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Chamber and committees

Environment and Rural Development Committee, 17 Jan 2007

Meeting date: Wednesday, January 17, 2007


Contents


Marine Environment Inquiry

The Convener (Maureen Macmillan):

Thank you very much, colleagues.

This is the second session of oral evidence in the committee's inquiry into the marine environment, for which we had an extremely interesting round-table discussion last week. We have two panels today, with whom we will explore some of the main themes relating to our inquiry, including the current limits or barriers to managing the marine environment effectively, and possible improvements to that. I welcome the first panel of witnesses: Chris Spray is director of environmental science at the Scottish Environment Protection Agency; Ian Pritchard is head of Scottish marine estate at the Crown Estate; and Paul Du Vivier is chief executive of the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency.

I am sorry that the Maritime and Coastguard Agency was unable to attend—it could have contributed to our understanding of the interaction between the many activities that take place in the marine environment. However, we thank all the witnesses for their helpful written submissions, which have been circulated to members. I invite questions from members.

Mr Ted Brocklebank (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):

I shall kick off by addressing a couple of questions to Ian Pritchard, specifically about the Crown Estate. As I understand it, the Crown Estate suggests that any planning regime that comes out of the committee's deliberations should be non-binding and should presume in favour of development. It indicates that overuse of the precautionary principle should be avoided. Will you expand on those comments?

Ian Pritchard (Crown Estate):

It is important to say that the local authorities already have planning powers down as far as mean low-water springs. The issue is the planning powers beyond mean low-water springs. The Crown Estate is very supportive of sustainable economic development in the marine environment. Provided that due process is observed by regulators to ensure that development is sustainable and gives due protection to the environment, we would support the economic development of the resource.

Mr Brocklebank:

Is there a need to simplify and consolidate the existing legislation that applies to the marine environment? From the evidence that we have heard so far, there seem to be a great many different bodies at many levels, all of which have some input to management of the marine environment. Is simplification inevitable?

Ian Pritchard:

The Crown Estate is supportive of a bill that is able to deliver a means of rationalising and improving existing legislation.

I am not quite sure whether that was a yes or a no.

Ian Pritchard:

Yes.

To follow up Ted Brocklebank's question, do you believe that the Crown Estate Commission as constituted and in how it undertakes its responsibilities is fit for purpose?

Ian Pritchard:

I believe that it is. The Crown Estate was constituted under the Crown Estate Act 1961, which is relatively recent legislation. That said, it is no longer the body it was then. It has moved on significantly over the years.

In what way?

Ian Pritchard:

We have a much more open and public focus in what we are doing to meet the needs of our customers and stakeholders around the United Kingdom. We are doing many positive things on our urban, rural and marine estates and interests. We invest significantly in research and development to underpin development and economic activity. We support many organisations in their economic development, particularly around the coast.

So, in the context of the bill, you are beyond reform. As an entity, you are fit for purpose. I think you said that you have moved on significantly since 1961. Is that it?

Ian Pritchard:

The Crown Estate is committed to moving with the times and to meeting customer expectations. If changes that offer those benefits can be made to the way in which we operate, we are happy to consider them.

That is encouraging. Will you remind us what percentage of your income is spent on research and development and reinvested in communities?

Ian Pritchard:

We have a number of reinvestment streams. In the past year, approximately 10 per cent of our marine income in Scotland was reinvested in Scottish research and development and other activities.

In pounds and pence, that amounts to roughly—

Ian Pritchard:

About £0.5 million.

You will be aware that the Crown Estate review working group produced a report on behalf of several councils in the Highlands and Islands. I believe that you disagree with its recommendations. Will you tell us why?

Ian Pritchard:

The review working group's report makes a number of recommendations, including the selling off over time of our urban and rural interests in Scotland, the transfer of our foreshore interests to local authorities and the transfer of ownership of the seabed to the Scottish Executive. We do not believe that there would be any clear advantage in the transfer of our interests. We have a high level of expertise in marine matters, in the management of our rural estate and in our urban interests. We believe that we offer good value to our customers. We work closely with the communities in which we operate by having representatives around the coastline and close to our estates. We have a good reputation, which is supported by the views of our stakeholders and customers.

Rob Gibson:

We are concentrating on the marine environment today. Your responsibility for the continental shelf, beyond the 12-mile limit, is coming into focus at the moment. You talk about sustainable development and you have some say in relation to offshore wind farms, pipelines, electricity cables under the sea and so on. Do you also get some income from those?

Ian Pritchard:

We have some say as the landowner, but we are not the regulator for development activity. We therefore rely on the bodies that are responsible for regulation to decide whether development may take place. There is economic benefit from development but, by helping to underpin generic research and development, we seek to ensure that the industries that operate in the marine environment have the tools to operate effectively and efficiently.

Rob Gibson:

You told one of my colleagues that the amount that you pay back for research is about 10 per cent of your income, so it is clear that there is a large income to be made from both the area up to 12 miles and the area beyond that. Your protestations about investment are somewhat strained, in my view. The Crown Estate could surely spend a lot more money to help us to get a balanced and sustainable environment under the sea.

Ian Pritchard:

When we look at new industries, we will invest higher percentages of our revenue in research and development. For the offshore wind energy sector, for example, the Crown Estate has established a trust fund that is used to carry out generic research into offshore wind energy development. The fund is of far greater value than the income that we currently receive from wind power generation, but it is important that we give the sector a kick-start in its early years.

Rob Gibson:

You have disagreed without stating exactly why, but have given us some information about the Crown Estate review working group's approach and you are happy with the marine bill that Ben Bradshaw and his colleagues are involved with in London. As far as I can see, from a letter that I have received from him, there is no intention to reform the Crown Estate. Do you think that that situation is suitable for purpose in Scotland?

Ian Pritchard:

One of the concerns that local authorities have expressed through the Crown Estate review working group's report is that they wish to have local control over use of foreshore. However, local authorities already have that control through the planning powers that they operate down as far as mean low-water springs. I am not sure what benefit giving them extra control through divesting the Crown Estate of its interest would offer them. In terms of economic benefit, revenue from the foreshore is very limited, especially in the Highlands and Islands. The cost of managing the estate is significant and the net benefit—if there were any—would be very small.

Nora Radcliffe (Gordon) (LD):

I have a question specifically for the Scottish Environment Protection Agency and a more general question for all our witnesses. SEPA's written submission states that,

"in the UK, it is probably illegal, under existing legislation, to bury carbon dioxide from power generation plants".

Can you please clarify that?

Chris Spray (Scottish Environment Protection Agency):

The situation is as our submission states, as far as we are aware. We think that that practice is illegal, but it is an area that we would have to examine in greater detail. I would be happy to provide you with further information on that.

Nora Radcliffe:

I was slightly taken aback when I read that—given that we are considering carbon sequestration as a useful way forward.

Our three witnesses represent organisations with varying roles in ownership, regulation and enforcement. We would find it helpful if you could each say something about how you use the current structures and mechanisms to enable your organisations to integrate what you do, to work together and to manage the marine environment. How do you talk to each other?

Paul Du Vivier (Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency):

The Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency was set up about 15 years ago with the specific focused task of monitoring the industry's compliance with the raft of fisheries rules and regulations that had been generated both by the European Union and nationally. It has required a considerable dedicated effort to complete that task. However, in my time in the agency, as interest in the marine environment has developed, it has become clear that there is plenty of scope for the capabilities that we have as an agency to be used to cover other aspects of marine environment legislation. That is being considered as a way forward by the Scottish Executive with regard to the response that Scotland needs to make to developments in the marine bill at Westminster.

Although at the moment our task is very focused, there are opportunities for using expensive assets in other ways, as well. That is not to say that we do not deal with a number of other authorities, not the least of which is HM Revenue and Customs, which we help with its anti-drug-running activities. We also provide services to local police forces and local fire services that are responsible for safety issues at sea. Cross-pollination is going on at the moment, but in terms of having a formal remit beyond fisheries, the Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency has a capability that needs to be exploited.

Chris Spray:

SEPA has about 100 dedicated marine staff working in scientific monitoring and on the regulatory side. They are working at local level, talking directly to the industries that they regulate and to bodies such as those that are represented by my colleagues on the panel. We are also members of the coastal fora and we play a key part in those, particularly in the advisory group on marine and coastal strategy. We look forward to the outcomes from that group.

Other than monitoring, one of SEPA's key roles comes through the water framework directive, through which we have duties in respect of coastal and estuarine waters. There is a well-established system of consultation of the general public through area advisory groups and the area fora that are about to be set up, and also at national level through the national advisory group, which represents the national view and is trying to get an overview. The area advisory groups represent the regional view and bring in stakeholders in their various forms. We look forward to producing integrated river basin management plans that take into account estuaries and inshore waters. We have a number of formal and informal methods of trying to keep up liaison with our colleagues.

Ian Pritchard:

As a single, United Kingdom-wide body, the Crown Estate has the capacity to adjust to differences between the devolved Administrations. In Scotland, we work closely with the Scottish Executive and stakeholders to deliver its objectives and aspirations. We work closely with many stakeholders. The objective is really to minimise bureaucracy and to work as an efficient and effective organisation to deliver the best for Scotland.

Nora Radcliffe:

I want to follow that argument for a bit. It is like belling the cat; people say we should simplify and streamline all the legislation that governs activity in the marine environment. How far is that possible or even desirable? Last week, someone made the very pertinent remark that some things are just complicated. Are we giving too much credence to simplifying and streamlining?

Chris Spray:

Through the Water Environment and Water Services (Scotland) Act 2003, we have already seen that the Scottish Administration's approach to regulation of fresh waters and coastal and estuarine waters has resulted in simplification. A lot of European directives have gradually been pulled into one, if you like, and a competent authority—SEPA in this case—has been identified to consider all those. It has helped those whom we regulate because they have only to come to one place or source. We can then co-ordinate our discussions with Scottish Natural Heritage or with the fish-farming communities to get their response out.

We recognise that more European directive legislation is coming, and we understand that that will closely align itself with the water framework directive, so similar benefits can be got through that. Many of our problems within the first 12 nautical miles originate on land, particularly from pollution. A simplified system with, if you like, one port of call that can examine the sources of the pollutants and contaminants and their impacts, and where businesses and others can come for information, is the way we would like to go.

Ian Pritchard:

It is important to minimise bureaucracy and to streamline regulation—clearly, those must be everybody's aims. There are two routes to achieving them: the first is by voluntary means, through liaison between organisations and through clear and close dialogue, and the second is by legislative change, which the marine bill offers the opportunity to bring about. We are working closely with SEPA and the Fisheries Research Service on a project that will allow data to be e-mailed to a single point from which organisations will be able to pick out data. The client will have a single point of contact for the submission of data for three organisations. We can do that without legislative change. That is the sort of initiative that we should be thinking about and taking forward.

That is exactly what the worldwide web is intended for.

I am sorry that I am hogging the questioning a bit.

Not at all.

My final question follows on from that. Do you see any gaps in the baseline data that we have, which we should try to fill? If so, how should we do that?

Chris Spray:

There are gaps in the baseline data. Earlier on, our colleagues from Scottish Natural Heritage said in their submission that we do not yet know enough about the marine environment. We have a particularly rich marine environment here because of the geography of Scotland—where we sit in relation to the continental shelf and Europe. That is a key factor. There are gaps in our knowledge of coastal processes, especially in relation to climate change, rising sea levels—particularly the impact of waves—storm tides, storm forecasting and other such areas. It is clear from events since January 2005 in particular that we need more information about such things. Those are the key areas in which there are gaps.

The Convener:

I want to ask about issues that cross the borders between devolved and reserved issues, between land and sea, and between Scottish waters, UK waters and other countries' waters. A previous witness posed the question: when did integrated coastal zone management suddenly turn into marine spatial planning, and what is the difference between the two? Perhaps our present witnesses could offer some guidance as to the difference between integrated coastal zone management and—the words that are now on everyone's lips—marine spatial planning.

Paul Du Vivier:

I do not have the holy grail of an answer to give you, convener. Marine spatial planning is not yet with us, so we are still in the coastal zone scenario. Nevertheless, marine spatial planning will have to happen because of all the interests that we have to manage in our own exclusive economic zones.

How far out does marine spatial planning go? If it goes out beyond the 12-mile limit, or even beyond the 3-mile limit, how can local people get involved in it, as Chris Spray suggested?

Chris Spray:

For me, marine spatial planning requires an extra element. It goes beyond the 3-mile and 12-mile limits and tries to integrate the whole area. It looks ahead to the marine strategy and the marine directive, rather than the land-based water framework directive. Also, there is an element of moving from a voluntary approach—everyone being aware and liaising with each other in a mesh that is, I suspect, a nightmare for those who want to get permission to do something—to a clear structure that has a statutory basis and which links to other planning mechanisms. I talked earlier about the water framework directive and our requirement to produce river basin management plans on which we have to report. That is the sort of thing that we are looking for in marine spatial planning—getting everything integrated on a sound statutory basis, so that people will know where they need to go to get the permissions to develop economic, tourism and other projects.

Ian Pritchard:

We see marine spatial planning as the framework—the overlayer, if you like—and ICZM as very much a means of local delivery, with the responsibility for the preparation of local plans with communities and local authorities. The local element is very much a part of the bottom-up approach as well as the top-down approach.

Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):

I have a question specifically for SEPA. In your submission, you state:

"Global warming may result in sea level rise".

You go on to mention some of the problems that that might cause. Why did you use the word "may"? Do you agree that global warming is already resulting in sea level rises? Some of last week's witnesses spoke privately—outwith the meeting—about the problems that they think are happening already. What are those problems? Is global warming already affecting the bird population and fish stocks? How are you monitoring that, if indeed it is SEPA that monitors it?

Your submission also states:

"Arrival of invasive non-native species is being encouraged by the development of the global market which creates avenues for transit from other parts of the globe."

Do you monitor that and, if so, how? What problems is it causing?

Chris Spray:

I will try to cover all those points, but if I forget anything, please tell me.

Your comment about sea level rises is observant. The increase that we expect is fairly small. The figure from the long-running record at Aberdeen is about 6mm per year. Changes in ocean temperature are more critical to coastal communities and habitats. There has already been a 1°C increase. Also significant are wave heights, the storminess of the sea and sea surges. In January 2005, our recording site at Corpach near Fort William recorded a jump in the sea level record of 1.2m, which is higher than it has ever recorded before—and that is not a long-running record. We have much better records for our river systems. We need data from a lot more sites around Scotland on not just sea levels but the things that have a real impact on people—wave heights, storminess and sea surges.

Do you plan to put in place recording systems to collect that information?

Chris Spray:

We do. We are discussing a coastal flood strategy with the Scottish Executive. Next month, we will launch a coastal flood watch service, which will provide the equivalent of the information about flooding in river areas that you will have seen on television most nights in the past month, I am afraid to say.

There are also plans, which are funded by the Scottish Executive, SNH and SEPA, to take the coastal flood strategy to a higher tier by using the Met Office's storm forecasting service to consider what happens both around the whole of Scotland and in regional areas. I think that the call for expressions of interest has just gone out. That work might fit nicely with the regional coastal fora. We are liaising closely with SNH on the environmental aspects.

There have also been changes in ocean temperature and changes in ocean acidification due to increasing carbon dioxide levels. We are seeing some dramatic changes in species. In particular, certain species of dolphin are coming further north and there have been changes in plankton. There is good evidence from the centre for ecology and hydrology that there are changing patterns of reproductive success in our seabirds which, interestingly, mirror what is happening to fish populations. In certain areas, the fish population is being maintained and the seabirds that feed on them are doing well. In other areas, sand eels are decreasing dramatically and the species that rely on them, such as kittiwakes and guillemots, are doing badly. Those are dramatic changes.

What about invasive, non-native species?

Chris Spray:

There is concern about those. Interestingly, the matter is being taken up by the United Kingdom and the European Union in relation to the water framework directive. There is a working group on invasive species, which will meet tomorrow.

We are worried about a number of aspects. First, there is concern about things that are introduced through fish farming and the accidental or intentional movement of not only fish species but invertebrates. Secondly, things that have not happened before are now happening because of climate change. If you want further details, I and my colleagues can provide you with more detailed information on the effects on particular species.

Is there a possibility that diseases are coming in with those accidental movements that you do not know about?

Chris Spray:

Absolutely. Disease coming in with invasive non-native species is a key issue that we are worried about. One thing that we know about such species is that they tend to have diseases to which they are fairly resistant but which native populations have never seen and are likely to be affected by.

You asked about monitoring. We have 100 marine scientists scattered around the coast of Scotland. We also have two marine-going boats. The newest is the Sir John Murray, which was launched a couple of years ago and is a 360-tonne purpose-built marine monitoring boat. We have a national marine monitoring programme, and as with the freshwater marine programme, we try to co-ordinate what is happening. We obviously work closely with FRS, which tends to do the work further out. We have no expertise beyond 12 miles from the shore, because we do not have large trawlers. However, we do a huge amount of monitoring inland, and we link with Scottish Natural Heritage on that work.

Eleanor Scott (Highlands and Islands) (Green):

I have a question on the legal framework, which is initially for SEPA, although I want to hear others' views too. You talked about the marine strategy directive that is being processed in Europe. I presume that you expect it to go through the same process of being transposed into Scottish law as the water framework directive. Do you see that as part of a consolidating marine bill or as something separate, and do you see SEPA as the lead agency? If we had a Scottish marine management organisation, would that body lead?

Chris Spray:

To a certain extent, we will have to wait to see what AGMACS comes up with, and I do not want to prejudge what has been a good debate in that group.

The Water Environment and Water Services (Scotland) Act 2003 was essentially the enabling legislation that brought the water framework directive into being. Having been in England at the time, I know that it is much admired south of the border for its clarity and how it implements the directive in a simple way, with general binding rules and regulations. The 2003 act provides the framework and ideal that Scotland can build on. It would not take a lot to change the act to extend the 3-nautical-mile zone to 12 nautical miles, which would include a lot of the issues to do with pollutants and water quality control that we deal with. Beyond that, activities such as gas, oil and gravel extraction and marine fisheries are entirely different and probably outside SEPA's remit, knowledge and control.

We see the marine directive as an opportunity to do similar things to what we have done so effectively with the 2003 act. We could use that act as a model and perhaps just change minor provisions. We certainly hope to play a key part, as we are the competent authority, and we hope to retain that role and extend it to include the new 12-nautical-mile area. We could then provide a one-stop shop to help businesses get on with their developments.

As I said earlier, a key element of the 2003 act is the controlled activities regulations, in which we have tried to say that the vast majority of activities that occur in the water environment do not need regulation. People need only clear indications of what they can do, so that they can get on and do it. Where there are risks of cumulative effects, we have to consider them, and where they are complex, we have to consider complex licensing systems. However, there is a clear, tiered approach to enable us to get on with the job within the sustainable development framework.

A lot of papers have suggested establishing a Scottish marine management organisation. If we had one, how would you work with it?

Chris Spray:

We are a little unsure about what it would look like and about the establishment of yet another body. We would like to explore further with the Scottish Executive the model of the competent authority for the water framework directive and how it can be taken forward. As I said earlier, the vast majority of issues in the 12 miles from the coast are land based, such as contamination, nutrients, chemicals coming down our rivers or erosion. I am sure that it would help developers and assist in finding simple solutions if a single integrated body dealt with such issues.

What do other witnesses think about the desirability of a Scottish marine management organisation? Is SEPA's view correct, or are there particular marine issues, including the issues that Chris Spray mentioned, that SEPA cannot deal with?

Paul Du Vivier:

I have reflected further on the convener's question about where marine spatial planning and coastal zone management start and finish. There is a broader horizon to consider, in that we are talking about marine spatial planning that covers the entire 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone around Scotland—and beyond, if Europe has its way. There is a difficulty to do with the fact that, outwith the 12-nautical-mile limit, only fisheries are devolved to the Scottish Parliament. How does the United Kingdom manage issues outwith the 12-mile limit without encroaching on Scotland's devolved responsibility for fisheries? In that context, the management options are being explored—in governance terms—as we speak. The marine spatial planning process needs to cover the broader canvas and not just what happens in the 12-mile zone, therefore the requirement for a Scottish marine management organisation speaks for itself.

Is that the consensus view among the people who have been discussing the issue and AGMACS?

Paul Du Vivier:

I cannot speak for AGMACS, because I do not sit on that body.

A theme that emerged from our discussion at last week's meeting was the need for a set of objectives for managing the marine environment. Is there a consensus on the objectives that we should have?

Chris Spray:

Such an approach would be valuable, because I think that we are all looking for a vision under which we can operate and play our key roles, so that the jigsaw puzzle is completed. An overarching objective at national level that takes on board the UK and European positions would be helpful. AGMACS and others have made a number of helpful suggestions that refer to biologically productive seas that are used sustainably, for the various activities that we have talked about, such as fisheries, aggregates, and inshore and marine fish farming. We can easily buy into a single vision, which would help to deliver better regulation and simplify the situation.

Ian Pritchard:

I agree that an overarching vision is necessary. To some extent, everything else will fall in behind it.

Paul Du Vivier:

Significant constitutional and devolution issues need to be resolved, to determine the extent of our vision for the seas around Scotland beyond the 12-mile limit.

I dare say we will return to that point.

Mr Brocklebank:

In response to a question from Elaine Smith, Chris Spray said that certain seabird species, in particular guillemots and razorbills, are being affected by a lack of sand eels. Have you been able to judge whether the lack of sand eels is the result of overfishing and industrial fishing or whether it has more to do with climate change?

Chris Spray:

You make a good point. It is obvious that you have read a lot of the scientific literature—I congratulate you. It was initially thought that sand eel losses were due to fishing, so the responsible response was to close the Wee Bankie sand eel fishery. However, as a result of work that was carried out, in particular by Professor Sarah Wanless and Professor Mike Harris, at the centre for ecology and hydrology at Banchory, it has been shown that the approach was masking environmental changes and that, as a result of changes in sea temperature, the sand eels' food is disappearing.

The reason that I mentioned that some populations of seabirds have gone up and some have gone down dramatically is that, if we go further north to Norway or the top of the Shetlands, we find populations of razorbills, guillemots and kittiwakes that are reliant on sprat. Those populations have held up, whereas the populations that are reliant on sand eels have not. There is also individual variation from year to year, so it is not an obvious picture to start off with, but we have now teased out fairly well the fact that climate changes are what have changed the sand eel populations.

Thank you, gentlemen, for attending. We have enjoyed your evidence and we look forward to reviewing it in due course.

We will have a short break while the next panel of witnesses is seated.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—

The Convener:

I welcome the second panel of witnesses for today: Councillor Josie Simpson from Shetland Islands Council, who is representing the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities; Michael Wright, who is the manager of the global connections department of Scottish Enterprise Ayrshire; Dr Derek McGlashan, who is the ports security and environment manager for the Scottish operation of Forth Ports plc; and Graham U'ren, who is the director of the Royal Town Planning Institute in Scotland.

I thank the witnesses for their helpful written submissions, which have been circulated to members. I invite questions from members.

Mr Mark Ruskell (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green):

I have a couple of questions for Forth Ports, but it would be useful if the COSLA representative could also comment on the answers.

Forth Ports is a private limited company, so it obviously has commercial functions, but it also has regulatory functions. As a plc it is directly responsible to shareholders. Is it responsible to ministers for its public regulatory functions?

Dr Derek McGlashan (Forth Ports plc):

We clearly state that we have two hats, and it is important to emphasise that our primary objective is safety in navigation, which is our statutory function. The Department for Transport regulates that function and can rein us in if we deviate from ensuring safety of navigation.

However, you are structured as a plc, so you have a legal duty to your shareholders. Is that correct?

Dr McGlashan:

Yes, but we also have a statutory duty to ensure safety of navigation, which, as I said, is the overriding requirement.

To whom are you responsible on issues of environmental regulation? Are you directly responsible to ministers?

Dr McGlashan:

Again, the Department for Transport has placed a duty on all port and harbour authorities—some are public limited companies, some are local authorities and some are trusts—to ensure that conservation is given due regard in any decision. That is included in the Port Marine Safety Code, which is a relatively new initiative that the Department for Transport has developed over the past decade.

On environmental matters, Forth Ports is, in a sense, the regulatory body, because it is the competent authority under the habitats directive.

Dr McGlashan:

That is correct.

Does Forth Ports consider that unusual set-up, in which you have public, regulatory and private functions within a private limited company, to be a benefit or disbenefit to the company as a whole?

Dr McGlashan:

The way that we have been set up is the way that we have worked and we have not really considered whether it is a benefit or disbenefit. It is important to emphasise that the statutory functions fall within our marine department and are quite devolved from the company's commercial aspects. My remit is to perform an advisory function, so commercial aspects are not considered in my decision making. I provide advice to anyone in the organisation who requires it and that advice must be taken into account. The issue is primacy: if we have environmental or navigation responsibilities, they must be considered before commercial aspects are discussed.

Mr Ruskell:

The situation leaves Forth Ports open to criticisms that it is using regulatory functions to safeguard its primary legal duty as a plc, which is to its shareholders. Ship-to-ship oil transfers in the Forth have been commented on. In February, the committee will consider petitions that members of the public have submitted on that issue, but I will raise another example of the mismatch.

I understand that, in the early 1990s, a private company applied to open a harbour in Alloa but Forth Ports plc refused to provide buoys and pilots to assist vessels that intended to reach Alloa because, it was claimed, the commercial facilities that Forth Ports has at Grangemouth and Leith were adequate to fulfil the trading needs on the river and the estuary. I also understand that, after having refused those services, Forth Ports issued a general direction to close the waters to the west of the Kincardine bridge. At the time, the Chamber of Shipping described those actions as

"vexatious and an unjustified interference with the public right of navigation".

I will not cast judgment on that, but it is surely another example of the public regulatory functions being in conflict with the interests of your shareholders, to whom you have a legal duty, I imagine, even as you sit in the committee today.

Dr McGlashan:

Do you have a date for that?

I do: it was 1994, I believe.

Dr McGlashan:

That is before I joined the company and it is the first that I have heard about the matter. If you wish, I am willing to speak to some of my colleagues to see whether I can find out a little more.

I am interested in whether COSLA perceives a conflict of interest in private companies holding what in many other countries are public regulatory functions that concern the protection of the marine environment.

Councillor Josie Simpson (Convention of Scottish Local Authorities):

Our experience in Shetland with Sullom Voe is that it is important to draw up a strong code of conduct. We worked closely with the oil industry when Sullom Voe terminal was established way back in the 1970s. That has worked well. We must have a code of conduct that is stuck to rigidly. That has made the environment a great success at Sullom Voe.

You touched on ship-to-ship transfers. We must keep a close eye on them. A lot of crude oil comes out of the Baltic, and it must be transferred ship to ship before it can be distributed into the wider world in bigger tankers. We must keep a close eye on that and we must ensure that ship-to-ship transfers take place in controlled waters in port.

Rob Gibson:

We are interested in exploring marine spatial planning, which has been mentioned—that involves integrated coastal zone management and so on. We have seen your submissions. We are interested in working out how local priorities would be set and stakeholders would be involved. It is interesting that ship-to-ship transfers have been raised; many other issues exist. How can planning for such activities take place in a fashion that protects the environment?

Graham U’ren (Royal Town Planning Institute in Scotland):

We do not have all the answers yet, because the idea of designing a marine spatial planning system has a long way to go and we can take it forward only one step at a time. We are not 100 per cent certain about the mechanisms to deal with some issues.

It has been important in the debate about marine spatial planning to understand that it comes from a set of underlying principles about spatial planning generally, which we must establish and understand. One important principle is that the process must be inclusive and must secure inclusive outcomes that involve the interests of stakeholders, whether they are a community of interest locally or more widely. That is a fundamental principle of any planning system. The system in a marine environment will be based on similar underlying principles but might operate differently.

It is difficult to say exactly how to ensure an inclusive consultative process. From the work on the different ICZM projects through to the Irish sea pilot marine spatial planning project that was done for the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs, and which involved engagement with Scotland and all the Administrations around the Irish sea, it has been clear in all the debates that have taken place that there is a local dimension. Local coastal communities in the coastal zone have an important interest in what happens offshore. We need to ensure a connection between activities offshore and how we manage land use and other forms of activity onshore. There is no doubt that that connection must be made and that it is an important interest for coastal communities.

However, it is true that, if we take the wider view to which earlier witnesses referred, there is a strong case for marine spatial planning to encompass all UK waters to 200 miles. That may be in a tiered system, involving local as well as wider and national mechanisms. If we take that wider view, we have to accept that there will be some issues about which communities at the local coastal community level will not have an awful lot to say. That said, we have to ensure that a system is put in place that allows the appropriate level of participation at the appropriate time, depending on the circumstances.

Dr McGlashan:

This is where integrated coastal zone management has had a poor run for the past 20 or so years. There is a theory that—a bit like marine spatial planning—ICZM started off as an excellent idea and pulled together the various organisations to come up with one overarching approach. However, the United Kingdom Government decided to take the voluntary approach. Although the approach—using local coastal partnerships or fora—worked in many ways, the main problem has been the lack of continuous funding for the partnerships or fora.

Funding tends to come from individual lead bodies—Scottish Natural Heritage is often involved. In the local coastal partnerships, other bodies are involved and act as substantial contributors. That is the case for Forth Ports in terms of the Forth Estuary Forum, in which we are particularly active—indeed, we are the second largest contributor. Historically, that approach has been very useful in allowing bodies such as Forth Ports to engage with other statutory agencies and local stakeholders in an informal process, by means of conferences, networking events and the like. However, not only is the continual drag to find finances a challenge, it impedes success.

Clearly, the approach is not logical for the entire marine area out to 200 nautical miles. However, we need to bear in mind the fact that we should not reinvent the wheel. I refer to what was said in the earlier session on the forthcoming European legislation and the proposed UK marine bill. It is important to bear that legislation in mind. We need to ensure that Scotland does not jump the gun and come up with a system that we have to adapt or substantially rewrite because of overlaying European or UK legislation. That is in line with the recent review that emanated from Westminster—the Davidson review—on the implementation of European regulation, which is a timely report.

Rob Gibson:

If I may, I will butt in for a minute. Last week, at our round-table session, it was suggested that Scotland has a lot of information—indeed, it was said that our knowledge of and ability to manage the seas may be seen as a benchmark. Does that not suggest that, rather than wait for someone else to do things, a Scottish solution might help others, at other levels and in other places, to put in place a good system?

Dr McGlashan:

Absolutely. I am not suggesting that we wait.

But you were.

Dr McGlashan:

It is one thing to come up with potential solutions and highlight the literature and work that has been done—

Just do not do anything.

Dr McGlashan:

It is quite another thing to put something in place when, in 18 months' time, we may be required to rewrite it substantially. The distinction needs to be made between that and the beneficial work that has been done.

A classic example is the marine spatial planning pilots under the Scottish sustainable marine environment initiative, which have only just gone into their practical implementation phase. I understand that they are expected to run for another three years or so and yet, instead of learning from the process, we are going to charge on ahead and come up with our own system. The benefits or disbenefits of these slightly different approaches are still unknown; we are in the early days of this work.

Rob Gibson:

We are not talking about charging ahead; we are trying to set up the process whereby aims that are stated at the Scottish level are applied in a process that involves people. Can the existing process be democratised? At the moment, instead of involving people in local communities, it sounds like a bunch of experts are telling people what they should think.

Dr McGlashan:

It is inevitable that, if a group of experts is asked what they think on a subject, they will give their academic, ivory-tower view of how something could work. It is important that we think about how things can work practically, on the ground. On that basis, I add my voice to the invitation that our chief executive made for every committee member to come to the Forth and Tay navigation service. We are more than willing for you to do so—in fact, we strongly encourage it. Such a visit would allow members to witness the way in which we safely manage the marine environment of a busy shipping estuary.

Thank you.

Councillor Simpson:

Maintaining local involvement is important. Many people compete for the same water inside the 12-mile zone, where fish farming takes place and there are shellfish. Over the years, we have frequently been able to resolve problems that have arisen when people have competed for the same piece of water. There must be local involvement.

We have not heard from Scottish Enterprise. Are your activities affected by the democratisation of planning?

Michael Wright (Scottish Enterprise Ayrshire):

Not directly, as we do not have any statutory planning responsibilities or powers.

The only comment that I can make on the national picture is that we would welcome something that allowed us to integrate our economic development priorities into the planning framework. We are organised to take account of several key industries. It is clear that three of those industries—tourism, energy, and food and drink—have a relationship with the marine environment. Any special planning framework would be welcome. We had a similar relationship with the national planning framework when it was developed a year or so ago.

Mr Brocklebank:

As Mark Ruskell said, we will consider issues relating to Forth Ports and ship-to-ship oil transfers in the future, but we may not be fortunate enough to have somebody like Josie Simpson with us then. I want to probe a little further his thoughts on achieving safe and effective ship-to-ship oil transfers. People on Sullom Voe have a lot of experience of offloading oil into tanks, but do they have experience of ship-to-ship transfers in the sheltered waters there?

Councillor Simpson:

Yes. We carried out pilot schemes on the jetties on Sullom Voe around two years ago. Such work is slowly increasing—we are getting more of it—and we must go in that direction. The work should be carried out in controlled harbour waters where booms can be deployed immediately to contain spillages; that is not possible in the open sea. We must be strong on the issue and work inside controlled harbour waters.

There have been occasional spillages over the years from tankers offloading in Sullom Voe. What has been the impact of those spillages?

Councillor Simpson:

They have had a very limited impact. The precautions that are in place, which include booms and skimmers, mean that the environment in the port of Sullom Voe for the past 25 to 30 years has been a credit to that port. There are still otters there and the seaweed is in excellent condition. Ship-to-ship transfers must take place in a controlled environment in which any spillages can be taken care of.

If Forth Ports decided not to go ahead with the operation in the Forth, would people in Shetland welcome such an operation in Sullom Voe?

Councillor Simpson:

I think that we would, but we are not here to take away trade from the Firth of Forth. However, there is something that we can do: we have onshore tanks in which oil can be stored before it is moved into bigger tankers.

Eleanor Scott:

I want to return to basics. What is wrong with the current marine planning arrangements and licensing activities? What problems exist? That is probably a question for everybody, but perhaps the Royal Town Planning Institute in Scotland could answer it first.

Graham U'ren:

There is continual reporting of the need to resolve conflicting interests on an area basis—in one area as opposed to another—but the real value of spatial planning is in adding value in developing a system that is about not just mapping the constraints better, but sieving out areas where there are opportunities to develop and exploit resources in a sustainable way—areas where certain circumstances prevail and the environmental condition is more robust than it is in the areas where we want to constrain development.

The existing regulatory approach is only about imposing constraints; it does not answer the question, "If we can't go here, where can we go?" The more that examples of that experience are reported, the more the case for marine spatial planning seems to build. We are not necessarily pushing for that; we are here to facilitate the debate on whether a planning system will resolve the problem.

I will say this before anyone else says it: we are certainly not experts on the marine environment as such, but we can see a way of introducing a system that might help to address problems that other people tell us about. That is my view of the need for a marine planning system.

Councillor Simpson:

In Shetland, part of our system for marine planning is a marine sub-committee that handles works licences in relation to fish farming and shellfish, which I think works very well. We can work closely with the inshore fishermen. I do not have a problem with the system that we have just now.

Michael Wright:

I reiterate a point that was made earlier: it is more about the opportunities than the constraints of the system. We do not have experience of the sharp end of implementation of projects. A practical example is renewable energy, particularly wave and tidal power. The question is whether we can use the planning regimes to be more proactive in promoting the opportunity that exists, not just to meet the needs of sustainable energy for Scotland but as a lever for economic growth.

Eleanor Scott:

I note from the Forth Ports submission that you are sceptical about the need for marine spatial planning. Do you acknowledge that, given the increased use of the marine environment that will result from renewable energy developments coming on stream, there might be a need for spatial planning?

Dr McGlashan:

There is always the potential for conflicts to arise between various activities, which we see in the coastal environment in particular—hence our submission's focus on the coastal environment rather than the offshore area. It is important to remember that there is an element of marine spatial planning of the offshore area, such as of oil and gas, through Westminster, and of fisheries, through the common fisheries policy. Whether you agree with the outcome is another issue.

A big caveat is that natural processes ignore administrative boundaries. We can draw a line on a map, on land, and the natural processes will still move between the different cells that we have identified. In the marine environment, everything is even more mobile. It is incredibly difficult to draw a circle around something and say that that is where you can—or cannot—do X, Y or Z, because whatever is of interest there might not be there next time you go. That is something of which you have to be acutely aware. Defining legal boundaries for conservation designations on land or in the coastal-land interface is incredibly difficult. It has proved to be a challenge for organisations such as Scottish Natural Heritage and similar bodies in England, Wales and Northern Ireland since the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981 came in.

Eleanor Scott:

The consensus seems to be that if we were to go for marine spatial planning, we should be looking for opportunities. You seemed to be talking about an overarching thing. Are you talking about a national UK organisation or a Scottish organisation? In the Scottish context, who would you see taking that on, or are we talking about creating a new organisation?

Graham U'ren:

That is a key question, but I am not sure that we are quite ready to answer it. I refer back to Derek McGlashan's point. The issue about the dynamism of the marine environment points strongly to a need to establish a much wider planning unit. That is where some of the issues about the scope of the ICZM partnerships conducting marine spatial planning at a local level come in. With the best will in the world, those partnerships cannot have an overview that is wide enough to encompass some of the ecosystem-wide dynamic issues to which Derek McGlashan referred. That is why much of the work that has been done so far to establish an administrative unit for planning has focused strongly on what is called the regional sea dimension.

Although there is some scope for planning to be carried out at the relatively local level of the coastal and major offshore partnership approach, we are considering how we can invest in that tier of the administration of the whole process that represents a wider regional view. Whatever that regional view is, the debate starts with the regional seas as defined by the Joint Nature Conservation Committee for the UK. They could be amalgamated for economy of scale to get enough administrative critical mass—enough skills and so on—into the authority.

We are not talking about a massive bureaucracy. In fact, we do not want an over-large bureaucracy. If we are going to create a statutory regulatory role rather than the voluntary integrated programme approach through ICZM partnerships, we will have to set up an authority that has enough power, stability and Government clout, and a process of redress to ministers such as local authorities, as planning authorities, have.

Such a body will probably be established at the region level, but it could be done under a UK regime. I know that Ross Finnie, through AGMACS, is looking closely at how it could be done by having regional seas within a Scottish entity. The challenge is that, to get an integrated approach, it will be necessary to consider scoping the range of the plan process not just within devolved powers, but within a number of functions that come under reserved powers as well. To get a properly integrated plan, we must get an accommodation with the UK Government that will allow us to find a Scottish solution to the problem; otherwise, there may have to be a UK network of agencies.

By and large, we are still looking at a three-tier system. The Government—either at the UK level or in Scotland—must have its overview. Below that, there must be a network of planning authorities at regional sea level, run by one or other—or both—of them. Below that, there must be local solutions as well, to enable us to deal with all the local circumstances. It is not an easy answer to give you, but that is, conceptually, the way in which things are going.

Nora Radcliffe:

I ask Graham U'ren to expand on the practicalities of that, as he sees them. I suppose that the model is the old structure plan and local plan, but in this case the top level would be UK-wide and the lower levels would be Scotland-wide and local. Do you think that that would work in practice?

Graham U'ren:

The practicalities of getting a properly integrated approach to a spatial plan for a regional sea involve an accommodation with the UK Government the like of which we have not seen so far. That is of no surprise to me, as our profession has been debating how we can deal with UK-wide spatial issues. We cannot get away from them—they are there anyway.

The UK's ports policy is a reserved issue, but we know that the implications in the devolved regime are around planning issues. It is a bit of a challenge to get a spatial view across the UK to help us to make more sensible decisions within the devolved jurisdiction. However, spatial issues constantly drive the need to go back and stop demarcation of functions and start talking about how we can co-operate better to deal with the wider UK perspective of what happens where—it is germane to the relative success of the regions in the UK as well as in the European context. There might have to be co-operation the like of which we have not yet seen to allow the Scottish Administration to oversee a properly integrated approach, particularly at a regional level.

As you say, that is a challenge.

The Convener:

We have talked about how the planning process might work with its various layers and structures. Let us think about the objectives, what the planning process wants us to do and what our priorities are. We spoke about democratisation and how people at local level could feed into the process. Does anyone have any indication that people at local level know what the priorities are for the marine environment? What do you see as the priorities? Are they economic or concerned with biodiversity? Does Councillor Simpson have a view on that?

Councillor Simpson:

The priority is commercial, but it is also environmental. We work closely with SNH on our shellfish control and on works licences. It is important that we have local involvement because local people know both sides of the argument. We all have to be interested in our environment. I spoke earlier about the port of Sullom Voe, on which we worked very closely with the industry. The same applies in this situation: we have to work closely with the aquaculture, fishing and shellfish industries. Commercial and environmental interests share priority.

Dr McGlashan, what about the Forth estuary fora? Does your membership have views on what the priorities are?

Dr McGlashan:

It is fair to say that each member has their own priorities. Obviously, as on many of the different fora, the membership is made up of the harbour authorities, the local authorities, other statutory agencies such as Scottish Natural Heritage, and some of the non-governmental organisations such as RSPB Scotland and wildlife trusts.

Although everyone has a slightly different opinion, the common goal is to ensure that everyone can work together to try to ensure that the Forth environment is sustained. The overall aim of the Forth estuary fora, like all the firth initiatives, is to promote the wise and sustainable use of the Forth. That sums it all up. If we go down the marine spatial planning route, it is logical to have that as our aim. Our aim is not to exploit all the resources and we are not trying to take a kid-gloves approach to make sure that no one is allowed to touch it; we are trying to get a sustainable development balance.

In the early 1990s, much was made of trying to separate the polarised perspectives of the conservation movement and the industrialists and we made great strides. Increasingly, however, that polarity could re-emerge in as clear a way as it did after the war. We want to ensure that we keep the balance between protecting our heritage and ensuring that we do not cripple our economy.

If the other two panellists have nothing to add on that subject, is it the case that there is consensus about our objectives for the marine environment?

Graham U’ren:

I underline the point that was made at the outset: the priority is to get the balance right between environmental issues and opportunities for economic development. The planning system will need to be part of the strategy but it will certainly not be the whole strategy. Many other aspects of a marine coastal strategy need to be developed.

I thank the witnesses for coming. Your evidence was much appreciated.

We will have a break while we wait for the minister to arrive.

Meeting suspended.

On resuming—