Veterans
Before we come to the debate on veterans, I want to say that I am deeply disappointed that a major policy announcement that was to be made as part of the debate found its way into the media before being announced to Parliament. That is particularly unfortunate, because party business managers have worked closely together to ensure that Parliament can come together on the wider issue of veterans.
As the Government sought the Parliament’s consent to have a debate on veterans, it is not unreasonable to expect that any announcements that relate to that debate be made first in the chamber. Ultimately, the Government remains responsible for management of information concerning announcements that fall to be made in Parliament. My expectation is that the Government will reflect on how this particular announcement has been handled, and that it will take steps to ensure that such a situation does not recur.
We now move to the debate on motion S4M-08747, in the name of Keith Brown, on veterans.
14:19
Presiding Officer, I note your comments about the release of information. We tried hard to ensure that it did not happen, but it has happened. As you have suggested, we will reflect on how we can avoid its happening in the future. Once the information had appeared in the public sphere, I sent out a briefing note to Opposition members to ensure that they were aware of as much of the information as possible. Nevertheless, I regret the release of the information.
As Scotland prepares to remember those who made the ultimate sacrifice during the great war, we should pause also to remember those who returned from that war injured and, in many cases, broken in other ways. They believed that they would return home to a land fit for heroes. Instead they came back, by and large, to poor housing, the prospect of unemployment and very little in the way of welfare support. Ours is a different society, and although we always strive to do more, those who leave the armed forces today have access to a wide range of support and services. In one vital respect, however, it can be argued that that earlier generation had one factor in their favour: the many people from this country who served in that conflict had a common experience and its horrors were shared on a much larger scale than is the case for those who serve today and return to join civic society.
Experience of active service is shared by far fewer people today, which reflects our success in avoiding wars on the scale of those that we had in the early part of the previous century. That also provides a strong reason why we must continue to provide particular support to veterans, many of whom have experienced conflict of one sort or another and have served with honour and pride, and have given up many of the individual freedoms that we take for granted. Not just for that reason, but for others, too, we owe them a debt of gratitude. By and large, our veterans are innovative, hard-working, entrepreneurial and civic-minded people, and they generally play a full part in making Scotland successful.
Veterans Scotland estimates that there are about 400,000 veterans in Scotland, which is almost 8 per cent of the population, and about 2,000 service leavers return to civilian life annually. Many make the transition relatively seamlessly, but a small number face particular difficulties and require our support. In some cases, we must ensure that they get special treatment in recognition of the special circumstances that they have had to endure, and I make no apology for taking that action.
In 2012, the excellent armed services advice project—ASAP—reported that although veterans often have similar support needs to the wider population, the experience of serving can also result in multiple and complex needs. Those needs can relate to welfare, access to benefits, getting back into employment, health issues or financial and debt issues, and their causes can often be traced back to the veteran’s initial transition to civilian life. The ASAP report notes that in spite of the support and advice that is available, too many veterans in Scotland slip through the net. Some continue for many years after leaving to experience problems resulting from that unsuccessful transition. That is why it is so important that we get it right at the point of transition, but it is clear that the current transition process is failing some of our veterans. That is particularly the case for early service leavers, who are not eligible for the full Ministry of Defence resettlement package, which is offered to veterans who have more than four years’ service.
In my previous role, I served in an education capacity; I remember the issues and discussions that we had then about the transition from primary school to secondary school. I am not saying that that transition is completely analogous to the transition that people make from military life to civilian life, but a fairly substantial change takes place and some of the issues are similar. It is really important that we get the transition right. Early service leavers account for half of all those who make the transition to civilian life in any given year, and some find themselves ill equipped to cope. The transition mapping study that was produced by the Forces in Mind Trust last August projected that the cost of poor transition across the United Kingdom would rise to £122 million in 2013.
Much of the responsibility for meeting the needs of service leavers in Scotland falls to the Scottish Government and to devolved public services. It is a responsibility that we take seriously, and we are committed to ensuring that they receive the full range of support. Had we the full range of powers, we would design an holistic framework of support running seamlessly from enlistment to transition.
However, transition is currently the responsibility of the UK Government. I saw how the process could be managed when I talked to people in Canada who are involved in the transition process. They, too, take a holistic approach to people serving and moving into civilian life. I have told many UK ministers over a number of years that, on the very day when somebody joins the services, we should start a plan for their return to employment and for their housing provision when they eventually leave the service.
I look forward to seeing the outcome of the UK Government’s veterans transition review, which we expect to report in February. I have made known to Lord Ashcroft my views on the failings of the current system of transition, and we have shared some suggestions for concrete improvements.
Working within our devolved powers, our priority remains the removal of any disadvantage that our veterans face in accessing public services in a way that suits their unique circumstances. Lord Ashcroft’s team said that the support that is provided in Scotland to services personnel who enter civilian life is a model to be recommended.
In September 2012, we published “Our Commitments: Scottish Government Support for the Armed Forces Community in Scotland”, which details the support that we provide to members of the armed forces and veterans. That support covers health, education, housing, justice and sport. The paper was widely welcomed by veterans organisations, as well as by the Ministry of Defence and the armed forces. They told us that it lays the foundations of an on-going productive relationship with them. It reaffirmed our clear and unequivocal message that the armed forces, their families and veterans remain at the centre of our policy thinking, as well as of our development and delivery of policies.
We have made considerable progress, which has been underpinned by significant funding commitments. We have committed more than £3.5 million to projects across Scotland that provide housing and support services for veterans and disabled ex-service personnel. We have implemented the recommendations of both Murrison reports by providing £2 million for a new national state-of-the-art prosthetics service, and more than £1.2 million of funding per year for specialist mental health services. We have also improved access to national health service services, which has included provision of access to priority treatment through new general practitioner forms, the roll-out of community health index numbers to serving personnel, and provision of a veterans’ health zone on the www.nhsinform.co.uk website.
Those successes have been made possible through working with our strategic partners, the NHS, local authorities and wider public bodies. I pay particular tribute to the ex-services sector: Veterans Scotland and others play a vital role as champions and advocates, as disseminators of good practice and in representing the interests of veterans across Scotland. That is why in November I announced that the Scottish Government would provide Veterans Scotland with capacity-building funding of £220,000 over the next two financial years. Along with a significant increase to the Scottish veterans fund, that is further evidence of our whole-hearted support for those who have served.
However, we must seek to do more and, in particular, to help veterans who slip through the net. I believe that the time is right for us to step up our commitment and to shape a response that addresses the distinct needs of veterans, and which supports public services to meet expectations for them.
Having reflected on the models that I have seen in Canada and elsewhere, I am pleased to announce the creation of a new commissioner dedicated to veterans. The Scottish veterans commissioner will have a broad remit, which will involve taking an overview of support services across Scotland. Through thematic inquiries, the commissioner will identify the need for, and will help to drive, changes that will enable those services to support veterans better.
We must ask why some veterans are still struggling to access the help that they deserve, where the gaps are and what more we can do to meet our obligations to those who have served. As I have said, we must ensure that at the first point at which a veteran tries to access public services—whether it is the council, the Government or the health service—they get the right response at the right time, because if they do not, many will not come back to seek that support, as we have found in the past.
Working with partners, the commissioner will bring renewed focus and momentum to our ambition to develop leading-edge support for veterans across our devolved responsibilities. The commissioner’s recommendations will help to build leadership and direction on veterans policy in partnership—crucially, that will be done with the strong ex-services sector. The unique role of veterans organisations in Scotland will be pivotal, and the expertise and evidence of the Royal British Legion Scotland, Poppyscotland and others will be drawn on to capture the experience of veterans. The veteran’s perspective will be fundamental to the work of the commissioner and will inform investigations and recommendations for improvement.
However, the commissioner will not be a complaints arbitration service; we will ensure that the commissioner’s remit does not duplicate the functions of the Scottish Public Services Ombudsman and others. We will take the time to listen to and take on board the views of key partners—especially Veterans Scotland—in order to help to shape the commissioner’s remit and work programme before the post is advertised.
I have set out what we have done to support our veterans to date and how we now propose to do more, through the development of a Scottish veterans commissioner. We will continue to work with veterans charities and public sector providers to ensure that we meet the aspirations and expectations of Scotland’s veterans.
I move,
That the Parliament acknowledges the debt of gratitude that Scotland owes to those who have served in defence of freedom; notes that, since the publication of Our Commitments: Scottish Government Support for the Armed Forces Community in Scotland in September 2012, the Scottish Government has continued to provide support to the armed forces and veterans’ communities in Scotland that has been widely welcomed by the military and the ex-service community; commends the partnership working with stakeholders, which has led to improved support, including capacity-building funding for Veterans Scotland, and further notes the Scottish Government’s intention to ensure that the response to the UK Government’s Veterans’ Transition Review addresses the distinct needs of Scottish veterans and supports public services to meet their expectations; recognises the excellent work of veterans’ organisations in supporting veterans; welcomes the number of Veterans’ Champions across Scotland, and endorses the aim of ensuring that local services are better integrated to support Scotland’s veterans.
14:29
I very much welcome the opportunity to speak about armed forces veterans and the vital support services and charities that operate in Scotland and throughout the UK.
From the outset I acknowledge, as the Government’s motion does, the debt of gratitude that Scotland owes to those who have served in defence of freedom and I put on the record that we on this side of the chamber continue to support our armed forces personnel and veterans. We will therefore support the Government’s motion at decision time and we welcome the announcement of a veterans’ commissioner. I note the minister’s comments on the early release of that announcement, but if it had been included in the motion that all parties agree on, we would all have been able to support the announcement not just on the record through the Official Report but at decision time tonight. I note, too, the Presiding Officer’s comments on the announcement.
Being a member of the armed forces, particularly during times of conflict, is immensely stressful and beyond anything that we can imagine. However, such stressful situations create a level of commitment and an intense bond among service personnel that is unique to our armed forces in this country. I could only listen and try to work it out in my head when I heard from a soldier who had served in Afghanistan what it was like to come under fire and about that pressure and losing a fellow soldier who was as close to him as a member of his own family.
I can only imagine how isolated someone must feel when they are discharged from the armed forces alone into society, perhaps with no family, after having such a close bond with the comrades with whom they fought. They return to the UK and perhaps live at much larger distances from one another. They go from living in close quarters with people whom they considered to be family—eating, sleeping, working and socialising with the same close group—to being discharged into a community of strangers who tend not to understand military life and the bond that it creates between people. That is particularly the case because, as the minister pointed out, the number of people experiencing military life has fallen from that in the early part of the previous century.
The majority of servicemen and women make a successful transition to civilian life, but it really is not hard to imagine why some of our veterans struggle to adapt. It can put a massive strain on family life, and for those without family civilian life must feel like the loneliest place in the world. For those reasons, it is vital that advice and support services be put in place for former service personnel to help them to adjust to living in mainstream society, and that we support plans to co-ordinate and deliver support and advice services from the private, public and voluntary sectors for ex-service personnel and their families.
There are too many fantastic organisations providing support and advice to ex-service personnel and their families to mention, or for me to do justice to all the work that they do in a speech in Parliament today, but I want to mention some, the first of which could give us experience of what being an armed forces reservist involves. I have mentioned previously the organisation called SaBRE—supporting Britain’s reservists and employers—which has area committees up and down Scotland. That organisation gives advice and information on the extra skills that a reservist can bring to an organisation and it encourages employers to look more favourably on employing reservists. The organisation can give employers first-hand experience of the sort of training that a reservist will get and it regularly holds employer weekends that members here could go to to experience the sort of training that our reservists get. I would be happy to give local contact details for area committees to anyone who is interested.
We have to continue to support the organisations that do tremendous work for former service personnel across Scotland, including the Royal British Legion, which I visit regularly. The legion provides practical care, advice and support to armed forces personnel, ex-servicemen and women of all ages, and their families. It also runs the poppy appeal annually, and recent appeals have emphasised the increasing need to help the men and women who are serving today as well as ex-service people and their dependants. The legion also assists any serviceman or servicewoman to pursue his or her entitlement to a war disablement pension; every year up to 200 ex-service personnel in Scotland are represented at war pensions tribunals. We also have the Scottish Veterans Residences just across the road from the Parliament, which provides residential accommodation to over 300 ex-service personnel and their partners, and has helped tens of thousands of veterans throughout Scotland since it was established in 1911.
We have the Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Families Association, whose Lanark branch covers the Central Scotland region, which offers financial, practical and much-needed emotional support to current and previous members of the armed forces and their families through services such as forcesline, which is a telephone service that is entirely independent of the military chain of command, and which provides supportive listening and advice and a specialist “absent without leave” advice line. The association also runs a forces additional needs and disability support group and organises children’s holidays that are run by volunteers and which concentrate on offering children who have additional support needs experiences and activities to which they would not usually have access.
The last organisation that I will touch on is Erskine, which is the country’s leading provider of care for veterans. It provides a wide range of care, from respite and short breaks to residential and nursing care, dementia care, palliative care, physiotherapy, speech and language therapy and rehabilitation care, all of which are vital services for ex-servicemen and servicewomen and their families.
I hope that the newly announced veterans commissioner will build on the tremendous work that is already taking place in our veterans community and that it will support the many organisations that provide essential services for people to whom we owe such a large debt. I also hope that the commissioner will bring together the wide array of services that operate in pockets of communities and ensure that veterans across Scotland get access to those fantastic services.
14:36
I start by thanking the BBC for advance sight of the minister’s statement. Although I say that in a fairly light-hearted way, there is a serious issue here. However, we must not allow that to get in the way of the unanimity that exists in the chamber. It is with that in mind that I rise to support the minister’s motion.
As other members are, I am delighted to welcome the management team of Scottish Veterans Residences to Parliament today—they are in the public gallery. Scottish Veterans Residences is one of several veterans housing charities that operate in Scotland. It offers veterans a range of housing options and is currently driving forward an innovative and much-needed development in Glasgow.
As members may be aware, I have an army veteran in my office, so I have had no alternative but to keep a keen interest in veterans issues over a number of years now. In 2012, I was delighted to sponsor a reception on the issue, which the minister kindly attended along with many other MSPs.
For most service personnel, the move from military to civilian life is a smooth one, although many veterans have told me that it can be more of a culture shock than they envisaged. For some, however, their military service or even underlying health issues that were previously undetected will mean that they face greater challenges in adjusting to their situation. Although veterans housing charities often specialise in different needs, the fact that they operate under one umbrella and have a single application process demonstrates partnership working and a desire to deliver effective services to those who need them.
To secure a home is a fundamental need for anyone, but veterans often require more than that. It is estimated that more than 70,000 members of the British armed forces have served in Afghanistan since 2001 and more than 100,000 served in Iraq between 2003 and 2009, so I am sure that we all agree that specialist services for veterans will become increasingly important. Poppyscotland found that, compared with their English and Welsh counterparts, veterans who live in Scotland are 10 per cent more likely to become homeless, 8 per cent more likely to suffer from mental health problems, 5 per cent more likely to have financial problems, 5 per cent more likely to have a criminal record and 3 per cent more likely to suffer from alcohol problems.
One person in five in the Scottish population is a member of the veterans community through being an ex-services person or being the spouse or dependant of such a person. Research shows that some 350,000 members of the veterans community have potential welfare needs, and I feel that it is important to highlight that.
Yes, the support that is given to serving personnel who are making the transition from military to civilian life has improved considerably over the years, but too often a need for specialist support manifests itself only years after discharge. That is why I am glad to see the growing recognition that our veterans may need our help well beyond the initial phase of their civilian life.
The issues that have been raised in the debate are important and varied. However, the minister’s proposal for a veterans commissioner draws considerable interest and I wish to address it directly. In his opening remarks, the minister made it clear—I quite agree with the principle that he set out—that in the past many veterans believed that they were properly represented because there were so many veterans in our elected parliaments and other bodies. That is no longer the case.
However, my concern over the appointment of a commissioner—not my opposition, members will understand—is that we have been too quick to appoint commissioners in the past. We are in a particularly lucky position in having here in our Parliament a minister who has been appointed to represent veterans’ interests who is a man who has done considerable military service. The concept of a commissioner has worked many times for other purposes, but the cluttered environment of commissioners and ombudsmen has required thinning in recent years, so the appointment of another commissioner, if it is to be done, must be done with key objectives in mind.
There is already an extremely complex—some would say cluttered—landscape for veterans in Scotland. The ability to bring together specialist support is already achieved by that complex landscape of charities and veterans representatives, including veterans champions, across all our communities. For that reason, I am somewhat concerned about the appointment of a commissioner, and I am also concerned about how it may be funded. I would like the minister to explain the funding arrangements. If it is to be funded by the Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body, we must consider whether that money could be better spent on other priorities.
The Government has to justify its call for a commissioner to deal with veterans’ issues. The minister must explain to us exactly what a commissioner would achieve that is not being achieved by those who already work extremely hard in the sector, and exactly what we can expect to see over the longer term. If, as has been the case with some in the past, the appointment will gradually be subsumed into another responsibility and watered down, it may actually make things more complicated rather than more simple.
With my qualified support, I look forward to hearing more answers from the minister and to having in place a system that will deliver, whether we have a commissioner or not.
14:43
The armed forces class a veteran as anyone who has given one day of what is called reckonable service. That may be because once someone has made the decision to sign up and serve in the military, they have made a profound and lasting commitment that goes beyond days, months and years and is much like joining a new family.
The transition that a person undergoes when they leave that family for a future on civvy street can prove to be hard at times, as Mark Griffin and Alex Johnstone touched on in their contributions. Many former servicemen and servicewomen describe the difficulty of finding their place in society without the shared sense of purpose and close bonds of friendship that they previously relied on.
The transition can be more difficult for those who bear the physical or emotional scars of war—especially those who lose a limb and face a lifelong struggle towards rehabilitation. The military covenant recognises that society has a moral obligation to members of the armed forces for their service. By giving up their civil liberties and placing their lives in danger, our veterans make themselves worthy of the utmost respect and the highest possible standards of treatment and care.
That is why I am pleased to use the debate to draw attention to the efforts of the people who work to rehabilitate military amputees—in particular, the pioneering work of the southeast mobility and rehabilitation technology centre, which is based in the grounds of the Astley Ainslie hospital in my constituency. The SMART centre employs more than 70 professionals and is responsible for the on-going care, rehabilitation and support of a quarter of all of Scotland’s military amputees. Thanks to Scottish Government investment and the leadership that a dedicated veterans minister can provide, the facility will become the centrepiece of a new national approach to amputee care and will provide, which has never happened before, a fully comprehensive rehabilitation service. The centre will have the capacity to fit and repair the next generation of high-technology prosthetic limbs and will offer training and support to patients on how to live with their disabilities. The head of the service, Mr David Gow, has described that advance as a step change in the delivery of amputee care.
In April 2012, I lodged a motion in Parliament congratulating the Daily Record on its investigation that revealed that as many as one in 10 British Army soldiers is currently battling mental health issues. Many who have returned to civilian life have to cope with the impact of post-traumatic stress disorder. That is why I am pleased that military amputees at SMART will have access to extensive peer-based support with specialist psychological input from trained professionals. Work is now under way to establish that service; it is hoped that it will be fully up and running by April this year.
Presiding Officer, just as it is my honour to highlight the terrific work of such organisations, I also highlight the efforts of one particular veteran who continues to raise funds and awareness, and contributes to a number of worthwhile causes, including Edinburgh’s Royal hospital for sick children, for which he has raised more than £100,000, and for the Prestonfield and district neighbourhood workers project, which provides a range of day care services for older people in my constituency. At the age of 93, my constituent Tom Gilzean is a shining example. He can be seen with his trademark tartan trews on the High Street of our capital city, raising funds for those good causes. He is a shining example of the best virtues that any veteran could hope to display. A decorated war hero, his tireless commitment to charity and selfless dedication to helping others is an inspiration to us all, and is worthy of the highest recognition. In raising so much money for good causes, he has touched the lives of so many people. He is an example to us all and a credit to himself and the veterans community. A campaign is under way to have him awarded the freedom of the city of Edinburgh. I can think of no person more deserving of such an honour.
14:47
I thank the Government for today’s debate and for allowing Parliament to recognise the contribution that veterans have made and continue to make to our country. As the minister highlighted, the UK’s involvement in armed conflict remains a highly contentious issue but, by contrast, it is pleasing to note that public support for serving and former members of our armed forces seems, if anything, to be increasing.
As we move further away from the world wars that so shaped the history of the previous century, we have the opportunity to develop a new and hopefully healthier relationship with the military and with our military veterans. I want to highlight two points this afternoon: the need for us to encourage successive generations to remember the sacrifice made by so many in defence of our freedoms and our way of life; and the practical help and support that we can and should offer those who continue to serve.
In this anniversary year, when we look back at the momentous events which marked the outbreak of the first world war, it is easy to be swamped by the sheer scale of the devastation that was wrought and the millions of people who died in that conflict. However, it is sometimes the individual stories that can most make us stop to think.
That was certainly my reaction when I saw the work of the Mearns history group in my own constituency, which has recently undertaken a project to research the background of all those from the local area who died in the great war. For more than 10 years, on every second Sunday in November I have read the names on the memorial at Mearns Cross many times over and have wondered who those men were, what lives they led, and who they left behind. The local history group has done a wonderful job of finding out just a little of the story behind each name and the grief that their loss must have caused.
The names on the memorial include Andrew Hamilton, private, 1st garrison battalion of the Gordon Highlanders, who was a joiner who lived with his wife Elizabeth and their six children at 35 Main Street, Newton Mearns, and who died of nephritis in Rawalpindi aged 39. Corporal Robert Close of the 2nd battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers, son of Robert and Sarah Close, was killed on the Somme on 16 July 1916, aged 25. I want to thank all the volunteers in the local community who have taken the time to unearth these simple facts, which allow us, even now, to make the connection to our war dead.
However, it is not enough simply to remember the fallen; we should use this moment and this year’s commemorations in particular to help those who are still serving. I draw to the minister’s attention a worthwhile new initiative. Armed forces legal action, or AFLA, is a nationwide scheme to provide discounted legal services for current armed forces personnel and those who have recently left the armed forces. Lawyers up and down the country are being asked to offer a reduction of one third off their fees and to extend that support to wounded veterans and bereaved partners. To date, 117 law firms up and down the country have expressed an interest in registering for it.
The scheme, which was the brainchild of a Scottish serviceman, will be launched officially on armed forces day later this year. I am pleased to be hosting a reception on the scheme here in the Parliament to which all members will of course be invited. If the minister is interested in finding out more, I point him in the direction of the website of the Law Society of Scotland. I am sure that he will recognise the advantages of such a straightforward, practical and supportive scheme, and I would be delighted if he could offer it his or the Government’s endorsement.
I will end on a slightly lighter note. I took advantage of a previous debate to enlist the support of the minister’s colleague the Minister for External Affairs and International Development for a fair trade football match. The Scottish Parliament team is, once more, up against a team of Royal Air Force veterans in our annual fixture to mark armed forces day. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, the team might be veterans, but they are fit, skilful and, unsurprisingly, very well disciplined. I know that I can count on Labour’s shadow spokesperson, Mr Griffin, to shore up the back line. I also know from experience that the minister is a very useful player. We are counting on his support, so I hope that he can find a date in his diary for the match in June.
I support the Government motion.
Thank you, Mr Macintosh. Methinks we are going to miss John Park for the football.
14:52
We all know the quote:
“There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.”
In this case, it is for one’s nation, but do we really know the sacrifice that we ask of our armed service personnel when we ask them to pay the ultimate price for our freedom and democracy? Do we truly understand the impact on any human being who has witnessed the horror of war? Do we take account of the impact on the families left behind to face an uncertain future, either without their loved one or with the duty to look after a damaged or injured loved one?
Do we really understand that, for some, the battlefield becomes civvy street? Citizens Advice Scotland has published a report called “Civvy Street: The New Frontline”, which states:
“The recent wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have led to an increased focus on the support needs of veterans and those still serving. In turn, this has led to better advice and training for those leaving the Armed Forces and better support for those who experience problems after doing so.”
However, as the minister said, there remain some who slip through that net. Many veterans continue to experience real difficulty, especially in that transition period, and some experience it for decades. My involvement in the firm base forum in Lanarkshire has shown me clearly how problems can arise years later.
One of the things that I support is the armed services advice project, which was established in 2010 following a very successful pilot in my constituency of Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse. It provides advice and support for all members of the armed forces community, whether serving personnel, veterans or their families. ASAP is delivered by the Scottish citizens advice bureaux service—a highly trusted network with decades of experience of delivering free, independent, confidential and impartial advice and information to the general public.
In its first two years, ASAP was extremely successful. It assisted nearly 1,800 clients with over 6,000 issues, 84 per cent of whom were either veterans or their dependants. Some of them were still serving and needed support with the transition out of the forces, which they were finding very difficult. ASAP was able to deliver that support, too.
I was honoured to have a debate on the project a number of months ago. We saw from case studies that armed forces veterans have similar issues to everybody else but that things for them seem to be 10 times more difficult. If they have a mental health problem or an on-going injury—sometimes issues are not diagnosed until years later—they can find it extremely difficult to go and ask for help.
ASAP provides that help. It gives it on an informal basis and supports people in the measures that they want at the pace that they want. However, to truly accept the responsibility and duty of care that we have for our armed services personnel, we must ensure that they have the best of care and that when they come to the end of the service that they have given—irrespective of the reasons for going to war and whether we agree with them—they should get the highest standard of care.
That is why I welcome the minister’s announcement today. In my opinion, a commissioner can make the difference between standard local authority care and high-quality, consistent healthcare. As an active member of the firm base forum, I have seen a lot of the issue and I have seen how needs are addressed.
The minister will remember visiting with me Remploy’s veterans employment project in Hamilton last year, when we heard at first hand about the challenges faced by veterans in gaining support and, in some cases, the challenge of actually admitting that they need support. He will remember that consistency of service was one of the biggest challenges faced, and I believe that the commissioner will take steps to address any inconsistencies.
I believe that, like the other good partnerships and collaborations that the Scottish Government has with veterans organisations in Scotland, the new veterans commissioner—a first in the United Kingdom—will add to the successful approach taken by our minister in Scotland. Our commitments paper demonstrates clearly that the SNP Government understands the sacrifice that veterans have made and that we will do all that we can to provide the highest quality of care and support.
14:56
I welcome the debate, and I am pleased to be able to offer a few brief remarks.
As the motion rightly acknowledges, we owe a considerable debt to veterans, but the motion is also right to highlight the excellent work carried out by veterans organisations and others, many of whom are represented in the public gallery this afternoon, who support veterans and their families in a myriad of different ways.
I draw on my experience from Orkney, an area with proud military traditions. The Royal British Legion there has more than 2,000 members in Kirkwall and a further 500 in Stromness, representing not just 8 per cent but a full 12 per cent of the population all told. It is a very active branch and club, providing a focal point for bringing the local community together, both members and non-members.
Last year, I was fortunate enough to attend an event hosted by Veterans Scotland in Orkney. Understandably, it was well attended, but it was a real eye-opener for the likes of myself about the sort of issues faced by veterans transitioning out of the services. We have heard already from members about housing, joblessness and addiction issues, but it struck me that many of the issues were practical and were based on the extent to which some of those exiting the armed forces can find themselves institutionalised and unable to cope with some of the things that we find mundane and straightforward.
There are obviously issues around physical disabilities but, as Jim Eadie pointed out, there are also mental health issues. They can have a stigma attached to them and can be difficult for anybody to deal with, but they are particularly difficult for those with a services background.
For all those reasons, the way in which services are delivered, both locally and nationally, is important. It is not necessarily the case that forces veterans can access those services in the same way as those without that background, and a lot of good work is being done in that regard. Christina McKelvie has referenced the work of the citizens advice bureaux, which I am familiar with, and I echo her comments. There is growing evidence that the system is not working as well as it could or should, but I simply question whether a commissioner is the right approach.
I found myself agreeing with some of what Alex Johnstone was saying in that regard. Leaving aside the issues around the way in which the news was broken and the lack of discussion with business managers in the preparation of the motion—those are process issues—there is a more substantive risk that creating a commissioner and the staff to support that role will divert resources away from direct help to veterans. Why not use some of the additional £250,000 to build capacity in Veterans Scotland, in citizens advice bureaux and in other such organisations? From conversations that I have had locally in Orkney, I know that there is a plethora of organisations all doing excellent work, but there is already confusion and, as Alex Johnstone said, there is a risk that all we do over time is to exacerbate that.
The minister is right to highlight the continued problem with enabling veterans to access services and support, particularly at transitions. He might even be right that we require some means of bringing together the various organisations and agencies that are tasked with providing that support. However, I do not think that Parliament has been provided with evidence to suggest that the plan for a commissioner is the answer. We need reassurances that the office and role will not divert much-needed funds away from building capacity in organisations that already undertake valuable front-line work with veterans and their families.
So that we are clear about what we are voting on this afternoon, we also need an explanation as to why, as Mark Griffin said, if it is such a good idea, it was not good enough to get into the motion that was discussed with business managers. As the Presiding Officer made clear, in the Parliament, debates about and consideration of issues relating to veterans have been characterised by a genuine consensual and cross-party approach. I recognise the specific and direct insight that the minister has in the area and I agree with most of what he had to say, but I am concerned that his proposal for a commissioner needs more detailed scrutiny to ensure that we make best use of the resources that are available to assist those to whom we owe so much.
I welcome the opportunity to participate in the debate. I offer my assurance to Captain Macintosh that I will again be on duty in the service of this Parliament in our attempt to defeat our Royal Air Force comrades on the football field later this year.
On this occasion, I will allow nicknames.
15:01
I welcome the announcement of a commissioner, which I think is a step in the right direction. The minister suggests that the commissioner would oversee the provisions for veterans and explore where the gaps are and why they are there. That is an extremely good idea, despite the fact that we seem to have an extremely joined-up landscape at the moment. The minister suggested that he will consult on the commissioner’s remit, which is extraordinarily sensible, because it means that some of the questions that have reasonably been asked about what the commissioner will do can be dealt with in the remit that he or she is given when the time comes.
Clearly, some people find the transition out of the armed forces extraordinarily difficult. We can understand why that might be the case and we should see that beforehand. Every time someone moves into a new job, it should be obvious that at some point they will move out of it. I find it extraordinary that the armed forces did not work out a long time ago that they need to find ways of transitioning their members into civilian life. The Government’s commitments document, which was published fairly recently, has a threefold approach that involves providing support for servicemen, engaging with the community and providing personal services.
In passing, I note that the independence white paper makes a few observations about what we would do if we were in charge of absolutely everything. There is the idea that there should be no compulsory redundancies. The idea of someone getting their P45 on the battlefield does not appeal to me, and I do not think that it appeals to any member. There is also the idea that we might review pensions, in recognition that, for one reason or another, Scots do not seem to live quite as long as others. That undoubtedly applies to those who have been in the armed services, so we could reasonably look at that issue.
Another important issue is access to housing, which has been mentioned only briefly. I want to highlight an opportunity in Carnoustie in Angus. I have with me not so much a dodgy dossier as a dodgy picture of the minister, who appears to be in charge of an extremely large piece of equipment, which I think had just demolished some houses—I hope that he was not about to demolish them. Those houses are to be replaced by new housing, some of which is specifically for veterans. Appropriate accommodation is absolutely essential and is undoubtedly an extremely good idea for those who have been injured.
Rushing swiftly on, I want to pick up on the issue of mental health, which some members have mentioned. I am grateful to Mark Griffin for a new phrase. He mentioned that members of the armed forces come out into a “community of strangers”. That is a new phrase to me and one that I will remember. Christina McKelvie asked whether we understand, and the answer to that very obvious question is no. We also need to understand the “Just get on with it” attitude in the military. We know where it comes from, but it means that those who leave perhaps think that they just need to get on with the difficulties in life when, actually, they should not need to.
I have some quite alarming MOD statistics from the Falklands war. I am conscious that the minister had some involvement in that war. There were just under 26,000 UK armed forces personnel there. Some 237 sadly died during the campaign and, at the time of the report, 1,335 had died since 1982. More importantly for my point, 95 of those deaths were attributable to suicide or were open verdicts.
That is the sharp end of the health issues, and the issue will not go away. Many charities, including Combat Stress, are already working on it, and I suspect that we are still seeing only the tip of an iceberg. A great number of the cases will come later in life as other traumatic events affect those veterans. That is, perhaps, an issue to which we will have to return.
15:06
I am honoured to speak in the debate. Veterans and veteran issues are close to my heart, as I am an ex-Territorial Army soldier myself, having served in the 71st Royal Engineer regiment reserves and sponsored units.
The first paragraph of the armed forces covenant acknowledges that our armed forces and their families make huge sacrifices for our country. In return, we have a duty to give them and their families our respect and support. When veterans sign up for the ultimate sacrifice for our country, that is the least we can do.
Veteran issues are separate from our thoughts on war. We can strongly object to and oppose a war but, once our troops are there, it is our duty to support them through whatever problems and difficulties they experience during their time there and on their return home.
We are failing our veterans. They are often left to rely on charity hand-outs, which, in the current financial climate, can no longer be guaranteed. Therefore, the announcement of a commissioner is welcome. However, I would like him or her to have the powers to ensure that actual support is given to the veterans who he or she will be appointed to help.
Last month, I helped to organise a curry night in the Mosque Kitchen restaurant in Edinburgh for ABF the Soldiers’ Charity, which is a fantastic organisation. In 2013, it helped 170 veterans in Glasgow, spending £80,000 for their wellbeing. Worryingly, it has seen its case load rise over the past three years. It is particularly important to note that the charities that currently support our veterans face huge pressures and challenges.
Therefore, I am happy to support the motion, which mentioned support for veterans. I hope that we go on and ensure that we have a strategy in place that supports our veterans throughout the services that they normally look for.
I look forward to the commissioner making sure that our veterans’ needs are looked after better than they currently are. Many of our veterans go through a lot of hardship and their families suffer with them. That needs to change. Although I welcome the announcement of the commissioner and the resources to fund the post, I do not yet see the commissioner being given the strength and power to ensure that he or she will be able to carry out the job effectively, ensuring real support for our veterans. I hope that I will see that in the near future.
15:09
I, too, welcome the announcement of the creation of a new post of veterans commissioner.
I have a personal interest in the military, as my daughter’s boyfriend of around two-and-a-half years passed out as a Royal Marine just before Christmas. I congratulate him on achieving that esteemed position and on following in the footsteps of the minister, who is a former marine.
In 1915, the Scottish War Blinded charity was set up in Edinburgh to take those from the front line who had been blinded by mustard gas. That charity has gone from strength to strength and continues to support and rehabilitate not only veterans from recent wars such as those in Iraq, Afghanistan and Northern Ireland but veterans who have lost their sight due to age or infirmity. The charity has changed with the times, and the minister is sending a message that we must change with the times, too. There is a recognition that our veterans require additional support, which, for example, might take the form of their being placed at the top of the list for appropriate housing when they leave the forces, of general practitioner support being there when they need it or of hospital treatment being provided if it is needed.
I believe that the commissioner will be able to take up those issues and co-ordinate the many organisations that already exist and aid the partnership working that they do. As Liam McArthur said, there is a plethora of organisations in this area, which can in itself lead to confusion. I hope that the commissioner will be able to take some of that confusion away and provide co-ordination.
I believe that it was Churchill who said that there is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man. In my constituency, there is a charity called HorseBack UK, which uses horses to rehabilitate and enable personnel who have come back from a conflict, many of whom have lost limbs and have gone through the arduous and sometimes painful process of getting prosthetic limbs. However, the issue is not just one of being able to use the limbs correctly, but one of coming to terms with the amputation and the psychological aspects of having lost a limb and why.
The minister has visited HorseBack UK, and there is an open invitation for him to return when the weather is slightly better so that he can enjoy getting into the saddle along with some of the veterans and experience some of the work that the charity does.
HorseBack UK is an integral part of the community in Aboyne and west Aberdeenshire. It tries to give something back to the community. It talks about its work being about repaying and embracing its community. Most of its work is done outdoors, and it has school visits. It also provides team-building training for oil and gas companies. It provides professional strands of training through the disciplines that have been learnt through the military. It has given to many veterans who have struggled and continue to struggle with mental health issues a real sense of purpose in the community. I commend Jock Hutchison for the work that he continues to do.
I had hoped that Alex Johnstone and Liam McArthur would welcome the announcement regarding the commissioner and ask the minister a few questions about the purpose of the commissioner and what the role would look like.
I finish with the words of Martin Gibson of Veterans Scotland, who personally thanked the minister for the overall support for the wellbeing of veterans. I echo those words.
15:15
I am delighted to conclude the debate on behalf of my party and, as the convener of the cross-party group on armed forces veterans, declare something of an interest. In both those capacities, I welcome the debate, just as I welcome the interest that the Parliament has, since its earliest days, shown in veterans and the issues that they face.
That interest has been continued in a largely exemplary fashion by this Scottish Government. As Dennis Robertson highlighted, that has been welcomed by the armed forces and the veterans community. I sincerely trust that that level of Government support and interest will continue long into the future, no matter what party or combination of parties form our future Governments. The debt of gratitude that we owe to our serving and former servicemen and women, be they in their later years or their teens, demands no less. The motion before us is right to highlight that debt at the outset.
The motion is also right to highlight the truly phenomenal role played by veterans organisations and local authorities veterans champions in helping to focus attention on the many and varied issues and challenges that our veterans face. A quick glance at the agendas of the past few meetings of the cross-party group quite easily highlights those challenges.
We have looked at and discussed the armed forces charter and the Scottish Government’s “Our Commitments” paper. We have looked at the impact of the welfare reform programme on Scotland’s veterans; health and wellbeing issues; housing; and the all-important transition from military to civilian life. We have looked at issues relating to veterans in custody and, in the rest of our programme this year, we will revisit housing, mental health and wellbeing, and the “Our Commitments” paper.
The cross-party group is well attended and greatly valued by veterans organisations, but I would dearly love to see more colleagues at the quarterly meetings. For those in the chamber who have a diary with them, I give notice that the next meeting is on 5 February. I look forward to seeing them there.
The one sector that seems to have been slightly omitted from the motion, though certainly not in many members’ contributions, is the voluntary and charitable sector, whose efforts to help and support veterans is quite immense and, in monetary terms, invaluable. The charities range in size from well-known national organisations such as Poppyscotland, to small charities run by individuals, such as Southwest Scotland RnR in my constituency, which organises courses of what I would call competitive recreation for young physically and often mentally damaged soldiers returning from war zones. That charity simply aims at—and nearly always succeeds in—putting a smile back on the faces of those young people after the traumatic experiences that they have faced on tour—experiences that were vividly highlighted by Mark Griffin in his opening speech.
I share some of the reservations about the commissioner’s role that were expressed by Alex Johnstone and Liam McArthur. If I have one particular reservation it is that he or she may be tempted to tinker with and overformalise the work of the voluntary sector and the smaller charities. I hope that that will not be the case, but I suspect that there will be a temptation to do so, which should be firmly resisted.
I am sorry to conclude on a slightly negative note. I very much welcome the Presiding Officer’s opening statement and register my own disappointment that the announcement of the commissioner was leaked to the media before today’s debate. That blatant bypassing of parliamentary procedure is something of a slap in the face for those who worked to ensure that we had a consensual motion before us this afternoon. I do not believe that it reflects on the personal efforts of the minister and I do not hold him responsible. However, it somewhat diminishes the respect with which his Government is viewed by the rest of the chamber and has cast something of a cloud over an otherwise worthwhile and consensual debate, which has included excellent contributions from all sides of the chamber.
15:19
I close the debate on behalf of the Labour Party as I opened it, by restating the continued support that we give our armed forces personnel and veterans. It is telling that, as was pointed out by Ken Macintosh and Hanzala Malik, public support for our armed forces continues to rise despite what some would consider contentious conflicts that not all members of the public support.
We owe a debt of gratitude to members of the armed forces and veterans, and we will be able to mark some of the key events from world war one over the next few years. I have met Norman Drummond, chair of the Scottish commemorations panel, who outlined the key dates and events that will commemorate some of the events that have a particularly strong Scottish dimension. I look forward to attending as many of those events as possible over the next few years.
As well as work at a national level to commemorate events, local projects are on-going. As Ken Macintosh said, the Mearns history group has collated the records of the commitment of local people from the community who fought in world war one. The Croy Historical Society has compiled records in my region, to which I made a small contribution, with my great uncle’s “Soldier’s Bible” from the first world war, which was passed on to me—the Bibles were awarded to him and members of his regiment by the lord provost of Rutherglen before they went on service.
Those serving in our armed forces are asked to make massive personal human rights sacrifices and, ultimately, to give up their right to life in service of the nation. Christina McKelvie and Hanzala Malik mentioned that in their speeches, continuing on from the excellent debate secured by Christina McKelvie on the ASAP report, which was welcomed right across the chamber. It is only right that Governments and we as a nation value, respect and support our armed forces, culminating in the annual commemoration of armistice day, when we stop to remember those who have given their lives in action so that we can enjoy the freedom that we experience today. Members of the armed forces have fallen back on that military covenant, when Governments in Scotland and across the UK and the wider public are able to show their support for them.
Members might know that I spent some time in the Territorial Army, in relation to which I have not had a similar experience in any other part of my life. Although I went through all the training that a reservist can, I did not deploy to any military conflict zone because of university and work commitments, so I cannot even start to imagine the level of intensity and commitment to fellow soldiers that go with a front-line experience.
Having had that front-line experience, soldiers who return to society often enter that community of strangers that Nigel Don flagged up from my opening speech. That is what makes the Royal British Legion and other community focal points so important. For example, as Liam McArthur mentioned, the legion in Orkney operates with a large degree of community support, given that it has 12 per cent of the population as members. With that focus on reintegrating members of the armed forces into the community, such organisations break down that community of strangers barrier and allow people who have the same experiences to interact. If people from the wider public are brought in, they can talk through a lot of their experiences in active service with them, spreading much more widely throughout the community an understanding of the role and the pressure that they are under. The support and advice that such community organisations and others provide are vital.
A number of members used the word “plethora” when talking about the number of veterans organisations, which can be confusing for armed forces veterans. I hope that the veterans commissioner’s first action will be to address that point and make his or her door the first port of call for a veteran who is looking to be pointed towards the support services that they need.
I hope, too, that the commissioner will build on the work of veterans champions in local authorities. In North Lanarkshire Council, for example, the work of the veterans champion has led to housing policy being amended to recognise the priority needs of homeless ex-service personnel—and their families—before they are discharged from the forces, so that appropriate housing can be identified and prepared before veterans rejoin the community.
I support the motion in the minister’s name and I support the establishment of a veterans commissioner. I look forward to the consultation on the commissioner’s role and responsibilities.
15:25
I am grateful to all members who have spoken. We heard some good speeches, which contained knowledge, insight, suggestions and indeed criticisms. I will try to address members’ points, particularly their constructive criticisms.
It is unfortunate that there is contention, but any Government proposal must be open to comment and criticism. However, on the two substantive criticisms, which I think were made by Alex Johnstone and Liam McArthur and were to do with remit and resources, I said in my opening speech that we are not only applying new resources to the post, which have been found from the Scottish Government, although not from the veterans budget, but putting additional money—about £100,000, I think—into capacity building. Liam McArthur suggested that money should be used in that way. I therefore thought that we had covered the issue and allowed for unanimous support for the post.
On remit, I said that we intend to consult further, not least with Veterans Scotland. If members have suggestions, I will be more than willing to listen to them. On Alex Fergusson’s point, it is certainly not my view that the commissioner should have oversight of the charities that comprise Veterans Scotland. I have made that point to Veterans Scotland, and I am sure that it will not be suggested that such oversight form part of the commissioner’s remit.
I think that the proposal is positive and is of a piece with the Government’s approach, which has been pretty innovative. The first minister to have responsibility for veterans—Stewart Maxwell, who is in the chamber—was appointed back in 2007. He established the Scottish veterans fund, which was the first such fund in Scotland. The paper, “Our Commitments: Scottish Government Support for the Armed Forces Community in Scotland”, represented a new departure and set out expectations on how Government and others should meet veterans’ needs.
As Alex Fergusson said, there is also the cross-party group on armed forces veterans. I was involved in the establishment of the group, which is a great addition to the Parliament. Whether we are talking about the Government or the Parliament, we have upped our game on veterans over the past few years.
It is not the case that whenever there is a debate on veterans we should all naturally fall into consensus mode. I have never thought that. However, it would be useful to have a consensus about the role that we expect the commissioner to undertake. Given the assurance that resources will not come from other veterans-related activities—in fact, additional money is going into such activities—and the assurance about consultation on the commissioner’s remit, I hope that we will be able to reach unanimity.
Mark Griffin mentioned support for Britain’s reservists and employers. I am involved with SaBRE, although I have to say that I have attended my local organisation fairly infrequently. The organisation is important and looks after the interests of reservists and other parts of the armed forces.
Many organisations have been mentioned and it is perhaps invidious of me to mention only two or three, but given that a number of members mentioned Scottish Veterans Residences, I take the opportunity to thank very much Lieutenant Colonel Ian Ballantyne, who recently retired from the post of chief executive of the organisation. He happens to have been my company commander when I served in the Falklands and has had a fantastic career since then. He is succeeded in his post by Phil Cox, who I am sure will continue the good work that the organisation does.
As we set out in “Scotland’s Future: Your Guide to an Independent Scotland”, irrespective of the outcome of the referendum—I go back to a point that Alex Fergusson made—there has been a fairly substantial consensus on and a very progressive approach to veterans affairs by the Parliament and the parties in it. I hope that that will continue, regardless of either constitutional or political change in the future, and I believe that it will, not least because of the point that Ken Macintosh, I think, made. Over the past few years, there seems to have been an increasing appreciation of the role of the armed services, and people seem to be able to divorce that appreciation from any views that they may have on the conflict in which the armed services are serving. That is a very welcome development, and we hope that it will continue.
I will not go into all the stuff about constitutional change, but Nigel Don made one or two points, one of which in particular bears repeating. It related to the idea of no compulsory redundancies. It could be said that that is really a matter for the Government to take on if the result of the independence vote is yes, but it is important in this context because compulsory redundancies make people veterans by force and make their becoming veterans much more traumatic, not least if they have been serving on the front line and are suddenly presented with a P45 and told that they are no longer required. That is why it was important to mention that issue. We are committed to delivering better outcomes for those who have, in many cases, sacrificed a great deal to defend our freedoms, and to ensuring that that better deal is felt across all our devolved responsibilities.
The creation of the post of veterans commissioner is an attempt to take that forward. As I have said, we are still willing to listen to what others have to say, but my view is that the very good things that are currently being done can be pulled up to a higher level. Mark Griffin made a point about what has been done in respect of housing in North Lanarkshire. I hope that the commissioner will be able to see, in looking at that, that it is an excellent development and that they will ask why it cannot happen elsewhere, why there is not uniformity, if that is required, and whether it would be easier for veterans who may have joined up in one location and have perhaps become a veteran in a different location to have a better and more uniform approach to the services that they require. Such uniformity may not be needed, but the commissioner could usefully take up such issues. As I mentioned at the start of the debate, thematic inquiries could be undertaken into some of the current provision.
The commissioner is therefore of a piece with a fairly progressive approach that the Government has taken. It is the first such post in the UK. We and the UK Government have looked at the issue of an ombudsman. I refute the idea that things were done in a hurry; the idea has been developed over many months and there have been a number of discussions, not least to find out what has been done in Canada. We have not followed the same model. The comments that were made about the plethora of ombudsman-type positions are true. However, as I said in my opening speech, we are not saying that the person should be responsible for taking up individual cases, although they can listen to individual veterans.
To respond to another point, the post will not be paid for by the Parliament; it will be paid for by the Scottish Government as part of the veterans activities that we undertake.
Members have a real opportunity to agree on the commissioner’s role and to see whether the commissioner can start to make the difference that the ombudsman’s role in Canada has made, although the roles will not be the same. The role in Canada has made a great difference to veterans there. From what I have heard from around the world, I believe that it very much depends on the individual who is selected to do the work. The important thing is not the statutory underpinning of the post. The appointment will not be a statutory appointment in the way that Alex Johnstone described; it will be made by the Scottish Government. What is really important is the person’s standing in the veterans community and whether they are credible and understand the issues that are at stake.
I would like the commissioner not only to address the needs of veterans who are particularly disadvantaged, but to develop a wider focus on unlocking the potential of veterans so that their skills and experience can be brought to bear for the benefit of all Scotland. Most members present must have heard a veteran who was looking for a job on leaving the service say to them, “Well, I’m not really qualified to do anything.” They are completely unaware of the skills that they have developed over a number of years in the services. It is incumbent on all of us, and it will be incumbent on the commissioner, to ensure that people realise their potential when they rejoin civilian life.
Members have commented on the first world war and the commemoration of it. I was asked to do a foreword for a study on the war memorial in Dunblane, which went through every individual on the memorial. The first people to lay a wreath at that war memorial—in 1921, I think—were a mother and father who had lost three of their four sons in the conflict. To go back to a point that was made earlier, it was really interesting to go through the individual stories of each of the people involved, as they are often forgotten. We see the names, but it is very important to remember that that those people were part of a family and a community and to find out what their role was.
On other kinds of service, Ken Macintosh mentioned football. I once played against a services outfit. He said that I was “useful”, but I think that I was just too slow to get out of the way and nearly severely injured one of the very fast service personnel who was playing against us. I was also happy to play against a Hearts legends team—it is never a hard task to play against a Hearts team, admittedly—although they beat us, I think, 13-2. Hearts have a proud tradition of working with Erskine and all that goes with the history of Hearts. I am not sure that I will be present when the fixture comes up next time, but I will certainly be there in spirit.
I close by again recording my thanks to the vast and diverse array of veterans charities. Some people have suggested that there could be a role for the commissioner in bringing them together or putting them in order, but it is not about that—it is about something else entirely. We are just trying to ensure that the services are right. The charities do a considerable amount of work on behalf of veterans, providing advice, assistance and support as well as signposting to services elsewhere. They also represent veterans at local and national levels and inform our policy thinking and development, which is an invaluable role. I congratulate them on all their fantastic work. They support the estimated 400,000 veterans in Scotland, for which they have our gratitude.