criminal justice and licensing bill will include new offences that target those who direct serious organised crime, those who work for serious organised crime groups and those who live off the profits. The bill will also encourage the greater use of financial reporting orders, which will require convicted gangsters to report their financial dealings to the police. That will, of course, be a significant help in increasing the already substantial and increasing cashback for communities funds, which have been of great use to many sporting organisations and communities throughout Scotland.

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD):

Does the First Minister accept that although tackling the supply of drugs is welcome, it must be matched by progress on cutting the demand for drugs? Has his Government mapped the availability and effectiveness of drugs projects throughout Scotland that specialise in tackling drug addiction and reducing the number of people who start to use drugs? In particular, does he recognise and support the key role of stable voluntary sector projects in that area?

The First Minister:

Yes, I do, and I approve of them. The member will know that funding has been substantially increased in the area. He will also know that the new drugs strategy—which was taken forward after great, consensual talks that were led by Fergus Ewing and encompassed the range of political parties—has met much more acceptance and consensus across the parties than the previous policies did.

Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab):

An important new weapon in tackling drugs crime will be the bringing together of the key drug enforcement agencies at a new crime campus at Gartcosh. When will that campus open? Will the First Minister reassure me that it is not being delayed for two years?

The First Minister:

We are making good progress with that project. We have appointed a design team, a cost consultant, a construction designer and a management co-ordinator, who are working with the agencies that the member mentioned to develop the full project brief and produce designs and associated costings. All of that work is necessary before we can appoint the construction team and firm up the final dates for completion. We are still working towards an occupation date of 2011.


Higher Education (Funding)

To ask the First Minister, in light of concerns regarding universities' budgets from October, what the Scottish Government will do to avoid a funding crisis in the higher education sector. (S3F-1035)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The Government has already taken action to invest in Scottish higher education. As Claire Baker will remember, one of our earliest actions in government was to provide an additional £100 million of capital investment in the university and college estate over and above the plans of the previous Administration. We are investing more than £1 billion a year in Scotland's universities and increasing the allocation to universities by 2.9 per cent in real terms across the spending review period. The member will also know that, on top of that, universities have benefited from a further £20 million to help them meet pay pressures in the last year of the current settlement.

Claire Baker:

The First Minister paints a positive picture of funding in the university sector, but the principal of the University of Edinburgh, the convener of Universities Scotland, all five rectors and even the First Minister's Council of Economic Advisers have recently expressed concern about the funding of universities in Scotland. Indeed, only this week, we heard news of up to 35 redundancies at Queen Margaret University. The truth is that the First Minister must accept some responsibility for the funding problems that universities in Scotland are facing. Does he accept Universities Scotland's statement that universities are facing a real-terms cut of 0.2 per cent next year? Will he admit that the Scottish Government's poor universities settlement left no room for manoeuvre to absorb the unplanned costs that are now being faced?

The First Minister:

Claire Baker mentioned unplanned costs. Those unplanned costs are facing an inflation rate of 4.7 and 4.8 per cent. Perhaps she should join this entire chamber in suggesting to the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister that that has put pressure on the Scottish Government, local government, the universities and every family in this country.

I call Christina McKelvie.

The First Minister:

The real test is whether the percentage of public spending that is available to universities is increasing across this Administration. In that regard, I am delighted to tell Claire Baker that, compared with the situation under the Government that she supported, the percentage has gone up from 3.73 per cent to 3.79 per cent. In other words, the universities' share of public spending is increasing under this Administration compared with under the previous Labour-Liberal Democrat Executive.

Apologies, First Minister; I thought that you had concluded your answer.

I call Christina McKelvie.

In today's economic environment, does the First Minister agree that Scotland's universities will be essential in delivering technological and academic advances that will result in renewed economic growth in Scotland?

Yes, I do. [Laughter.]

Order.

The First Minister:

I am not quite finished, Presiding Officer.

Out of the many wonderful projects that are being pioneered by universities, I commend the new informatics centre that was opened at the University of Edinburgh a couple of weeks ago and recommend that members visit it. Not only is it a wonderful example of Scotland leading the field in a major part of the new economy, it is a university and science project that is creating a large number of new companies in Scotland. Not only is it fantastic for the University of Edinburgh, it is fantastic for the whole country.

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):

Does the First Minister agree that, although the Government's joint future thinking task force was, in some ways, a useful exercise, its work has not alleviated concerns about the funding of universities? If so, does he agree that it is now time for an independently chaired review of higher education, so that all voices in the sector can be heard, including those of students, lecturers and the business community, rather than only those of university principals and the Government?

The First Minister:

We have regular dialogue with all those interest groups across higher education. I remind Murdo Fraser, since he gave the task force such a poor welcome when it was announced, that the university principals wanted it to be established so that its valuable work could be completed and discussed in a reasonable period of time. If we had followed Murdo Fraser's advice, we would still be waiting for the report.


Nursery Education (Teachers)

To ask the First Minister what progress the Scottish Government is making on the Scottish National Party manifesto commitment to provide every nursery-age child with access to a fully qualified nursery teacher. (S3F-1053)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

We are making very fine progress indeed, in line with our manifesto commitment to improve the position of pre-school children in Scotland. We have, for example, made the most significant enhancement to pre-school education since 2002, by increasing the entitlement to 475 hours from the start of the last academic year, and we have announced that the entitlement will increase to 570 hours from August 2010. In addition, we have made a commitment to deliver access to a teacher for all pre-school children, and we have included that commitment in the historic concordat with local government.

Margaret Smith:

We know that the proportion of staff who are registered nursery teachers has actually dropped.

Those of us who shared a platform with Professor Harvie at the University of Stirling last Friday know, thanks to him, that the SNP's manifesto promises on student debt were made in the knowledge that they would not be met. Now, it is the SNP's promises on nursery education that are being broken.

This week, Ronnie Smith of the Educational Institute of Scotland accused the Scottish Government of

"presiding over the dilution – in some areas the dismantling – of one of the most valuable and successful strands of Scottish education."

Will that appalling assessment finally shake the First Minister out of his complacency and spin on this important issue?

The First Minister:

I am delighted to tell Margaret Smith that the numbers of registered teachers in pre-school education are not dropping. The table that was published included some 200 teachers who had been double-counted by the previous Administration because they taught in more than one school. Margaret Smith should welcome the fact that the real figures for teachers—who are delivering the enhanced hours—are, under this Government, substantially increasing.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—