Plenary, 06 Dec 2001

Meeting date: Thursday, December 6, 2001

Official Report 715KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S1F-1444)

The agenda for the next meeting of the Cabinet will be agreed tonight. If Mr Swinney has any constructive contributions to make, I will of course consider them.

A constructive contribution is just coming. Can the First Minister tell me how many hospitals in Scotland have waiting lists that are closed?

No, but I would be happy to clarify that in writing, if the member for North Tayside wishes me to do so.

I highlight to the First Minister a letter that has been passed to me by a general practitioner from the Wester Hailes area of Edinburgh. The letter, which came from the Royal hospital for sick children and was written on 29 November, refers to a young child. It states:

"As you are aware … we have had to close our Waiting List … we are therefore not able to accept the referral",

which was to mental health services.

"We shall write to you as soon as the Waiting List is reopened."

Last week, the First Minister was crowing about a decline in waiting lists, despite the fact that they are still higher than when the Executive came to office. Is it the case that the only way in which the Government gets waiting lists down is by keeping Scotland's children off the waiting lists in the first place?

No, it is certainly not. That is not what I said last week. When I said that it was good news that waiting lists and many waiting times were coming down month on month, I also said that they were still far too high for the individuals involved. The clear objective for the Executive, for the Parliament and for hospitals and health centres across Scotland should be to continue to strive to drive down those waiting lists and waiting times.

Nobody should ever say that the current situation is perfect, but people should recognise when progress is being made by hard-working doctors, nurses and others throughout our health service. At the same time, our objective should be to strive constantly to improve the health service and waiting lists and waiting times.

To tackle those problems, should not those doctors and nurses be given the resources that the Government has denied them time after time? Let me quote what the First Minister said last week:

"We can play around with numbers in this chamber all we like … What matters is the experience of that individual."—[Official Report, 29 November 2001; c 4391.]

I have highlighted the case of an individual who cannot even get on the waiting list for a long wait to get a referral dealt with by the Royal hospital for sick children. Is not it about time that the First Minister started apologising to such families? Should not he give an undertaking to the Parliament to investigate the scandal of the closure of waiting lists to keep them down?

Frankly, it is about time that we stopped trying to score political points and dealt with the underlying problems in the health service. That is what the Minister for Health and Community Care was doing yesterday at the Beatson clinic; he was ensuring that action is taken to improve the management and the service. Those are the important issues in the health service. Dealing with those issues is absolutely critical.

If we are to be sensible about this issue, we must recognise that, across the health service in Scotland, the number of operations, patients and consultations is up. The facilities are constantly being improved, but they are never good enough. At all times, we must strive to drive down those waiting lists and waiting times and improve the facilities.

Did the Scottish Cabinet discuss the presentation of school league tables? Many school league tables do not take into consideration deprivation factors or whether schools have achieved significant improvements over previous academic years. Will the First Minister accept my invitation to visit one of the schools in my constituency that fared badly in the school league tables to see that there is more to schools than such tables?

Of course I agree. However, I should point out that the examination results of children from all communities in Scotland are important, as they open up opportunities beyond school and are a sign of children's pride and sense of achievement in the work that they have carried through. It is important to value the whole educational experience and ensure that not just information about examination results but other information about school and individual achievements as a whole is available to parents and pupils when they are choosing a school or are assessing their local school's performance.

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Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he plans to raise. (S1F-1451)

I expect to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland soon. We speak regularly on the telephone about current issues.

I hope that one of the current issues that will be discussed in the near future is the state of our health service, which, as the First Minister will appreciate, is a matter of grave and rising concern to people. The Scottish Executive keeps telling us that extra money is being put into the health service and that health spending is 20 per cent higher in Scotland than it is in England. If that is the case, why do we have a waiting time target of nine months for hospital in-patients when, down south, there is a new target of six months? Apparently, health authorities south of the border will pull out all the stops to get patients treated on time. How can the national health service in England apparently do more and better with less? Where is our ambition to do better and to match that?

We already do better in Scotland. For example, we have almost twice as many beds per head of population. We can be proud of the service in Scotland. Almost all the service is essentially contained within the NHS staff team, which is something that should be welcomed.

I do not accept the claim that there is a constant call for increases in resources from the Executive front benches. As I said last week and will say again today, although resources are important, they are not the only issue. They were not the only issue at the Beatson oncology clinic, where yesterday Malcolm Chisholm took action about the management, and they are not the only issue in relation to the management of the service across Scotland. Although it is vital that we make the best use of resources, we must also deal with long-standing health problems such as poor diet and lifestyle difficulties that result in disease and illness in Scotland and that represent our country badly in relation to the rest of the world.

We might have more as far as numbers are concerned, but we do not seem to be achieving better results and we are not setting the same ambitious targets as are being set for health authorities down south. That was the point of my question. I rather fear that we will have more of the same old solutions that, frankly, have failed over the past two and a half years.

The First Minister will recall that, on several occasions, I asked his predecessor to consider signing an agreement with the independent sector in Scotland to ensure that all our health resources would be used for the benefit of our patients. The issue should not be about the public sector versus the private sector; it should be about ensuring that patients are treated on time. Will the First Minister show some leadership and urgently sign such an agreement? If he will not, will he tell us exactly what the problem is?

Surprise, surprise. It is unfortunate that Mr McLetchie never listens to answers. If he did, he would realise that there is no problem. For example, last year, NHS Lothian carried out 290 operations using the independent health care sector. Last year, NHS boards across Scotland spent more than £1 million at the Health Care International hospital in Clydebank. In each and every case, it was judged that that was the right way of spending that money, to ensure that patients received the service that they needed. Such an approach is not the ideology of the SNP, which would ensure that hospitals were not even built in the first place, and it is not the ideology of the Tories, which would result in the privatisation of our health service. The coalition parties are opposed to the ideology of the SNP, which would end the hospital building programme, and the ideology of the Conservatives, which would privatise the health service. We put patients first.

When the First Minister next meets the Secretary of State for Scotland, will he discuss this month's fisheries negotiations in Brussels? Will he, in his new role, also undertake to visit Scotland's fishing communities in the coming weeks? I draw to his attention the latest threat to hang over a large section of Scotland's fishing industry, which is the European Commission's proposal this week to slash Scotland's quota for prawns—Scotland's most valuable stocks—by 25 per cent, despite scientific advice that there is a case for increasing the quota and despite the fact that stocks are healthy. Will the First Minister give an undertaking that he will communicate to the European Commission that he, the Government, the Parliament and the fishing industry are on the warpath and will not accept a reduction in quotas under any circumstances but will argue for an increase in them, in line with scientific advice?

I am happy to acknowledge what is a serious issue for the fishing communities of Scotland. The quotas that were proposed this week, especially the quota for nephrops, are unacceptable to us and we will raise that issue during a European Council meeting later this month. Ross Finnie has already met representatives of the Scottish Fishermen's Federation. Rather than the issue being a matter for discussion between me and the Secretary of State for Scotland, Ross Finnie will discuss it with the UK minister with responsibility for fisheries. I am confident that he and Elliot Morley will represent Scotland and the UK very well in those negotiations and take up the argument that the quotas should be based on scientific evidence and that, where the evidence is not there, the quotas should be revised.

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Child Prostitution

To ask the First Minister what action is being taken to eradicate child prostitution. (S1F-1460)

Child prostitution in Scotland or anywhere else is a disgrace. We must punish the abusers and protect the children. We are preparing new guidelines for effective early intervention to prevent abuse and exploitation before it happens.

It is believed that there could be as many as 300 children selling themselves for sex on the streets of Scottish cities. Much of that exploitation is hidden and misunderstood. Will the First Minister congratulate Barnardo's on its work in exposing the myth that it is just young females who are exploited, when young males are also exploited? Will he respond to the critics of the Executive who claim that it is not tackling the issue? Will he make it a top priority of the Cabinet committee on children to ensure that the issue is not swept under the carpet?

I think that the issue is very serious—that view is shared by all my ministerial colleagues. The member will know that, as the Minister for Education, Europe and External Affairs, I instituted a review of child protection measures earlier this year. The review was not specifically intended to deal with child prostitution, but it will be an important move in tackling the abuse of young children. The child committee chairs met in October and started a review of the guidance. We will ensure that that review takes place as quickly as possible; that will be a priority for us. We will continue to discuss with the police forces the effective work that they carry out through, for example, female and child units to pursue those who are involved in this disgrace.

The children's services committee of the Cabinet—the first committee that we will establish—will consider the issue and child protection more generally in addition to other provisions of service. There is nothing more important to us than ensuring that the integration of children's services is right at an early age, so that young people are not left—especially as teenagers—in situations in which they are exploited, abused or failed by society.

I was shocked by the fact that, although the leader of the Scottish National Party said on Friday that children should be the top priority of the Parliament, all weekend that party condemned both the new Minister for Education and Young People and me for saying that children would be the new Cabinet's No 1 priority. We will make children our priority, we will ignore the criticism and we will ensure that Scotland's children are better served by the Executive.

Is the First Minister aware of the tolerance zone for prostitution that has operated informally in Edinburgh for 20 years and of the fact that it has been more than two years since an under-age girl was cautioned by the police in Edinburgh for prostitution? Does he realise that those two factors are not unrelated and will he look kindly on the bill that I want to introduce for tolerance zones for prostitution in this Parliament? Or rather—[Laughter.] Well, it would do no harm for some folk.

I think that we know what you mean.

The First Minister knew as well. That is what worries me.

Although there was a humorous response to the end of Ms MacDonald's question, the issue that she raises is serious and sensitive. I am not convinced that we should legislate to provide tolerance zones across Scotland, but we need to consider the evidence and talk to everybody who is involved before coming to a firm conclusion on the matter. It is significant that, in Edinburgh, no cases of child prostitution have been discovered in the past two years, but I am not convinced that it therefore does not exist.

It is critical that we continue to consider the evidence and consult organisations such as Barnardo's, which has expertise outside the statutory field. I hope that, in considering the evidence, the Parliament can take an all-party approach. The issue is sensitive, but it needs to be addressed.

Will the First Minister and the Executive make available funds for a police task force to protect children who are vulnerable, particularly those who are being exploited through child prostitution?

My advice is that that would not be the most appropriate thing for us to do. We need to ensure that the new guidance is in place and that we have better data on child prostitution. At the moment, the police forces have their own arrangements for dealing with the problem but co-operate with each other and across the border. That is the right way for them to continue their work.

It is not necessarily the case that a national, centrally driven task force should be set up for every issue. That approach is appropriate in some cases, which is why the Drug Enforcement Agency, which I visited in Paisley yesterday, was set up as it was. However, a national task force is not necessarily the best way in which to tackle child prostitution.

Will the First Minister ensure that adequate resources are given to all organisations, statutory and voluntary, to ensure that the problem of child abuse through the sex trade is dealt with? Let us be perfectly clear: there ain't no such thing as child prostitution—systematic child abuse is what is taking place. It is all very well talking about guidelines, but resources are what will make the difference to the trade that is taking place on the streets of Scotland right now.

I am happy to confirm that we are continuing to provide additional resources in many areas that will have an impact on the problem. For example, Scottish Women's Aid, which is dealing with the wider issue of domestic abuse, this morning welcomed our new campaign to tackle domestic abuse over Christmas and new year.

I know that the member takes a keen interest in such issues. It is critical that the Scottish Parliament focuses on the interests of children, particularly those who are most vulnerable and are being abused. It is important that we co-ordinate our response with agencies in the voluntary and the statutory sectors. It is also important that the new Minister for Education and Young People gives those issues the focus that is urgently required and was due in any case. Those in the SNP who have been criticising her for that are wrong indeed.

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Prestwick Airport

To ask the First Minister what steps the Scottish Executive will take to help employment prospects and the aerospace industry in and around Prestwick airport. (S1F-1438)

We continue to support the development of Prestwick as a world-class centre for the aerospace sector. The completion of the Prestwick aerospace park early next year will be a significant step forward.

The First Minister will be aware that, in the Prestwick area, 219 jobs were lost at BAE Systems last week, 170 jobs were lost at GE Caledonian in October, 500 jobs have been lost at the HMS Gannet station and the national air traffic system project has been stopped in its tracks. Almost 1,000 jobs have been lost in an area of less than 1 square mile in the past three months. Will the First Minister consider setting up a task force in Ayrshire to address those problems?

There has already been a Prestwick task force. Its work was done well and is still being followed through. It is important that we see that work through to the right conclusions. It is also important that we highlight the good news as well as the bad. The aerospace sector in the whole United Kingdom has a difficult period ahead of it, but there is good news on the horizon and we need to be ready to respond to the opportunities that will arise in years to come. I was particularly pleased to learn that, although BAE Systems has made the disappointing announcement of job losses at Prestwick, it has also announced that the Nimrod contract that was intended to go elsewhere will come back to Prestwick. We must highlight the good news as well as the bad and continue to take action at a local level to see through the work of the Prestwick task force and any other ideas that may come up.