Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 10 Dec 2002

Meeting date: Tuesday, December 10, 2002

Official Report 184KB pdf

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Protection of Children (Scotland) Bill: Stage 2

Item 2 is consideration of the Protection of Children (Scotland) Bill.

Given that the principal amendments, on which my amendments on today's marshalled list depend, were dealt with at our meeting last week, I seek the committee's leave to withdraw all the amendments that are in my name. I would prefer to do that rather than bore the committee by not moving each amendment individually. The problem is not that doing that would be a bore, but I am sure that it would be more efficient for me to withdraw all the amendments, if I am at liberty to do so. I thought that my amendments were right, but the committee seemed otherwise minded.

The advice that I have received is that the amendments cannot be withdrawn at this stage but must be not moved. Unfortunately, we will need to go through the process of asking the question and not moving, but I thank Michael Russell for that clarification.

I am always happy to help the committee.

Rather than bore members with my two-page script on how we will deal with amendments, I refer members to the Official Report.

Schedule 1

Offences against a child

Amendment 19 is in a group on its own.

Picking up on the principle that the committee appears to have adopted today, I will attempt not to bore anyone with a long speech on what is a fairly straightforward amendment. Suffice it to say, amendment 19 corrects an error in the bill. The Sexual Offences (Amendment) Act 2000 lowered the age of consent for homosexual acts from 18 to 16. Amendment 19 seeks to correct that error in the bill.

I move amendment 19.

Amendment 19 agreed to.

Schedule 1, as amended, agreed to.

Section 10—Offences relating to work in a child care position

Amendment 75 not moved.

Section 10 agreed to.

Section 11 agreed to.

After section 11

Amendment 93 is in a group on its own.

Amendment 93 forges an essential link between the list of persons unsuitable to work with children and the register of teachers that is maintained by the General Teaching Council for Scotland. A person on the list would not be entitled to GTCS registration. Anyone on the register of teachers would be removed if they were subsequently put on to the list. Amendment 93 will ensure that there is no doubt about the impact of listing on registration as a teacher.

I move amendment 93.

Amendment 93 agreed to.

Before section 12

Amendment 76 not moved.

Section 12—Applications for removal from list

Amendment 90 is grouped with amendments 91 and 92.

Amendments 90, 91 and 92 respond to concerns that were raised by the Sheriffs Association in the evidence that it submitted to the Justice 1 Committee. The issue was raised again during the stage 1 debate.

Section 12 of the bill allows individuals to apply for a review of their listing. That is in recognition of the fact that a person's circumstances can change to the extent that they no longer pose a threat to the safety of children. For example, a person might have successful treatment for drug or alcohol abuse. The general rule is that an application for a review will not be considered unless a period of 10 years—five years for a child—has elapsed since the person was listed.

However, the sheriff could grant leave for an application to be considered earlier, if they were satisfied that that was warranted by the change in circumstances. Amendments 90, 91 and 92 will allow a sheriff to grant an application for a review whenever the circumstances justified that. The amendments pick up from the comments that were made in the stage 1 debate.

I move amendment 90.

I welcome the Executive's recognition of the worries that were expressed in the Justice 1 Committee.

I take it that the minister does not want to make any further comments.

Everything has been said.

Amendment 90 agreed to.

Amendment 91 moved—[Cathy Jamieson]—and agreed to.

Amendments 77 to 79 not moved.

Amendment 92 moved—[Cathy Jamieson]—and agreed to.

Amendment 80 not moved.

Section 12, as amended, agreed to.

Section 13—Appeals: inclusion in list under section 5 or 6 etc

Amendments 81 and 82 not moved.

Amendment 20 is grouped with amendments 21 to 24. If amendment 20 is agreed to, amendment 83 will be pre-empted and therefore cannot be called.

Amendment 20 is a minor amendment that aims to correct a flaw in the bill. Section 1(3) provides for ministers to remove an individual from the list if they are satisfied that the individual should not have been included in the first place. It does not cover appeals against listing, which are provided for by section 12, but covers cases where, for example, there has been an administrative error or a case of mistaken identity.

Section 13(1)(b) allows for appeals to the sheriff when ministers do not remove individuals from the list under section 1(3). However, there is no need for that provision. Decisions to remove an individual from the list under section 1(3) will be based on factual information. Where an individual continues to contest the facts, an appeal under section 13(1)(a) will be appropriate. I hope that that clarifies the position.

I move amendment 20.

Amendment 20 agreed to.

Amendment 84 not moved.

Amendments 21 to 24 moved—[Cathy Jamieson]—and agreed to.

Amendments 85 and 86 not moved.

Section 13, as amended, agreed to.

Section 14 agreed to.

Section 15—Meaning of "disqualified from working with children"

Amendment 87 not moved.

Section 15 agreed to.

Section 16—Interpretation

Amendment 25 moved—[Irene McGugan]—and agreed to.

Amendment 26 moved—[Cathy Jamieson]—and agreed to.

Amendment 88 not moved.

Amendment 27 moved—[Irene McGugan]—and agreed to.

Amendment 94 is in a group on its own.

Because the duty to make referrals to the list has been extended to all organisations, there is no longer any need to define child care organisations. The amendments that were required to remove that definition were debated last week as part of the group of amendments that extended the duty. However, there was an oversight and amendment 94 now deletes a redundant subsection.

I move amendment 94.

Amendment 94 agreed to.

Section 16, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule 2

Child care positions

Amendment 28 is in a group on its own.

For the purposes of the bill, all members of a local authority are currently deemed to be in a child care position. However, on reflection, we now consider the definition to be too wide. Amendment 28 means that only members who are involved in the provision of children's services will be considered to be in a child care position.

I move amendment 28.

I would be grateful for some clarification on this matter. My local authority has raised concerns about janitorial staff and staff in direct labour organisations who might not necessarily be employed by a local authority's employment committee but who might be in positions of trust with children and young people. The amendment might remove those people from the scope of the bill.

I am not aware that amendment 28 would remove responsibility from janitorial staff who might come into contact with children in, for example, school situations. Clearly, a number of checks would require to be made. However, I will defer to my colleagues to ensure that that is the position, because what you suggest is certainly not the intention behind the amendment.

Janitorial staff will be covered by schedule 2. Amendment 28 deals with elected members of local authorities.

Amendment 28 agreed to.

Schedule 2, as amended, agreed to.

Section 17—Notices

I call Mike Russell to move amendment 89, which has already been debated with amendment 44.

As this is the final amendment, I am tempted to move it. However, I will not do so.

Amendment 89 not moved.

Section 17 agreed to.

Sections 18 to 20 agreed to.

Long title agreed to.

That ends the stage 2 consideration of the bill. I thank the committee, officials and the minister for their time.

Has a date been set for stage 3?

I am not aware that any date has been set for stage 3. We certainly completed our stage 2 consideration more quickly than we were expected to.

Meeting closed at 15:06.