Skip to main content

Language: English / Gàidhlig

Loading…
Chamber and committees

Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 12 Mar 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, March 12, 2002


Contents


Budget Process 2003-04

The Convener:

Item 4 on the agenda is the budget process for 2003-04. The committee has a report from Frank McAveety, which provides further information on areas of spending that the committee identified at its meeting on 26 February. The report is essentially for the information of members. It will assist the committee when it considers the Executive's annual expenditure review in April. Are there questions or comments on the report?

Mr Monteith:

I thank Frank McAveety and the clerks for their excellent work in producing the report so quickly and in such detail. I draw the committee's attention to paragraph 2.2 on page 7 of the report. On the ring fencing or earmarking of funds, it states:

"It is worth noting that COSLA estimated, in evidence to the Local Government committee of the Parliament, that ‘almost 30% of local authority funding from the Scottish Executive is either ring-fenced or centrally directed'. It may therefore be worthwhile for the committee to explore further the issue of ring-fencing during the process of evidence-gathering into the budget process."

I did not need to read out that entire paragraph, but I thought that if I did everyone could catch up. I would certainly like the committee to take up that suggestion and look further into ring fencing when we take evidence.

Michael Russell:

That is a good point. I commend the report, which addresses the major issues. The reporter has done a good job—I am sure that it is all his own work. The issue of ring fencing is important, as is the matter of the excellence fund allocations. A related matter is the difficulty that schools regularly report that they face arising from the fact that various pots of money come to them in various ways at various times. The situation is such that there is almost no such thing as a school budget but instead lots of little budgets that must be juggled. I have been told again and again that schools' ability to plan is diminished considerably because they do not know what resources will be available to them at any given time and because they have to make special arrangements in special budgets. Under the excellence fund, the division of some of the grants into categories such as salaries and travel means that the money is not used effectively. In the long term, ring fencing affects schools' ability to plan ahead, particularly given the substantial level of devolved management in schools. We should think about that as we gather evidence and talk to head teachers about the difficulties that they face in that regard.

Paragraph 3.2 points out the difficulties that are faced in relation to Gaelic and the fact that, in real terms, the funding for the language is not increasing. Many people will be surprised by that and will want to discuss it. We should inquire into the matter more closely, particularly as it affects Gaelic-medium education.

A number of issues arise in relation to the allocation of money to the arts. The fact that Scottish Opera accounts for more than half the total allocation of grant and the issues surrounding the allocation of money to Scottish Ballet and the other national companies will require some examination and should be part of our discussions, as should the allocation of money to the national institutions. In real terms, the allocation of money to the National Library of Scotland has declined at a time when demands on its services are increasing in many ways.

Mr Monteith:

The document shows how the national institutions are performing and there is useful information on the funds that are coming from the Executive and elsewhere.

I am pretty certain—because I am sure that I have contributed—that the National Gallery of Scotland raises money by private subscription to support purchases. However, that does not appear to be clearly marked in the budget document. Shadow organisations, charitable organisations or trust organisations that are part of the fundraising process for the purchase of paintings, sculptures, archives and artefacts are an important factor in the institutions' financial operation, but they do not seem to show up in the budget figures. The same might be the case with the national companies. Although the budget is about the Executive's spending, it would be useful for us to have a fuller picture of the money that is available to the national institutions and companies. We need to know whether we should take account of any money that does not show up in the budget document.

Mr McAveety:

I thank committee members for those questions. Following the good work that was done by Arthur Midwinter and Stephen Herbert, the clerks and I tried to organise the information under the key points in the executive summary. Any elegance that the report might have was added at that point.

Two or three areas have been thrown up for discussion. One issue is the sustainability of arts organisations and whether their continual grant requests match up with wider marketing strategies. That subject has come up in submissions and in other reports. A second issue, which Mike Russell mentioned, is the commitment and support for Gaelic education. That might be worth exploring in further detail. The report may be a bit lengthy, but it could help us to get a clearer picture.

Ian Jenkins:

I thank Frank McAveety and his partners for the report, which provides details about the global sums for special educational needs that are provided through specific grants and through local authority grant-aided expenditure. Questions need to be asked about how the money is distributed. Does the money follow the youngster to the responsible local authority or does the extra money come only through a formula that does not reflect the needs of individual pupils and authorities? How is SEN provision assessed? How much money is spent? Who decides how much is spent? On what basis are the allocations made? We need to probe those questions a wee bit further.

Jackie Baillie:

I agree with Mike Russell that we need to seek clarification on ring fencing. My local education authority has also told me that it has difficulties juggling pots of money that cannot be connected. It would be useful to examine the flexibility of different funding streams.

In the past, comment has been made about the Executive not providing information on outputs, but we seem to be focusing on budgets and on how much is spent. However, I am interested in teasing out how effective sure start Scotland is in generating outputs. There are rumours that local authorities differ in their use of that funding and that the money may not be used for the purpose intended. I am keen to look at that.

Those comments are equally applicable across the board. For example, I would like clarification on whether the real-terms decline in funding for pre-five provision will have an impact on the expected outputs. I am conscious that next year's funding for pre-five provision has been transferred to GAE. Will the consequences of that decline be passed on to local government?

The Convener:

I would like to tease out how extra money for rural areas is allocated and spent, which is an issue that came out of our report on our inquiry into Scottish Borders Council. It appeared that money that was allocated to the council for extra nursery teachers might have been used for other purposes. We also need to try to grasp how the rural dimension is factored into the funding of education budgets. Over the past year, that aspect of our work has been a source of concern both to local people and to the committee.

Another factor that needs to be taken into consideration is the impact of school transport on rural education budgets.

The Convener:

Yes, but my point is that there are large rural areas that receive no additional funding. In my constituency, for example, 80 per cent of the local authority's landmass is considered to be rural. However, even though the local authority faces all the additional problems of a rural area, it receives none of the additional funding. That issue continues to raise its head at every opportunity.

Mr Monteith:

The whole issue of how GAE relates to rural areas is worthy of examination. There is a school of thought that problems that local authorities in rural areas encounter are due to the large number of schools with small rolls. GAE is apparently calculated on the basis of the number of pupils and does not take into account the number of teachers. For that reason, those local authorities are disadvantaged. Another school of thought, which emanates from the Scottish Executive, says that that issue is taken into account when GAE is calculated and that the problem has its origins in the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities. The committee would do a useful public service if it pressed that issue when taking evidence and sought further explanation from COSLA and ministers on exactly what formula is in operation. Are there a number of formulae of which we need to be aware in order to give clear answers to the public, who are concerned about the issue?

Jackie Baillie:

That would help our understanding of the Executive's priorities, not just in the various areas and levels of funding, but in how it funds services in rural and urban areas where there are significant levels of disadvantage, to which budgets are effectively skewed. That dimension adds to the wider question of how we target both rurality and disadvantage.

Irene McGugan:

I might usefully have mentioned this issue before Frank McAveety made his excellent report, although it is still worth taking into account. Expenditure on social work training is forecast to rise by 20.5 per cent in real terms. That is a considerable increase and it would be useful to have some detail about it. It comes under the budget heading "Education and Children", so the money is presumably going into children's services. Does it relate to social work input into new community schools, to the development of sure start Scotland or to the new Scottish Commission for the Regulation of Care? There will be an additional requirement for the registration and inspection of child care facilities under the Regulation of Care (Scotland) Act 2001.

The recruitment and retention of social workers is a big problem. Is the increase in expenditure on social work training a means by which to address some aspects of that problem? It would be useful to find out the purpose for which that considerable—and welcome—amount of money is earmarked.

I am sure that Frank McAveety, Stephen Herbert, Susan Duffy, Ian Cowan and everyone else will be able get the relevant information for us in advance of the discussions on the budget in April.

Ian Jenkins:

I have one further point to raise. On page 7 of the report, under the heading "School rolls and School Buildings", the

"impact of declining schools rolls on budgets"

is mentioned. The report indicates that a declining school roll does not automatically mean a reduction in the education budget for that school. In some areas, the population is rising fast and the problem is the other way round: the required budget does not come through when the kids are there and the accommodation is required. There should be some investigation into the responsiveness of the budget-setting process to changing demands.

That concludes discussion on the issue and we move now into private session.

Meeting continued in private until 16:07.