Official Report 86KB pdf
I apologise again to members of the public and press for having to change the order of the agenda. The committee reporters have now arrived and we will move on to item 3—reports from the committee's reporters.
I have held one meeting on religious issues. I will bring a report before the committee once I have built up a portfolio of reports on the various meetings that I plan to hold. I am not sure to what time scale I am working, as that depends on when the Executive or Donald Gorrie introduce a bill. I might have to speed things up, but at the moment I need to put in place meetings with two or three organisations from which I intend to take reports. I will keep the committee updated.
Committee members have a paper, which Michael McMahon circulated. Do members have comments on it?
I want to ask about the last recommendation, which is that the committee
The CEC is concerned about the perceptions that exist out there. There is academic research from the Scottish Office—in the past—and the Scottish Executive, but it does not include the impact of denominational education. I wanted to highlight that the CEC has raised whether information exists to back up the arguments about denominational schools, one way or another. I thought that it was worth mentioning to the committee, so that we can identify whether that is the case and, if so, make it an action point.
That is great. Is anything under way or planned at the moment? If not, do we want to make the recommendation slightly stronger? Michael has said that we should inquire of the Scottish Executive what is under way or planned. If nothing is under way or planned, do we want to ask the Scottish Executive to progress the matter?
The report will be built into a portfolio of reports. Once we have information from different sources, it may be appropriate to say that we need clarification on the matter.
Will you elaborate on the CEC's concern about Donald Gorrie's proposed bill?
Donald Gorrie says that, based on his consultation to date, he does not think that his bill is relevant to whether denominational schools should exist. The CEC is concerned that the issue will be part of the dialogue and process of consultation on the proposed bill. The CEC wanted me to make it clear that it does not see denominational education as playing any part in sectarian division in Scotland. Whether the bill is introduced by the Scottish Executive or by Donald Gorrie, denominational education should not be seen in the debate as contributing in any way to sectarianism in Scotland. The CEC wants to make that point very strongly.
The bill would not seek to hinder that.
No, but the CEC is fearful—
It is concerned about rhetoric.
It is fearful that the debate would focus on that. We have seen contributions in the press—letters and articles—saying that the divisions between schools must be considered when aspects of sectarianism in Scotland are examined.
I can understand the CEC's concerns, but is it possible to stop that issue being raised?
The CEC cannot do that, but it wanted to ensure that the issue was flagged up. It wanted to make it clear that its perspective, and that of the Catholic church, is that a discussion of denominational education should not play any part in the debate on sectarianism. The CEC believes that denominational education does not contribute to sectarianism. Indeed, it believes that the situation is quite the opposite. It argues that someone who is provided with a Catholic education will not become sectarian.
The CEC wants to have the issue flagged up.
Yes.
The CEC does not want that alley to be gone down.
The CEC is fearful that that might happen. It wants to ensure that that does not form part of the debate on sectarianism. As it has made that point, it is appropriate for it to be included in the report.
That is fair. There is a lot of misperception and misconception around the issue. Teachers have approached me to say that they are concerned that it could be the beginning of the end.
Yes, teachers are fearful about that. They are not saying that, because a bill may be introduced, they believe that it will be the case, but they want to ensure that people do not allow the issue to become part of the debate about how to end sectarianism in Scotland. The CEC wants to make it clear from the outset that denominational education should not form part of the discussion.
Is the CEC making it clear that it is in general agreement with the intention of the bill?
No; I am not sure that it is convinced about the merits of the bill. It is aware of consultation on the bill and wants to see the consultation develop, but it does not have a clear view about whether the bill is good.
Perhaps it is too early for it to say.
The CEC is concerned that, as soon as the process of having a bill begins—discussing the possibility—one of the dimensions that will immediately come to the fore will be denominational education. The CEC is an organisation that exists for the purpose of denominational education. It wanted to ensure that, as the Equal Opportunities Committee's reporter, I brought its concerns that that argument has started to develop to the committee's attention.
The CEC's full views about the proposed bill will be heard in due course, as part of the wider consultation process.
We move on to Elaine Smith's report. Members have a copy of Elaine's paper.
Scottish Women's Aid wanted the meeting to be held. Initially, it was to be on the subject of the Housing (Scotland) Act 2001. A couple of dates had to be cancelled, so the meeting took place finally in October.
Yes.
Does Elaine know them now?
Yes. They are: first, that the committee notes the report; and, secondly, that the committee agrees to send a copy of the report to the relevant minister and to the Social Justice Committee.
I like the bit about the relevant minister.
Are we agreed?
Meeting closed at 11:02.
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