Equal Opportunities Committee, 13 Feb 2001

Meeting date: Tuesday, February 13, 2001

Official Report 148KB pdf

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Reporters

The final item on the agenda in the public part of the meeting is reports from reporters. There is a written report from Michael McMahon about his meeting with refugee schoolchildren. Does he want to say anything about it?

I start by acknowledging the effort that the children made to come and speak to us. It was depressing to hear about the problems that they are having, but it was encouraging to hear how positive they are in coming to terms with those difficulties.

I thank Richard Walsh for pulling together the paper for us—we were given an incredible amount of information in half an hour. The children fired all sorts of information at us. Jamie McGrigor and I, who attended the meeting, were grateful for that. Some of the issues may be worth considering in relation to our response to the Housing (Scotland) Bill.

There are wider issues to do with relocation policies. As Robina Qureshi said earlier, an organisation based in London, which has no knowledge of the people in Glasgow, is putting refugees in places such as Sighthill, miles away from anything that they need to help them to settle here. Muslims are being put miles from the nearest mosque and in areas where there are no shops selling halal food. Those are practical problems, of which an organisation in London would not be aware. The organisation looked at where there was accommodation and put the refugees in Sighthill. What those children were experiencing was simply the result of bad policy.

The children raised the practical difficulties of coming here. They want to integrate into the community. They have a fairly good system in the school—they were fairly positive about the help that they receive there. Their major concern was what happens after school and between school and home. They are denied access to local community centres because they have to pay to get in and you cannot pay with a voucher. That is a whole avenue that is shut off to the children.

On the heating problems in the houses, they were not asking for anything that, for example, a Glaswegian living in a tower block in Sighthill would not get from the council. However, if people could afford it, they would buy another form of heating, such as a Calor Gas or an electric heater—those cannot be bought with vouchers. The children raised those problems very articulately. They were appreciative of whatever help they can get, but were not afraid to tell us about the areas where they think there are problems.

We have tried to pull together all those issues, some of which could be considered in relation to the Housing (Scotland) Bill. Ministers with responsibility for such issues should be given the information that we were given by the children. It was heartening on one level, and depressing on another.

It is quite an eye-opening report. I have only just received a copy, but what strikes me is how bad the voucher system is for the children. The swimming pool is sitting on their doorstep and they cannot pay to go there—that simple example brings it all home.

Absolutely.

The report mentions that the children are being bullied, which is the reason we talked to them in the first place. Although there have been instances of bullying in school, the children said that the support that they have received there is fairly good. In some areas there was no specific support, although one organisation had tried to help as much as it could. As a result of the concierge system in the tower block, there was little or no bullying in the building. The children felt safe when they were at home or at school, but there was no possibility of integrating into the wider community.

They cannot afford to go places.

The wider implications of the issues we were considering were always being brought home to us. The exclusion was endemic. By its nature, the way the children had to live excluded them from society.

All that for want of having a quid or two in their pockets like everybody else.

That came through loud and clear.

The children appreciate the reasons for many of the difficulties that they encounter. The problems are practical ones associated with being put in Sighthill, miles away from the nearest mosque. They cannot get to the mosque by bus, as buses will not take vouchers. They almost feel as if they have been dumped in Sighthill—that is very sad.

While Michael McMahon and Jamie McGrigor were meeting the children and having a detailed discussion, I was having lunch with another group of children. What struck me was the great reluctance among refugee and asylum seeker children to admit to being bullied and harassed. Their parents tell them not to cause trouble in their new home and to be nice. It is good that the children opened up to you like that.

They warmed up once they realised that we were there to listen to them.

The minister who came to speak to the youngsters at the meeting I was at was Malcolm Chisholm. I do not know the protocol for this, but it might be worth asking the minister's office for a transcript of the questions the children asked him, and whether they will be taken any further.

I am aware that I am fairly new to the committee, but it strikes me that the most heinous inequality in our society is the way in which asylum seekers and refugees are treated. Has the Equal Opportunities Committee discussed that as a major issue in the past?

Yes. Robina Qureshi has been here before.

She was here on that issue.

It has been raised by groups such as PAIH and the Commission for Racial Equality. We have considered the refugee issue—not extensively, but it is something that we have been aware of. When groups such as PAIH have been here we have taken the opportunity to ask them to tell us about the issue.

Has the committee done anything about it—put in a report to the Executive, for example?

We have heard evidence on various aspects of the issue, which we can put forward for stage 1 of the Housing (Scotland) Bill. I know that the Local Government Committee will be considering specific issues later in the year.

It will be talking about it this afternoon.

It would be useful to ask Michael McMahon, as the committee's race reporter, to feed in to the Local Government Committee's discussion of the wider issues, which have equal opportunities implications.

Could we get together to discuss that, Michael, and you could give me an update?

Yes. As I said, when such issues are being discussed, I will always inform members of this committee in advance so that they can come along if they want to. We can have informal reporters' sessions and then come back to the committee.

There are issues around the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Cathy Jamieson had a members' business debate on the subject some time ago. It was pointed out then that although immigration and asylum are a reserved matter, schools, education, health, social work, housing and other issues are devolved. Vouchers were mentioned in that debate. If I recall, the minister said that the situation would be monitored and that feedback would be given to the Westminster Parliament. I agree with Michael McMahon's recommendations, but I wonder whether there is any way in which we can give feedback on the voucher system to Westminster or to a joint committee.

The Social Justice Committee has just published a report on the issue, which it would be useful for us to have a look at. Given the fact that the Local Government Committee is considering the matter and the Social Justice Committee is feeding into its deliberations, it would be useful to feed in as well, rather than go off at a tangent. We can ask for the views of this committee to be taken on board by the Local Government Committee and fed into the Westminster system. I will let the Local Government Committee know that we will take an interest in the matter and I shall report back to members about the time scale.

Could my report form the basis of a submission to the Local Government Committee?

Your report is useful and covers many areas, but we might want to take more evidence on the subject, as there may be other issues that are relevant to the committee's remit. Michael McMahon's report can certainly act as a starting point for evidence to the lead committee for stage 1 of the Housing (Scotland) Bill. Because it is such a distressing topic, people want to rush off and start doing things immediately, but I think that it would be useful to take more evidence and decide on the best way of progressing. We should certainly not duplicate work that is being done by other committees.

I will contact the Local Government Committee and I will ask the clerk to ensure that all members get a copy of the Social Justice Committee's report.

Do members agree on the recommendations in Michael McMahon's report?

Members indicated agreement.

Do members also agree to copy the report to the cross-party parliamentary group on refugees and asylum seekers?

Members indicated agreement.

Do other reporters want to report anything before we move into private session?

I am taking evidence this afternoon on the women and justice agenda. I will report back on that at a subsequent meeting.

Meeting continued in private until 12:30.