Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
Good afternoon. The first item of business this afternoon is stage 3 proceedings on the Victims and Witnesses (Scotland) Bill. Members should have the bill as amended at stage 2, which is SP bill 23A; the marshalled list of amendments, which is SP bill 23A-ML; and the groupings list, which is SP bill 23A-G.
The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes for the first division of the afternoon. The period of voting for the first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate. Members who want to speak in the debate on any group of amendments should press their request-to-speak buttons as soon as possible after I call the group.
Members should now refer to the marshalled list of amendments.
Before section 1
Group 1 is on the definition of “victim”. Amendment 25, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is the only amendment in the group.
The bill confers a range of rights on victims but fails to provide a definition of “victim”. Amendment 25 reflects the Justice Committee’s recommendation in its stage 1 report that
“the Scottish Government gives full consideration to including a definition of ‘victim’ on the face of the Bill.”
At stage 2, I lodged an amendment that was similar to amendment 25. The Cabinet Secretary for Justice said that he was open to including a definition in the bill, but he identified areas of my amendment that might benefit from clarification. That was helpful.
In response to the cabinet secretary’s comments, I redrafted the amendment to make a number of changes. Amendment 25 makes it clear that when referring to an alleged crime—that is, one that has not yet been proved in court—the use of the term “victim” would not prejudice the presumption of innocence. The use of the word “alleged” in the proposed definition avoids the risk that referring to a “victim” before a trial or a conviction could prejudice the justice process.
The proposed definition refers to damage to “tangible or intangible property” and extends the definition of “victim” to a prescribed relative, but only in cases in which a person has died as a result of a crime.
The cabinet secretary expressed concern that the amendment that I lodged at stage 2 was not future proofed, because the nature of crime and victims might change. In reality, no legislation can be drafted to cover every eventuality. As is the case with any piece of legislation, if changes are necessary further amendment can be made. The important point is that by linking the definition to offences we would ensure that it automatically applied to victims as the nature of crime changed and when new offences were legislated for.
Amendment 25 is intended to cover natural persons and legal entities in three sets of circumstances: when a crime is directly committed against the person; when a relative or dependant of a person suffers harm as a result of a crime that was committed against the person; and when a person suffers as a result of intervening to help another person, against whom a crime is being committed.
“Harm” is defined in such a way as to cover physical or emotional harm, economic loss and damage to property.
It seems strange that a bill that confers a range of rights on victims of crime does not include a definition of “victim”. The inclusion of a clear definition would help to provide clarity for individuals in what might be traumatic circumstances, thereby helping them to avoid further distress and anxiety. There is little point in making things easier for victims if we are unclear about who victims are.
A definition would assist the police, the Crown and the Scottish Court Service in determining and complying with their duties and obligations under the bill. The Law Society of Scotland deemed such an amendment necessary and said, as far back as stage 1, that a clear definition would be crucial if the bill is to deliver on its promise to
“put victims’ interests at the heart of on-going improvements to the justice system”.
I hope that that, coupled with the fact that the cabinet secretary’s helpful comments at stage 2 have been incorporated into the new definition, will enable the Scottish Government to support amendment 25.
I move amendment 25.
While it is true that the Justice Committee drew attention to the fact that the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 does not use the term “victim” in relation to matters that apply pre-conviction, using instead the term “complainer”, nevertheless, for the purposes of the bill, it is appropriate not to be too prescriptive.
Moreover, although subsection (1) of the amendment has the victim as a person
“who has suffered harm—”
including, in subsection (2) of the amendment,
“loss or damage to ... property”—
the rest of the amendment talks about offences against the “person”, implying, at least to me, that where someone has suffered damage to property alone, he would not be a victim. In my view, therefore, the amendment is defectively drafted and should be rejected.
I, too, would have difficulty in supporting the amendment as it stands. I said at stage 2 that I thought that in order to give it more flexibility, any definition would be better made by regulation than in the bill.
I am also concerned that the definition in amendment 25 is rather tight. For example, a victim can be
“a prescribed relative ... of a person who has died”.
However, it could be argued that the partner of someone who has been raped is also, in some senses, a victim. The definition in amendment 25 is too tight and we are unable to support it.
Amendment 25 would insert an overarching definition of “victim” into the bill. The amendment is a revised version of an amendment lodged at stage 2. I welcome the consideration that Margaret Mitchell has evidently given to the points raised last month.
That said, I remain of the view that by attempting to insert into the bill an overarching definition of such a clearly understood term, we significantly complicate matters and risk inadvertently excluding individuals who should benefit from the proposals in the bill or including those who would not fall into any reasonable interpretation of “victim”. After all, as I have argued throughout the passage of the bill, the word “victim” is used and understood without definition by justice organisations and victim support organisations throughout Scotland.
In relation to concerns that the word “victim” would negatively impact on the presumption of innocence, I am still of the view that by providing clarity in the context of individual sections, no assumption could be made that the accused is guilty. The relevant sections in the bill refer for example to
“a person who is or appears to be the victim of an offence”
or to circumstances in which an offence
“is alleged to have been committed against the person”,
with the reference tailored to the context.
Furthermore, the presumption of innocence is a right of the accused in every criminal case. That is enshrined in article 6(2) of the European convention on human rights and there are no circumstances in which that right can be departed from.
I note that amendment 25 has no consequential amendments. That means that, should it be agreed, it will sit alongside the section-specific definitions of “victim” in the bill, including the power for the Scottish ministers to prescribe relatives of victims in certain sections. To my mind, that will cause uncertainty and confusion.
While there has clearly been an attempt to deal with some of the concerns raised about the amendment lodged at stage 2, there remain similar concerns with amendment 25. There is still an implication that offences against property are not covered by the term “victim”, despite the inclusion of damage to property as a form of harm in subsection (2) of the amendment.
In subsection (1)(a) of the amendment, a person can be considered a victim only where the person has suffered harm
“because an offence has, or is alleged to have, been committed against the person”.
There is no mention of offences against property.
For those reasons, I consider it better to qualify and explain the use of the term “victim” only where necessary and to make it applicable to the circumstances, as in the bill as at present. I invite Margaret Mitchell to withdraw amendment 25.
I have listened carefully to the points that have been made but there is a point of principle here. It seems to me that including the definition of “victim” in the bill would be helpful to the very people that the bill serves to help, which is the victims themselves. A number of areas of concern have been raised. If someone is intent on finding fault, they will do. Nothing that has been mentioned could not be rectified. For that reason, I will press the amendment.
The question is, that amendment 25 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division. I suspend the proceedings for five minutes to allow the division bell to be rung and members to return to the chamber.
14:10
Meeting suspended.
14:15
On resuming—
We now proceed with the division on amendment 25.
For
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 13, Against 96, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 25 disagreed to.
Section 1—General principles
We move to group 2, on principles, standards of service and the provision of information, taking children into consideration. Amendment 1, in the name of Elaine Murray, is grouped with amendments 2, 26, 3, 27 and 7.
Amendments 1 and 2 aim to ensure that the specific needs, wishes and interests of children are taken into account by those persons who are required to fulfil the functions that are set out in section 1. Although much has improved in the experience of children as victims and witnesses in the criminal justice system, and despite there being significant good practice, cases still arise in which children and young people and their families say that their experience of the court case has traumatised them all over again. That could be avoided simply by asking children and young people how best to communicate with them and where they would like to meet.
A lack of active involvement by children and young people in selecting the most appropriate special measures for them is commonplace. Even when that does happen, it is often the case that not enough time is given to enable a child victim or witness to give an informed view of what might work best for them.
One key area of concern is the provision of information. Evidence shows that more than 60 per cent of people in the youth justice estate have difficulties with speech, language or communication. That makes it even more important for information to be made accessible. There is currently no requirement on anyone involved in criminal proceedings to communicate with children and young people in formats and ways that best suit their needs. That might include sending text messages about the date of a trial, sending out leaflets or emailing them links to videos about going to court, rather than just sending the person a lot of written material.
The purpose of amendment 3 is to require that, when
“setting and publishing standards”
in respect of victims and witnesses who are children, that must be done
“in such a way that the welfare of a child is of paramount consideration.”
Many child victims and witnesses complain about the long waits for trial, which are often upwards of 12 months. In some cases, they can even be as long as two years or more. That means a large part of a child’s life characterised by waiting in uncertainty. Children do not know whether their case will be in a few weeks or a few months. Court dates are often set and then cancelled at the last minute, which causes disruption and a protracted wait.
The test of a child’s welfare as being of “paramount consideration” already exists in Scots law, under section 16 of the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. In any case, the welfare of a child needs to be balanced with other tests and, in particular, with the interests of the accused and those of justice generally. Guidance on the matter already exists, to be applied in criminal proceedings in which children are involved. Amendment 3 is proportionate and necessary to ensure that the welfare test, which already applies to social work and other agencies working with vulnerable children, also applies to the justice authorities.
Amendments 26 and 27 define the meaning of “child” in the relevant sections.
During stage 2, the cabinet secretary expressed the view that specific reference to the needs of child witnesses should not be contained either in the general principles or indeed in the standards of service. I have therefore also lodged an alternative amendment, amendment 7, which introduces similar provisions in a separate section, After section 2A. I have lodged amendments covering both sets of provisions for Parliament’s consideration this afternoon.
In the week when the Parliament has paid tribute to Nelson Mandela, I provide a further quote from him:
“There can be no keener revelation of a society’s soul than the way in which it treats its children.”
Throughout the bill’s passage, we have heard about some shocking experiences of children in our criminal justice system. The Vulnerable Witnesses (Scotland) Act 2004 has made a significant difference, and the enactment of the bill before us, and its principles, will make a further difference. We also seek to improve practice.
Amendment 7, like the previous amendments that I have spoken to, seeks to provide for the needs, interests and wishes of child victims and witnesses through the provision of guidance on how to fulfil duties under sections 1 and 2 in particular. At stage 2, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice argued that the aim is for the bill to have universal application and that it would be inappropriate to single out any specific group, but children are special and they require to be treated specially in our criminal justice system. Had the cabinet secretary’s argument held sway, we would not even have had the 2004 act, never mind many of the excellent measures that are being brought into law today.
Amendment 7 seeks to ensure that the legal duties in the bill will be given effect through guidance that tries to take a more child-centred approach. That fits with Scottish ministerial priorities in other policy areas, and we should introduce such an approach in the criminal justice system as well.
I move amendment 1.
Section 1 sets out a number of general principles that are deliberately both high level and aspirational and are intended to inform the creation of standards of service under section 2. The intention behind the inclusion of a section on general principles was to set out the underlying aim of the bill for the justice system as a whole and to ensure that there is a level of consistency when justice agencies consider how they interact with victims and witnesses.
Elaine Murray’s amendments 1, 2 and 26 are identical to amendments that were lodged at stage 2. As I said then, I would expect the bodies that are listed to consider the needs, rights and wishes of children in the same way that we expect them to consider the needs, rights and wishes of all other victims and witnesses who are involved in criminal proceedings. My views on that have not changed.
At stage 2, I also asked whether, if we were to single out child victims and witnesses, as Elaine Murray’s amendments propose, we should not also include persons with mental or physical disabilities, older persons—and the list goes on. I think that the point remains valid. I simply reiterate that, while I absolutely agree that organisations should consider children’s requirements, I remain of the view that the general principles should be precisely that: general, and equally applicable to all groups of victims and witnesses who come into contact with the criminal justice system.
Section 2 requires various criminal justice organisations to set and publish standards of service for victims and witnesses. Elaine Murray’s amendment 3 places a duty on a person who sets and publishes standards under section 2, in so far as they could relate to a child, to do so in such a way that the child’s welfare is a paramount consideration. It is identical to an amendment that the member lodged at stage 2. Amendment 27 is consequential to amendment 3.
As I said previously, I welcome Elaine Murray’s commitment to child victims and witnesses. However, as with the amendments on the general principles, amendment 3 is simply unnecessary. I expect the bodies that set standards to give due consideration to children, as they would to any other group. Again, if we were to single out child victims and witnesses, should we not also single out other groups of victims and witnesses? The list could be considerable.
On amendment 7, I do not see that there would be any additional benefit from placing an obligation on the organisations that are listed in section 2(2) to prepare and publish guidance as to how they will consider the needs, rights and wishes of children when having regard to the general principles, setting standards of service and providing information. Surely it is better to let those organisations get on and set their standards, which will, no doubt, reference those matters with respect to all victims and witnesses. To put a duty on the organisations to prepare such guidance and lay it before the Parliament, which would require to be done before any standards of service were prepared and published, would inevitably slow down the setting of standards and remove organisations’ flexibility to change them quickly in the light of experience.
In summary, although I appreciate the intention behind the amendments in the group, they are unnecessary. I therefore invite Elaine Murray to withdraw amendment 1 and not move amendments 2, 26, 3, 27 and 7.
In order to see justice done, children against whom horrific offences have been committed are required to engage with a system that was designed by and for adults. They are among the most vulnerable children in our society and they deserve to be given the support that they need to give evidence and participate in the process effectively and in a way that minimises the impact of that engagement.
The court process can be confusing and intimidating to adults, never mind to children. It is essential that consideration is given to the most appropriate way in which to provide information to a child victim, whether that be orally, in writing or through other forms of communication. Child victims and witnesses must be empowered to participate as fully as possible and to understand the process and procedures that they will be exposed to during investigation and trial. Our courts are adversarial and the process is combative. Where children who may well already be traumatised by the crime that they witnessed or that was perpetrated against them are involved in the court process, their welfare must be made the highest priority.
Amendments 1 to 3, with the definitions in amendments 26 and 27, remain my preference. I believe that they would enshrine the rights of child witnesses and victims in the most appropriate parts of the bill. However, the cabinet secretary continues to believe that they would not, so if amendments 1 to 3, 26 and 27 are defeated, I will press amendment 7.
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
Amendment 2 moved—[Elaine Murray].
The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 2 disagreed to.
Amendment 26 not moved.
Section 2—Standards of service
Amendment 3 moved—[Elaine Murray].
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 3 disagreed to.
Amendment 27 not moved.
Section 2A—Reports
Amendment 4, in the name of Elaine Murray, is grouped with amendments 5 and 6.
14:30
At stage 2, the cabinet secretary lodged an amendment introducing section 2A, which requires the annual publication of a report assessing whether standards have been met and containing a forward look on how they might be met in the year ahead and sets out the ability of ministers to prescribe information by way of a negative instrument. At the same time, I lodged a similar amendment. In our view, Mr MacAskill’s amendment contained a serious omission, not contained in my own, in not requiring consultation as far as is practicable with victims and witnesses in the preparation of that report. Amendments 4, 5 and 6 seek to rectify that omission.
Amendment 4 seeks to require those persons mentioned in section 2 to consult as far as is reasonably practicable victims and witnesses in making a report on the meeting of standards. That was the principal difference between the cabinet secretary’s successful amendment and mine at stage 2.
Amendment 5 seeks to require Scottish ministers to consult the persons required to set and publish standards when making regulations that prescribe the information that must be contained in reports, while amendment 6 seeks to enable standards to be revised to meet the needs of victims and witnesses and to require publication of those revised standards.
These amendments seek to ensure that victims and witnesses are and continue to be involved at all stages of the development of standards and in the reporting on how those standards are met. After all, victims and witnesses are supposed to be the legislation’s central concern and omitting them from that process seems to fly in the face of its intentions.
I move amendment 4.
Section 2 requires various criminal justice organisations to set and publish standards of service for victims and witnesses. As a result of a Government amendment that was agreed unanimously by the Justice Committee at stage 2, each of the named organisations in section 2 will be required to consult all the others and those with a significant interest before publishing their standards of service. That will ensure a level of consistency in approach to the standards while still allowing organisations to develop specific standards for the type of service that they provide.
The Justice Committee also agreed at stage 2 to a Government amendment that placed a duty on the named organisations to publish a report assessing how their standards have been met, setting out how they intend to continue to meet them and highlighting any modification that might have been made to the standards during the reporting period or which they propose to make in the following year. That reporting will ensure that the criminal justice organisations not only reflect on how they have met the standards during the period covered in the report but think ahead about how they intend to meet the standards in future.
Amendments 4, 5 and 6, in the name of Elaine Murray, are very similar to elements of the member’s alternative proposal at stage 2 for a reporting mechanism and, although I appreciate the intention behind them, I consider them to be unnecessary. With regard to amendment 4, I find it difficult to imagine how the named organisations could prepare reports on how they have met their standards of service in relation to victims and witnesses without taking into consideration the views of victims and witnesses who have come into contact with the organisation. That does not need to be provided for in legislation.
Amendment 5 seeks to require Scottish ministers to consult the named persons in section 2(2) before adding to the list of information to be covered in reports on standards of service. Although it is clearly sensible to discuss any such changes with those who will be affected by any regulations, I am not persuaded that a statutory duty to consult is necessary. Such consultation would take place as a matter of course. Furthermore, the drafting of the amendment is such that the Scottish ministers would be required to consult themselves as they, too, are among the persons named in section 2(2).
Amendment 6 seeks to provide that the persons named in section 2 can review their standards of service to meet the needs of victims and witnesses following a report and to oblige them to publish any revised standards. That is simply unnecessary. The organisations in question are free to revise their standards at any time under section 2, as section 7(2) of the Interpretation and Legislative Reform (Scotland) Act 2010 provides that
“A duty imposed by an Act of the Scottish Parliament ... may be performed from time to time.”
Indeed, sections 2A(3)(c) and (d) of the bill specifically require the organisations in question to list any modifications made to their standards during the reporting year and any modification that they propose to make in the following year. In any event, I expect those organisations to review their standards regularly to ensure that they remain fit for purpose. In addition, the named organisations are required to publish their standards of service under section 2(1) and the same would apply to any modifications made to the standards.
No explicit provision is necessary to achieve those aims. As they are already provided for, I invite Elaine Murray to withdraw amendment 4 and not to move amendments 5 and 6.
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 46, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 disagreed to.
Amendment 5 moved—[Elaine Murray].
The question is, that amendment 5 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 5 disagreed to.
Amendment 6 moved—[Elaine Murray].
The question is, that amendment 6 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 6 disagreed to.
After section 2A
Amendment 7 moved—[Elaine Murray].
The question is, that amendment 7 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 7 disagreed to.
Group 4 is on the provision of information and support for victims and witnesses. Amendment 28, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, is grouped with amendments 21 and 24.
When scrutinising the bill, the Justice Committee heard that communication between justice organisations is not as good as it could be.
During stage 2, I lodged a similar amendment and the cabinet secretary agreed that there is room for improvement in how justice organisations work together. The committee heard from the Scottish Police Federation that
“all partners in the criminal justice system would accept that we have been poor at keeping victims and witnesses informed as to the progress of cases in which they are involved.”—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 30 April 2013; c 2708-09.]
Victims said that correspondence is often complex and difficult to understand, particularly given that they might already be confused and distressed in the aftermath of a crime. Worryingly, and astonishingly, David McKenna of Victim Support Scotland told the committee that victims have to tell their story “around 16 times” to various agencies, which clearly should not be necessary and can only add to victims’ distress.
Amendment 28 seeks to tackle this problem for the first time in legislation, through a requirement that the Lord Advocate, Police Scotland and the Scottish Court Service work together on the provision of information to victims. Crucially, it would require all victims and witnesses to be offered a single point of contact to help them through the justice process. The amendment would provide for properly trained individuals to give much-needed support to victims, who are currently not treated with compassion or given the time that they deserve in all cases. To provide someone who can answer questions and offer support in what can be a very daunting process for witnesses does not seem to me to be a particularly arduous requirement—it should be a bare minimum.
If the cabinet secretary is really serious that things should be made easier for victims, amendment 28 is necessary. Justice organisations might be considering or discussing how they can work together, but legislating to require them to do so will certainly focus their minds and make sure that it is a priority.
Furthermore, despite the cabinet secretary having talked consistently about improvements for victims over many years now, little has been achieved. The bill provides us with the opportunity to make sure that the criminal justice system takes meaningful steps to co-ordinate how information is provided to victims now.
On the single point of contact, the cabinet secretary told the committee at stage 2 that the Scottish Government is working
“on an online information hub, to provide easier access for victims and witnesses to case-specific information”.—[Official Report, Justice Committee, 13 November 2013; c 3603.]
However, as yet no details of that online hub are available. Furthermore, the fact that it is an online hub means that it already excludes a large chunk of individuals who do not have access to or knowledge of the internet and it puts the onus on victims to find out information.
Amendments 21 and 24, in the name of Graeme Pearson, appear to be sensible measures, which would similarly improve the provision of information to victims. I believe that they complement amendment 28.
I move amendment 28.
I acknowledge and support amendment 28, in the name of Margaret Mitchell.
Throughout the evidence that we heard in the Justice Committee, it became apparent that there were two worlds out there. One of those was the world of victims, who came to speak to the committee in a deeply moving fashion about how they perceived the services that were provided to them as they made their journey through the justice system. I do not think there will be a member here in the chamber who has not spoken to a witness or victim who has echoed the opinions that were given during the evidence that we heard in the committee. That situation demands that we offer a response. Amendment 28 would push services in that direction by requiring the co-ordination of support and the provision of a single point of contact.
The Labour Party had at one stage suggested that a commissioner would be one way to deliver on that, but it soon became apparent that there was no appetite for such a post. However, having a single point of contact or a case companion—whatever nomenclature one would want to use—would be a significant improvement on current arrangements.
14:45
Victims indicated to us that they felt like a parcel being passed through the system. Without taking up too much time in this debate, I will tell members about a lady who travelled from the north-east of Scotland to meet me yesterday, because she knew of this debate. She gave me a letter that she had sent to the authorities. It said:
“I was disappointed with the response as it did not address the issues I raised in my letter ... The vagaries of the criminal justice system are unbelievably difficult to understand for victims whose loved one has died as a result of a criminal act ... I also found it particularly galling to read about the prisoner’s rehabilitation and the support available to her”.
She wanted the needs of victims to be addressed.
Amendment 28 goes a long way towards dealing with those issues.
Amendment 21 would ensure that those who receive the information in respect of a release have intimated that they want that information passed to them, and that they receive that intimation in a reasonable form. Often, they receive an official letter that is written in language that is difficult to understand.
Amendment 24 concerns guidance and provision of information to victims in court proceedings in solemn cases. Victims and witnesses are still going to our courts and being led into a situation with no guidance or support. That leads to them not understanding what is happening and, often, confronting the very accused who they are there to deal with.
I commend the amendments.
Members will note that we have passed the agreed time limit for the debate on this group. I am exercising my power under rule 9.8.4A to allow the debate on the group to continue beyond the limit, in order to avoid the debate being unreasonably curtailed.
As with a similar amendment lodged by Margaret Mitchell at stage 2, I welcome the underlying principles behind amendment 28. I think that members would agree that encouraging justice organisations to work more closely together to improve the experience of victims and witnesses is a laudable aim. However, I can only reiterate that I do not consider that that requires primary legislation. For the benefit of those who did not follow proceedings at stage 2, I note again that we are already participating in discussions between all justice organisations to explore how they can work more effectively together and deliver a more joined-up experience for victims. I would see the improvement of communications as being part of that wider work and, in particular, I would expect it to be something that is considered when justice organisations are developing their standards of service under section 2, during which process they will be required to consult each other and relevant stakeholders.
In relation to the proposal for a single point of contact, I am still of the view that that does not require a statutory basis. We are currently considering the feasibility of establishing an online information hub to provide easier access for victims and witnesses to case-specific information. Although the establishment of such a system will not happen overnight, given the complexities of sharing potentially sensitive information between various organisations, I think that it will bring great benefits. In the meantime, victims and witnesses will have new rights to access certain information directly from the Crown Office, Police Scotland and the Scottish Court Service, under section 3.
Although amendment 21, in the name of Graeme Pearson, is clearly well intentioned, I fear that it could cause significant practical issues. In certain criminal cases, victims have the right, under section 16 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003, to receive information about the release of an offender, and other relevant details. In practice, that is provided by the Scottish Prison Service through the victim notification scheme.
Section 23 of the bill removes a list of prescribed offences in relation to the VNS so that victims of all offences will potentially be eligible. Further, I have already expressed my intention to lower the sentence threshold for the VNS. Those changes are likely to increase the numbers of victims who are registered with the VNS, and the administrative burden on the SPS. Although a phone call might be viewed as a reasonable method of communication, it would be a significant burden on any organisation if a high volume of correspondence suddenly had to be dealt with by phone or, potentially, through face-to-face meetings, if requested. Moreover, the obligation to seek the views of all victims registered with the VNS before communicating with them would have significant resource implications for the SPS in delivering the scheme. I believe that a more appropriate way of improving communication with victims is not through an impractical statutory obligation but through better training and guidance for those involved.
Amendment 24, also in the name of Graeme Pearson, is completely unnecessary. The bill already establishes in statute essential rights and obligations that will ensure that victims and witnesses have access to important information about criminal proceedings, including in relation to the most serious cases. I therefore cannot see what is to be gained from the Scottish ministers issuing guidance on the matter to the Scottish Court Service specifically in relation to solemn proceedings.
Furthermore, in the unlikely event that any guidance is necessary, no specific provision is required. Under section 69 of the Judiciary and Courts (Scotland) Act 2008, the Scottish ministers can already issue guidance to the Scottish Court Service to which it must have regard in carrying out its functions. Amendment 24 therefore replicates a provision that is already laid out in statute. Although I cannot support amendment 24, I restate the commitment that I made to Graeme Pearson at stage 2. The Scottish Government will continue to work with our justice partners in this area to ensure that any information that is provided to victims is clear and easy to understand.
Although I support the broad principles behind amendment 28, I consider it unnecessary and invite Margaret Mitchell to withdraw it. I also urge Graeme Pearson not to move amendments 21 and 24.
I call Margaret Mitchell to press or withdraw amendment 28. I would be grateful if you could be brief.
It seems that the much-vaunted but, to date, phantom online hub that the cabinet secretary keeps telling us about is no further forward. The fact of the matter is that the guidance to which he refers is not working. Without primary legislation, victims will have to continue to give their story 16 times over, which is, frankly, unacceptable. The amendment would require it to be a priority that a single point of contact be established to avoid that happening. On that basis, I press amendment 28.
The question is, that amendment 28 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 46, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 28 disagreed to.
Section 2C—Restorative justice
We move to group 5, on restorative justice. Amendment 8, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is the only amendment in the group. I call the cabinet secretary to speak to and move the amendment.
At stage 2, the Justice Committee accepted an amendment on restorative justice that was lodged by Alison McInnes. That amendment, which is now section 2C, places a duty on the Scottish ministers to make provision, by regulations, for the referral of victims and offenders or alleged offenders to restorative justice processes.
In principle, I welcome that. I appreciate why Alison McInnes lodged the amendment and agree that more consideration should be given to the potential benefits of restorative justice to victims. We already know that it can be useful in relation to youth justice, in particular.
However, I have some concerns that section 2C, as it stands, could be interpreted as giving individuals a statutory right to access such services, which would be premature. Detailed consideration would need to be given to the nature and effectiveness of the services that were to be offered and to the potential cost, which cannot be ignored in the current financial situation.
I thank the cabinet secretary for meeting me to explore the best way forward on the issue. Can he reassure me that the first set of guidance that he will produce, perhaps relating to youth justice, will be issued in the near future? Will he commit to establishing a short-life working group comprised of relevant stakeholders to help him to develop the guidance?
I am happy to work with all stakeholders and to meet the member to discuss the matter further.
We are keen to build on what we already know—that is why Alison McInnes moved her amendment—which is that restorative justice services can have outstanding success at youth level. We must ensure that we build on that and have a solid base. Rather than commit to a short-life working group, I am happy to meet her. I am sure that all the other stakeholders would equally commit to that.
Given the voluntary and case-specific nature of any restorative justice services, there are compelling reasons for adopting a more flexible approach than would be possible through a statutory scheme. In particular, it would be difficult to establish definitive circumstances in which referral would be appropriate, reflecting the very personal and specific circumstances of each case and giving due consideration to issues such as the potential risk to and safety of victims. Similar points were raised with me by victim support groups such as Victim Support Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid, which agree that further consideration and a more flexible victim-focused approach is required.
My amendment 8, which is supported by both Victim Support Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid, seeks to allow for a more measured approach to be taken. It would replace the duty in section 2C to make regulations with an ability for the Scottish ministers to issue guidance relating to the referral of individuals to and the provision of restorative justice services. That would allow clear guidelines to be established, taking into consideration any obligations in the recent European Union directive on victims’ rights while retaining more flexibility than would be possible if such detail were set out by statutory instrument. A duty may also be placed on persons who will be specified by order to have regard to the guidance. The order-making power could be used to place such a duty on those persons referring individuals to or providing restorative justice services.
If the bill is passed, I intend to issue guidance with a particular focus on the appropriate use of that measure and on the safeguards that would be in place to ensure that victims are protected if they choose to participate in any available restorative justice services—an issue that Alison McInnes rightly highlighted at stage 2. However, before issuing guidance, we will need to discuss what specific matters should be covered with those who have detailed knowledge and experience. I have signalled to Sacro, Victim Support Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid and others that we will be seeking their input, and I look forward to constructive discussions on the matter next year.
I assure Alison McInnes that amendment 8 is not intended to negate or weaken section 2C; rather, it is intended to adapt it into a more practical form. I am happy to continue discussions with her at a later date.
I move amendment 8.
I welcome the fact that the cabinet secretary has sought to respect the will of the committee and that he has chosen to revise rather than remove the provisions referring to restorative justice. I know that organisations such as Sacro are appreciative of its retention.
Amendment 8, as the cabinet secretary says, softens the provisions significantly. I understand that the cabinet secretary believes that the changes will give the system greater flexibility. I came to the chamber seeking reassurances that, should Parliament agree to amendment 8, the cabinet secretary will proceed to establish guidance. I have heard those assurances. I welcome that and the opportunity to meet him again in due course.
I am happy to accept Alison McInnes’s points and to meet her to discuss the matter. I think that we share a common view that restorative justice has worked and does good service, but we must ensure that it works for all because there are some for whom it would be counterproductive.
Amendment 8 agreed to.
Section 3—Disclosure of information about criminal proceedings
Group 6 is minor and technical amendments. Amendment 9, in the name of the cabinet secretary, is grouped with amendments 10 to 11, 13 to 16 and 20.
Section 3 gives victims and witnesses the right to access certain information about their case from various bodies and reflects the requirements of article 6 of the EU victims’ rights directive. Following the introduction of the bill, however, the Office of the Advocate General for Scotland raised concerns that the obligation in section 3 could, in rare cases, lead to disclosure of confidential information supplied by the United Kingdom Government.
An exception to the duty to provide information in section 3 already exists, whereby information does not have to be disclosed if the qualifying person considers that that disclosure would be inappropriate. I consider the level of discretion that the wording of that exemption provides to be essential as it allows the police, the Crown Office and the Scottish Court Service to exercise their professional judgment in response to the individual circumstances of the case. However, I also recognise that that gives the qualifying person discretion about whether to disclose confidential information supplied by the UK Government as there is no obligation to withhold that confidential information.
My amendment 9 therefore obliges qualifying persons to refuse a request relating to a decision not to investigate, a decision to end an investigation or a decision not to prosecute the alleged offender in so far as complying with the request would involve the disclosure of information supplied by the UK Government or a minister of the Crown and held in confidence. It is intended to ensure that, for example, the bodies that are named in section 3(5) of the bill are obliged not to disclose information received from the UK Government in relation to national security and held in confidence.
15:00
I do not expect the exception to be widely applicable, but I hope that members will agree that we should do all that we can to avoid inadvertently revealing confidential information that could prejudice serious investigations.
Amendments 10, 13 and 14 are minor technical amendments to correct a reference to certain offences in the Sexual Offences Act 2003.
Amendments 11 and 15 are also minor technical amendments and substitute references to
“an offence consisting of domestic abuse”
in sections 5(5)(d) and 6(a) respectively with
“an offence the commission of which involves domestic abuse”.
The purpose of those amendments is simply to make it clear that, although domestic abuse is not, in itself, a statutory offence, any offence that contains an element of domestic abuse is covered by the provisions in sections 5 and 6 of the bill.
Amendment 16 relates to the process for submitting vulnerable witness notices to the court containing details of specific measures that are required for vulnerable witnesses. The Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service has been examining ways of streamlining the process to increase efficiency and lower costs. Amendment 16 will assist in that process. Where a vulnerable witness notice specifies only standard special measures, the amendment will remove the requirement for a summary of the witness’s views and, where the victim is a child, those of the witness’s parent in relation to the special measures to be contained in, or attached to, the notice.
The party submitting the vulnerable witness notice will still be required to take account of the witness’s views, but as the court has no discretion as to whether to authorise any standard special measures requested—it must grant them—it follows that there is little point in providing it with a summary of views expressed. In all other cases in which the court has discretion to authorise the use of special measures, the requirement for it to be informed of any views expressed by the witness or the witness’s parents will remain.
Amendment 20 is a minor drafting amendment to section 21 of the bill to insert the word “or” to make it clear that the paragraphs in proposed new section 253B(4) of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 are intended as alternatives.
I move amendment 9.
Amendment 9 agreed to.
Section 5—Certain offences: victim’s right to specify gender of interviewer
Amendments 10 and 11 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
Section 5A—Certain medical examinations: gender of medical examiner
Amendment 13 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
After section 5A
Group 7 is on evidence in relation to sexual offences: disclosure of information. Amendment 12, in the name of Graeme Pearson, is grouped with amendments 29, 30 and 31.
The group of amendments arises from significant concerns that were expressed by Rape Crisis Scotland, Scottish Women’s Aid, domestic abuse groups and other associated women’s groups about the application of existing legislation that was designed to ensure that sensitive personal information is disclosed as part of court procedures only in relevant cases, and that it is handled sensitively. The experience of victims as recorded in evidence to the Justice Committee and the lobbying from those groups indicate that the legislation is not being applied effectively.
Subsection (1) of the new section that amendment 12 would insert says that
“The Lord Advocate must prepare and publish guidance on the circumstances in which sensitive personal information”
about a victim can be used in the public court process. The other subsections in the proposed new section refer to the means by which such guidance could be prepared, produced and disseminated.
In the event that amendment 12 fails, I will support Margaret Mitchell’s amendment 29, which takes a different approach to a similar problem. It seeks the provision of legal advice to victims so that necessary processes can be put in place to protect the interests of the victim in the system. Margaret Mitchell’s accompanying amendments set out the means by which that could be delivered, and I have no comment to offer on them.
I move amendment 12.
Amendments 29, 30 and 31 seek to tackle the long-standing and vexing problem of use of sexual history and character evidence in sexual offence trials.
An evaluation that was commissioned by the Scottish Government and published in 2007 found that, far from tightening up use of sexual history and character evidence, the legislation that the Government introduced in 2002 had led to an increase in use of such evidence. The key findings of the research make for concerning reading: 72 per cent of trials involved an application to introduce sexual history or character evidence, and only 7 per cent of those applications were refused. Despite the cabinet secretary’s assurance that the Crown Office has comprehensive guidance in place to ensure that victims are given a full explanation of exactly why any sensitive information is sought, the fact of the matter is that, in practice, that guidance is not effective and is failing to protect complainers.
Rape Crisis Scotland’s on-going research on the information that is sought makes compelling reading, too. Nearly 60 per cent of those who have responded said that they felt that they had had no choice but to provide sensitive information, and 35 per cent said that no one had explained to them why the information was being looked at. Less than 15 per cent said that they were clear about why the information had been requested. The concerns about inappropriate use of such evidence, which is designed to play to a jury’s prejudices, are well documented.
Amendments 29, 30 and 31 reflect some of the points that were raised at stage 2. Amendment 29 would allow independent legal advice to be offered to victims of sexual offences as soon as the police, the Crown or the defence sought to access health or other sensitive records. More often than not, that is when the complainer is at their most vulnerable, which is why independent legal representation at that point is so important, especially as complainers and victims feel that they have no choice but to consent.
Therefore, it is the intention that such legal advice will be offered to victims and that some form of financial support will be available for that. Amendment 29 leaves it open for the Scottish Government to set up a dedicated fund, if appropriate. It would, of course, be open for legal aid to be extended to include provision of such independent legal advice, although further amendments would be required to allow that to happen.
Importantly, amendment 30 would allow the Scottish Government to run a pilot to assess how provision of independent legal advice would work in practice and to collect much-needed data. Rape Crisis Scotland has been in touch with Scotland’s largest law centre, the Legal Services Agency, which tackles the unmet legal needs of disadvantaged people. One of the areas in which the LSA undertakes work is in protecting the rights of refugee and migrant women and children, which it does through its women and young persons department. The proposed pilot would be affiliated to that department and would allocate one specialist solicitor one day a week for six months to provide initial advice regarding access to medical and other sensitive records. The advice could be provided at the premises of the LSA or of Rape Crisis.
During the pilot phase, the specialist solicitor would undertake collation of case outcomes, identify the costs of providing legal support, evaluate the pilot from the point of view of its clients and external parties, including the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service—
I need to ask you to wind up, because you have been speaking for five minutes.
Amendment 31 would require that a report be published, and the arrangements would satisfy the requirements for that.
I accept that the use of independent legal advice would be uncharted territory, which is why I have provided for a pilot. By limiting the pilot to the most serious sexual offences—to rape—and by providing that it would apply to only one High Court location, we would incur minimal costs. I hope that the Scottish Government will support that commonsense proposal.
I am anxious to fit in more members, so I ask the next three members to keep their comments brief.
I support Graeme Pearson’s amendment 12 and Margaret Mitchell’s amendments. As her amendments may prove to be more controversial, I will speak briefly to them. The amendments might appear to be unusual, but they deal with unusual circumstances.
What complainer or victim, apart from a rape victim, has all her or his personal and medical details revealed in court, as happens in such cases? In the past few days, Rape Crisis Scotland has produced a report that details the information that is routinely and regularly given in Scottish courts in rape cases. For example, one woman said:
“my mental health was all I felt was talked about, not being raped”.
Someone else said that they were put off having therapy and counselling because they knew that that would be used against them in court. Others might not come forward to complain of what has happened to them because they know what might happen in court.
The matter is problematic in relation to the right to privacy, but be that as it may, women have no real choice in such situations. Whatever the guidelines say, such information can routinely be used in court. The least that we can do to protect such women and their rights is to ensure that they have independent legal advice and representation, so that their case can be put in such situations.
On Graeme Pearson’s amendment 12, I have difficulty in considering that any guidance that the Lord Advocate produced could be anything other than general. I am also concerned about whether the amendment would place too much emphasis on the Lord Advocate alone and would not take account of the accused’s interests in the process. Would the amendment provide the right balance? I think not.
I have some sympathy with Margaret Mitchell’s amendments, particularly in relation to sexual history applications under sections 274 and 275 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995. A common occurrence is that a complainer or victim is confused and takes the view that she should have her lawyer, because she does not understand that the Crown represents the public interest and not her.
A pilot is entirely the wrong approach and we should not put a pilot in legislation. I have some sympathy with Margaret Mitchell and I think that the Government would be wise to update the research and information on sexual history applications, but the amendments are not the right way forward.
I support all the amendments in the group. It is important that those who are asked to provide sensitive information, whether it is health, social work or education records, should have the opportunity to have legal advice and representation before doing so. There is no doubt that being required to reveal such information can leave victims feeling exposed and further violated, and feeling that their right to confidentiality has been denied. Some can feel further victimised. I am also concerned that such evidence can prove to be prejudicial in some cases.
During the passage of the bill, I have met many victims, whose stories haunt me. One woman told me that giving evidence was a harrowing and psychologically damaging experience. She was so distressed that the judge halted the court proceedings a number of times. No one had explained to her the amount of detail that she would have to give about the appalling acts of sexual violence against her. She was particularly disturbed that she had not been told that her medical records, which detailed her injuries, would be read out in full to the court and the jury.
We must strive to ensure that such information is revealed only when it is appropriate. I would therefore welcome additional safeguards and the increased protection for victims of sexual offences that the amendments would provide.
We all accept that there is an issue, and there is a great deal of sympathy. Work is on-going. However, I am not persuaded that putting a pilot in primary legislation is the best approach, as Rod Campbell said.
I agree that the Crown Office and Procurator Fiscal Service should take an appropriate and consistent approach in seeking access to such information, but amendment 12, in Graeme Pearson’s name, is unnecessary.
15:15
The Lord Advocate has already issued guidance—post publication of the statistics that Margaret Mitchell mentioned—on seeking sensitive information in such cases, which is set out in the publicly available document, “Policy on obtaining and disclosing sensitive personal records in the investigation and prosecution of sexual crime cases”.
Given the range of matters on which the Lord Advocate issues guidance, I would be reluctant to impose a statutory duty in relation to one particular topic, especially one for which guidance already exists. If specific matters are felt to be missing from existing guidance, I know that the Crown Office would be happy to receive and consider any feedback.
Amendment 12 is also unnecessary in relation to disclosure of information about the victim. Disclosure of information that is held by a prosecutor is already provided for in part 6 of the Criminal Justice and Licensing (Scotland) Act 2010, and those statutory provisions will take precedence.
Amendments 29, 30 and 31, in the name of Margaret Mitchell, would result—as I indicated at stage 2—in a major innovation in the law. There are currently no rights for victims to have independent legal representation in criminal proceedings; as Rod Campbell mentioned, the Crown acts not as a prosecutor but in the public interest.
We are being invited to make a major change in a fashion that has not been fully thought through, and which has not been properly explored. The case for such a change has not yet been made. That does not mean that it cannot be, but it certainly has not been to date.
Rape Crisis Scotland acknowledges that since publication of the Crown Office guidance that I mentioned, no additional data have been collected on use of medical histories and other sensitive information. The Crown Office has offered to work with Rape Crisis Scotland in that regard.
In the meantime, it would be irresponsible were we to act despite having no data. In addition, it is entirely unclear how the provisions would operate in practice. Margaret Mitchell’s amendments would enable victims to appoint a legal representative wherever health or other sensitive information was sought. However, that covers a very broad range of information, much of which is not currently subject to any restrictions on its being introduced as evidence. The amendments would not create an application process for the admission of health or other sensitive information, so it is unclear how the process of appointing a legal representative for the victim would commence.
The amendments do not provide for the admissibility of the evidence to be debated at an oral hearing, so it is unclear how submissions on the evidence would be made. If additional hearings were to be arranged, further amendment of the legislation would be required. That is to say nothing of the attendant delays to the court process, which would have an impact on victims and witnesses, and the significant cost that would be involved in arranging those hearings.
The amendments do not provide any guidance for the court or the victim about when health or other sensitive information would be admissible. For example, there is no requirement that the court must carry out a balancing exercise between the interests of the victim and the proper administration of justice.
It is clear that Margaret Mitchell recognises the scale of the innovation that her amendments propose, given the provisions for carrying out a pilot. However, without a great deal more clarity on how the amendments would work in practice, I fail to see the benefit of them.
Moreover, the provisions for terminating a pilot are defectively drafted, with no provision having been made for reversing commencement; regardless of the outcome of the pilot, the provisions would remain in force.
If information is being sought, the reasons should be clearly explained to the victims, but that should be dealt with practically rather than requiring advice from a solicitor. As I have mentioned, the Crown Office has in place comprehensive guidance to ensure that victims are given a full explanation of exactly why any sensitive information is being asked for.
Furthermore, in the event that legal advice is required, current legal aid legislation already makes that available to victims and witnesses through the advice and assistance scheme, subject to the usual statutory test. On the subject of legal aid, I note that Margaret Mitchell’s amendment 29 proposes that an entirely new fund be established to pay for advice to or representation for alleged victims. Given the complexities that would be involved in setting up a new fund—not to mention the cost, in the current financial situation—I am not convinced that that would be a particularly sensible approach.
I and my officials have already met Rape Crisis Scotland to discuss its concerns, and we recently arranged a meeting between Rape Crisis and the Scottish Legal Aid Board to explore the additional support that might be available under current legal arrangements, beyond what is already available through the advice and assistance scheme. Similarly, colleagues in the Crown Office have discussed those matters in detail and have indicated a willingness to assist Rape Crisis in exploring how such evidence is used.
In summary, I do not believe that a pilot’s being included in the text of primary legislation is the best way to go. There are on-going discussions between Rape Crisis Scotland and the Scottish Legal Aid Board, and I am happy to commit to their working together constructively.
Equally, I am more than happy to engage further with Rape Crisis Scotland regarding other matters that it has raised with me and other members. However, if we are to have a pilot, we should work out the practical details and have the pilot before we embark on primary legislation. I have a great deal of sympathy with where members are coming from, but we have to ensure that we get the approach right; we do not want to make things worse for vulnerable victims. I therefore invite Graeme Pearson to seek to withdraw amendment 12, and I ask Margaret Mitchell not to move amendments 29 to 31.
I call Graeme Pearson to wind up and to indicate whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 12. I would be grateful if you could be as brief as possible, Mr Pearson.
I take the hint, Presiding Officer.
I am sorry to disappoint the cabinet secretary, but I will not seek agreement to withdraw amendment 12. In summation, all the words that he has just given us mean no change for women who go through our courts. The bill is largely driven by European legislation, which demands different approaches in member countries. Hence we have the proposals in the bill, but the issue has not been looked at from the point of view of victims. I hope that members will consider the issue, which has been at the centre of a problem in our courts for 10 years. We need to move now.
The question is, that amendment 12 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 12 disagreed to.
Amendment 29 moved—[Margaret Mitchell].
The question is, that amendment 29 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 29 disagreed to.
Amendment 30 moved—[Margaret Mitchell].
The question is, that amendment 30 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 30 disagreed to.
Amendment 31 moved—[Margaret Mitchell].
The question is, that amendment 31 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 49, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 31 disagreed to.
Section 6—Vulnerable witnesses: main definitions
Amendments 14 to 16, in the name of the cabinet secretary, have already been debated.
Amendments 14 to 16 moved—[Kenny MacAskill].
Does any member object to a single question being put on amendments 14 to 16?
Members indicated disagreement.
Amendments 14 and 15 agreed to.
Section 7—Child and deemed vulnerable witnesses
Amendment 16 agreed to.
Section 19—Victim statements
As we are nearing the agreed time limit, I am prepared to exercise my power under rule 9.8.4A(a) to allow those with the right to speak in the next group to do so.
We now move to group 8, on victim statements and the right to make statements other than written statements. Amendment 17 is the only amendment in the group.
The current arrangements for making a victim’s feelings known to a hearing is that they can supply a written statement, or they can be interviewed and can give an oral statement to a third party, who will then pass on that information for consideration. Amendment 17 seeks to offer a victim or a nominated person the right to make an oral representation—to be heard first hand. There is no doubt that victims who offered evidence to the committee and elsewhere have indicated that they wish to be able to make an oral representation on behalf of themselves and their family.
I see no reason why the amendment cannot be agreed to. It would be good to allow victims to be heard and the amendment would have an impact on the processes that are being considered. I hope that members will feel able to support it.
I move amendment 17.
As I have said before, victims of crime should clearly have the opportunity to communicate to the court the physical, emotional and economic impact of crime. That is why I introduced the victim statement scheme, which allows victims to give a written statement describing how the offence has affected them. However, as I explained to the Justice Committee last month, I have heard first hand from victims of crime who have struggled to fully convey in writing the impact that a crime has had on them, and who have asked why they cannot submit statements in other formats, such as a pre-recorded video.
That is why at stage 2 I lodged an amendment introducing an order-making power into section 14 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003, to allow Scottish ministers to specify the format in which victim statements can be made. The Justice Committee agreed to that amendment. Crucially, that will allow alternative formats to be piloted for specific periods of time and in specific areas. Taking a power to pilot new formats will allow for a full evaluation of any new approach to be carried out, taking into consideration the views of victims, the courts, the Crown and the defence. If successful, any new statement formats could then be extended more widely.
In making that amendment at stage 2, my intention was to enable Scottish ministers and criminal justice organisations to take a balanced and considered approach to extending the formats in which victim statements can be delivered, while allowing for the development of new formats in response to advances in technology.
Amendment 17, in the name of Graeme Pearson, is similar to an amendment that he lodged at stage 2. As I said then, I have concerns regarding the extent of the amendment, in that victims would be able to read their victim statement live in court. I am still doubtful about how well that would work in practice and of the benefits of such a measure. I also have concerns about the potential impact on the victim. I note that England and Wales have recently introduced a new victims code, which allows victims to read their own statements in court, but I am told that that system has not yet commenced. As I said at stage 2, I am keen to monitor the progress of that code before I give further consideration to such a measure in Scotland.
15:30
Mr Pearson also suggested an additional provision enabling the Lord President to issue guidance as to how such representations may be made. It is unclear why he proposed conferring that power on the Lord President when, under section 305 of the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995, the High Court already has the power to regulate practice and procedure in criminal proceedings. Indeed, procedures have been established by act of adjournal to regulate the submission of child witness notices. It would seem strange for the Lord President to issue guidance on something for which the High Court could produce rules and regulations.
Furthermore, the proposed power of the Lord President to issue guidance on how representations under proposed new section 19(5A)(b) might be made does not sit easily with the proposal to confer delegated power on the Scottish ministers under proposed new section 19(5A)(c) to prescribe other means of making a victim statement by order.
In light of the existing provisions in the bill that confer powers to pilot new forms of victim statement, and the specific concerns regarding any guidance on how those statements are to be made, I cannot support amendment 17.
That said, I would not want to rule out the proposal relating to oral victim statements altogether, and I reiterate the commitment that I gave Graeme Pearson at stage 2, which was that I would be happy to revisit the issue once greater consideration has been given to how such a measure would operate in practice, and once the benefits and risks to the victim have been explored in more detail. On that basis, I invite Graeme Pearson to withdraw amendment 17.
In good faith, and given the cabinet secretary’s assurances, I seek leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment 17, by agreement, withdrawn.
We move to group 9, on the rights of children to make victim statements and receive information on offender release. Amendment 32, in the name of Elaine Murray, is grouped with amendments 33, 18, 18A, and 18B.
Amendments 32 and 33 are similar to amendments that were rejected by the cabinet secretary and the committee at stage 2. I lodged them at the request of Children 1st, which has issued a briefing supporting the amendments; they are also supported by Barnardo’s, Scotland’s Commissioner for Children and Young People, Scottish Women’s Aid, YouthLink and several other organisations that were also unconvinced by the cabinet secretary’s arguments.
The amendments would give a child under the age of 12 the opportunity to make a victim statement should they wish to do so, and should they have sufficient age and maturity. If a child was not able to make a statement, one may be made on their behalf by a parent or other qualifying individual. A child who made a statement under section 19 would have to be provided with whatever support they required to be able to do so.
There is considerable support from a range of organisations for amendment 32, and I thank those organisations for circulating a separate briefing.
The justice secretary suggested that we had set the appropriate age for children making a victim statement in their own right at 12. However, criminal investigations and proceedings might involve children as young as three giving evidence in their own right as victims and witnesses—often with not nearly enough support, I am sorry to say. Surely it is contradictory to allow only children over the age of 12 to give a statement about the impact of crime on them. We could have a situation whereby a child of six gives eloquent and compelling evidence as the victim of sexual abuse that helps to convict an accused, and is then denied the opportunity to tell the sheriff or judge about the impact of that offence on them.
Previous legislation acknowledges both the importance of children making their views known when decisions are being made that affect them and their rights to do so. Examples include the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2004 and the Education (Additional Support for Learning) (Scotland) Act 2009. There is also precedent that provides for children to be supported in doing so: section 122 of the Children’s Hearings (Scotland) Act 2011 provides for advocacy for all children and young people who enter the hearings system.
My amendments also seek to define more clearly who should make a victim statement on a child’s behalf. They would ensure that, first, those who have parental rights and responsibilities would do so or, if the parent or carer was unable to do so—or if it would be inappropriate for them to do so—the qualifying person list whose purpose is to determine who would make a victim statement on behalf of an adult who lacks mental capacity would be used.
The definition in the bill of a carer updates that which first featured in the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003. However, that definition is designed for the specific purpose of distinguishing between those who provide unpaid care as family members for a person with support needs, and paid carers. To use that definition in this context would be inappropriate.
Children can be affected by horrific crimes both directly and indirectly. They deserve to be allowed to make the court aware of that in their own words and in their own way. Where they need support to do so, whatever their age, it should be provided. My amendments would enable a relatively small number of children who have been impacted—often by a terrible experience—to ensure that what they say about the impact of crime on them is heard and listened to by the justice system.
I move amendment 32.
Amendments 32 and 33, in the name of Elaine Murray, are very similar to amendments that she lodged at stage 2. I appreciate where she is coming from. Clearly, there may be very mature young people who want to make a victim statement but cannot do so. Indeed, at stage 2 I lodged amendments, which the committee supported, to lower the age at which children can give victim statements from 14 to 12.
However, we tend to take a general view on matters such as the age of consent and the voting age, and I think that a similar approach is appropriate with regard to the age at which victim statements can be made. In addition, if it is felt in the future that children under the age of 12 should be allowed to make victim statements, existing order-making powers would enable Scottish ministers to reduce the age limit accordingly. We are more than willing to give further consideration to that in due course.
I also have some concerns about the detail of amendment 33, in that it does not indicate who is to make a decision as to whether a child is of sufficient age and maturity to make a statement, and who is to provide the support mentioned in proposed new subsection 11C. Those are clearly matters of some importance, and a lack of clarity on who those provisions apply to would be confusing.
Amendment 18, in my name, proposes making a number of amendments to section 16 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003. That section established a system—known as the victim notification scheme—whereby victims can, on request, receive information about the relevant offender. Most of the changes proposed by amendment 18 are required as a consequence of amendments that will be made by section 19 of the bill, which will repeal certain parts of section 14 of the 2003 act that are, in turn, referred to in section 16. Those changes will simply ensure that the victim notification scheme will continue to operate as it does at present.
In proposing amendment 18, however, I have also taken the opportunity to seek to lower from 14 to 12 the age at which children can receive information from the victim notification scheme in their own right. At stage 2, the Justice Committee supported my amendments to make a similar change with regard to the making of victim statements. I think that it is only right that that age limit be consistent both with arrangements for making victim statements and with other legislation relating to children, primarily the Age of Legal Capacity (Scotland) Act 1991, which provides that children over the age of 12 have testamentary capacity and are able to make decisions themselves about many issues.
Amendment 18 also provides an order-making power whereby Scottish ministers may in future modify the age limits in section 16 of the 2003 act independently of the age limits in section 14 of that act.
Amendment 18A, in the name of John Finnie, seeks to amend my amendment 18 to introduce an order-making power for Scottish ministers to be able to change the persons eligible to receive information under section 16 of the 2003 act through the victim notification scheme. I appreciate the intention behind the amendment, which is to give Scottish ministers the flexibility to make any further changes if necessary in the future. In light of that, I am happy to support amendment 18A.
Amendment 18B, also in the name of John Finnie, would allow Scottish ministers to issue guidance on the support that should be available to children if they receive information under section 16 of the 2003 act. Again, I appreciate the intention behind the amendment. However, I am not persuaded that there is a need for statutory guidance in relation to such support, and it is not clear who the guidance would be aimed at. I think that a better approach would be to work with our justice partners and with victim support groups to identify what support is available currently and how to improve that if necessary.
I therefore invite Elaine Murray to withdraw amendment 32 and not to move amendment 33. I invite members to support amendments 18 and 18A, and I ask John Finnie not to move amendment 18B.
I call John Finnie to speak to amendment 18A and other amendments in the group—around two minutes, please, Mr Finnie.
I am grateful for the cabinet secretary’s support for amendment 18A. However, I have been advised of instances in which child victims of very serious offences, such as sexual and domestic abuse, have found out by accident about the release of an offender. One of the partner agencies that the cabinet secretary is working with is Children 1st, which works with children to help them recover from the traumatic experience of abuse. It knows of situations in which an offender returned to live in the same community on release and the first that the child victim knew of their release was when they literally bumped into them in the street.
Amendment 18 does not make it clear whether, if a child victim does not have the right to be notified, their parent or guardian has that right. A child who is older than 12 might not want to know or might not realise the consequences of not wishing to be notified, but in order to consider how to protect the child from encountering a released offender, the parent or guardian might wish to be notified. How does the amendment provide for such an occurrence?
Moreover, a child might not realise the importance of knowing about the release and they might find the release traumatic. It is important to provide support for a child victim so that they can address the impact of such information and process it as positively as possible. Guidance would help the justice authorities to work out what might be required in different circumstances.
My amendments 18A and 18B would allow for such eventualities. They would allow Scottish ministers, once proper consideration has been given to the effects of amendment 18, to issue appropriate guidance and to continue to finesse the operation and implementation of amendment 18.
The justice secretary has accepted that amendment 18A is within the overall aims of the bill. Amendment 18B is supported by Children 1st and I encourage everyone else to support it too.
Amendments 32 and 33 are supported by Aberlour Child Care Trust, Barnardo’s, Children 1st, Clan Childlaw centre, Professor Fiona Raitt, Includem, Janys Scott QC, LGBT Youth Scotland, the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, Parenting across Scotland, Scotland’s Commissioner for Children and Young People, Scottish Women’s Aid, Together Scottish Alliance for Children’s Rights, the WAVE Trust and YouthLink Scotland. If members do not listen to me, I ask them to please listen to them. They support amendments 32 and 33.
The question is, that amendment 32 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 73, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 32 disagreed to.
Amendment 33 moved—[Elaine Murray].
The question is, that amendment 33 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 35, Against 72, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 33 disagreed to.
Amendment 18 moved—[Kenny MacAskill].
Amendment 18A moved—[John Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 18B moved—[John Finnie.]
The question is, that amendment 18B be agreed to. Are we all agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 60, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 18B disagreed to.
Amendment 18, as amended, agreed to.
Section 20—Duty to consider making compensation order
Group 10 is on compensation orders. Amendment 19, in the name of Elaine Murray, is the only amendment in the group. I ask Elaine Murray to speak to and move amendment 19 as briefly as possible.
15:45
Amendment 19 seeks to require the court to ascertain the victim’s views prior to making a compensation order and prohibits the making of such an order when the victim has notified the court that they do not wish to receive compensation from the offender. Victims of sexual offences, for example, might find payment in compensation for the offence perpetrated against them abhorrent. When I lodged a similar amendment at stage 2, the cabinet secretary felt that it might imply that all victims would have to be consulted even if a compensation order was not being considered. In light of that comment, I have reworded that amendment.
MSPs will have received a briefing from Scottish Women’s Aid and Rape Crisis yesterday evening supporting this amendment and stating their belief that, as the bill stands, section 20 has the potential to cause further harm to victims and that compensation orders are not a helpful disposal in domestic and sexual abuse cases. Neither the bill nor the Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1995 contains any provision for the victim’s views to be the deciding factor in whether a court makes or does not make a compensation order against the offender. If the intention is that compensation orders should be considered in every case, the victim must have the right to have their views heard.
An offender in a domestic or sexual abuse case could use such an order to continue to exert a degree of control over the victim by manipulating or delaying the payment. In many cases, the victim might want no contact with her abuser and certainly will not want money from him. Moreover, a compensation order might be made as an alternative to another disposal, which again might cause the victim great distress.
I move amendment 19.
I call Sandra White for a brief contribution.
I will be very brief, Presiding Officer. I support amendment 19 and concur with everything that Elaine Murray has said. Indeed, women who have suffered sexual abuse have told us that the idea of getting a compensation order is abhorrent to them.
I call Margaret Mitchell. Briefly, please.
Very briefly, the Scottish Conservatives are minded to support amendment 19. Seeking the victim’s views before a compensation order is made seems an eminently sensible and appropriate measure.
As I explained at stage 2, courts may currently consider imposing a compensation order on an offender but are under no obligation to do so. Section 20 is intended to ensure that the court considers imposing compensation orders in relevant cases but it does not remove its discretion to decide whether such a move is appropriate. In making such a decision, the court considers all the circumstances of the case and would rightly take into account any views expressed by the victim.
At stages 1 and 2, the Justice Committee discussed concerns that had been raised by Rape Crisis Scotland and Scottish Women’s Aid about compensation orders being imposed in domestic abuse or sexual assault cases in which, as Sandra White has suggested, victims do not wish such an order to be made. As I have said before by way of reassurance, the bill will do nothing to preclude the court from using its discretion and will impose compensation orders only where the court considers it appropriate to do so.
Amendment 19, in the name of Elaine Murray, is similar to an amendment that she lodged at stage 2. In light of comments that were made about the practicality of the previous amendment and the potential burden on the court, I welcome the changes that she has made to narrow the circumstances in which views must be sought to those situations in which the court actually intends to impose a compensation order.
As I said at stage 2, I have some doubts about whether the amendment is absolutely necessary. The court already considers all the circumstances in making a compensation order. I understand that it is very rare for compensation orders to be awarded in relation to sexual offence or domestic abuse cases, and it is those cases that are at the heart of the concerns raised by Rape Crisis and Scottish Women’s Aid.
That said, I appreciate the concerns that have been raised and, given the changes that have been made to the proposal since stage 2, I am happy to support Elaine Murray’s amendment. It is clear that no one wants to cause further distress to victims and, in the small number of cases in which compensation is not wanted, the proposal will ensure that it is not granted.
We will continue to work with the Crown Office and the Judicial Office for Scotland to ensure that the provision works well in practice and to ensure that no delays are caused in the majority of cases in which victims are happy to receive compensation.
I therefore encourage members to support amendment 19.
I thank the cabinet secretary for accepting the amendment and other members for their support.
Amendment 19 agreed to.
Section 21—Restitution order
Group 11 is on restitution orders: application of the fund. Amendment 34, in the name of Alison McInnes, is grouped with amendment 35.
Amendments 34 and 35 would extend restitution orders and the associated fund to fire and ambulance service personnel. It would mean that an assault on those workers—not only on the police—could lead to the offender making a payment to the fund and would, in turn, enable those employees to access the specialist support services that it will provide.
Attacks on emergency services personnel are not limited to attacks on the police. During stage 2, all parties, including the cabinet secretary, were sympathetic to the argument that there ought not to be a distinction, but concerns were expressed that the proposal could prove to be impracticable—that it could be too difficult to identify suitable beneficiaries or that the proposal could be too expensive to administer. However, even the cabinet secretary acknowledged during stage 2 that benevolent funds exist for the distinct groups of emergency workers to whom I wish to extend restitution orders—the Fire Fighters Charity and the Ambulance Services Benevolent Fund. It would be for the administrator of the new fund to decide whether they would be appropriate beneficiaries, and the Scottish ministers would have the power to make further provision for the administration of the restitution fund. Therefore, I maintain that it would be within its gift to ensure that the operator divides and distributes the money in a manner that supports victims of the relevant offence for which it was collected, as would be appropriate in the circumstances.
The Law Society of Scotland supports extending restitution orders to a broader group of workers, and it has been suggested to me that, if the number of assaults under section 1(1) of the Emergency Workers (Scotland) Act 2005 is comparatively low, as the cabinet secretary argued at stage 2, the additional administration costs would be minimal and more readily absorbed into the resources that are necessary for the restitution fund in general.
I move amendment 34.
There seems to be no good reason why restitution orders should not apply to other emergency workers, and not just the police alone. Given Alison McInnes’s comments, I and the Conservatives are minded to support the amendments in her name.
As I have said before, I am sympathetic to the idea of extending restitution orders to workers other than the police, provided that the system would actually work. I acknowledge that Alison McInnes has attempted to extend the scope of restitution orders in such a way as to ensure that, for each emergency worker who is the victim of an assault, there could be appropriate beneficiaries who could receive payment from the restitution fund.
The amendments would certainly make the operation of the restitution fund more complex. Payments to the fund would require to be ring fenced according to the type of offence for which the restitution order was imposed. It would be inappropriate to use moneys that were recovered in respect of an assault on one type of emergency worker to make payments to organisations that provide support to different emergency workers. The Scottish Court Service would therefore be left with the burden of splitting the charges in the 2005 act into their component categories of worker to ensure that the money may be appropriately ring fenced when it goes into the restitution fund. The operator of the fund would also require to ensure that moneys that were received for certain offences were disbursed to organisations that support victims of those offences.
Moreover, the amendments do not address the very obvious practical difficulty that I described at stage 2. In 2012-13, the figures for which are now available, there were 3,137 persons with a charge proved under section 41(1)(a) of the Police (Scotland) Act 1967, and only 139 persons with a charge proved in respect of all emergency workers under section 1 of the Emergency Workers (Scotland) Act 2005.
The scale is thus completely different. Crucially, that is reflected in the sums that might be available. While fines for assaults on the police raise six-figure sums every year, as I said at stage 2, the Scottish Court Service advises that there was no fines income at all in 2011-12 and 2012-13 from any of the charges under the 2005 act. Instead, those were dealt with by community payback orders or imprisonment. It is not clear, therefore, that there is any potential income at all for restitution orders for any category of emergency workers.
Amendments 34 and 35 are therefore likely to result in a burden on the operators of the restitution fund. The income received in respect of assaults on emergency workers under the 2005 act may well be insufficient to cover the operating expenses incurred by extending the scope of the restitution fund to include them. Rather than providing benefits for the intended recipients, it is quite possible that the amendments would result only in a burden on the operators of the restitution fund.
Restitution orders would work in respect of assaults on police officers where there is clear evidence that the volume of potential income is there. The use of financial penalties will result in real benefits from the provision of support services. The same, unfortunately, cannot be said in respect of other emergency workers—certainly not at the present moment.
In those circumstances, I urge Alison McInnes to reflect on what I have said and to withdraw amendment 34 and not move amendment 35. These matters can be reviewed and revisited in due course, but at present if we agreed to the amendments we would harm those whom she seeks to benefit.
I have listened to what the cabinet secretary said, but it seems perverse and inequitable that only an assault on a police officer, and not on a firefighter or a paramedic responding to an emergency, should merit a restitution order. It is unfair that only one segment of our emergency services personnel should have the benefit of the support services that the funds will provide. I will therefore press amendment 34.
The question is, that amendment 34 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 48, Against 57, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 34 disagreed to.
Amendment 35 moved—[Alison McInnes].
The question is, that amendment 35 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 47, Against 59, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 35 disagreed to.
Amendment 20 moved—[Kenny MacAskill]—and agreed to.
Section 23—Victim’s right to receive information about release of offender etc
Amendment 21 moved—[Graeme Pearson].
16:00
The question is, that amendment 21 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 46, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 21 disagreed to.
I inform Parliament that, as we are nearing the agreed time limit, I am prepared to exercise my power under rule 9.8.4A(a) to allow those with a right to speak in the next group to do so.
Section 24—Life prisoners: victim’s right to make oral representations before release on licence
Group 12 is on life prisoners—victim’s rights to make oral representations to the convicted person. Amendment 22, in the name of Graeme Pearson, is grouped with amendment 23.
Amendments 22 and 23 are similar to an approach that I suggested in an amendment that related to oral representations in court.
The evidence that was presented during the processes in the Justice Committee indicated that victims and victims’ relatives felt disenfranchised by the process of criminal justice and that their voices were not heard at key moments in that process.
Amendment 22 would give victims the opportunity to make an oral representation to a board considering the release of someone who had previously been sentenced to life imprisonment. The amendment would have an impact on a discrete number of prisoners.
It was suggested that allowing victims or their relatives to make such representations would cause difficulties in terms of security in the prison and that the person who was trying to make on oral presentation in such circumstances would be under pressure. A range of technical challenges were also mentioned. However, I believe that offering an opportunity to make that representation orally but by closed-circuit television would overcome many of the problems that have been raised.
Issues were raised about whether the prisoner would be able to hear everything that was being said. I suggest that the amendment covers that eventuality and should provide for the right kind of presentation.
Amendment 23 is consequential and concerns the videolink.
Amendment 24 relates to the Scottish ministers issuing guidance to the Scottish Court Service on the minimum standards to apply to the provision of information in relation to solemn procedure. The amendment seeks to ensure that the witnesses and victims who go to court under solemn procedure and wish access to information are guaranteed access to a series of pieces of information.
We have not gone into the detail of what the information might be—I think that that would be subject to discussion—but victims have told us that they appear in court without necessarily ever having been in a court before and without having had the opportunity to visit when it is empty, that they have ended up in situations in which they feel oppressed by being placed too close to an accused person, and that they have had no understanding of procedures before they enter. The amendment would enable advice to be offered, guidelines to be issued and a benchmark to be set.
I move amendment 22.
As I indicated, under the rules I am able to call only those who have a right to speak on the group. I call the cabinet secretary.
Amendments 22 and 23 would allow victims to make representations about release and licence conditions directly to the prisoner via videolink. As I said at stage 2, I consider the proposal to be seriously flawed.
The prisoner has no involvement in decisions about his release or any licence conditions that may be attached, so there appears to be little purpose in the victim’s speaking directly to the offender about those matters. Decisions on release and licence conditions are rightly made by the Parole Board for Scotland, which takes into consideration all the reports on the conduct and progress of the prisoner.
For the benefit of those members who were not present at stage 2, I reiterate that victims in relevant cases are invited to make representations to the Parole Board about possible release and licence conditions. The bill extends that to include oral representations for life sentence prisoners. The prisoner already sees and will continue to see the representations that are made by the victim unless there is good reason to withhold them from him or her, and there is nothing to be added to the effectiveness of the parole process by including the amendments.
The primary concern of the Parole Board is the risk attached to releasing a prisoner, and that risk is best assessed by considering relevant representations by the victim to the Parole Board alongside all the other reports that have been prepared on the prisoner.
In summary, I do not think that there would be any benefit to either victims or the parole process in allowing such representations to be made to prisoners. As I have said before, that may even be counterproductive in giving the victim unreal expectations of what can be achieved through such a process. I also have concerns about the effect on the victim of such direct contact, which could be extremely traumatic. I therefore urge Graeme Pearson to withdraw amendment 22 and not to move amendment 23.
I call Mr Pearson to wind up as briefly as possible and to indicate whether he wishes to press or withdraw amendment 22.
I am disappointed that the cabinet secretary has responded as he has. I am not surprised that he sees little value, as the value would be from the point of view of the victim, who would have the opportunity to express an impact assessment personally and know that they had been heard by the person whom they knew to be the perpetrator. We spoke earlier about restorative justice, and there is no doubt in my mind that, if the victim sees value in it and wants to make an oral representation, the system should be capable of enabling that to happen.
I press amendment 22.
The question is, that amendment 22 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 46, Against 60, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 22 disagreed to.
Amendment 23 moved—[Graeme Pearson].
The question is, that amendment 23 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Buchanan, Cameron (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 23 disagreed to.
After section 25
Amendment 24 moved—[Graeme Pearson].
The question is, that amendment 24 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McCulloch, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland Islands) (LD)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Against
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Allard, Christian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (Ind)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
MacKenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McDonald, Mark (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 44, Against 61, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 24 disagreed to.
That ends consideration of amendments.