Official Report 150KB pdf
Agenda item 3 is evidence from the Minister for Europe, External Affairs and Culture on the Scottish Government's China plan. I am pleased to welcome the minister, who is accompanied by Deborah Smith, who is deputy director for the Scottish Government's international division, and Fiona McLauchlan, who is its China policy adviser. I believe that the minister will make a short opening statement.
I know that the committee has taken quite a bit of evidence from external stakeholders who are engaged in China-related activity. Having read through the Official Report of that evidence, I was pleased to see that people are generally positive about Scotland having a distinct China plan.
Thanks very much, minister. Clearly, there is a great deal going on. As you say, our evidence-taking sessions so far have been generally positive. However, a number of themes have emerged. Among them are connectivity and stakeholder groups. Although witnesses could see how the good work that is going on assists their individual programmes and partnerships, they were interested in the plan for a stakeholder group, which you mentioned. Will you say something about how that group will come together and what the timescale for that is? Will you also comment on connectivity and ensuring that we all benefit and that everyone talks to everyone else?
Yes, of course. I noticed that the evidence that was given to the committee included comment about a high-level stakeholder group. In our China plan, we talk about having twice-yearly meetings of such a group. I am keen to ensure that it is a very high-level stakeholder group, because our division's China plan spans the different aspects of Government. Education, which includes science, is a strong part of that, and then there is the business side. Those areas of Government have specific groups of their own with which they interact constantly—for example, the education stakeholder group is strong. Therefore, I am keen that the stakeholder group should be, and remain, high level and should not become a routine pulling together of people just for the sake of talking. For example, I want to pull together the group prior to this year's visits by the First Minister and the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning to discuss what value its members can offer and what suggestions they can make for the visits, so the group must be fairly strategic. I imagine that it would meet fairly soon and that all the existing groups for different elements of the Government's work would feed into it at a high level.
We are discussing the refreshed China plan, but many of its objectives and targets are similar to those in the previous plan. What is the difference, and what process did you go through to arrive at the refreshed plan?
I will give you a broad outline and then hand over to Fiona McLauchlan, who drove that work.
To refresh the China plan, we brought together Scottish Government policy officials and their external stakeholders. On tourism, for example, we ensured that the plan's tourism objective fitted in with VisitScotland strategic plans and told VisitScotland that that objective was its target and that it would work with policy officials to ensure that it achieved it.
What improvements on the previous plan are to be found in the current plan? Did you consult the Chinese before coming up with mark 2?
We are six months down the line. Obviously, evaluations will be done at the appropriate time. All that I can give the committee at present is my impression of the improvements. From my reading of the evidence that the committee has taken, it is clear that the stakeholders feel that there has been a refocus and that we are on the right way forward.
Education is a good example. Our first secretary for Scottish affairs is in regular contact with the Chinese and has regular meetings with the ministry of education in China. That is being done to ensure that what we are doing on the memorandum of understanding on education, which Fiona Hyslop signed last year, is consistent with what the Chinese want to do in that respect. We are working in collaboration with the Chinese Government to ensure that we are heading in the right direction together.
What was the thinking behind the Scottish Government not becoming involved in all five distinct regions of China but deciding to focus on one region—Shandong?
We inherited the Shandong agreement, which is beneficial for Scotland. In the context of our wider international strategy, we are clear that we should not necessarily tie ourselves only to regional relationships. At the time, I think that the word we used was "opportunistic". I am up front about that; we should always look for the best opportunities for Scotland. The work in Shandong is going well, but other opportunities will arise including those that are based on themes rather than on geographical regions and from which Scotland can get maximum advantage. We will always be open to such possibilities.
We heard evidence that the Chinese would prefer Scottish Government plans or strategies to come within the overall United Kingdom strategy—indeed, they drew comfort from that. Is that the way in which your thinking is going? Do you believe that our plan fits into the overall UK plan for China?
I believe that there are specific and special things that Scotland is good at and for which we have a level of excellence. That is not to say that doing what the member suggests is not part of the settlement in which we are engaged. Of course, we are always aware of the work of Government departments south of the border, such as UK Trade and Investment and the department that deals with education and families—I cannot recollect its name; it has changed name recently. It would be counter-productive if we were to do something that is in direct opposition to work that our UK partners are doing. The point is always taken on board.
I have a list of questions, but I will bring in Alex Neil on that point.
It is not often that I agree with Gordon Brown, but I agree with what he said yesterday: billions of pounds-worth of business is to be got in the months and years ahead from Asia, including, and particularly, from China. The big issue that all Scottish companies face is the impact of the downturn, including the increase in unemployment and the general prospect of getting business. To be fair, that question might be more for John Swinney than for the minister's portfolio. However, is there not a case for stepping up, as a matter of urgency, our trade missions and our contact with China, and indeed other Asian countries, to try to win some of the orders that are going?
There is general recognition about that on our part—in a moment, I will pass over to Deborah Smith about some of the specifics of the work that Scottish Development International is doing. I very much hope that the First Minister's visit in April will focus on some of those issues.
I confirm that the SDI management board, which is chaired by Andrew Goudie, director-general for economy, along with the chief executives of Scottish Enterprise and Highlands and Islands Enterprise, constantly keeps the situation under review, taking into account the current economic conditions and considering on an on-going basis where, geographically, it should focus its attention and resources and what further opportunities are offered by the weak pound, in particular. I can provide an assurance that the Government and SDI are working in collaboration in that regard. We will try to ensure that whatever we do with ministerial visits reinforces the same position and messages that are coming from SDI.
I should explain why I got a call from Iraq. The people at the embassy in Baghdad, who had been in touch with Scottish Enterprise, said that they were utterly frustrated at its lack of interest. I hope that that is not the case generally, as we need to maximise trade and development opportunities this year wherever we can.
You can ask, but I do not know whether I can tell you the answer. If it is okay with the convener, I would be much more comfortable asking Mr Swinney to respond on that matter in more detail. Perhaps Deborah Smith wishes to say something.
That continues to be the responsibility of SDI, and we would expect any visit by the First Minister to reinforce that point. I cannot give any more detail on that at the moment either.
My final question—
There are always three.
There are—luckily, my third question is not in two parts.
That is one of the specific fields of excellence in Scotland in which we feel that we can engage with China, and work on it is on-going. It is interesting in relation to research and technology of all types. Anne Glover, who I think is the chief scientist—
The chief scientific adviser.
That is her official title. She has had meetings on that matter.
I am glad that the minister mentioned that we are trying to fit in with the Chinese plan, because there is no good in having our own ideas if we are not working with the Chinese. We need to have a three-plan fit involving the UK Government too, so that is a great benefit. Alex Neil mentioned the economic downturn, which could give us opportunities—we should always turn threats into opportunities.
There are a couple of issues around that. I noticed that there has been some discussion from those who have given evidence to the committee about how there is now—when I say "now", I mean over the past decade, rather than over the past year and a half—much more of a focus on business in relationships with China. Previously, many of the relations were cultural, and some concern was expressed that that was not always hugely useful. If there is a focus on business and awareness, however, cultural activity can be used to increase that awareness as long as it is not all carried out in a vacuum.
Is that website also in Chinese?
The site has been built specifically for Chinese users. It was built by Civic Computing in partnership with us, but when someone goes into it, they are a Chinese user because it is in Chinese. It will host homecoming and the VisitScotland websites, too. We use every opportunity to direct people to that site.
Some of you might have picked up on concerns about the difficulties with getting visas that are being faced by potential visitors from China. That is a UK issue and work is being done to deal with it.
Are VisitScotland and tourism in Scotland in general aware of the opportunities that are presented by China?
VisitScotland is heading that up. When we respond to the committee about various issues that are raised during this meeting, it might be useful if we ask VisitScotland to give the committee a direct update about how it raises awareness here, as well as in China.
That would be quite helpful.
The plan contains that. Some staff changes have been made in our international projects on Scotland's international image, but we are now working with them to get a clear brand for China. We are thinking about our target audience—for example, is it made up of friends, the families of people who are studying here, or young people? During the next few months, we will develop a plan that is tailored for China on communications specifically.
That is an on-going piece of work.
Yes.
I was interested in the issue that Ted Brocklebank raised about the focus on Shandong. Could you elaborate on the extent to which the focus is on Shandong as opposed to the rest of the country? Is the focus very tightly on Shandong, or is there a broader interest in the rest of the country?
Again, I will ask Fiona McLauchlan to speak about the details. We are continuing to engage with Shandong province, mainly in the education sector, but that should not preclude anything else. Fiona McLauchlan may have some thoughts on proportionality, from when Fiona Hyslop was in China on education business, for example.
Fiona Hyslop travelled down to Shandong. It is safe to say that education is the strongest area that we have worked on with Shandong, although I will defer to Deborah Smith on that.
I agree with that.
I will give an example. We made contact with the vice-mayor of Weifang, which is one of the big cities in Shandong, and recently brought over two teachers from that city, who delivered a kite festival for us here. Some 1,000 pupils in Scotland got the opportunity to build kites. We based that around the Confucius classrooms, which meant that even when the teachers had gone back to China, there was wider, on-going work for those classrooms to do on understanding the language and, in particular, on understanding Chinese culture.
If the focus in Shandong is mainly on education, what are the issues, criteria and areas of focus in the plan for the rest of the country? How much of your time or the effort that is going into the China plan is focused on Shandong and how much is focused on the rest of the country?
We cannot give an estimate of that, as different agencies are leading on each element of the plan. There will be X per cent on education and something different on tourism, for example.
From memory, I think that the tenure of the current first secretary for Scottish affairs at the British embassy in Beijing is probably reaching its conclusion. I am talking about the post rather than the individual. Has thought been given to continuing the post? Will there be any changes?
I will let Deborah Smith speak about the details, but my understanding is that Lucy Watkins has been in that post for around three years. She is on secondment from the British Council and, obviously, we are aware that the tenure will end at some point. We are carefully considering how we can continue such engagement with China. Deborah Smith may have an update on that.
I will speak about the post rather than the individual. Subject to the views of ministers, I manage the post in Beijing. It is clear to us from the feedback that we receive from stakeholders that its existence is invaluable. We will need to review it when the current post holder's tenure ends and ensure that it is at the right level and that we identify the exact skills that we need to ensure that it continues. Given our increasingly close relationship with Scottish Development International, we will need to think about how it will work in the future. From my perspective, it is clear that we need to have that presence in China, although the matter is subject to ministerial views.
You may remember that we carried out a similar review of the North American post. We considered how it could be used to best advantage for our operations in North America. We will have a similar review of the China post.
My final question follows up on Jim Hume's theme of tourism. From memory, I think that the distinctive thing about the Chinese tourist was that they wanted to know the cost of a tour before they left China. They wanted to know exactly what would be included, right down to every last bottle, cup or glass of water that they might drink. Obviously, that is not necessarily how tourism services in Scotland have traditionally been delivered. How much progress has been made in encouraging the Scottish tourism industry to think along such lines and to make strategic partnerships across the sector in order to accommodate Chinese visitors when they begin to come?
That is an interesting question. Specifics should be in the update that we will request from VisitScotland. The necessity of having Chinese language signage in high-profile places, for example, came across to me quite strongly in various meetings with Madam Tan Xiutian, and that matter is being looked at quite closely. One of the good-news stories is that we now have Mandarin-speaking Scottish tourist guides. I cannot remember off the top of my head how many there are, but I think that there are a dozen or so.
There are four.
Four guides have finished the course and more are going to do it. That is a huge benefit. The tourism industry is addressing some of the issues because it has taken on board the potential for greater numbers of tourists coming from China.
We have heard evidence from VisitScotland. Part of the issue is how the Government wants to promote the issue, so governmental or ministerial input to the feedback would be helpful.
I ask Fiona McLauchlan to speak about that, as she has more information.
The China plan has a tourism objective. We have set up a group that involves VisitScotland, the Scottish Tourism Forum and other organisations that are working in China. Dave Valentine from Angus Council is also a member. The group is considering how we can welcome Chinese visitors and whether we need specific measures that the Chinese visitor would expect. That comes down to matters such as providing a kettle in their room, because Chinese people like to make their own food. We are considering whether small to medium-sized businesses need to be geared up for Chinese visitors. For example, should people in those businesses be able to speak a few words of Mandarin? In the next few months, we will build a sort of Chinese toolkit with our partners and consider how that will be used by small and medium-sized businesses.
At the risk of labouring the point, we have had specific evidence suggesting that an awareness-raising campaign in the Chinese market is needed, and that we should get beyond VisitScotland and assist individual proprietors and visitor attractions in the industry to develop material for speakers of Mandarin and Cantonese. Obviously, that will need Government support, so that people can convert leaflets or websites into those languages. I presume that that can be considered.
We are leading the group that I mentioned, so the Government will support its work.
I turn briefly to a related but discrete issue. The minister referred to the evidence that we have received about the value of local twinning links with parts of China. In the plan, it has been decided, correctly, that we should continue to encourage the development of local twinning arrangements. Do you have a view on the benefit of those arrangements? Does your Government plan to assist local authorities in establishing new twinning arrangements?
There is benefit in twinning—that came through clearly in some of the evidence that was given. Our strategy on international work and the China plan are clear that the team Scotland approach is important. Local authorities are part of team Scotland, so if we can assist in any way in formulating such partnerships, we will. The benefit that can be gained from them is not just for the specific local authority or town that twins but for Scotland as a whole. If, through our various stakeholder groups, we become aware of engagement with China anywhere in the country, other members of the stakeholder group, or the Government, may be able to add value. We should always be aware of that possible greater benefit.
I will add an example of the way in which Government can facilitate the process. Late last year, Dave Valentine from Angus Council and I jointly chaired a meeting of several local authorities—with representatives of the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities present—to discuss local authorities' relationships with China and how those can be spread out to involve other local authorities. Sometimes, local authorities have twinning approaches that they cannot pursue or which are not appropriate. We discussed how we can help them to share information and to pass on such approaches to other authorities. We also considered how we can help local authorities, if they are geographically close and have joint interests in particular themes, to make joint approaches to Chinese regions. Because of the size of our local authorities, it might be more effective if a few of them pooled their ideas.
I would like to raise an issue that I have raised with other witnesses who have given evidence to the committee: human rights. I was pleased to see that paragraph 14 of the China plan says that ministers will raise concerns about human rights in China. How has the Scottish Government raised such issues? Can you outline some of the specific concerns that have been raised?
It is quite clear to all ministers that such issues will be raised in any engagement that they have with China—whether in meetings that are held here with the consul general, the ambassador or visitors or in meetings that take place in China. The First Minister raises issues with the consul general.
I cannot remember who said it but, if I remember correctly, it was suggested that China preferred to deal with such issues discreetly, without anyone being too in your face. Is the Scottish Government happy with such mechanisms for raising these issues?
It is right for someone who is in the privileged position of heading up, in some small way, some kind of international diplomacy to have regard for the differing culture of the people with whom they are dealing. It is also right to acknowledge that our opinion of the most effective way of doing things might not be the opinion of the opposing culture.
You mentioned our exchanges with business organisations at our previous meeting. When taking evidence not from them but from the group of educationists from whom we heard two weeks before that, I sensed that there was a degree of reluctance to engage with the human rights agenda—not because people do not regard it as important but because they appreciate and understand the difficulties that are involved in doing so. Nonetheless, your plan states that the Government will encourage organisations to engage with the issue of human rights in China. How will the Government facilitate such engagement?
We will do so where that is appropriate. We are not in a position to issue instructions to anyone who happens to work in China. However, if Mr Mather went out to China with a business delegation, through SDI, he would raise the issue of human rights, as Fiona Hyslop did when she was in China last year. We will always encourage organisations to engage with the issue; the Parliament openly encourages such engagement anywhere in the world. It is generally known that Scotland believes in human rights and will raise the issue. We will encourage organisations to do that, where appropriate and where we are involved.
It is useful to get that on the record.
Deborah Smith is anxious to add to what has been said.
I can provide a practical example of how we can encourage engagement with human rights issues. When most of our public bodies visit China, especially when they have meetings with the Government, Lucy Watkins, our first secretary in Beijing, is involved. She has long experience of working in China and knows what is culturally appropriate. She is in a position to advise organisations on how best to raise human rights issues in the context of meetings with the Chinese Government.
The trouble with being the last person to ask questions is that most questions have been asked already. You answered Charlie Gordon's question about twinning, which was the main issue that interested me. I will make a couple of brief comments and one request for information. Notwithstanding the issues that have been raised today, we have received a positive response to the Government's China plan from stakeholders. However, when we asked how small and medium-sized businesses can become aware of business opportunities in China, we were told that that is easy for large companies such as Arup Scotland, which has a long tradition in China, and for companies that have Scottish Enterprise accounts or are known to the Government and its agencies, which are more aware of such opportunities. How can awareness be passed on to small and medium-sized businesses? The question was not sufficiently well answered when we first asked it; can it be addressed in the response that you will obtain from John Swinney and Jim Mather?
The China-Britain Business Council and the Scottish Council for Development and Industry are charged with dealing with that end of the market. We will look at what they are doing, with SDI, and include that information in our response. The issue that Keith Brown raises ties in with some of Alex Neil's questions.
A mentoring scheme was proposed. David Valentine from Angus Council suggested that large companies could mentor SMEs. We would welcome feedback on that point, which is still outstanding.
The suggestion is interesting, as many big companies that have operated in China for some time use smaller companies as subcontractors and suppliers. We can ask whether the SCDI or the CBBC has mentoring schemes in place or plans to formulate them.
Another issue that we have not covered this morning was raised in evidence by Scottish Colleges International. SCI advised us that Scottish colleges are not recognised by the Chinese Government, which makes it difficult for them to get a foothold in China. The colleges believe that they could be assisted by Government support and intervention. I know that the issue does not fall within your portfolio, but are there ways in which the Scottish colleges could be assisted?
Fiona Hyslop's people very much picked up on that from the evidence. I will ask Fiona McLauchlan to say a few words on the issue because she co-ordinates the different portfolios that are involved. However, perhaps a fuller response from the education portfolio would be useful.
Education is not my specialist area, but I will pick up on the convener's point. I sat through the evidence session in which SCI stated that the colleges were not on the bona fide lists. Higher education policy colleagues have that matter firmly on their radar and are doing everything that they can to assist colleges to get on the lists. In addressing the issue, they are considering providing a letter of confirmation to the Chinese Government.
I have a small question on education. Obviously, one of your key objectives is to get more and more young Scots to learn Chinese and become aware of Chinese customs and so on. Annex 1 to the refreshed China plan, which sets out the objectives and targets, shows that no pupils in Scotland studied Chinese in the baseline year of 2006 but eight pupils did so in 2007. On the face of it, that does not seem to be a huge number. Are there better figures for 2008?
We will review the situation annually. We must ensure that targets are realistic. The Confucius institute opened only at the end of 2007, so we must be realistic about how the work moves forward. I will ask Fiona McLauchlan to tell you about the numbers of schools involved—there are quite a few in different local authority areas. In addition, various local authorities have taken advantage of the British Council scheme to bring over teachers of foreign languages.
We have just had four teachers qualify in Mandarin, so we are starting from a low base, but we hope to increase the numbers. We already have language assistants for Chinese in schools and, with the establishment of the Confucius classrooms—there will be eight hubs around Scotland—we will look to have more qualified teachers. Our Scottish Qualifications Authority Mandarin qualification was introduced only this year, so we expect the number of pupils taking it to increase. We are looking to have a higher in Mandarin in place by August. There will therefore be a bigger take-up, which will require an increase in the number of qualified teachers.
Annex 1 does not have a figure for pupils studying Chinese in 2008. It states that there were eight such pupils in 2007. Do we have a figure for last year?
Not yet. We did not have our qualification in place at that time. The language teaching was probably done in an informal way through language assistants.
That is interesting.
Fiona McLauchlan advises me that that is the most recent figure available, but we will confirm it for you straight from the education portfolio.
Thank you for coming this morning. You will be aware that you are the last witness on our list before we conclude our inquiry and produce our report on the China plan. I mention that because it would be helpful for us to have speedy responses on the outstanding issues from the other departments involved, so that we can include them in our report. Perhaps you could impress that on those departments.
Deborah Smith will ensure that that happens. We look forward to reading the committee's report. I hope that it can inform our thinking about how we move forward with the China plan.