Business Motion
The first item of business this afternoon is consideration of motion S1M-3892, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, which sets out a revised business programme.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees—
(a) as a revision to the programme of business agreed on 6 February 2003—
Wednesday 12 February 2003
after—
"followed by Stage 3 of Protection of Children (Scotland) Bill"
delete—
"followed by Executive Debate on Fisheries
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
7:00 pm Decision Time"
and insert—
"followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business – debate on the subject of S1M-3840 Tom McCabe: Young People in Sport"
(b) the following programme of business—
Wednesday 19 February 2003
9:30 am Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Executive Debate on Fisheries
11:30 am Stage 3 of Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
followed by Members' Business - debate on the subject of S1M-3864 Brian Monteith: Location of a New Hospital for Forth Valley
2:00 pm Continuation of Stage 3 of Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
7:00 pm Decision Time
Thursday 20 February 2003
9:30 am Business Motion
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Continuation of Stage 3 of Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
followed by Stage 3 of Building (Scotland) Bill
2:30 pm Question Time
3:10 pm First Minister's Question Time
3:30 pm Continuation of Stage 3 of Building (Scotland) Bill
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business – debate on the subject of S1M-3860 Mr Andrew Welsh: Arbroath CAFE Project
Wednesday 26 February 2003
9:30 am Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business
11:00 am Stage 3 of Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill
2:30 pm Continuation of Stage 3 of Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business
Thursday 27 February 2003
9:30 am Stage 1 Debate on National Galleries of Scotland Bill
followed by Stage 1 Debate on Prostitution Tolerance Zones (Scotland) Bill
followed by Business Motion
2:30 pm Question Time
3:10 pm First Minister's Question Time
3:30 pm Executive Business
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business
and (c) that the Justice 1 Committee reports to the Justice 2 Committee by 17 February 2003 on the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Covert Human Intelligence Sources – Code of Practice) (Scotland) Order 2003, the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Covert Surveillance – Code of Practice) (Scotland) Order 2003, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Prescription of Offices, Ranks and Positions) (Scotland) Amendment (No.2) Order 2003 (SSI 2003/50) and the draft Members of the Parole Board (Removal Tribunal) Regulations 2003.—[Euan Robson.]
I have a request from Fiona Hyslop to speak against the motion.
With great regret, I stand before the Parliament—[Interruption.] If Labour and Liberal Democrat members have no regrets about what is happening to the fishing industry in Scotland, shame on them.
Members might remember that we last had a debate on fishing on 12 December last year, in advance of the European Union negotiations. During the Christmas recess, I asked—the request was probably unpopular—for the Parliament to be recalled so that we could have a debate on fishing. I was told that there would be no debate, because the Minister for Environment and Rural Development would give a statement to the Parliament in January and that that would give more opportunity for members to get more information.
The minister did that. During that statement, the minister said in answer to my question that there would be a debate in a few weeks. A few weeks from then would have been the end of January. The Scottish National Party did not use its time in January or its time in February to debate fishing because the Executive promised, not only in December but in January, to have a debate.
The substance—the biggest crisis that faces any community in Scotland—concerns me. The only thing that we have been able to do in the Parliament is to ask questions. While everybody else is asked their opinion in debate and discussion, the Parliament has never had the opportunity to have a debate, discussion or vote.
I make it clear that, on this issue, the Conservative party supports the opposition that Fiona Hyslop has expressed towards the business motion. I invite her to express my view that the Liberals have a choice today, in that they can be on the winning side of the argument whichever way they decide to vote.
I remind members that the first time that the Government was defeated in the Parliament was on a fishing vote. Perhaps the minister is frightened to come to the Parliament and to have a vote because he knows that, last time, he was defeated.
The minister has said that the reason that he wants to move—or cancel—the debate from today's business programme and have it next week is that the Executive wants more time to consider the results of the consultation. If that is the case, why did the Deputy Minister for Parliamentary Business, who is sitting behind him, agree two days before the minister issued the consultation that it was right to have a debate? There is a bit of inconsistency in that, which is no big deal, because we recognise inconsistency in the minister's track record on the subject.
The issue is one of substance. We must have the chance to debate what happened in Europe. We have not even had the chance to do that, and the minister now wants to change the goalposts and have us debate a consultation on a redundancy deal—it is not even a recovery package. The Parliament has to wait as the minister changes the terms of the debate as he goes along.
Will the minister assure us that, next week, he will not say, "Oh, I'm sorry—we've not had enough time to see the consultation results. Let's have the debate at another opportunity"? The consultation was issued on—I think—Friday; the deadline for responses is 2 o'clock tomorrow. Why had one of the people on the circulation list for that consultation not received the documents by yesterday? Members of the Rural Development Committee had to give that person the consultation documents. The minister cannot come back next week bleating that we will have to have another debate at another time.
Perhaps the more serious point from the Parliament's point of view is the process, which is important. [Interruption.]
Order. I want to hear.
I ask members, even if they are not interested in the substance of the fishing issue—as many obviously are not—to acknowledge the fact that there is an issue over the process. Until we vote in two minutes' time, this Parliament's wishes, on which it voted, are to hold a debate this afternoon. The Executive now wants to cancel that debate. There is now a minute to go—until then, the situation is that the Parliament has democratically agreed that there should be a debate on fishing this afternoon.
The Presiding Officer may wish to reflect on whether it is appropriate that, last night, the Executive issued a press notice, which said that the fisheries debate
"has been postponed until next week."
What authority did the Executive have to make that announcement? It was not made with the Parliament's authority.
I ask the Minister for Parliamentary Business to reflect on some of the comments that she has made to me at the Parliamentary Bureau. I have serious concerns that the processes of the Parliament are being abused. If for no other reason than to defend the Parliament's integrity, when the Parliament decides to hold a debate, it must follow through with that debate. Any decision on whether to postpone that debate must be made in the chamber not by ministers, and must not be sneaked out late at night because it suits the minister in question.
There has been inconsistency and incompetence, not only in the substance of the matter, but in the process. I ask members to vote against the business motion and to return us to holding the fisheries debate this afternoon.
The Executive regrets that the time of the fisheries debate has had to be altered, but the decision was not taken lightly. It was taken with the interests of Parliament in mind. It has always been the Executive's intention to allow a full and proper debate on fisheries, and that has not changed. In fact, by changing the time of the debate to next week, we are adding half an hour to it.
The Executive considered it very important for members to have as much information as possible available to them before the debate, including the finalised Scottish statutory instruments. With that in mind, Ross Finnie sought agreement from business managers to postpone the debate until next week, so that Parliament will have the fullest possible information available to it when the debate takes place. By the time of next week's debate, consultation with the industry will be complete and the full SSI package will have been laid before Parliament.
It is important to note that the Executive has been quite open about the process, and has ensured that the non-Executive party spokespeople on the Rural Development Committee have been kept fully in the picture. Indeed, they were copied into the consultation exercise. This is simply a deferment of the debate for one week, which will make available more information for members.
I am afraid that we have witnessed some rather vacuous posturing on the part of the Opposition. I wonder, Presiding Officer, whether you recall the point of order that you raised, when Mr Reid was in the chair, at 5.01 on 24 January 2001. Mr Reid announced:
"There is a point of order and, strangely, it comes from the Presiding Officer."
Sir David Steel said:
"It is unusual for me to raise a point of order, but members should be made aware that one of the parties gave me notice, a very short time ago, of a change of the motion for the second debate tomorrow. I am not obliged to tell members of that change, but I think it is only courteous to do so, as otherwise members will see the change for the first time in tomorrow's business bulletin."—[Official Report, 24 January 2001; Vol 10, c 547.]
That was, of course, when the Scottish National Party altered its business to debate the Sutherland report. According to the SNP, therefore, it is not acceptable for the Executive to give two days' notice of a week's delay on a known subject, while the SNP was prepared to give members three or four hours' notice of a change in its business.
The question is, that motion S1M-3892, in the name of Patricia Ferguson, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
No.
There will be a division.
For
Alexander, Ms Wendy (Paisley North) (Lab)
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Barrie, Scott (Dunfermline West) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Edinburgh Central) (Lab)
Brankin, Rhona (Midlothian) (Lab)
Brown, Robert (Glasgow) (LD)
Butler, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh North and Leith) (Lab)
Craigie, Cathie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (Lab)
Curran, Ms Margaret (Glasgow Baillieston) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Dunfermline East) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill) (Lab)
Finnie, Ross (West of Scotland) (LD)
Fitzpatrick, Brian (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (Lab)
Gillon, Karen (Clydesdale) (Lab)
Godman, Trish (West Renfrewshire) (Lab)
Gorrie, Donald (Central Scotland) (LD)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Lab)
Henry, Hugh (Paisley South) (Lab)
Home Robertson, Mr John (East Lothian) (Lab)
Hughes, Janis (Glasgow Rutherglen) (Lab)
Jackson, Dr Sylvia (Stirling) (Lab)
Jackson, Gordon (Glasgow Govan) (Lab)
Jamieson, Cathy (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (Lab)
Jamieson, Margaret (Kilmarnock and Loudoun) (Lab)
Jenkins, Ian (Tweeddale, Ettrick and Lauderdale) (LD)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Livingstone, Marilyn (Kirkcaldy) (Lab)
Lyon, George (Argyll and Bute) (LD)
Macdonald, Lewis (Aberdeen Central) (Lab)
Macintosh, Mr Kenneth (Eastwood) (Lab)
MacKay, Angus (Edinburgh South) (Lab)
Maclean, Kate (Dundee West) (Lab)
Macmillan, Maureen (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab)
McAllion, Mr John (Dundee East) (Lab)
McAveety, Mr Frank (Glasgow Shettleston) (Lab)
McCabe, Mr Tom (Hamilton South) (Lab)
McConnell, Mr Jack (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
McLeish, Henry (Central Fife) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Hamilton North and Bellshill) (Lab)
McNeil, Mr Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McNeill, Pauline (Glasgow Kelvin) (Lab)
McNulty, Des (Clydebank and Milngavie) (Lab)
Morrison, Mr Alasdair (Western Isles) (Lab)
Muldoon, Bristow (Livingston) (Lab)
Mulligan, Mrs Mary (Linlithgow) (Lab)
Murray, Dr Elaine (Dumfries) (Lab)
Peacock, Peter (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Peattie, Cathy (Falkirk East) (Lab)
Radcliffe, Nora (Gordon) (LD)
Robson, Euan (Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (LD)
Rumbles, Mr Mike (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD)
Scott, Tavish (Shetland) (LD)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Ochil) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Smith, Iain (North East Fife) (LD)
Stephen, Nicol (Aberdeen South) (LD)
Stone, Mr Jamie (Caithness, Sutherland and Easter Ross) (LD)
Thomson, Elaine (Aberdeen North) (Lab)
Wallace, Mr Jim (Orkney) (LD)
Watson, Mike (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab)
Whitefield, Karen (Airdrie and Shotts) (Lab)
Wilson, Allan (Cunninghame North) (Lab)
Against
Adam, Brian (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Aitken, Bill (Glasgow) (Con)
Campbell, Colin (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Canavan, Dennis (Falkirk West)
Crawford, Bruce (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perth) (SNP)
Davidson, Mr David (North East Scotland) (Con)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James (Lothians) (Con)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness East, Nairn and Lochaber) (SNP)
Ewing, Mrs Margaret (Moray) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (South of Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallie, Phil (South of Scotland) (Con)
Gibson, Mr Kenneth (Glasgow) (SNP)
Goldie, Miss Annabel (West of Scotland) (Con)
Hamilton, Mr Duncan (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Harding, Mr Keith (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Hyslop, Fiona (Lothians) (SNP)
Ingram, Mr Adam (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (North East Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Mr Kenny (Lothians) (SNP)
Marwick, Tricia (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Central Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Mr Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McGugan, Irene (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McIntosh, Mrs Lyndsay (Central Scotland) (Con)
McLeod, Fiona (West of Scotland) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothians) (Con)
Monteith, Mr Brian (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Morgan, Alasdair (Galloway and Upper Nithsdale) (SNP)
Mundell, David (South of Scotland) (Con)
Quinan, Mr Lloyd (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Reid, Mr George (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (North East Scotland) (SNP)
Russell, Michael (South of Scotland) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banff and Buchan) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow) (SNP)
Swinney, Mr John (North Tayside) (SNP)
Tosh, Mr Murray (South of Scotland) (Con)
Ullrich, Kay (West of Scotland) (SNP)
Wallace, Ben (North East Scotland) (Con)
Welsh, Mr Andrew (Angus) (SNP)
White, Ms Sandra (Glasgow) (SNP)
Wilson, Andrew (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Young, John (West of Scotland) (Con)
The result of the division on the revised business programme is: For 65, Against 49, Abstentions 0.
Motion agreed to.
That the Parliament agrees—
(a) as a revision to the programme of business agreed on 6 February 2003—
Wednesday 12 February 2003
after—
"followed by Stage 3 of Protection of Children (Scotland) Bill"
delete—
"followed by Executive Debate on Fisheries
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
7:00 pm Decision Time"
and insert—
"followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business – debate on the subject of S1M-3840 Tom McCabe: Young People in Sport"
(b) the following programme of business—
Wednesday 19 February 2003
9:30 am Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Executive Debate on Fisheries
11:30 am Stage 3 of Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
followed by Members' Business - debate on the subject of S1M-3864 Brian Monteith: Location of a New Hospital for Forth Valley
2:00 pm Continuation of Stage 3 of Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
7:00 pm Decision Time
Thursday 20 February 2003
9:30 am Business Motion
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Continuation of Stage 3 of Criminal Justice (Scotland) Bill
followed by Stage 3 of Building (Scotland) Bill
2:30 pm Question Time
3:10 pm First Minister's Question Time
3:30 pm Continuation of Stage 3 of Building (Scotland) Bill
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Members' Business – debate on the subject of S1M-3860 Mr Andrew Welsh: Arbroath CAFE Project
Wednesday 26 February 2003
9:30 am Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party Business
11:00 am Stage 3 of Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill
2:30 pm Continuation of Stage 3 of Title Conditions (Scotland) Bill
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business
Thursday 27 February 2003
9:30 am Stage 1 Debate on National Galleries of Scotland Bill
followed by Stage 1 Debate on Prostitution Tolerance Zones (Scotland) Bill
followed by Business Motion
2:30 pm Question Time
3:10 pm First Minister's Question Time
3:30 pm Executive Business
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5:00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members' Business
and (c) that the Justice 1 Committee reports to the Justice 2 Committee by 17 February 2003 on the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Covert Human Intelligence Sources – Code of Practice) (Scotland) Order 2003, the draft Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Covert Surveillance – Code of Practice) (Scotland) Order 2003, the Regulation of Investigatory Powers (Prescription of Offices, Ranks and Positions) (Scotland) Amendment (No.2) Order 2003 (SSI 2003/50) and the draft Members of the Parole Board (Removal Tribunal) Regulations 2003.