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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 21 Sep 2006

Meeting date: Thursday, September 21, 2006


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-2438)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to Scotland.

On Monday this week, the Deputy First Minister said categorically:

"we do not need new nuclear power stations in Scotland."

Does the First Minister agree?

The First Minister:

First, and as I have said before, we will not agree to or even consider any new nuclear power stations in Scotland until the issue of nuclear waste is properly resolved. That is a very important issue indeed. Secondly, there are currently no applications for new nuclear power stations in Scotland, so the question does not arise.

I suspect that we have the capacity in Scotland to meet our energy needs through a massive increase in the use of renewable sources. I was delighted in the summer when the United Kingdom energy review agreed that as a priority, not only for Scotland but for the whole of the UK, and agreed to support us in that endeavour. At the same time, and as I have said in the chamber before, given the importance of energy supply for domestic households and businesses in Scotland, it would be silly of us at this stage to rule out any option forever.

Nicola Sturgeon:

So the First Minister remains firmly perched on that fence. I remind him that the final recommendations on nuclear waste management were published by the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management two months ago. Last year, the First Minister said:

"the handling of nuclear waste will be resolved when we see the recommendation … from the Committee on Radioactive Waste Management." [Official Report, 12 May 2005; c 16826.]

Now that he has seen the recommendations and has had two months to read them, what possible reason can there be for him not to give a very clear view on new nuclear power stations, especially since the Deputy First Minister has had absolutely no difficulty in doing so? Will the First Minister, for once in his life, give a straight answer to a straight question? Does he think that there should be new nuclear power stations in Scotland—yes or no?

The First Minister:

I have said it before and I will say it again—consistency is a virtue that the Scottish National Party could learn—that I do not suspect that new nuclear power stations will be required in Scotland. However, I am not prepared to rule that out forever, because we do not know the balance that will be achieved through the investment that we are making in renewables and other sources; we also do not know the impact of international events on the energy that is sourced from elsewhere in the world for Scotland and the rest of the UK. It is utterly irresponsible of the SNP to regard Scotland as an isolated place that is in no way connected to events elsewhere in the world.

I am pleased that Nicola Sturgeon wishes to ensure that, at all times, she is off the fence on these issues. I will ask her a straight question. If the outcome of the deliberations on the CORWM report is to secure a solution for the long-term disposal of nuclear waste, and if that solution is to place the nuclear waste of the whole of the United Kingdom, including the nuclear waste from Scotland, in a location in the north-west of England, would we go and ask for it back under her plans for an independent Scotland?

Nicola Sturgeon:

I do not even understand the question, let alone know what the answer is. The SNP is clear that, because there is no solution to nuclear waste, we think that there should be no nuclear power stations. That is pretty clear. I do not know why the First Minister cannot understand it.

If the First Minister is not swayed by the views of his Deputy First Minister, let us try the views of his Minister for Environment and Rural Development—after all, he is the responsible minister in this area—who said on Sunday:

"We can meet our energy needs without nuclear power."

Given that the Deputy First Minister and the Minister for Environment and Rural Development can give a clear view, is it not about time that instead of havering and waffling the First Minister actually came clean and told the people of Scotland exactly what is his position on new nuclear power stations?

The First Minister:

Ms Sturgeon should practise what she preaches. Let us get a clear answer to a clear question. The reality is that even if there are no new nuclear power stations in Scotland and the SNP manages to close those that currently exist, there is and will be nuclear waste in Scotland and in the UK. If that nuclear waste is disposed of in the north-west of England, would Ms Sturgeon's plans for an independent Scotland mean that the waste produced here in Scotland would have to be returned to Scotland—yes or no?

Nicola Sturgeon:

No. Of course they would not mean that. That is absolutely ridiculous. I am saying that if one does not have a solution to nuclear waste, it is totally irresponsible to suggest that we create even more nuclear waste. That is the question that the First Minister cannot answer. Is it not the case that what we have here is the First Minister yet again sitting on the fence, scared to jump one way or the other? On the one hand, he has Labour back benchers who agree with me that nuclear is not the way forward, but, on the other hand, he has Tony Blair and Gordon Brown pushing nuclear at every single opportunity. Instead of having the courage to say what his view is, the First Minister cowers in the corner as usual, saying nothing at all. Is it not about time that we in Scotland had a leader with the courage to lead?

The First Minister:

I am interested in Ms Sturgeon's answer. Somehow along the way either the nuclear waste is going to evaporate and disappear, which I think most of us know is never going to be the case, or the new independent Scotland's neighbours in England are going to agree voluntarily to keep all our nuclear waste forever, so none of Scotland's waste will be disposed of in Scotland. Ms Sturgeon has to answer the questions about the number 1 policy of the SNP. We know what the SNP stands for: it stands for independence. In an independent Scotland, we would need to dispose of our own nuclear waste. If Ms Sturgeon wants the policy of this country to be "Let's have it back", she should be honest about that.


Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister and what issues they will discuss. (S2F-2439)

I expect to meet the Prime Minister next week in Manchester. I have no idea what we might discuss, but I am sure that our discussions will, as ever, be friendly and fruitful.

Miss Goldie:

The First Minister will be aware of the Health Committee's report on free personal care, which was debated in the Parliament yesterday. The committee highlighted major problems and reaffirmed the sad fact that the majority of councils in Scotland still operate waiting lists for free personal care. He promised the Parliament in June that he would sort that out. He referred to "clear procedures". What are they and what has happened?

The First Minister:

As I outlined at the time, the initial stage of those clear procedures is for ministers to meet the authorities that require scrutiny and in which action is required. That happened in the case that was highlighted at the time, which I think was Argyll and Bute Council. Discussions are continuing with that authority about the action that it has to take to ensure that it delivers the policy as outlined and meets the absolute rights and requirements of the elderly people who live in that area. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cases.

Miss Goldie:

This is September, and vulnerable older people are stuck on waiting lists for care that they have been promised. They do not give a fig about petty squabbles between the Executive and councils—what matters is what is happening on the ground and, unfortunately, there are fundamental problems with delivering the policy. Does the First Minister accept that if the policy is to be fully delivered, more money will have to be made available? Does he agree that caring for those frail people would be a better use of resources than bailing out Scottish Enterprise or trying to relocate quangos and agencies around the country at enormous expense?

The First Minister:

I hope that people who live in Tiree, Dundee, Inverness, Ayrshire, Aberdeen, Fife, Benbecula and other parts of Scotland who have benefited from the relocation of jobs will hear loud and clear that Annabel Goldie's rebranded Conservative party does not believe in the relocation of such jobs from Scotland's cities.

I want to be absolutely clear—as Lewis Macdonald was in the chamber yesterday—that the demands of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities and the financial requirements that were outlined in the independent study of the costs of free personal care have been met in full by the Executive in its budget packages. Therefore, the issue that Annabel Goldie has raised does not arise. The councils have the money that they requested, all of which should be spent on free personal care, and they should be delivering that care to the old people in their areas who require it and have the right to it.

Miss Goldie:

Old people in those areas would far prefer to have that care delivered than a relocation of agencies and quangos because the debacle has continued for too long and is absolutely unacceptable. The irony is that what is happening is avoidable.

Is the First Minister aware of table 8.03 in the Executive's draft budget document, a copy of which I have with me? The table highlights the fact that £76 million is lying unallocated in the Health Department's budget for the current year—it is sitting unused in the Executive's coffers. Will he make a commitment to use at least some of that resource to implement free personal care? The money is there—will he use it?

The First Minister:

I do not have that table in front of me, but what Annabel Goldie has said sounds like complete rubbish. The Conservatives spend most of the year criticising us for overspending in the health budget and for spending too much money on the health service in Scotland. We are trying to recover from the many years of underinvestment in the health service under the Conservatives. Our investment continues and is one reason why waiting times in the health service are lower than they have ever been. It is also why we can afford to fund free personal care, which was, of course, not available under the Conservatives.

There is one question from a back bencher this week.

Mr Charlie Gordon (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab):

Further to yesterday's successful drugs raid in my constituency as part of the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency's operation folklore, what is the Scottish Executive doing to assist the police to ensure that communities are protected from the misery that is created by organised crime?

The First Minister:

We are expanding the remit of the Scottish Drug Enforcement Agency in order to develop a wider serious crime agency, which will have the best facilities and equipment and more officers. It will also have the co-operation of officers in Scotland's police forces, the number of whom is currently higher than the record levels that existed in 2003, at the start of this parliamentary session—the number throughout Scotland has now topped 16,000. Those additional police officers will continue their work with the national agency to make such arrests.

Furthermore, by penalising those who make a profit from drugs and serious crime and reinvesting those penalties back into the communities that are affected, not only will we have a further deterrent to crimes being committed by the big criminals in the drugs and serious crime world in Scotland but we will show communities that we are determined to help them to recover from the impact of the activities of those individuals in the past.


Competitive Advantage

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Executive intends to give Scottish business a competitive advantage. (S2F-2443)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

From the platform of the success and stability of our United Kingdom economy, we in Scotland will build long-term competitive advantage by improving the supply side of the Scottish economy and investing in skills and transport infrastructure through boosting capital budgets for further and higher education by 300 per cent and revenue budgets by 23 per cent; cutting business rates; attracting fresh talent; creating dozens of new international air routes; building new and better roads; buying new trains; and building new railways, including a visionary new rail route between our capital city and its airport.

Alasdair Morgan:

Given the fiasco over the Executive's plans to help firms that are investing in research and development by cutting business rates, does the First Minister not wish that the Parliament had the full financial powers of a normal parliament, like those of so many of our small, successful neighbours? Does he not wish that he was able to produce policies that would work to give our businesses a competitive advantage?

The First Minister:

I said last year that we would consider carefully how we could use the rates system to assist R and D-intensive companies that could benefit from further assistance. We continue to look at that issue. In addition, the figures that were published this week show not only that research and development in Scottish companies is at a far higher level than it used to be because of our investments and the entrepreneurial culture that is developing in Scotland, but that it is now at a higher level than in any other part of the United Kingdom. That is something of which we should be proud, instead of moaning about it as the SNP did again this week.

To help Scottish businesses, we need decent transport links. Mr Morgan says that he wants Scotland to have the things that a normal country might have. I will read out a list of some of the countries that have a link between their capital city and its airport: Brussels, in Belgium; Copenhagen, in Denmark; Stockholm, in Sweden; Oslo, in Norway; Athens, in Greece; Madrid, in Spain; Vienna, in Austria; Zurich, in Switzerland; Rome, in Italy; and Bucharest, in Romania. Dublin, in Ireland—which the SNP likes to quote as an example—is not on that list yet. Dublin does not have such a link, but it is going to get one. The Government in Ireland has plans to give Dublin a link and it is being supported by the parties in Ireland.

The SNP's announcement today that it is against the Edinburgh airport rail link is one of the most disgraceful not just anti-Edinburgh but anti-business statements that the SNP has ever made. I want Scotland to have the facilities of a normal country—the railways of a normal country—and we are going to deliver them even if the SNP votes against them.

Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):

Does the First Minister accept that it does nothing for the credibility of the Executive to announce with great fanfare a policy such as the cut in business rates for companies that invest in R and D without first checking whether that policy could be implemented? Can he tell us who is to blame for that incompetence? Is it the civil servants or the ministers?

The First Minister:

We said last September that we would consider carefully the implementation of such a scheme, and we continue to do that. It is important that we are able to help R and D-intensive companies, and it is because we have made that a priority that we have seen such a dramatic increase in the research and development that is being carried out by Scottish companies. Scotland and Scottish companies are now leading the way for the rest of the United Kingdom, which is good news for Scotland. I am afraid that, whatever rebranding we get from the Tories, their same old policies would not have delivered that.


Youth Crime

To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Executive is doing to tackle youth crime. (S2F-2450)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Over the past three years, youth justice has been transformed in Scotland. We have increased investment in youth justice from £3.5 million in 2000-01 to £63 million this year. The number of offences that are being committed by persistent young offenders has dropped in the past two years. Scotland's secure estate for vulnerable and troubled young people will increase to 125 places by 2007. We have given local agencies the powers to take strong and effective action to reduce antisocial behaviour, including the introduction of antisocial behaviour orders for under-16s, parenting orders and electronic tagging. We are providing support for localised action and initiatives to divert young people away from crime by investing in education, sports and other initiatives. We have a very good record so far, but our work is far from over and there will be more.

Paul Martin:

Does the First Minister, like me, welcome the progress of a dispersal order in the Dennistoun area of my constituency? Does he recognise that, despite an unprecedented level of legal remedies and funding being available to police and local authorities, they continue to produce what I refer to as the unacceptable database of excuses as to why they are not able to deliver legal remedies? Will he name and shame those police forces and local authorities and consider imposing financial penalties on them if they are unwilling to use the available funding?

The First Minister:

Paul Martin's point is legitimate in certain cases. I stress that the powers that the Parliament has passed provide local authorities and police forces across Scotland with powerful new tools to tackle antisocial behaviour locally. They should be using them—and, in many cases, should be using them more.

However, having criticised Strathclyde police and local authorities in the Strathclyde area in the past, I must congratulate them on introducing the first dispersal order in the north side of Glasgow. I hope that a second order will be introduced either in Paul Martin's constituency or elsewhere in the near future and that this marks the start of the wider use of those powers in the Strathclyde area. Local people expect those powers to be used—indeed, they demand it—and when the agencies deliver, those people will benefit.

Jeremy Purvis (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD):

Does the First Minister welcome the figures that were published in the summer that show that the number of young people sentenced in Scotland for crimes and offences has fallen by a third over the past 10 years? However, does he also recognise that the majority of victims of youth crime are young people themselves? What support will the Executive give young victims of crime to ensure that, first of all, the entire generation is not stigmatised and, secondly, we do not let down young people who are victims of offences?

The First Minister:

I could not agree more. Our investment in facilities, educational opportunities and other initiatives for young people is designed partly to divert those who might get involved in youth crime from that very course and partly to provide incentives and opportunities for the vast majority of young people who are not involved in youth crime and antisocial behaviour. I meet such young people from across Scotland almost every day, and they deserve our encouragement and support.

I am happy to look into the specific support that is available for young victims and will ensure that Mr Purvis receives a detailed reply on the matter. However, I must point out that one of the main incentives for tackling antisocial behaviour and youth crime is to protect young people across Scotland who are so bullied and abused by a minority that they are terrified to go out at night or to enjoy the facilities in their communities. Certain parties in this chamber have constantly refused to take that seriously. However, we in the parties in the Government and Executive are proud to say that we take it seriously.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

Is the First Minister aware of correspondence dated 30 June 2006 between Scottish Children's Reporter Administration principal reporter Margaret Cox and Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland spokeswoman Assistant Chief Constable Maureen Brown in which Ms Cox states:

"Earlier this year, SCRA sought a funding increase of approximately £20M over 3 years to enable the Reporter service to cope with the anticipated increases in referrals. … However the Scottish Executive has taken the view that limited resources available have to be directed to referral reduction"?

Does that not represent a fundamental shift in ethos and policy that places at risk children who would otherwise have been picked up by the children's hearings system? Does that not run contrary to the advice of experts in the field who have repeatedly said that early intervention is the key to reducing the number of referrals and that, by trying to get the statistics right, the Executive is not getting it right for every child?

The First Minister:

Christine Grahame should read the letter—and, in particular, the passage that she has just quoted—a little bit more carefully. The whole purpose of early intervention and investment in education and youth opportunities in Scotland is to reduce the number of referrals to the youth justice system, which is the substance of the passage on which she has based her criticisms.

It is right that we direct the majority of our investment not only into education and other opportunities for young people but into measures to tackle the causes of youth crime and antisocial behaviour and, indeed, into family support. After all, in many cases, the responsibility lies not with society or the individual young person but with the young person's parents or those who look after them.

At the same time, we must properly fund the children's hearings system. We know that, if it had money to give, the SNP would give a great deal to anyone who asked for it. However, that is not the role of Government. It needs to decide priorities, and we have decided that one priority is to increase in real terms the budget for the children's hearings system. We have done that consistently, and will do so again.


Football Banning Orders

To ask the First Minister how the new football banning orders will improve crowd behaviour at the forthcoming old firm game. (S2F-2448)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

Football banning orders will have a positive impact on Scottish football as a whole. Abusive behaviour can lead to individuals being banned from matches and from places where fans gather in Scotland, the rest of the United Kingdom and internationally for up to 10 years. I have no doubt that banning orders will act as a deterrent against violent and abusive behaviour.

Donald Gorrie:

That is encouraging. Will the First Minister say whether the Executive, the police or the prosecuting authorities could take further action to help the management of the clubs, who are making genuine efforts to deal with the small minority of fans who cause trouble, but have particular difficulty in enforcing better behaviour at away matches?

The First Minister:

The member makes a valid point. We have learned—in particular from our action on tackling drug dealers in Scotland, which Charlie Gordon mentioned—that close co-operation among prosecutors, police forces and other agencies involved in Scotland can reap real dividends in ensuring not only that people are identified but that they are quickly tracked through the system, which deters people from reoffending. That will be as important in the context of our football grounds as it is elsewhere.

In relation to sectarianism and violent and abusive behaviour more generally among football fans, the media and sometimes politicians and others tend to focus attention on the big stadia, the big games and the big crowds. However, as Donald Gorrie says, in many cases the behaviour of away supporters—particularly the supporters of some of the bigger teams—at some of the smaller grounds in Scotland is particularly disturbing. Therefore, co-operation with police forces outwith a club's area will be essential. The Minister for Justice will continue to discuss those matters with the Association of Chief Police Officers in Scotland.


Genetically Modified Rice

To ask the First Minister what action is being taken in relation to the sale of GM-contaminated rice in Scotland. (S2F-2453)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

The United States authorities informed the Food Standards Agency on 21 August about the possible contamination of US long-grain rice with GM material. The Food Standards Agency has made clear to food retailers and food manufacturers that retailers are responsible for ensuring that the food they sell does not contain unauthorised GM material and has commissioned a survey to ensure that batches of affected rice are not entering the food chain.

The European Commission took action on 24 August to prevent the placing on the market of long-grain rice from the US unless it is accompanied by an analytical report that certifies that the lot is free of unauthorised GM rice. The European Food Safety Authority published an assessment on 15 September, which concluded that there was no "imminent safety concern".

Mr Ruskell:

That is interesting, but contaminated rice is still reaching supermarket shelves in Scotland. When the FSA called for the dye Sudan 1 to be withdrawn, it gave as its reason the fact that the dye is "illegal in foods". The unauthorised GM rice is also illegal in foods under European Union law. Is the First Minister aware that the law is being broken in Scotland? To paraphrase Mr Fraser, is that the fault of civil servants or of ministers?

There might be the odd civil servant or minister working in the supermarket at weekends, but I have my doubts.

There will be next year. [Laughter.]

The First Minister:

I appreciate that comment.

I want to make a serious point about members who make accusations in the chamber about the law being broken. If members have evidence that the law is being broken, they should give it to the police and the police should take action. That is the normal way to behave in society and I hope that members of the Green party and other parties who think that the law is being broken will deliver their evidence to the appropriate authorities. I am certain that in those circumstances action will be taken.

Rob Gibson (Highlands and Islands) (SNP):

Does the First Minister agree with the EU Commissioner for Health and Consumer Protection that illegal GM rice should not appear in our supermarkets under any circumstances? If so, as the Food Standards Agency has refused to give instructions, will the First Minister intervene to protect Scottish consumers from that rice, which is on our shelves?

The First Minister:

I just said what the Food Standards Agency has done. It has made it clear to retailers and food manufacturers that food retailers are responsible for ensuring that the food that they sell does not contain unauthorised GM material. It is vital that they do that. Government ministers cannot go around taking things off supermarket shelves.

If there is evidence that retailers are not carrying out the absolute requirement on them to ensure that food on the shelves is not unauthorised, that should be given to the appropriate authorities and action should be taken against the retailers. The Food Standards Agency has made it very clear that it is the responsibility of the retailers to make sure that the food on their shelves is authorised.

As we started late, I will allow one last question.

Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):

I believe that validated testing of imported US rice that might be contaminated has not showed any positive results. However, I note that the European Commission has urged member states to intensify testing of products in the market as soon as possible. Is there scope for Scottish laboratories to be given some of that work?

That might well be a possibility, but I am not certain. However, if it is possible for Scottish laboratories to be commissioned to do additional work as a result of actions taken throughout the European Union, we would welcome that.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—