Health Boards (Membership and Elections) (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3
The next item of business is stage 3 proceedings on the Health Boards (Membership and Elections) (Scotland) Bill. In dealing with amendments, members should have the bill as amended at stage 2, the marshalled list—that is, SP bill 13A-ML—and the groupings, which the Presiding Officer has agreed. The division bell will sound and proceedings will be suspended for five minutes for the first division this afternoon. The period of voting for the first division will be 30 seconds. Thereafter, I will allow a voting period of one minute for the first division after a debate and 30 seconds for all other divisions.
I take it that members understood all of that—good.
Section 1—Constitution of Health Boards
Group 1 is on the composition of health boards. Amendment 1, in the name of Bill Butler, is the only amendment in the group.
I am pleased to speak to amendment 1. Members will be aware that the bill's explanatory notes make it clear that in section 1(2), which replaces schedule 1 to the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978, paragraph 2(1) of the new schedule sets out the
"three different types of member"
that will sit on a health board.
"These are:
• ‘appointed members' (a chairman and other members appointed by the Scottish Ministers);
• ‘councillor members' (councillors appointed by the Scottish Ministers following nomination by local authorities ... ); and
• ‘elected members' (individuals elected as members of the Health Board at an election)."
As amendment 1 makes clear, we are talking about the injection of a directly elected element that is not independent in some theoretical way but which takes part in the board's work, along with two other categories of appointed member. I believe that such an injection of democracy is a good thing. One should seldom quote oneself, but as I said in my submission to the Government's consultation on its proposed local health care bill,
"Direct public elections would allow the public a mechanism to influence service delivery in their area".
I also believe that the public are clearly saying that
"there must be greater openness and transparency, and there must be direct accountability".
After all, the bill is about transparency and direct democratic accountability.
In my consultation response, I also said:
"I have yet to hear a convincing argument as to why the make-up of regional NHS boards should not contain a strong"
direct democratic element. Accordingly, I propose that, as amendment 1 provides, 50 per cent plus one of the members of each health board—or, depending on the arithmetic, a simple majority—be directly elected to represent the local communities affected by its decisions.
Boards must have a proper balance between those with expertise, knowledge and experience from working in the health service—something that we should not lose—and those who are most directly affected by any proposed change, by which I mean the public. I feel that the blend of experience and direct accountability for which amendment 1 provides is about right.
Again, I emphasise that I support the retention of local authority members on NHS boards—as a former councillor, I do not have a problem with that—but, as the bill makes clear, the local authority members will not be directly elected to boards but be appointed by ministers.
I was going to finish on that point, but I must not forget the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing. I suspect that she had a great say in the Scottish National Party manifesto for the 2011 elections—sorry, I meant for the 2007 elections; I hope it is not for 2011. On page 36, under the heading "Accountable healthcare", appears the following quotation. I will not read out the whole paragraph, but I do not think that I have wrenched the quotation out of its context:
"Sometimes difficult decisions must be made and local people should always be at the heart of the process. To ensure this is the case we will introduce direct elections to health boards. At least half of health board members will be elected by the public."
I could not agree more with the cabinet secretary and the manifesto—on that one specific aspect. It seems to me an unequivocal commitment, and it does not preclude the suggestion in amendment 1, which is for a simple majority. I hope that colleagues across the chamber will support the amendment.
I move amendment 1.
I have no difficulty in acknowledging that Bill Butler's approach has been entirely consistent, both during discussions on his own member's bill and during all the stages of this bill. However, the artificial distinction that he seeks to make could cause real difficulty.
Bill Butler is right to say that people who are elected as councillors in their local authority will then, technically, have to be appointed by the cabinet secretary to the health board, but there is surely a real distinction to be made between an individual who gains legitimacy from being elected to public office by the electorate and an individual who responds to an advertisement, placed by the civil service, inviting people to apply to be appointed to a health board.
If one does not acknowledge that real distinction, one runs into a real problem. One would be saying that people who are elected directly to a health board have greater legitimacy than people who are elected to serve their own constituency. That would be entirely false and a recipe for storing up a real sense of frustration. There would be two entirely different camps, both of whom—the people directly elected to the health board and the people elected to their constituency—ought properly to be able to say, "I represent the public."
To introduce an artificial distinction into the bill, in the manner that Bill Butler suggests, is wholly wrong, and I and the other Liberal Democrats will oppose amendment 1. We wish to retain paragraph 2(3)(a) of schedule 1 to the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978 as it stands.
I speak in support of amendment 1 in the name of my colleague Bill Butler. Members with a better memory than mine will recall that, during the previous session of Parliament, I was one of the Labour members who supported Bill Butler's proposals for elections to health boards. I pay tribute to him for leading the debate and to the cabinet secretary for getting us where we are today.
Like many members, I am shaped by experience in the constituency. I have witnessed at first hand the dismissive and sometimes arrogant actions of successive heath boards and their contempt for the views of my local community. I therefore strongly believe in amendment 1 and in elections to health boards.
Amendment 1 seeks simply to ensure that directly elected members are in the majority—a simple 50 per cent plus one. In evidence taken by the Health and Sport Committee, it was suggested that the wrong type of person might be elected, that community activists who care about their local health services would somehow not be appropriate, and that strange people might win—people who could not possibly be allowed to be in the majority. We should just look around this chamber: sometimes unusual people do get elected, but that is the will of the electorate—that is democracy. The public are perfectly able to elect sensible people to represent them in public services, and health boards will be no different.
If we are serious about improving the operation of health boards, it is right that there is a majority of directly elected members. I do make a distinction: councillors on health boards are told that they cannot represent—[Interruption.]
I am sorry, Ms Baillie. Mr Lochhead, would you mind sitting down? And please do not use electrical equipment when you are in the chamber.
I said that strange people get elected—I rest my case, Presiding Officer.
I think that there is a distinction to be made and, with respect, that Ross Finnie is wrong on this occasion. Having directly elected members is the right place for us to be. I am sure that the cabinet secretary and the Minister for Public Health and Sport, who will have had a hand in the SNP manifesto, can be persuaded of the value of that approach. If they are not, I hope that at least the SNP back benchers will be. It was a promise in the SNP manifesto, and I would hate to see the commitment watered down.
I urge members to be radical and to support Bill Butler's amendment.
I call the cabinet secretary to speak to the amendment.
I am grateful for the opportunity to respond to amendment 1. I was tempted to intervene on Jackie Baillie and ask her to name names when she talked about unusual people, but she then did. Obviously, I disagree with her entirely, but I hope that that will be the only discordant note to be sounded this afternoon.
I recognise and pay tribute to Bill Butler's involvement in the issue, and I am glad that he appears to be winning over his colleagues to his way of thinking. We have always been in agreement with him. I intended to quote Bill Butler in my speech, but he got there before me, so I will resist that temptation.
Amendment 1 seeks to make a clear majority of a health board's members directly elected. Although, as evidenced by the bill, I strongly agree that the way in which health boards engage and involve their communities must change—and it will change as a result of the bill—I believe that our approach of having a majority of a board's members drawn from local authorities and direct elections represents the most balanced and sensible way to achieve that goal. That will not only ensure democratic input to and accountability of health boards, which is the rationale behind the bill; it will help to cement the joint working between health boards and councils that is so important in ensuring that we provide integrated services to the public.
Through our approach—and absolutely in line with our manifesto commitment before the election—we will ensure that the majority of a health board's members are democratically elected. They will be either directly elected to the health board or elected as councillors. As a result, health boards will operate better.
I regret that I cannot support Bill Butler's amendment. I suspect that he will not withdraw it, so I ask Parliament to vote against it.
I call Bill Butler to wind up and to press or withdraw his amendment.
I say to the cabinet secretary that she should never resist the temptation to quote me.
To Ross Finnie, I say that we have a disagreement but we will not fall out over it—well, not too much. The distinction is not between legitimacy and illegitimacy. The bill, as it is outlined in the explanatory notes, recognises three different categories of board member, two of which are appointed directly by the cabinet secretary.
Councillors and those who are directly elected through health board elections will not be appointed to health boards in the same way and cannot be construed as forming a democratic majority. The system fails the democratic test because councillors are elected at diets of council elections, which is not the case for directly elected health board members. If the electorate for a health board election are disappointed with a councillor, they must wait until the council elections to show that—they cannot get rid of that councillor at a health board election. That fails one of the tests that Tony Benn set out in his Nottingham lectures in 1991—the litmus test of democracy, which is how the electorate can get rid of an elected member. That is a serious point: if the electorate cannot get rid of a board member immediately in a health board election, that member is different—they are appointed rather than directly elected.
I wholly agree with Jackie Baillie because she wholly agrees with me.
I hope that the cabinet secretary, even at this late stage, will think again. It would take only a nod from the cabinet secretary, who is also the Deputy First Minister for Scotland, to give the SNP back benchers the wherewithal to join Labour. We can form a majority today and, if we do, we will have health boards with a simple majority of directly elected members. What could be a more opportune moment than when we have pilots? Pilots could test whether the system works, so I ask the cabinet secretary to think again.
The question is, that amendment 1 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division. I suspend the proceedings for five minutes to allow the division bell to be rung and members to return to the chamber.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—
We move to the division on amendment 1.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Curran, Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O'Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Abstentions
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
The result of the division is: For 38, Against 77, Abstentions 1.
Amendment 1 disagreed to.
Group 2 is on the power to remove councillor members. Amendment 12, in the name of Helen Eadie, is grouped with amendments 13 and 14.
First, I point out that amendment 12 does not seek to remove ministers' right to dismiss a council-elected health board member whom they have appointed. I acknowledge that the appointment of such members is up to ministers, but it would set quite a precedent if the same ministers decided to remove someone who has been democratically elected on to a council and nominated by the council for membership of the health board.
Ministers might well feel that there were good reasons for taking such a big decision, but such reasons could, at the very least, be perceived as political. As a result, one safeguard would be to make any such move subject to an affirmative, not negative, resolution. There would have to be safeguards given that it would be a very big step.
Although the removal of a health board member might be 100 per cent justified, experience suggests that such matters can become very political and that the people involved might make different claims. After all, ministers might remove a politician who, for example, was not of the same political hue as the Government. If ministers are confident about their decision, they will not be afraid of seeking Parliament's affirmation or otherwise.
As I have said, the provisions should be subject to affirmative procedure. Ministers might have good reason for removing someone from a health board—and Parliament might well agree with them—but I feel that in this case affirmative procedure is the right way to go. As soon as ministers make an appointment, the matter moves into the political arena, because, as I have said, they appoint someone who is already a politician. That has consequences—[Interruption.]
Excuse me, Ms Eadie. There is far too much noise in the chamber.
If such a decision is to be reversed, politicians need to be objective and confident that they are not simply wasting their time on the matter. I believe that ministers in the previous Administration were very objective, and I am sure that, in seeking the Parliament's support and giving Parliament the right to take a view on such matters, ministers can be confident that parliamentarians can be just as objective.
This is an important and controversial matter. There have been few, if any, occasions on which a minister has removed a health board member in such circumstances—it might well have happened, but I must say that I am not aware of it. I hope that members understand that the point is not to take away the minister's right to remove people but that the Parliament should fundamentally and finally decide whether to endorse the decision.
I move amendment 12.
The Liberal Democrat position is entirely consistent with that which we set out on amendment 1. We genuinely see a distinction when it comes to the legitimacy of members who have been elected to a board in the first place, notwithstanding their terms of appointment. Helen Eadie proposes an entirely sensible compromise, which strikes the right balance in recognising that there is an issue with the removal of an elected member. I am grateful to her for forcing me to read section 105 of the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978, which her amendment would amend. I cannot say that I found it particularly riveting, but at least I now know what the amendment means.
I hope that members will support amendment 12.
I thank Helen Eadie for lodging amendments 12, 13 and 14. I do not agree with them, but I recognise that judgments on the issues are finely balanced. I understand that Helen Eadie pursued the issue with the Subordinate Legislation Committee, which considered it and decided not to proceed with it.
Members will recall that, at stage 2, I acknowledged the special position that the new category of directly elected health board members would occupy and agreed that they should not be removable at the discretion of the Scottish ministers. Helen Eadie's amendments would set local councillor members apart from the other appointed members of a health board by ensuring that any regulations that specify circumstances in which ministers may determine that a council member is to vacate office are subject to the affirmative procedure.
The existing power in the National Health Service (Scotland) Act 1978 to make such regulations is subject to the negative procedure. It is also worth pointing out that no member of a health board has ever been dismissed under that legislation and that such a move would therefore be quite extraordinary. I dare say that that leaves it open to people such as Helen Eadie to say, "Well, why not agree to these amendments?" but a point of principle is involved.
The way in which local councillor members arrive on a health board is different from how a directly elected member will arrive on it. Currently, local authorities put forward their selected member for ministers to appoint. That process will continue, and the act will put the position of local councillor members on a statutory basis for the first time. That step has been welcomed, but councillor members will still be ministerial appointments, and the Scottish ministers should have the flexibility to remove members whom they have appointed if there are extraordinary circumstances to justify that.
It is important to stress that, if in an extreme scenario a health minister had to remove a local councillor member from a health board, the local authority would not be left without representation, and nor would the elected majority on the health board be affected, because the local authority would simply nominate another councillor to fill the vacancy.
As I said at the outset, the Subordinate Legislation Committee considered the matter and opted not to pursue it. I ask members to vote against Helen Eadie's amendments, which I assume she will push to a vote. However, it is of course for Parliament to make a judgment on such matters.
The convener of the Subordinate Legislation Committee is sitting not far from the minister; in fact, he is next to her. The reality is that the views of committee members were finely balanced and that its convener chose to propose to its members that we should not divide on the issue. We did not object to that proposition, as he said that he would have felt very uncomfortable taking a view at that stage. I accepted that on the day and thought that that approach was entirely reasonable.
I remind members that my amendment would not take away the minister's ability to sack someone or remove someone from office. It is about Parliament's right to endorse or not endorse the minister's view, which is fundamentally different from saying to the minister that she should not have the power to remove a councillor member. That is important.
In a matter as important as this, we must decide whether the removal of a councillor member should just go through on the nod, as under the negative procedure, or whether it should be the conscious decision of Parliament under the affirmative procedure, which is what I am asking the Parliament to agree to. It is important that everyone agrees that, irrespective of whether a councillor member is appointed by the minister, the reality is that they are democratically elected by a community and recommended and nominated by a local authority. Very rarely does a local authority appoint someone to a position on a health board unless they are a senior politician, either from the ruling or opposition parties.
Parliament should understand the significance of the amendment, and I hope that it will vote with me. I will press amendment 12 and the consequential amendments if amendment 12 is agreed to.
The question is, that amendment 12 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Curran, Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
O'Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 54, Against 63, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 12 disagreed to.
Section 2—Health Board elections
Amendments 13 and 14 not moved.
Group 3 is on personal identifiers. Amendment 2, in the name of the minister, is the only amendment in the group.
The use of personal identifiers for elections has caused a great deal of debate throughout the bill's progress—I entirely understand why. The requirement for personal identifiers was introduced by Jackie Baillie at stage 2.
I say at the outset that I both understand and respect the motive of all those who have pursued the change. We all want a robust approach to the administration of elections, but I am not persuaded that it is proportionate to insist on personal identifiers for pilot elections, as opposed to full roll-out of the elections. Our proceeding with the requirement for personal identifiers would add in excess of £800,000 to the cost of the pilot elections—a sum that many will consider to be disproportionate to the overall cost of the pilot elections, which is just under £3 million.
However, the debate is not just about cost. It is also the case that to require personal identifiers would, I believe—unless we were prepared to abandon proposals for a postal ballot—be a considerable mistake, in that it would delay the pilots significantly. I do not believe that anyone in the chamber wants delay, whether they strongly support the principle of direct elections to health boards, as my colleagues and I do, or are more sceptical about direct elections but are keen to see the experience of the pilots. I do not believe that anyone wants delay in the process.
The arrangements that we propose to follow for the pilot elections are similar to those that are already in place for national park elections in Scotland. We want to follow that approach because we want to ensure that health board pilot elections can take place soon, and that the maximum number of people possible are able and willing to participate.
I stress that the bill is about what we will do in respect of the pilot elections. What we choose to do in the future, should Parliament agree to roll out direct elections, would be up to Parliament at that time. The operation of the elections will be assessed as part of the independent evaluation of the pilots, and that experience will form part of the report that will be placed before Parliament. If elections were to be rolled out, I, for one, think it is highly likely that it would be considered sensible and proportionate to insist on personal identifiers. I do not, however, believe that their use is proportionate for the pilot elections.
The original approach that we took in the bill at stage 1 represents a sensible and balanced approach that is proportionate to the scale of the proposed pilot elections and will, crucially, allow them to proceed both cost-effectively and within such timescales as I believe we all want.
I move amendment 2.
I speak against the cabinet secretary's amendment 2 because it seeks to remove the requirement for personal identifiers in postal ballots. Parliament should be aware that the Health and Sport Committee unanimously agreed the following on personal identifiers:
"The Committee considers that health board elections should be seen to be taken as seriously as other statutory elections. The experience of the Scottish general elections in May 2007 shows that the robustness of any new elections introduced in Scotland will rightly come under serious scrutiny."
The committee recommended that
"the Scottish Government reconsider using personal identifiers for postal votes in health board elections."
That was the view of the whole committee and it remained the majority view at stage 2, so I am genuinely disappointed that the cabinet secretary has lodged this amendment at stage 3.
I will explain why I think amendment 2 is wrong. First, under existing arrangements for local and national elections, voters are, if they use a postal vote, required to provide personal identifiers—the identifier can be something as simple as a signature—which are, of course, used to ensure the security of the vote.
Members will surely not have forgotten the difficulties that we experienced in the 2007 Scottish Parliament elections. In some areas, questions were asked about the validity of the outcome because majorities were small and the number of rejected ballot papers was large. I even recollect that the Scottish National Party recently questioned the integrity of one aspect of the Glenrothes by-election result. The SNP was mistaken, but the validity of elections clearly exercises us all. I do not want there to be a scintilla of doubt about the validity of health board elections. They will be important elections. They will be Scotland's fifth set of statutory elections.
Although I fully appreciate Jackie Baillie's concern that the elections should be valid and seen to be so, the cabinet secretary said that she did not object to the use of personal identifiers per se, but to the expense that they would incur during a pilot. If the member could be assured that there is another cheaper way of monitoring, would she be satisfied with that?
I am afraid not. I will come to explain why.
They elections will be the fifth set of statutory elections and will be run by returning officers, so they must be robust and consistent with other elections. I know that there will be considerable interest in them and that my local community shares my enthusiasm for them. I hope that they will be hotly contested, because the elections will represent the democratic means by which people will be able to express their views on their health boards. The cabinet secretary argued that personal identifiers would lead to increased costs and delay, so I find it strange that she has promised to consider them should there be roll-out of the elections. If the cost for the pilot is too high, the cost for the roll-out will be even higher. I say to Margo MacDonald that it is surely at the pilot stage that the proposal should be tested.
What price do we attach to democracy? How much do Scottish Parliament elections cost? There is no suggestion that we should do away with personal identifiers for those. We all believe in increasing voters' access to postal votes. At the heart of the matter is the status that we accord to health board elections. I ask Parliament whether we are content to settle for a lower electoral standard than exists for local government, even though health boards are responsible for spending more than individual councils.
The cabinet secretary points to the elections to the boards of the national park authorities, which have postal ballets without identifiers. The annual budget of the Loch Lomond and the Trossachs National Park Authority is £7 million. The annual budget of Greater Glasgow and Clyde NHS Board is £2.6 billion. There is a difference.
I know that some people might not be convinced by what I think, so I ask them to look at the evidence from the experts, such as the Electoral Commission and local authority returning officers from throughout Scotland. They are the people who have the responsibility for overseeing and running our elections. They are the experts, and they all believe that personal identifiers should be used in postal ballots. If members will not listen to me, I ask them to listen to the experts and reject the cabinet secretary's amendment.
I am sorry that Jackie Baillie did not quote paragraph 84 of the committee's report in full. It is important for members to be aware that the committee was indeed cognisant of the potential cost. The final sentence of that paragraph states:
"If the cost and logistical implications are too great to be overcome, the Scottish Government may also have to reconsider holding an all-postal ballot."
In the committee's view, as stated in its report, there was no question but that all aspects of the efficacy of the elections and, regrettably, the costs that might be attached to them, must be considered.
The Liberal Democrats' position is that we have to consider the end gain. There will be some form of pilot election. The result will have to be analysed and we will then have to come to a decision. If the pilot is to be valid, we must know that no questions about how persons came to be elected were asked at any stage. The Liberal Democrats believe that the experiment upon which the cabinet secretary seeks to embark is an important one. Regardless of the difficulties, if we are to have confidence in its outcome, we must have confidence in the basis upon which it takes place. We therefore oppose the cabinet secretary's amendment.
I listened with interest to both the cabinet secretary and Jackie Baillie. The case that Jackie Baillie made—or restated—for personal identifiers is powerful, particularly given the need to protect the integrity of our democracy in future national elections. However, I also listened with care to what the cabinet secretary said: Conservatives have concluded that we see a distinction between national elections and pilots for health board elections and that there is therefore no need for the use of personal identifiers in the pilot phase. The additional costs would be substantial and hugely disproportionate and would militate against the proposal in that they would almost undermine the desirability of the pilots in the first place. Secondly, we too are concerned about the delays that would be attendant upon them. With that in mind, we will support the cabinet secretary's amendment.
I decided to comment because I suspected that Jackson Carlaw was going to make that speech. It seems to me that the Conservatives have a difficulty: their predominant objection is to the cost of the elections, yet the cabinet secretary made it clear that she has not ruled out the use of personal identifiers in full roll-out of the elections. If we are to test the proposal properly in the pilot stage, we also need to test the costs. If we are to do that properly, we must include the use of personal identifiers.
I will not reiterate the arguments that my colleague Jackie Baillie has made, but I stress that what happened in 2007 makes the point about the credibility and validity of the pilot elections much more important than it would otherwise have been.
We are facing the most serious economic crisis since the 1930s. On that basis—by today's standards—we judge that £800,000 is a huge amount of money.
I do not think that that alters my argument. The £800,000 cost for the pilots might make the difference between the elections being credible and not being credible. If the elections are questioned on the basis of credibility, Parliament will be in a very difficult position when we come to debate full roll-out. Therefore, I hope that Parliament will oppose the amendment.
Jackie Baillie knows how much I admire her skills of persuasion and charm, but in this case I feel that she is in danger of making the best the enemy of the good. We heard good evidence that, in a perfect election, one would have personal identifiers, but we also heard evidence that including identifiers in the pilots would add £800,000 to the cost, and would delay their onset. The pilots might fail for all sorts of other reasons. If we go ahead with the full roll-out and decide that the elections are going to be the pattern for the health service in Scotland for many years to come, that will be the time to consider including identifiers. However, we can find out enough about the election process without having identifiers.
Will the member take an intervention?
I have finished my contribution, but I am always willing to hear Ms Baillie, if the Presiding Officer will allow her to intervene.
I will let Ms Baillie in briefly.
I am grateful to Ian McKee and I hope that I will be persuasive.
Aside from the minister and her officials, did anybody argue against having personal identifiers?
I invite Ian McKee to respond to that briefly.
We all agreed that having personal identifiers is the ideal way to run an election, but we are in the real world and we are trying out a pilot, which is entirely different from the full elections. That is the difference. As my Health and Sport Committee colleague Mary Scanlon said, £800,000 is a lot of money to spend just to gold-plate something, when a simpler version would do the job.
I thank all members who have contributed to this interesting and important debate. I do not for a second diminish the importance of the issue.
Ross Finnie—and Jackie Baillie, more by implication—suggested that if the cost of personal identifiers in the pilots would be so great, we should reconsider having an all-postal ballot. I think that would be a mistake. It is important that we encourage and enable as many people as possible to participate in health board pilot elections. The argument also leads me to point out an anomaly in the amendments that Jackie Baillie got passed at stage 2. Those amendments require personal identifiers only in an all-postal ballot. If I were to decide that we should move instead to a traditional ballot, personal identifiers would not be required for those who opted to vote by post in such a ballot. That seems to be an anomalous and bizarre situation.
The second point that I want to make is about the principle. I accept the principle of personal identifiers leading to the security of the ballot when we are dealing with a national election, but we are talking about pilot elections. There are two reasons why I think personal identifiers are not proportionate in this case. One is the cost. I stress that I do not object to the incurring of costs for personal identifiers per se; I was, rather, pointing out the disproportionality of that cost in a pilot election. Should Parliament decide later to roll out elections, and decide that personal identifiers would be appropriate in that context—that would be Parliament's decision, not mine—that cost, which would be disproportionate in a pilot election, would become proportionate in a national election.
Even if we are not worried about the cost, the requirement for personal identifiers would delay the pilots significantly, although we would try to minimise that. I want the pilots to go ahead and I know that Jackie Baillie wants them to go ahead. Even members who are not yet convinced that elected health boards are the way to go want the pilots to go ahead, so that they can assess the experience.
For all those reasons, I believe that personal identifiers for the pilots are not the right way to go. There would be a different consideration for full roll-out. I urge Parliament to vote for amendment 2.
The question is, that amendment 2 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
MacDonald, Margo (Lothians) (Ind)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Curran, Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
O'Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
The result of the division is: For 61, Against 55, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 2 agreed to.
Group 4 is on entitlement to vote in health board elections. Amendment 3, in the name of Ross Finnie, is grouped with amendment 4.
Amendment 3 relates to a matter of some difficulty: how best we not only enable young people aged 16 and 17 to vote, but ensure that names can appear on an electoral register, given that details of persons who are 14 or 15 might appear on a public document. The matter caused serious concern during the committee's consideration.
The cabinet secretary tried hard to resolve the issue and continues to do so. I do not blame her for the problem; she is somewhat in the hands of the electoral registration officers who run our systems. As we emerged from stage 1, the committee learned that there were grave concerns about proposals to have a private register, which would be inimical to the open approach that we operate in elections in this country.
I lodged a probing amendment at stage 2 and I find myself in the same position today, to try to secure the appearance on the register of the maximum number of people in the simplest way. I acknowledge that the cabinet secretary has made considerable progress on the matter. I understand that the idea of a private register has been dropped and that electoral registration officers have proposed an alternative scheme, which would allow 16 and 17-year-olds who are on the local government register by virtue of the annual canvass automatically to be registered to vote in health board elections. That takes us quite a bit further.
Given that electoral registration officers update registers monthly, as we all know, it is unfortunate that they cannot propose a simpler arrangement that would reduce the requirement for 16-year-olds to apply for a vote. Liberal Democrats are asking the cabinet secretary to give an undertaking that work on the matter will continue, to try to ensure that the persons who are eligible to vote will appear automatically on the register and will not have to apply to do so. If such an undertaking is given, I will seek to withdraw amendment 3.
I move amendment 3.
I will speak to amendment 4 and consider how we can extend the franchise to cover people who are 16 and over.
I know that Ross Finnie agrees that it is right to allow 16 and 17-year-olds to participate in the elections. That approach will allow young people to express their views on a service of which they will all have had experience. I noticed that during the Scottish Labour conference at the weekend Ed Miliband agreed with our position that changing the voting age to 16 more generally is the right thing to do. Of course, we recognise that achieving such a change is not without difficulty; after all, we are trying to use existing electoral mechanisms, which are set up to manage those aged 18 and over—
Could the cabinet secretary help me on one point?
I am sure that I could if the member asked to intervene.
I am most grateful to the cabinet secretary for taking an intervention.
I agree with everything that the cabinet secretary has said about those aged 16 and over. However, those who are not entitled to vote at general elections comprise three groups of people: lunatics, prisoners and peers. What is their position in respect of the proposed health board elections?
Perhaps Lord Foulkes should have declared an interest before asking that question. I look forward immensely to his voting for the bill at 5 o'clock this evening and to his enthusiastic participation in the first elections, if those are piloted by Lothian NHS Board—which, in case anyone gets the wrong idea, is a decision that I have not yet taken.
We are debating an important principle, which is that 16 and 17-year-olds should have the right to vote. I was in the process of saying that such a change is not easy to achieve because the current arrangements cater for those aged 18 and over. Concern has been expressed, particularly during the committee stages of the bill, about the original intention to use a private young persons register. Having listened carefully to those concerns, we have identified a way forward—the subject of amendment 4—that will use existing systems.
Let me briefly run through the key features of this alternative approach. First, those 16 and 17-year-olds who are already on the local government register by virtue of the annual canvass will automatically be registered to vote in health board elections. A cut-off date will be set, by which 16 and 17-year-olds who are not already on the register could apply to register so that they can vote in a health board election. The cut-off date will allow for registration of such voters and the preparation of a voting pack for them. Similarly, anyone whose 16th birthday falls before the cut-off date will be able to apply to register at any time up until the cut-off date once they have turned 16. We will maintain our original approach to publicising to 16 and 17-year-olds that they have a right to seek to register and participate in the elections.
The proposal means that a small minority—I hope very small—whose birthdays fall between the cut-off date and the election date will be excluded from the election. However, the approach will remove the need to store data on persons aged under 16 in a separate register. In my view, that deals with the concern that the committee expressed. Discussions with EROs have indicated that that would be a more straightforward approach than using a young persons register, as it would allow EROs to use existing systems for maintaining the local government register.
Amendment 4 will ensure that the approach can be implemented in the election regulations that are made under the bill.
In response to Ross Finnie, I say that I believe that the approach represents a step forward from that which we discussed at an earlier stage of the bill. However, I am more than happy to agree with him that further work might still be required. I give him a clear commitment that we will continue to work with electoral registration officers, returning officers and the Electoral Commission to identify an even better system that will be robust enough to use if health board elections are rolled out across the country in the future.
I encourage members to vote for amendment 4.
I can give Mary Scanlon and Cathy Jamieson only one minute each.
We support amendment 3, which we will push to a vote if necessary, for reasons that are probably different from those of Ross Finnie.
The Scottish Conservatives supported the reduction in the voting age from 21 to 18, but it is not our policy to reduce the voting age to 16. The SNP Government has raised the age for buying cigarettes to 18 and proposes to raise the age for buying alcohol in off-licences to 21, yet it proposes to lower the voting age for health board elections to 16. Voters who will be too young to give blood or to buy cigarettes and alcohol would be tasked with voting for people who will address Scotland's very serious public health problems. We are not convinced that lowering the voting age to 16 would increase voting turnout or interest in health board elections. If the piloted elections are to be considered on an equal basis with other elections, it would be consistent and appropriate to leave the voting age at 18.
I support amendment 3 in the name of Ross Finnie.
I, too, rise to support the amendment in Ross Finnie's name. I appreciate that a considerable amount of work has been done on the subject. As I said in an earlier debate, I am one of those in my party who is more relaxed about the idea of people voting at 16. That said, we should work with the electoral registration officers to look at the matter more generally. We should not pilot voting for 16-year-olds at the same time that we are piloting other public participation issues and assessing how they have worked. For that reason, I, too, ask Ross Finnie to press amendment 3.
To allow further debate on amendment 3, I exercise my powers under rule 9.8.4A (a) and 9.8.4A(c) to extend the time limit for the debate. I call Ross Finnie.
We now know the answer to the question who cannot vote in the health board elections: lunatics, peers, prisoners and those under 18. That is not a happy combination and I hope that Lord Foulkes will not be proud of it.
Like the cabinet secretary and my Liberal Democrat colleagues, I am very much in favour of the principle that persons under 18 should have the right to vote. It is disappointing therefore that no member of the Labour Party or Conservative Party raised any fundamental objection before the stage 3 debate. They raised no objection at committee. I can think of no evidence that has been adduced in the five or six weeks since the conclusion of the committee process that could have led any member to come to that conclusion.
I repeat what I said earlier: my purpose in lodging amendment 3 was not to interfere with the principle or the right of people under 18 to vote; my purpose was to extract from the cabinet secretary the undertaking—which, I am pleased to say, she has given graciously—that she will continue to work with the electoral registration officers to ensure that the maximum number of persons who are eligible to vote can vote. As other members who had concerns about the private register will be, I am extremely pleased that it will be no more and that its replacement is a system that should—if that further work is carried out—allow the maximum number of people to be included.
On that basis, I seek leave to withdraw amendment 3.
Mr Finnie seeks leave to withdraw amendment 3. Are we agreed?
No.
The question is, that amendment 3 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Curran, Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O'Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 52, Against 62, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 3 disagreed to.
Amendment 4 moved—[Nicola Sturgeon].
The question is, that amendment 4 be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen North) (SNP)
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Allan, Alasdair (Western Isles) (SNP)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brown, Keith (Ochil) (SNP)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Campbell, Aileen (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Livingston) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Curran, Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Don, Nigel (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee West) (SNP)
Foulkes, George (Lothians) (Lab)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Gordon, Charlie (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Grahame, Christine (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Harper, Robin (Lothians) (Green)
Harvie, Christopher (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Hepburn, Jamie (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South of Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Kelly, James (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow) (SNP)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh East and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
Marwick, Tricia (Central Fife) (SNP)
Mather, Jim (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney) (LD)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McConnell, Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKee, Ian (Lothians) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McLaughlin, Anne (Glasgow) (SNP)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMillan, Stuart (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Munro, John Farquhar (Ross, Skye and Inverness West) (LD)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Neil, Alex (Central Scotland) (SNP)
O'Donnell, Hugh (Central Scotland) (LD)
Oldfather, Irene (Cunninghame South) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Paterson, Gil (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Pringle, Mike (Edinburgh South) (LD)
Purvis, Jeremy (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Robison, Shona (Dundee East) (SNP)
Rumbles, Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Salmond, Alex (Gordon) (SNP)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Smith, Margaret (Edinburgh West) (LD)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Lothians) (SNP)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Stone, Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Govan) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Tolson, Jim (Dunfermline West) (LD)
Watt, Maureen (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Welsh, Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Whitton, David (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Wilson, Bill (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Against
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Brocklebank, Ted (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Brown, Gavin (Lothians) (Con)
Brownlee, Derek (South of Scotland) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (West of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Goldie, Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lamont, John (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McLetchie, David (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Elizabeth (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
The result of the division is: For 97, Against 16, Abstentions 0.
Amendment 4 agreed to.
Section 5—Report on pilot scheme
Group 5 is on the evaluation report. Amendment 5, in the name of Dr Richard Simpson, is the only amendment in the group. You will need to be very brief in speaking to the amendment, Dr Simpson, as we are out of time.
I will be brief. Amendment 5 recognises the crucial importance of having an independent evaluator in place sufficiently ahead of the pilot health board elections taking place. By agreeing to the amendment, we will ensure that the person who is tasked with the evaluation of the pilot schemes is appointed at least three months before the health board elections are held. That will allow them to set out fully the scope of their assessment and to establish a baseline around a board's public engagement and local accountability activity prior to the elections.
I thank the cabinet secretary for working with me on the amendment.
I move amendment 5.
Richard Simpson's amendment simply ensures that there is adequate time for any independent person who is tasked with the evaluation of the pilot schemes to set out their approach. It also enables the existing structures in the pilot board areas to be assessed before any election. I thank him for lodging the amendment, and I urge the Parliament to support it.
Amendment 5 agreed to.
Section 6—Termination of pilot scheme
Group 6 is on termination of pilot schemes. Amendment 6, in the name of Ross Finnie, is grouped with amendments 9 and 11.
The bill has one very important feature: for the first time, it gives a statutory underpinning to the right of councillors to be members of health boards. Liberal Democrats believe that to be an important position. Unfortunately, however, under section 6, if the procedure for the pilots under the bill does not proceed, sections 1 to 3 will be repealed, which will have the effect of removing the statutory underpinning of the right of councillors to be members of health boards. That would be a retrograde step, and I am sure that it was not the original intention.
I moved an amendment to the same effect at stage 2, but I was advised by the minister that, although she was perfectly sympathetic to the position, she believed that the amendment could be better drafted. I accepted that, and I am grateful to the minister for assisting with the drafting of amendment 6 at this stage. I put it to the Parliament that it would be better to retain the statutory right of councillors to be members of health boards. By voting for amendment 6, and the consequential amendments 9 and 11, that will happen.
I move amendment 6.
I agree entirely with Ross Finnie. Local authority members of health boards play a vital role in providing a link between the organisations that are charged with delivering health care and those that are charged with delivering social care to our communities. I am grateful to him for lodging his amendments, which will protect and enshrine the statutory position of local councillors on health boards, notwithstanding what might or might not happen with the roll-out of health board elections at a later stage. I am therefore happy to support the amendments.
Amendment 6 agreed to.
Section 7—Roll-out
Group 7 is on roll-out. Amendment 7, in the name of the minister, is the only amendment in the group.
Amendment 7 seeks to respond to concerns raised by the Subordinate Legislation Committee, not at stage 2 but at a recent meeting. The committee was concerned that the 60-day consultation period for a proposed draft roll-out order for elections might not be sufficient for parliamentary consideration if that period took place across a recess. The process is only one of the stages that any roll-out order would have to go through as part of the super-affirmative procedure that was introduced by an amendment in the name of Michael Matheson at stage 2.
I am happy to respond positively to the Subordinate Legislation Committee's concerns, and I have lodged amendment 7 to guarantee that the period for consideration of such an order will be no shorter than 60 days, and that it must include at least 30 days when the Parliament is not dissolved or in recess.
I move amendment 7.
Amendment 7 agreed to.
After section 7
Group 8 is on an annual financial impact report. Amendment 8, in the name of Derek Brownlee, is grouped with amendment 10.
In light of the very helpful undertaking that the Minister for Community Safety gave yesterday on a similar provision during the debate on the Damages (Asbestos-related Conditions) (Scotland) Bill, which was of general application, and of the Government's commitment to work towards a non-legislative solution to deal with the principles that are raised in amendment 8, I do not seek to press it to a vote.
Amendment 8 not moved.
Section 11—Commencement
Amendment 9 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
Amendment 10 not moved.
Amendment 11 moved—[Ross Finnie]—and agreed to.
That ends the consideration of amendments.