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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 22 Apr 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, April 22, 2004


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he next plans to meet the Prime Minister and what issues he intends to raise. (S2F-806)

I have no immediate plans to meet the Prime Minister.

Mr Swinney:

On 21 January 2002, the Deputy First Minister—the then Minister for Justice—announced plans to privatise the escorting of prisoners. He said:

"Public safety will not be compromised under any circumstances".

Does the First Minister accept that awarding the contract to a company that, according to the current Minister for Justice, did not have enough staff, training or management controls was a breach of Jim Wallace's promise? Why was that contract awarded in those circumstances?

The First Minister:

No, I do not accept that the assurances that were given by ministers have been put to one side in this instance. The Government has a clear policy to ensure that the 300 police officers who can go back out on operational duty are delivered in our police service and that those police officers are doing the job that they are signed up to do, which they chose as a career path, and are not transporting or supervising in waiting rooms prisoners who can be transported or supervised by others.

At no time in advance of the contract, during the negotiations for the contract or since has there been any suggestion that the police force in Scotland would be anything other than in charge of the maintenance of order in our courtrooms. The Minister for Justice made that perfectly clear yesterday afternoon.

At all times, the Executive is absolutely committed to ensuring that, in Scotland, we reduce crime, tackle crime, prevent crime and catch criminals. We are committed to ensuring that the police officers of Scotland can do their job and do the job that they want to do.

Mr Swinney:

I have here a statement from Jim Wallace, from January 2002, in which he says beyond any question, in the context of escorting prisoners to be contracted out:

"Public safety will not be compromised under any circumstances".

The Minister for Justice conceded to Parliament yesterday that public safety had been jeopardised by the escape of James McCormick. She said:

"Reliance had been working on its implementation plan for some time before contract signature … It is now abundantly clear that Reliance seriously underestimated the challenge that it would face".—[Official Report, 21 April 2004; c 7528.]

For 14 months the implementation plan was being worked on and it all went horribly wrong on implementation. If it is abundantly clear to ministers that Reliance is not up to the contract after a convicted murderer has escaped, why did ministers not make it their business to be abundantly satisfied that Reliance was up to the job when the contract was signed in the first place? Why did ministers not make it their business to determine whether Reliance could handle the contract? Why did the Government award a contract that has failed to deliver public safety?

The First Minister:

The contract will not fail. Reliance will—as it properly should—be forced to deliver on that contract. That is the proper job of the Minister for Justice and those who are responsible for the service.

I remind Mr Swinney that a policy issue is at stake. What has happened in the past three weeks is not an argument against reform; it is not an argument to take police officers off the beat and put them back in the vans looking after the prisoners. It is an argument for more reform, not less. It is an argument for ensuring that our courts are properly run. It is an argument for ensuring that, when prisoners go to one court in the morning, they do not go back to the prison and then on to a different court in the same city in the afternoon. It is an argument for ensuring that the right reforms are in place throughout our court and prison services. If we ensure that that happens, we will release not only up to 300 police officers as a result of this contract, but many more police officers for operational duty to serve the public. That is where they belong and that is where they want to be.

Mr Swinney:

I do not know whether the First Minister has noticed, but many police officers in Scotland today are chasing a convicted murderer who has escaped because of the reforms. That is not putting more police on the beat; it is putting police out to pursue murderers who should properly be in the jails of Scotland.

The point that I am trying to get the First Minister to accept is that, when the Government agreed to the contract, it promised the public that public safety would be guaranteed. Whichever way we look at the matter, public safety has been jeopardised, because a convicted murderer is currently free in our society today. I am asking the First Minister to explain to Parliament why he signed up to a contract that has jeopardised public safety when his ministers promised that they would do no such thing.

The First Minister:

Public safety has been jeopardised in the case of that individual not by the contract, but by the implementation of the contract. That is why the company will rightly face penalties for not implementing the contract properly. That is exactly the right procedure.

I notice that Mr Swinney's former chief executive said this week that the Scottish National Party is all over the place because it only ever complains about things and does not come up with solutions. What we need in Scotland today are solutions that not only reform our court and prison services, but get our police officers and our police service doing the job that they want to do. We need every one of those 300 police officers on operational duty. We must ensure that they can get out there, do the job that they want to do and catch not only this one criminal, but many more criminals. More reform—not less—is what is needed in our prison service. The SNP will have to wake up to that some day.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-813)

The next meeting of Cabinet will, as ever, discuss our progress towards implementing the partnership agreement to build a better Scotland.

David McLetchie:

I thank the First Minister for that answer, but I am sure that the Cabinet will want to discuss further the implications of the Minister for Justice's statement to Parliament yesterday and the fact that a brutal killer is still on the loose in Scotland.

The Reliance fiasco is bad enough, but it is compounded by the fact that the Executive releases hundreds of prisoners early on licence who go on to commit further crimes. This week, we heard of a brutal attack on a nurse, Pauline Dunnery, at her place of work in Perth royal infirmary by an assailant who had been released early and was out on licence. Figures released by the Executive show that the number of prisoners recalled from licence reached a new high of 239 in 2002. Does the First Minister accept that his publicly expressed confidence in his Minister for Justice is no longer matched by public confidence in the justice system?

The First Minister:

One of the reasons why I have so much faith in the Minister for Justice is that it was she who set up the Sentencing Commission, which will deal with the very problem that Mr McLetchie outlines. There is a clear need to deal with the issue of early release on licence and there is a clear need to consider what happens when potential prisoners are out on bail when sometimes they perhaps should not be. We established the Sentencing Commission to consider those issues properly with the judiciary and with those in the system whom I believe we must have on side to make the policy work.

We must ensure that the system works for victims and for witnesses and does not work for the prisoners or the criminals. That is the absolute priority for this Government and that is why we are moving forward so quickly and effectively in tackling the issues that Mr McLetchie regularly raises. We share the same interest in the issues, but our job is to find solutions, which is what we will do.

David McLetchie:

The First Minister talks about tackling issues quickly, but the establishment of the Sentencing Commission is a recipe for delay and inaction on the part of the Executive and the Parliament in dealing with the scandal of early release. As the First Minister is well aware, I have said in the Parliament on numerous occasions that one simple way of restoring confidence in the justice system in Scotland would be to end the scandal of early release and to give women such as Pauline Dunnery the protection that they deserve. Pauline Dunnery was a victim of a crime that would never have happened had her attacker still been in prison serving the sentence that was handed down to him in court. That is the fact of the matter. Will the First Minister tell us when his Sentencing Commission will report, when some action will be taken and when the Minister for Justice will take steps to restore a reputation that has been so badly battered this week?

The First Minister:

We have made clear in the past the timetable to which the Sentencing Commission is operating. The important thing is to ensure that we have a system that works in practice for witnesses and victims in Scotland's courts. It is fundamental to the operation of that system that we do not just, through knee-jerk reactions in the chamber, adjust laws in relation to sentencing. In the tradition of the Scottish system, we should ensure that the changes are applicable in practice. That is why we gave a commitment this time last year to establish the Sentencing Commission and why we ensured that within six months of the election the Sentencing Commission was up and running. That is why the Sentencing Commission has been given clear priorities for decisions and action, including dealing with the issues of people who are released on bail and people who are released early on licence. That is why when we get the recommendations—if they are tough enough—we will implement them and do it quickly.


Local Taxation

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Executive's response will be to the march to be held in Glasgow on 24 April 2004 in support of the abolition of the council tax in favour of an income-based alternative. (S2F-831)

We live in a democracy where, I am happy to say, people are free to march to express their views. I hope that all those who are on Mr Sheridan's march on Saturday are fully aware of what they would pay under any Government that he ever led.

Tommy Sheridan:

A number of nursery nurses will be on the demonstration on Saturday. Given that they have had to strike against their pathetically low pay, I can give them an absolutely cast-iron assurance that they will pay less under any Government led by me or any other Scottish Socialist Party representative. Does the First Minister think it fair that a nursery nurse or a pensioner on a low income in Scotland is paying a higher proportion of their income on council tax than he is, when he is on a very good income of £123,000? Is it fair that he pays a lower proportion than them, despite the large difference in income?

The First Minister:

I find it astonishing that Tommy Sheridan wants to confirm in the chamber today that he assumes that, under any Government in Scotland run by the Scottish Socialist Party, nursery nurses would always be low paid. My ambition is that Scotland's nursery nurses will be better paid and have better status. That is why we have given them a firm commitment that, if the current dispute is resolved quickly, we will establish a national review of their position.

We also need to remember that—I hope that Mr Sheridan will point this out with his usual eloquence in his speech on Saturday—80 per cent of the cost of local government services in Scotland is paid through the national taxation system. All of us who are working contribute to that on the basis of our income. That is why the combination of central and local taxation is a good one. I am totally opposed to Tommy Sheridan's proposal that all local government taxation in Scotland should be centralised—collected by, organised by and paid to national Government—without any aspect of local democracy. That is fundamentally contrary to the socialist principles to which many of us adhere and I am surprised that it is in line with his.

Tommy Sheridan:

In a friendly manner, I suggest that the First Minister might want to go to the doctor to get his ears tested. I gave a cast-iron assurance that nursery nurses would pay less under a Scottish Socialist Party Government; I did not say that they would continue to be scandalously low paid, as they have been for the past seven years under the Labour Government at Westminster and the Government in Scotland.

The First Minister wants to avoid the question. Is it fair that MSPs on £50,000 a year, ministers in the Cabinet on £80,000 a year and the First Minister on £123,000 a year pay less as a proportion of their income than low-paid nursery nurses and pensioners pay? Is it not about time that the First Minister stopped protecting and pampering the well paid and the wealthy and started to protect pensioners and the low paid in Scotland? The people who will march on Saturday in Glasgow will call for the axing of the council tax and its replacement with an income-based alternative so that people such as the First Minister and I pay more whereas pensioners and low-paid workers pay less. Does the First Minister agree with that call?

The First Minister:

I have said to Mr Sheridan before that there is a case for property-based taxation in our society, although that is not necessarily a universal view in the partnership parties. Such a tax is easy to collect and is on one element of an individual's wealth and status in society. It is right that such a tax should be applied locally. I believe strongly that all of us should make a contribution to the cost of local services, which we do through income tax and other taxes that we pay nationally. In Scotland, nationally collected taxation contributes 80 per cent of funding for local services. The system is economically justifiable, although it needs to be reviewed, which will happen through the independent review of local government finance.


Draft European Constitution

To ask the First Minister how the responsibilities of the devolved regions and nations are reflected in the draft European constitution. (S2F-827)

The draft European constitution improves the position of nations and regions at European level. It recognises our role as legislators and sits alongside improvements in consultation on, and assessment of, European decisions.

Maureen Macmillan:

Does the First Minister agree that our membership of the European Union has brought incalculable benefits to Scotland, particularly to the Highlands and Islands, which I represent? Does he agree that one great benefit that the EU brings to Scotland is the close co-operation between member states in tackling crime and justice issues and that that aspect of our membership should be better appreciated?

The First Minister:

I believe strongly that there is a case for Europe-wide decision making not just on matters of environmental and economic importance, but, at times, to ensure that we tackle international crime and terrorism effectively. The new European constitution will help us to achieve that. I look forward to the debate on the constitution in relation to any referendum that might take place. The debate will be between those of us who believe in a progressive Europe that secures peace and delivers jobs for Scotland and those in the very strange alliance that may campaign in the no camp.

Alex Neil (Central Scotland) (SNP):

Has the First Minister made representations to the Prime Minister to ensure that the Scottish result in the referendum on the EU constitution will be counted and announced separately? Once the constitution has been finalised by the heads of Government, will the First Minister consider undertaking a fundamental assessment of its impact on the economic and social life of Scotland?

The First Minister:

The first part of Mr Neil's question is a matter for the Prime Minister. On the second part of his question, which raises an issue on which we have had exchanges in the past, we regularly assess the impact of such matters on Scotland's economy.

I would be interested in having an exchange at some point about where Mr Neil stands on the proposed referendum. He has a history of being progressive on some of these matters, in comparison with some of his colleagues, and I would be interested to know whether he will be standing with those of us who believe in a peaceful and prosperous Europe or with the Tories, the Trotskyists and, perhaps, some of the other nationalists in the no campaign in the referendum.

Phil Gallie (South of Scotland) (Con):

Given the First Minister's response to Maureen Macmillan, will he explain to me what elements of this Parliament's devolved responsibilities are protected from EU interference at Commission level by article 17 under title III of the constitution?

The First Minister:

It is interesting that a number of members of the Opposition are prepared to come out and campaign against the EU constitution because the constitution will develop the rights and the responsibilities of this Parliament and other devolved Administrations.

The key provision in the new constitution, which I hope survives the negotiations that are taking place over the next three months under the Irish presidency, is that which embeds subsidiarity at its heart. That will give this Parliament and other devolved Parliaments and Governments across Europe protection for their responsibilities at the European level that they have never had before. That is an important step forward. If Mr Gallie is going to be on the opposite side of the argument during the next two years, I relish the opportunity to enter into debate with him.

Richard Lochhead (North East Scotland) (SNP):

Will the First Minister outline what he believes are the red-line issues for Scotland, given the on-going negotiations over the draft constitution, especially as there are major concerns in Scotland about the references to fishing and energy? Does he agree with many in the chamber that the referendum strengthens Scotland's hand because Tony Blair will require the support of Scotland to get a yes vote?

The First Minister:

The Scottish National Party and others have been guilty of gross misrepresentation of the constitution's position on both fishing and energy. Exactly as the Prime Minister said on Tuesday that he relished the opportunity that the referendum campaign offers to expose the myths and misrepresentations of the Tories, I am willing to take on those arguments in Scotland.

On fishing, the new EU constitution does not change the current provisions at all. At long last, fishing is starting to be decentralised and regional management in the North sea and elsewhere is possible. We should welcome those changes. On energy, the British Government and the Scottish Executive have made it clear that we do not accept the provisions in the draft constitution that was put together by the European convention. However, those provisions have not been represented truly. I am in close contact with the energy industry in Scotland and with the UK Government to ensure that the Executive gives them every support in getting the provisions changed.


Prison Escort Services

To ask the First Minister what penalties will be paid by Reliance Secure Task Management Ltd in respect of any breach of its contract to escort prisoners. (S2F-807)

The contract provides for penalties for failure to meet agreed performance standards. The Scottish Prison Service will calculate penalties on a monthly basis following the investigation of all alleged incidents.

Nicola Sturgeon:

Does the First Minister accept that, whatever additional penalties Reliance might have to pay in relation to the delays and general incompetence that it has been responsible for during the past two weeks, the public want and have a right to know the specific price that the company will pay for allowing a convicted murderer to saunter out of a courtroom and disappear into thin air? Will he tell the Parliament today the value of the fine that Reliance will have to pay for letting James McCormick go? If he will not do so, will he outline what possible reason there can be for keeping such information under wraps?

The First Minister:

The Minister for Justice made it clear yesterday that, subject to important provisions in relation to public safety and some provisions that are inevitable in relation to commercial confidentiality, we will publish the contract. We will also publish performance information that will not only allow the Parliament to criticise, rightly, the way in which the contract has been implemented in the past three weeks, but ensure that we can guarantee that performance is improving and monitor that against the contract. That information will be agreed between the Scottish Prison Service and Reliance during the coming weeks. It will be published and it will give the Government and the Parliament an indication of whether performance is improving before we get to the stage of extending Reliance's responsibilities elsewhere in Scotland.

Miss Annabel Goldie (West of Scotland) (Con):

It is common knowledge that the negotiation and placing of the contract were accompanied by ministerial detachment. In so far as the Minister for Justice has alluded to the contract, she has sought to hide behind issues of commercial and operational sensitivity. I listened to the First Minister's response, but does he accept that, if public confidence is to be restored not just in our justice system but in the political process in Scotland, ministerial disclosure to the Parliament of how the penalty provisions of the contract operate is critical? Does he accept that it is not enough for the contract to be published and that it is essential that we have manifest ministerial acceptance of responsibility and appropriate and regular statements in the chamber about how the penalty provisions are applied?

The First Minister:

I do not think that Annabel Goldie can say that responsibility has been shirked in any way. The first thing that happened when the Parliament returned to a full plenary meeting yesterday was that the Minister for Justice gave a parliamentary statement accepting her responsibility for sorting out the situation. During the past three weeks, the minister has been pursuing not just the Scottish Prison Service, the Scottish Court Service and the police service, but Reliance, to ensure that this debacle is sorted out. That is exactly the right thing for her to do and that is why she is in her position. She is the kind of person who takes such tough decisions and is prepared to knock heads together to ensure that the service works in the interests of victims and witnesses. She is not the kind of person who sits on the Tory or nationalist benches, shirks reform and is not prepared to put victims and witnesses first in the system.

Margaret Smith (Edinburgh West) (LD):

No doubt the contract includes details of vetting and licensing. Guards who escort prisoners in England and Wales face the tough licensing and vetting procedures of the Security Industry Authority, which was set up under legislation that was passed in 2001. The Executive has stated its intention to extend that protection to Scotland. Will the First Minister confirm whether the Executive is still seeking a legislative slot at Westminster to do just that?

The First Minister:

That is one of the issues that the Minister for Justice dealt with yesterday. She said quite clearly—I hope that everyone in the chamber heard her comment and I hope that some members of the media heard it, too, because unfortunately the position has been misrepresented to the public—that the people who work for Reliance in the service have been subject to additional security checks under the supervision of the Scottish Prison Service, which makes sure that those checks are in place. That is a reassurance for members of the public. Although Reliance has been unable to operate the contract successfully during the past three weeks, the individuals who are involved have had the appropriate checks, which have been applied under the supervision of the Scottish Prison Service. That is part of the agreement. We wanted to make sure that those who are involved in the service are able, properly trained and—

My apologies, Presiding Officer, I started waffling there. I will drop it at that.


Seals

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Executive's position is in respect of whether a cull in seal numbers is necessary. (S2F-825)

Our independent scientific advice suggests that a general seal cull is not an appropriate or effective way in which to protect fisheries. We therefore have no plans to authorise a seal cull in Scottish waters.

Mike Pringle:

Many people throughout Scotland are concerned about an unnecessary cull of seals. Will the First Minister confirm that, before any change is made to current policy, the Executive will undertake a rigorous scientific analysis of the situation and consider the potential damage to Scotland's image abroad and the knock-on impact on tourism and other related businesses?

The First Minister:

I can confirm that we would consider the suggestion only if it was backed up by a considerable amount of reliable scientific evidence that such a cull was necessary and appropriate. No evidence would justify such a change at the moment, which is why we have no plans for a seal cull in Scotland.

Mr Alasdair Morrison (Western Isles) (Lab):

Does the First Minister agree that culls such as the Government-sponsored ones of hedgehogs, mink and deer have a role in nature conservation? Does he also agree that we must be vigilant about what is happening in the waters around our islands by constantly assessing the impact that fishermen and seals have on the viability of all fisheries?

The First Minister:

Of course it is appropriate for us to monitor those situations, but our position on the seal cull is quite clear. We are also aware that, apart from the fishing industry and the fishing communities, the greatest impact on fish stocks comes from other species in that habitat, which have a much more considerable effect on fish stocks than seals do. Part of the monitoring of fish stocks must include an analysis of why fish stocks in Scottish waters might be declining.