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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, January 13, 2011


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2818)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Later today, I will make an announcement with one of the world’s leading online companies, Amazon, which intends to create 950 new full-time jobs in Scotland at two locations—in Dunfermline and Gourock. I know that all members will want to welcome such a positive boost for the Scottish economy in this new year.

Iain Gray

We always welcome new jobs in Scotland.

In October, I announced Labour’s policy on a single Scottish police force and challenged the First Minister to join us. However, he set up sub-groups of the police board and the ministerial advisory committee. They have reported, so he has set up a consultation, which will report to a commission. Is the First Minister incapable of taking a decision? Does he agree or does he not agree that Scotland should have a single police force?

The First Minister

As Kenny MacAskill said yesterday, change is inevitable. The status quo is not an option. Kenny MacAskill has set out the Government’s position on the police and the fire service and we have been closely examining the arguments. If we are going to make the greatest change in policing in Scotland for more than a generation, examination of the arguments and an attempt to build consensus seem to me to be particularly important.

As has been said, the status quo is not an option. Kenny MacAskill clearly laid out the advantages and disadvantages of other approaches. We will work to achieve a solution that is in the best interests of Scotland and front-line policing, and which maintains democratic accountability and generates the consensus across society with which such a major change should be introduced.

Presiding Officer, “This is daft stuff.” [Interruption.]

Order.

Iain Gray

Presiding Officer,

“When you have to make the decisions, when you are First Minister, you can’t afford to be on two or three sides of the same issue at the same time, you have to make your decision and stick with it, live with it.”

Those are not my words; that is what Alex Salmond told the newspapers at the weekend. He is consulting on three options for the police, but the Cabinet Secretary for Justice said on television last night that the Government is now down to two options for the police, although perhaps one option is stronger than the other. Is it three options, two options or one option? This is “daft stuff”; in fact, it is pathetic. When will the First Minister act as he says a First Minister should act and make his

“decision and stick with it, live with it”?

The First Minister

I am delighted that Iain Gray has given me the opportunity to remind a wider audience of the reason for my talking about being

“on two or three sides of the same issue”.

I was referring to the council tax, of course, and to Iain Gray’s attack on the council tax freeze. He said that the bills would have to rise under the Labour Party. Just a few days later, he said that he did not have anything against the council tax freeze. A few days after that, he said that council tax bills would have to go up, but perhaps be limited in how much they increased. Iain Gray is in a very poor position to talk about being on two or three sides of a single issue. He cannot make his mind up on anything.

It is vital that we gain consensus across Scottish society on police reform but, as Kenny MacAskill noted yesterday, Labour has not even achieved consensus within the Labour Party. Prominent Labour councillors have attacked the idea of a single police force. It would be of benefit, if only as an educational experience, if the Labour Party took part in the consultation so that we can move together to get the best result for Scotland and Scottish policing.

Iain Gray

I know what Councillor Eric Milligan thinks on the issue and what Tricia Marwick MSP thinks on it, too. She, too, is against a single police force. However, I simply do not know what the First Minister thinks.

Last July, the First Minister’s spokesperson said:

“We have no plans to move away from eight police forces”.

In October, the First Minister himself told The Daily Telegraph that he was opposed to the creation of a single Scotland-wide operation. The same month, his spokesperson said that there would be more than one force but fewer than eight. Last night, his justice secretary said that the case for one force was the strongest. Is it not the case that the First Minister does not even have a consensus with himself on the issue?

The First Minister

As the arguments have been examined, it has become clear that the option of a single police force offers significant savings, which are essential given the mess that the Labour Party made of the economy and the consequent pressure on public finance. Unlike the Labour Party, we stood on a manifesto commitment to have 1,000 extra police on the streets of Scotland, and we have delivered that commitment. Under the public spending pressures from the coalition Government, we know that change is necessary to maintain front-line policing. As the issue is examined, the single police force offers a substantial opportunity for efficiencies that will help on the front line.

There are questions of democratic accountability, however. They are serious questions, and no doubt they are the questions that are in the mind of Councillor Eric Milligan as he opposes Iain Gray’s plans. That is why the argument and the examination have to be worked through. If the greatest change in policing in a generation is being proposed, it really is sensible to examine the issues carefully, to come to the conclusions together and to carry a consensus in Scottish society, so that Scotland’s police force is the people’s police force.

Iain Gray

I still do not know what the First Minister thinks. Yes, it is a serious issue—that is why it demands leadership. We can all see how painful it is for the First Minister to sit on this fence. Dither, delay and dodging decisions: that is the First Minister’s modus operandi, and he is a serial offender. On public sector reform, a commission is to report—after the election. On higher education, there is to be a Scottish solution—after the election. On climate change targets, there is to be no action until after the election. On police and fire services, there is to be a consultation—which is to conclude after the election. Has the First Minister just given up on governing at all?

The First Minister

The council tax freeze is being delivered in Scotland now. The ending of prescription charges is being delivered in Scotland now. A thousand extra police on the streets is being delivered in Scotland now. We have an Administration that has maintained and kept 90 per cent of its manifesto commitments, which is far and away above anything that the Labour Party did. That is 84 out of 94 commitments.

This Administration is saying to people that, in return for the wage restraint that is necessary to protect jobs in the public sector, we will protect household budgets. This Administration does not have a leader who appears on the front of a placard outside the Parliament saying “No Wage Freeze” just days after appearing on the radio saying that a wage freeze was essential. This Administration is delivering for the people of Scotland. It is an Administration that looks for consensus, because consensus is important. It is an Administration that will be re-elected in three months’ time.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-2819)

I have no plans to meet the secretary of state in the near future.

Annabel Goldie

Today, we have more than 1,000 more police officers than we had four years ago. Just before the First Minister indulges in selective amnesia, however, I remind him that that was made possible only because of the Scottish Conservatives. If it had been left to Labour, there would not have been any more police officers at all. If it had been left to the SNP, there would have been 500 fewer.

Maintaining the extra 1,000 officers is a political priority for me and for the Scottish Conservatives, not just for this year but for the next four years. That is my commitment and the Scottish Conservatives’ commitment. Will the First Minister match it?

Yes, I will.

Annabel Goldie

I am delighted by that response. I welcome the First Minister’s apparent clarity and I congratulate him on yet again following a Conservative lead. However, I must take his assurance with a pinch of salt: after all, he tried to break the selfsame commitment four years ago. That was naughty and I had to tweak him back.

At least the First Minister made a commitment, which was more than can be said for Labour, which made no commitment then and has none now. Is it not a simple fact that when it comes to keeping Scotland safe and protecting our public, Labour is silent, the SNP is soft and the only people who can be trusted are the Scottish Conservatives?

The First Minister

When Annabel Goldie was upbraiding me just then I was thinking that matron definitely knows best what I must and must not do.

I accept that some key commitments that we have been able to achieve have been achieved because we appealed for support across the Parliament. I am perfectly happy to acknowledge the Conservative party’s support, which was essential in delivering the 1,000 extra police officers, just as, for example, the Liberal Democrats’ support was essential when we removed back-end tuition fees in Scotland. That is the inevitability of minority government.

Let us look at justice and policing policy in the round. Not only do we have the lowest crime rate in Scotland for 30 years but, for the first time, people’s fear of crime in communities is falling. The reason why is precisely that we have those extra officers on the streets. That is the essence of what we should be trying to do and what we have achieved together—at least to some extent—during the past few years.

However, I gently remind Annabel Goldie that she should cast a look at what her colleagues south of the border are doing. It seems to me that on a number of aspects of the approach to crime and punishment Kenneth Clarke is following not Annabel Goldie’s prescription and policies but the SNP Government in Scotland’s prescription and policies. I think that Kenneth Clarke is wise to say that short sentences have little value compared with alternative forms of punishment. He is wise to follow that line. Of course, that policy was put through the Parliament with the support of not the Conservative party but the Liberal Democrats.

Over the piece, I think that we can say that together we have achieved substantial things in the justice policy of Scotland. What really matters is that having those police on the streets is leading to a 30-year low in recorded crime in Scotland.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-2820)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Tavish Scott

The Scottish Government has withdrawn all figures to support its assertion in favour of a national police force. Will the First Minister therefore guarantee to publish robust and validated new figures, that show the full cost of setting up a single police force, including costs of a new headquarters, enhanced redundancies and information technology?

The First Minister

That is what we are bringing forward as part of the consultation process that Kenny MacAskill outlined yesterday.

Tavish Scott must face a certain fact: the opportunities for cost savings in the back office in a single police force are very substantial. If he is going to argue against having a single police force, as I assume he is going to do, he must base his arguments on whether the advocates of a single force can ensure the democratic line of accountability and local contribution to policing in Scotland. That is where the answers must be found on the proposal for a single police force, and not—I say with respect—in trying to pretend that a single police force would not offer substantial back-office savings, which could be deployed on the front line.

Tavish Scott

I agree with the First Minister that it is an important debate, but he surely needs to accept that Labour’s police reorganisation in England was cancelled because it was going to cost £500 million. Has he not read the papers on his own Scottish policing board? The Government’s own Improvement Service said that

“supporting evidence is caveated almost to the point of parody”

and that

“the analysis ... is an abuse of evidence”.

David Strang, the chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police, said that the figures in the draft proposal were

“irresponsibly misleading and not supported by the evidence”.

As Mr Salmond knows, the chief constable in his area, Colin McKerracher, said there was not a “shred of evidence” to support a single police force.

Is it normal for the First Minister’s Government to make an assertion first and to look for the evidence afterwards? What evidence can he produce to show that his Government has the slightest clue about how much the centralisation will cost?

The First Minister

Clearly, there is a substantial body of opinion in the police force and elsewhere in favour of a single force. Senior police officers such as the chief constable of Strathclyde Police and the deputy chief constable of Lothian and Borders Police would not argue the case unless they believed that a substantial opportunity was to be found in creating a single police force.

On the initial part of Tavish Scott’s second question, I assure him that, in making the greatest change in the police service of Scotland for more than a generation, we shall not follow any prescription from what the Labour Party tried to do and abandoned south of the border. If he is saying that the confusion and disarray that happened when the Labour Party was in charge of police reform in England is another argument for ensuring that it is never in a position to reintroduce confusion and disarray in Scotland, then, in this new year, I agree with him.

Duncan McNeil (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)

Earlier this week, I was contacted by Blairs Ltd of Greenock—a manufacturing company with a great reputation that has operated successfully in my constituency for more than a century—with the bad news that, despite the sacrifices of the workforce and the commitment of management, the economic downturn has forced it to call in the receivers and make 100 employees redundant. There remains a very small window—possibly as little as 48 hours—in which the company can be preserved as a going concern. Alternatively, it faces being broken up, which would be an act of economic vandalism.

Will the First Minister add his support for the management and workforce, who are fighting to salvage something from that grave situation? What will he do to impress upon the insolvency practitioners and the banks—in this case, the Bank of Scotland—that they need to look beyond the narrow and short-term financial considerations and face up to their wider responsibility to jobs and the local economy in these difficult times?

The First Minister

Of course, I will arrange for the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth to contact the constituency member immediately and establish whether a helpful intervention would be possible, as we do—as I am sure Duncan McNeil is aware—in such cases throughout the country. If we can help, we certainly shall intervene to do so.

I know that Duncan McNeil would be the first person to welcome the jobs boost from Amazon that affects his constituency as well as Fife. I also know that he will reflect that one of the most positive signs from the current economic statistics for Scotland is that manufacturing is doing extremely well over the piece. However, that does not mean that individual companies are not still encountering difficulties Of course, access to finance and the attitude of the financial organisations often contribute to the causes of those difficulties.

Alison McInnes (North East Scotland) (LD)

The First Minister will be aware of the significant job losses that have been announced at the Les Taylor Group of companies, which is based at Mintlaw and Ellon in my region. Last Friday, 164 people lost their jobs, and another 19 were made redundant on Monday this week. That is a significant loss of jobs within the rural economy of Aberdeenshire. What actions will the First Minister and his ministers take to support those who have lost their jobs and minimise the impact on the local economy? Will he ensure that a partnership action for continuing employment team is mobilised to assist?

The First Minister

Yes—a PACE team is being deployed to assist. I am well aware of the company, its background and its history. The company is in my former Westminster constituency. As Alison McInnes knows, Les Taylor himself died tragically last year. Losing somebody of his ability, skill and leadership was a serious blow to the company.

I will ensure that the PACE team is mobilised, as I know is happening. I am perfectly happy to arrange for the economic ministers to meet Alison McInnes to talk about the issue.


VAT and Fuel Duty Increases



4. To ask the First Minister what the impact will be on Scottish public services of the recent rises in VAT and fuel duty. (S3F-2821)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The recent increases in VAT and fuel duty introduced by the United Kingdom Government will generate additional pressures for Scottish businesses, families and public services at a time when Scotland is already facing unprecedented cuts in public spending and economic recovery remains fragile.

As Mr Gibson is aware, the Scottish Government has written to the UK Government opposing the increases and making the case for a fuel duty stabiliser—an idea that was supported by the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer before the election, although they now seem to be extraordinarily reluctant to introduce it when the time is right for such an initiative.

Kenneth Gibson

Does the First Minister agree that it is a shocking indictment of successive UK Governments that they have imposed the highest fuel duty in Europe on Scottish motorists in order to maximise revenue? Most of Europe’s oil comes from Scotland, but shamefully we have to pay more for it at the pumps than any other nation. The burden of additional UK VAT and fuel duty will make Scottish goods and services less competitive and it will cost jobs by draining £2.4 billion from Scotland into the Treasury’s coffers this year. Will the First Minister therefore engage with the UK Government to seek the restoration of the funds that have been taken by the Treasury from the Scottish block to avoid further cuts in public services, and to seek the establishment of a fuel duty regulator?

The First Minister

Yes I do, and yes I will. It is probably worth explaining the point that the fuel duty regulator does not concern the £10 billion of expected revenue from Scotland’s oil and gas reserves flowing into the Treasury in the coming year. A fuel duty regulator makes the argument that, when there is an oil price increase and an unexpected surge in revenues of £1 billion over and above the £10 billion, some of it should be applied to fuel duty and to regulating and giving stability to the price at these times. We have long argued for that, and the Prime Minister supported it before the election. I would not want to see the Prime Minister making a major commitment and then breaking it by going the same way as the Deputy Prime Minister did on tuition fees.


Pandemic Flu Budget



5. To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Government will revisit plans to remove £10 million from the Scottish pandemic flu budget in light of concerns expressed regarding the potential rate of influenza A (H1N1). (S3F-2829)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Jackie Baillie has not done herself any favours in the way she has raised this issue during the past two weeks. As she is well aware, the £10 million was for a flu pandemic. We have a serious flu issue in Scotland at the moment—as, indeed, they have elsewhere in the United Kingdom—but we do not have a pandemic. If the circumstances change in the next year, we will handle them as the health secretary handled things when we did have a pandemic in Scotland.

As far as possible, such issues should be handled by a united Parliament and chamber. Even the sternest critics of this Administration would probably concede the that Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing and our outstanding health service handled last year’s flu pandemic with great efficiency and skill. I gently remind Jackie Baillie that our preparedness for this year’s seasonal flu outbreak, in the supply and availability of vaccine, for example, seems to be somewhat more robust than it is elsewhere.

Jackie Baillie

I associate myself with the First Minister’s comments about the NHS because it has pulled out all the stops to deal with flu. I am sure that the First Minister will also agree that we need to avoid any complacency in dealing with H1N1 flu strains in future years. He will, of course, be aware that flu viruses can mutate, that vaccines might need to be varied, and that vaccine stocks might need to be increased to deal with the situation.

Will any contingency budget be available if the £10 million is removed? Is the First Minister aware of the increasing concern that was highlighted by England’s chief medical officer about mortality rates among people with co-infection, particularly group A streptococcal infection and meningococcal disease? What contingency plans does the Scottish Government have in place to deal with that?

The First Minister

We have a full preparatory contingency to deal with that along with the preparatory budget, which remains in place. As Jackie Baillie is well aware, we are not talking about this year’s budget for seasonal flu preparedness, but about a contingency budget for the purchase of vaccine in the event of a pandemic.

There are a number of reasons why we do not invoke such a budget if we are not in a pandemic, not the least of which—as Jackie Baillie is also aware—is the fact that flu vaccine has a shelf life after which it cannot be used. Although maximum preparedness requires vaccine availability in order for us to be able to respond to any situation, nobody would argue for the purchasing of a pandemic vaccine whose shelf life might run out before we faced a pandemic. That would be a major misuse of public money, which could instead be reinforcing the health service’s superb handling of the current flu situation in Scotland.

I recognise and welcome the fact that we have unity in our praise for our health service, our health service workers, NHS 24 and the doctors, nurses and chemists of Scotland for the way in which they are handling the current flu situation in Scotland.

The First Minister will be aware of the calls from some parents for vaccination of all young children against flu—a call that does not, however, have scientific or medical support. Where does the Scottish Government stand on the issue?

The First Minister

We follow the expert advice of the relevant committee, and both health departments north and south of the border follow the same advice. Such judgments are always difficult to make, but in the circumstances, to follow the best medical advice of the committee that has been established to give that advice seems to be the sensible and proper thing to do.


Legal Aid (Court Delays)



6. To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to deal with court delays caused by legal aid problems. (S3F-2822)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Legal Aid Board introduced changes on 16 August 2010 that were intended to simplify and modernise the operation of the Scottish legal aid system. Those changes are being closely monitored to ensure that the profession and the wider justice community are fully aware of them and to speed up decisions on legal aid applications.

Robert Brown

My concern was raised by reports of the adjournment of criminal cases in sheriff courts across the country. In Wick recently, five out of 18 cases that were called were put off for that reason, which was the subject of judicial comment from the bench. In Glasgow, an adjournment was allegedly caused by the new legal aid procedures, to which the First Minister has referred, requiring more financial documentation before the court. Lawyers are claiming that the changes were introduced without consultation. I accept entirely that people who get criminal legal aid must support their applications properly; however, does the First Minister accept that the net effect on the public purse is going entirely the wrong way if trials are put off at substantial public cost, to say nothing of the frustration and inconvenience that are caused to witnesses? Will he ensure, as a matter of urgency, that the Scottish Legal Aid Board sorts out the difficulties that are causing these costly delays?

The First Minister

Let us look at the cases that Robert Brown raises. Of the cases at Wick sheriff court on 5 January, none related directly to the changes that were introduced last August. Legal aid had been granted in one of the cases, but was refused in two cases because the applicants earned more than the means-tested threshold. Two cases were continued because the applicants earned more than the means-tested threshold and two were continued because a bank statement and other verification of income had not been provided.

The solicitors and applicants have the prime responsibility to ensure that the information is provided properly; otherwise, a decision whether to grant legal aid cannot be made. The Scottish Legal Aid Board has been working with the profession to ensure that there is full understanding of last year’s changes and to avoid mistakes being made that could result in court delays.

James Kelly (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)

When Parliament passed emergency legislation in October, following the Cadder judgment, we were told that it would require 500 additional police officers and would result in an increase in the legal aid budget. What action is the Scottish Court Service taking to ensure that the impact of the new arrangements on legal aid procedures and the legal aid budget is minimised?

The First Minister

All the new arrangements regarding legal aid budgets and procedures are monitored closely. I caution the member that, just as in politics we are always told not to believe everything that we read in the newspapers, Labour members should not necessarily believe the propaganda points that they made during a debate. I assure the member that these matters are all properly considered in terms of both the change in legislation and its consequences for legal aid.

12:29 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—