Enterprise and Culture Committee, 08 Sep 2005

Meeting date: Thursday, September 8, 2005

Official Report 247KB pdf

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St Andrew's Day Bank Holiday (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1

Item 2 on our agenda is the St Andrew's Day Bank Holiday (Scotland) Bill. As our witnesses take their seats, I ask Margaret Jamieson and Dennis Canavan whether they have any interests to declare.

I have registered all my interests but it would not go amiss to say to the committee that I am an unpaid director of East Ayrshire Employment Initiative.

I am the member in charge of the bill; that is the only interest that I have to declare.

With the committee's agreement, I intend to invite Dennis Canavan to participate fully in our witness sessions, as if he were a full member of the committee. Do members agree to that?

Members indicated agreement.

I welcome Fiona Moriarty, who is policy manager for the Scottish Retail Consortium; Paul Jennings, who is vice-chair of the Association of Scottish Visitor Attractions; and Dave Moxham from the Scottish Trades Union Congress.

Do you want to say a few words before we go into questions? Obviously, you have circulated papers, but you are most welcome to say a word or two before we kick off the questions.

Do you want me to kick off?

Ladies first.

I have a small point of clarification. There was a mistake about my title: I am not the policy manager but the director of the Scottish Retail Consortium.

I will make a few brief opening comments on who we are as an organisation and why we support the bill. The Scottish Retail Consortium is a retail trade association that represents roughly 26,000 retailers—the vast majority of retailers in Scotland—who employ one in 10 of the workforce. In 2002, Scottish retail turnover was close to £19 billion.

I have consulted our members extensively and the vast majority support the bill for two key reasons. They feel that a St Andrew's day holiday would not only provide a great opportunity to reflect on and celebrate our national identity, but boost retail trade and tourism. I have many more points about the value that a St Andrew's day holiday would generate for the Scottish economy and about questions that members may have on implementing the bill and dealing with staff in relation to bank holidays. However, I am happy to take questions on those matters later.

The Association of Scottish Visitor Attractions represents the interests of more than 400 attractions across Scotland. I believe that I represent the industry in its entirety at this meeting because I also chair a destination marketing company called Destination Dundee and in my day job I am the chief executive of a tourism business in Dundee.

I have consulted widely on the bill and it is apparent to me, especially as an operator, that bank holidays have a significant impact on visitor attractions in particular and, by association, other tourism businesses. I am keen to discuss whether the proposed bank holiday would fall on 30 November or on the nearest Friday or Monday. That issue has particular significance for the tourism sector because, if the holiday fell in a way that extended a weekend, it would encourage people to travel and tourists to use Scotland's wide accommodation base.

The timing of the proposed bank holiday is excellent from the industry's perspective. We are heavily focused on the summer periods and it strikes me and others that having a bank holiday at the end of November would set up the opportunity to kick-start the festive season. In addition, in relation to encouraging national pride, it would also give the opportunity to have a host of festivals and associated activities.

We believe that the creation of an additional bank holiday would have a positive impact on the Scottish tourism sector, which has ambitious growth targets over the next 10 years. It would also be an important opportunity to extend the seasonal offering.

I represent the Scottish Trades Union Congress and its 43 affiliated trade unions, whose views on the issue I think I can confidently say I represent.

We have looked at three areas of the proposal. First, there is the positive effect that the proposed bank or public holiday would have on the hard-working Scottish workforce, particularly given the fact that we do not do too well just now compared with the number of public holidays in the rest of Europe. Secondly, there is the positive opportunity that a St Andrew's day holiday would provide for the celebration of Scotland's culture and history. I will go on, if asked, to say something about how we think that that culture should be celebrated. Thirdly, we looked at the issue in practical terms and we agree with the whole panel, I think, in favouring having the holiday on the day closest to 30 November that would extend a weekend. We prefer a Monday, with Friday being an outside possibility.

Good afternoon. I have a couple of questions first for Fiona Moriarty and Paul Jennings, because I think that you are coming at the issue from a similar position. I see the logic in your submission that it would be good for both the retail and tourism industries to have an additional bank holiday, particularly in the run-up to Christmas when people are out spending more money and would perhaps take their families to visit tourist attractions. However, presumably you would not be giving your employees a holiday on that day because they would have to work to keep the visitor attractions and shops open. Have you canvassed the various employers that you represent to find out what their views are on giving their employees an additional holiday to compensate them for the fact that they will not have that day off?

I said that the vast majority of our members are supportive and so they are. There are some reservations, however, and some of our members have said that they would prefer it if a St Andrew's day holiday were to replace an existing bank holiday. Nonetheless, those members are in the minority and their concerns revolve around an imbalance between people living in different parts of the United Kingdom managing different entitlements and the additional costs in relation to premium payments. I have to stress that I have spoken to a lot of my members on the issue and the bottom line is that the benefits would outweigh any additional costs or problems associated with having an additional bank holiday.

In my opening statement, I should have said that we would like the additional holiday to be on a Monday, in order to maximise benefit. We envisage that the holiday would be like any other bank holiday, which retailers deal with in a number of ways, such as offering time off in lieu, time and a half or double-time rates of pay or a combination of those various types of entitlement.

What Fiona Moriarty has said also applies to how most operators in the tourism sector would deal with the extra holiday. Of course, the tourism industry is dominated by small and medium-sized enterprises, so we need to take proper cognisance of the potential impact on employment rights and staffing. However, the day falls at what is traditionally one of the quieter periods of the year, so I think that the holiday could have a positive impact on staffing rather than a negative one. As an employer operating something that might be classed as a microbusiness rather than an SME, we would certainly embrace the proposal, as we feel that the benefits would far outweigh any downside.

My second question is to Dave Moxham. I can quite understand that the STUC would favour any additional holiday, regardless of when it fell. However, it is quite clear that Dennis Canavan's bill is a permissive piece of legislation. As far as I can see, it does not create a holiday—I am not sure that that would be legally competent, although I am sure that Dennis Canavan will expand on that later—but, instead, allows the opportunity for a holiday to be taken.

The STUC's submission says:

"It would however be important, following a positive decision of the Scottish Parliament that all available levers were used to ensure that private, public and third sector employers granted the holiday as an additional day's leave."

Would you expand on that? What levers are you referring to?

I should refer to the fact that the manifesto of the Westminster Government outlines the intention to ensure that the 20 days' leave to which employees are currently entitled are additional to, rather than inclusive of, bank holidays. That would go some way towards ironing out the anomaly that currently exists.

You are right to ask the question that you do, because we are aware that the levers differ. The levers in the public sector are, obviously, clearer than they are in the private sector. We would be looking to the Scottish Executive to provide strong encouragement. The question of enforcement without legislation from Westminster is a problem that would be on-going until that legislation was put in place.

If the bill were passed, you would hope that—despite the fact that it would not be legally obliged to do so—the Scottish Executive would grant a holiday to its employees and encourage other public sector employers to do the same.

Absolutely.

Of course, that is what we do in the Scottish Parliament.

I note the points that all of you have made in your submissions and, like Murdo Fraser, I see where you are coming from. I want to put to you some points that have been made by others.

One point relates to the business about a bank holiday not necessarily being a public holiday. At present, there are discrepancies between the situation in Scotland and the situation in England, where public holidays and bank holidays tend to coincide. Could you comment on your perception of that issue and its impact on businesses and individuals?

As to how retailers would deal with that in Scotland, a person would have their annual leave entitlement as per their contract. On top of that, the majority of retailers will give an additional eight days. If the bill were passed, that would be an additional nine days. Scotland is unique in that, in pretty much every month from the beginning of March all the way through to September, there is at least one public or town holiday in any town or city the length and breadth of the country. There is a confusing scenario anyway with public holidays, bank holidays, town days and Victoria day, but retailers just get on with it. They start debates with their employees at the beginning of any year, they agree which days are statutory holidays and they agree additional entitlement over and above that as well as compensation in lieu of working on public or bank holidays.

I will press you on that before I invite the others to comment. You are basically saying that, as long as there is an extra holiday and an opportunity for retail to cash in on that, it does not matter when it is. It is not necessarily relevant that the proposed holiday is on St Andrew's day; the issue is more that a holiday would give an increased opportunity.

Any bank holiday is good, as the figures in our submission show. We are particularly excited by the idea of a St Andrew's day holiday, because of everything that we could wrap around it. It could kick-start the Christmas shopping season. It could also be fantastic in relation to the synergy between retail and tourism for city breaks. It would be the right holiday sending the right message at the right time of the year.

But only as long as it is on that day.

Our preference is that it should be on the last Monday of November so that it becomes part of the national psyche and so that we all know that St Andrew's day is celebrated on the last Monday in November.

Do the others want to comment?

Again, I agree with Fiona Moriarty. Perhaps that is something to do with the similarity between our sectors—there is certainly some crossover.

I had a meeting yesterday with the director of Dundee Contemporary Arts and the Dundee Rep Theatre. We touched on the possibility of having a bank holiday on St Andrew's day and started to talk about how we might celebrate that. Running a science centre, we could celebrate the role that Scots have played in science, but, with the others, we could celebrate the role of Scots in the arts and theatre, too. The tourism sector is dominated by small businesses, but those business are entrepreneurial and so would seek to maximise the opportunities of having the bank holiday coincide with a chance to celebrate.

The proposal would probably have more impact if the day coincided with a public holiday, because that would increase the critical mass of tourists. Even without that, it would still have an economic benefit for the Scottish tourism industry.

I endorse the points made about the ability, for want of a better term, to market St Andrew's day as a holiday. Unlike most countries in Europe, we do not have a holiday—apart from the scattered ones that have been mentioned—between the end of September and 25 December. Apart from the fact that St Andrew's day is a good day in itself, it falls in a good period in which to have a holiday for a range of reasons.

My second question is on the point in the Committee of Scottish Clearing Bankers submission that banking services would not necessarily be available to business on that day, which would mean that cheques might take longer to clear and that other cash facilities might not be available. Will you comment on that?

Not in any detail—I will leave that to Professor Munn. However, as long as our members had sufficient notice of when bank and public holidays fell, their business planning process would just kick in and their accounts departments would work around those set days as they would with bank holidays earlier in the year.

The tourism industry is used to dealing with bank holidays, so what you describe would not have a negative impact on tourism operators. The proliferation of cashpoints means that money would be readily available for tourists. We are used to dealing with bank holidays and another one would not cause the sector any problems at all.

Dave, I will tweak the question ever so slightly for you. The clearing banks raised the issue of the additional effort and allied cost of changing banks automated clearing system payments for salaries and so on. Could you comment on that?

Not with any certainty, because it is not my background. However, there are other occasions during the year when similar problems are dealt with and we are not aware of them causing inordinate difficulties. Given that we lag behind other successful European countries in the number of holidays that we have, we have to assume—without knowing the details—that the problems are surmountable.

In the STUC submission, the bill's explanatory note and elsewhere, references are made to work-life balance and general issues of improving our quality of life, addressing long hours and changing the working culture. I would like to explore that further, not with a series of specific questions, but by sharing some thoughts and asking you all to provide feedback.

Addressing those issues is a laudable objective, but I struggle to see how this one holiday would have a significant impact, particularly if it is not applied universally and does not become a school holiday. I would like you to share your thoughts on the importance of aligning school holidays with the St Andrew's day holiday and on how that might be done.

I do not have children and I am unfamiliar with when the school holidays are—I do not know whether St Andrew's day is near the mid-term break—so I am unable to comment on aligning school holidays. I do not know whether it is an option.

If St Andrew's day is made a holiday, that will take a while to bed down. There will be an organic process of growth year on year. We will be clear about what we are celebrating. There will be a snowball effect, similar to that experienced in Ireland with St Patrick's day, which 20 or 30 years ago was not celebrated with all the pomp and ceremony that we see now. On 17 March, Dublin, Galway and Cork are pretty much party towns. The issue is about growing the importance of St Andrew's day, which will not happen overnight. In time, as its importance grows, special days off for schoolchildren, for example, are likely to happen.

If the St Andrew's day holiday coincided with a school holiday, the impact of the day would be multiplied, especially because many visitor attractions are child oriented. At the meeting that I attended yesterday, a Scot said that they celebrated St Patrick's day more than they did St Andrew's day. That shows that there is an opportunity to build the momentum and significance of the day and in doing so build national pride, which should not be underestimated. In areas for which St Andrew has particular significance, such as Arbroath and Angus, the authorities might decide to grant a school holiday, which I encourage, if it is at all possible.

The STUC is responsible for introducing the issue of work-life balance, partly in anticipation of responses from some of our business colleagues, who will give evidence later. They suggest that the issue is about productivity and question whether any hours that are lost to the economy will be repaid in other ways.

We wanted to make it clear that, although no one day or piece of legislation can of itself sort out the long-hours culture and the large amount of pressure that parents and other carers are under in our society, the proposal can make a positive contribution. It recognises that people have a right to another day's holiday. Moreover, that holiday would sit in the period between September and December when people cannot have much expectation of many other holidays from work.

We believe that the proposal sends out a positive message and that there will be gains from adopting its general approach. The Federation of Small Businesses contends in its submission that Scots will have to show productivity gains before they get the holiday, but we believe that the relationship between employers and employees is more complicated with respect to the time that people are given at work to generate productivity.

The question about schools was well put. Many of our work-life balance assumptions are based on the hope—nay, the desire—that people will be able to spend their time with their families and will not have to worry about child care issues. I am not aware of what mechanisms might be necessary to effect the required change, but we are certainly in support of the proposal.

Does the STUC have any data on current choices and preferences? I recognise that the work-life balance is not simply about children, although parents find trying to be off work at the same time as the children to be a big issue. You are correct to say that there are no bank holidays between September and December, but there is of course the October week, when a great many parents want to try to be off. If they are to get extra time, they would probably like it to be then. Do you have any data about preferences for the future or about current practice in people's choices about when to take leave?

We do not have data on that, but anybody who inhabits a large city will notice that, during the October week and at other times of year, the city somewhat empties of cars—I can park outside my house during the October week, but can rarely do that at any other time of year. There is a raft of other important measures to achieve flexibility, but we do not think that they should be used as a counter-argument to the granting of a specific November holiday.

I have a supplementary to Christine May's question. Paul Jennings mentioned the number of cash machines that exist. How many of the businesses that Fiona Moriarty and Paul Jennings represent bank online? I bank online, and it seems possible to pay bills, pay in cheques and move money any day, even on a public or bank holiday.

The majority of our larger members would not bank online, although some of our small members would. When I say "small", I mean one-man or two-man band retailers. Traditional convenience stores and other smaller retailers, for example, might bank online. The FSB might be better placed to answer that question, given its membership base. The vast majority of our retailers would not do any banking online.

I am trying to get to the bottom of what we have been told in the written evidence. The banks are saying that transactions between banks would be delayed by one day. There are many reasons why the banks do not like the proposal.

I am sorry—I have perhaps misunderstood your question. I perceived your question as being about domestic banking online, with people logging on to their accounts. BACS and macro transactions would be affected, but Professor Munn is probably best placed to describe the sort of delays that would occur as a result of including the additional bank holiday.

I return to my original point. We manage eight other bank holidays throughout the year, and I really do not think that an additional bank holiday will rock the boat too much.

I have only one question to ask. As you are probably aware, there is widespread support in the country and in the Parliament for a St Andrew's day holiday, but the business community seems to be divided—some people in that community are in favour of it, some are against it and some are sceptical. Do you have any suggestions to make about how to persuade the sceptics and opponents to see the proposal not as a threat to business but as a great opportunity, particularly for the retail trade, tourism and the hospitality, leisure and recreation industries? How can they be persuaded that the celebration of St Andrew's day and the St Andrew's day holiday could mean a great boost to Scottish business and the Scottish economy and could help to promote Scotland internationally?

In respect of retail and tourism, it is a no-brainer. We have shown in our written evidence that an extra bank holiday to celebrate St Andrew's day would be worth an extra £39 million for one day's trading. The suggestion is sensible and we whole-heartedly support it.

On getting other business organisations on board, I suppose that the day would give them a platform from which express everything that is important and Scottish about their businesses and that they should consider the benefits rather than the costs. The costs of introducing an additional bank holiday have been explored in the submissions that I have seen to date, but there has been limited analysis of what the benefits could be. Perhaps there should be a more detailed debate about the benefits. I am sure that the Confederation of British Industry Scotland and the FSB will be more than happy to enter into that debate later.

I can see where concerns may have arisen 40 years ago, but Scotland's industry base is becoming much more service oriented than manufacturing oriented and most organisations in the service sector would encourage having the holiday, which could be a great opportunity, particularly given the time of year and its proximity to the festive period. I think that the argument is swinging in our favour. Tourism currently contributes £4 billion to the Scottish economy and VisitScotland's target is to increase that figure by 50 per cent over the next 10 years. Days such as St Andrew's day are an ideal opportunity that can encourage us to work towards such targets.

The STUC will do its small bit by organising the St Andrew's day rally on the Saturday that falls closest to 30 November. That will bring a significant number of people into Glasgow to celebrate Scotland's multicultural make-up.

In more general terms, the word "self-confidence" could be used. I see the potential holiday as a day that could deliver enhanced self-confidence to Scotland as a result of celebrating its culture, creation and everything that it has achieved. Exactly where things stack up cannot tangibly be written on the balance sheet, but if the Irish and other successful models are considered, there is little doubt that self-confidence matters. The holiday would be a positive addition to Scotland's self-confidence and therefore its long-term performance.

Some of the most compelling evidence that I read last night in the papers that the clerks provided was from individuals who live outwith Scotland. The evidence was emotional, but those people clearly set down why they thought that having a day that recognises our national identity is important. The 10 or 15 papers that hit home for me personally—as opposed to in my capacity as the representative of an organisation—were those in which people explained why it is so important to be proud to be Scottish, to celebrate our past and to look forward to the future. Those papers struck a chord with me.

The tourism market is becoming increasingly aggressive and new markets are coming online every day. Scotland has a great deal to be proud of, and wrapping that up in a day is a great opportunity that can send out a national as well as an important international message.

My question follows on quite nicely from those sentiments. This is an important opportunity for us in Scotland to say what we believe in. It is vital that the day falls as near as possible to 30 November so that we can emphasise what we are celebrating on that day. You have all suggested that it would be preferable to have it on the Monday following or closest to the 30th. How disruptive would it be to have it on the 30th every year?

I do not think that it would be particularly disruptive; it would just mean that we would not be able to capitalise on it as much as if it was held on the Friday or the Monday. Leaving aside people who live and work in Scotland and how they want to celebrate the day—I will let Paul Jennings comment on that because it is his area—and considering people who come to Scotland from other parts of the UK and further afield, most people would come for a long weekend that encompassed a Friday or a Monday, but they would be less inclined to go for a city break if the holiday fell on a Wednesday or Thursday, as all the entertainment, support and excitement would not be attached to their weekend. However, if the holiday fell at the weekend, people would come to see Scotland and to enjoy St Andrew's day and the festivities around it.

The most important market for Scottish tourism is the Scots. Where we can, we ought to encourage mobility. People will not travel to Scotland if the 30th were to fall on a Wednesday. Therefore, while there would be every likelihood that visits to attractions would increase through the local and day-trip market, the accommodation base would not benefit in the same way. From a Dundee perspective—I mentioned Destination Dundee earlier—we are very clear that our major targets will be in Scotland, because that is a key market for us.

The international tourism sector is becoming increasingly vulnerable, given the events that have happened in recent years. In that sense, the domestic market is becoming increasingly important as it will be more resilient when such events occur. It is therefore extremely important that the day should fall on or around a weekend.

It is our view—this is evidenced by people taking short holidays—that employees prefer to take a day or two that are next to the weekend. That seems fairly obvious.

I cannot provide evidence for this—it is only a feeling that I have—but I believe that business tends to handle more easily a day that sits next to the weekend rather than one in the middle of the week.

VisitScotland has moved away from marketing geography towards a portfolio approach, and many of those portfolios market themselves well to the Scots. Portfolios such as golf, genealogy and city breaks would benefit from the day being at a weekend.

I want to ask about the international dimension. One of the things about St Patrick's day is its impact, particularly in the United States, and the way in which it raises the profiles of Ireland and Irish products. There is another dimension, in the sense that another four or five countries have St Andrew as their patron saint—Greece is one example—

And Russia.

Yes. We have concentrated on the domestic benefits but is there not an international dimension from an enterprise and culture point of view?

Most definitely. Some of the figures that we have collected during the past few years on spending patterns and what non-UK tourists are spending their money on show that 80 per cent of those who come to Scotland will spend a substantial amount on traditional Scottish produce such as whiskies, cashmeres and arts and crafts. If we could cleverly wrap that up into something that represents St Andrew and everything Scottish, we could market the day in the same way that Bastille day is marketed in France or St Patrick's day is marketed in Ireland. If we were to do that, major capital could be made of the day.

The international market is very competitive and many of the new European countries have a geography that is similar to ours. If there is any competitive advantage that we can work with, we should be doing that.

There is a bigger story that needs to be told about Scotland of which many people around the world are not aware. There is a great opportunity to tell that story and make a compelling case for people to visit Scotland.

My ears pricked up when you mentioned Greece, convener. It is one of the very few countries that also does not have a holiday between September and December. Indeed, it is the only other European country whose workers work longer hours than people in the UK do. I see positive opportunities for Scotland to link up with Greece.

It is an obvious link-up—Greece staged the Olympics, of course.

I thank the witnesses for their evidence, which was extremely helpful.

I did not realise that, although Easter Monday is a holiday south of the border, it is not a bank holiday in Scotland. That said, 2 January is a bank holiday in Scotland but not south of the border, and Northern Ireland has 10 bank holidays, including St Patrick's day and the day that marks the battle of the Boyne. There is a wide variation in the number of holidays.

We need a political balance.

Some take one day and others take another one.

I welcome our second panel, which comprises Alan Mitchell, head of policy at the Confederation of British Industry Scotland, Professor Charles Munn, chief executive of the Chartered Institute of Bankers in Scotland, and Niall Stuart, parliamentary affairs officer with the Federation of Small Businesses in Scotland. I invite panel members to say a few words by way of introduction, after which we will move to questions.

The CBI represents businesses of all sizes and all sectors, including manufacturing, services and the retail sector. We understand the retail companies' perspective on an additional bank holiday.

We have consulted our membership twice on the issue: first when Dennis Canavan announced his proposal for the bill, and secondly when the committee invited us to submit evidence. On both occasions, the consensus was against the concept of an additional bank holiday.

Our members are not against the idea of celebrating St Andrew's day or of having a bank holiday that is timed to facilitate the celebration; they are against the concept of creating an additional bank holiday in order to do that.

I am at committee today to represent the Committee of Scottish Clearing Bankers, not the Chartered Institute of Bankers in Scotland. The Committee of Scottish Clearing Bankers has the Bank of Scotland, the Royal Bank of Scotland, the Clydesdale Bank and Lloyds TSB Scotland as its members.

In some ways, I wish that there was a cross-bench on which to sit this afternoon. As we said in our submission, we are not against the celebration of anything that enhances the international identity of Scotland or anything that contributes to the celebration of St Andrew and St Andrew's day. However, we have quite serious reservations about the concept of the celebration being a bank holiday.

The nature of a bank holiday has changed since I was a young bank clerk in Glasgow in the 1960s. In those days, the whole bank closed on a bank holiday and many other businesses also closed for the day. Very often, bank holidays occurred at the same time as a public holiday. There is a lot of confusion—or at least conflation of terms—in the papers that are in front of the committee. One of the previous speakers mentioned the contribution of people who live overseas. However, those people were referring to a national holiday, which may be thought of as something else again.

The Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 is the modern legislation that regulates what is and what is not a bank holiday and even allows banks to open on such days. The nature of the banking business has changed greatly since that legislation was passed, and it would now be impossible to close certain departments, such as internet banking, that customers expect to be available 24/7.

There is also a question about certain aspects of branch banking. The previous group of contributors said that shops would remain open and it appears that one of the great advantages of having a St Andrew's day holiday is that it would allow people to go shopping. Many of the banks feel that if shops have to open they would also have to open. Obviously, no decision has been made about that.

Some years ago, Scottish banks experienced some difficulties in their settlement business and in other areas, particularly because Scottish bank holidays are different to those in England. In order to introduce some conformity to the arrangement, parliamentary time was sought. That process began in 1987 and continued until 1996, by which point it was clear that parliamentary time would not be available—we have to remember that this was Westminster. The banks in Scotland then decided that their celebration of Scottish bank holidays should conform to practice in the rest of the UK, notwithstanding the fact that some of those days are not legally bank holidays in Scotland. For example, under the 1971 legislation, the first Monday in August is still legally a Scottish bank holiday; however, in order to conform to the rest of the UK, we celebrate it on the last Monday of the month.

As a result, the nature of a bank holiday is considerably different to what it used to be. It is not clear from the papers in front of us how the creation of a bank holiday would contribute to the celebration of St Andrew.

The FSB has no principled objection to a St Andrew's day public holiday. However, as our written submission makes clear, we would expect it to substitute for another public holiday. The Scottish Retail Consortium has said that having such a holiday would increase retail sales by £30 million a year. However, the bill's explanatory notes and the financial memorandum make it clear that the estimated cost of this proposal to the public sector alone is £42 million. We can only estimate the cost to the private sector, but I guess that it would be in the same region. As a result, we have to set the £80 million combined cost of the holiday to business and the public sector against the £32 million increase in retail sales. Because of the cost, we are opposed to an additional public holiday.

I realise that many tourism and retail businesses have spoken in favour of the holiday; however, after speaking to our members, I am clear that the majority of small businesses are against the introduction of an additional Scottish bank holiday.

Professor Munn, instead of arguing against the specific proposal, are you not arguing against the whole bank holiday system? After all, we already have eight bank holidays. It could be argued that, given the changes since 1971, we should not have bank holidays; instead, we should simply have public holidays. However, given that we are dealing with the status quo—which is that we already have a bank holiday system—the argument should centre on whether St Andrew's day should be another bank holiday, not on whether there should be a bank holiday system at all.

The whole bank holiday system has become confused and is confusing. I am not sure whether adding another bank holiday will lift any of that confusion.

It might apply some pressure for change.

The banks' position is that we are in the service sector of the economy and that our obligation to our customers is to provide them with the service that they need as and when they want it. That is what we are trying to do. If many of our customers decide to open on a supposed bank holiday, it is likely that the banks will open, which raises the question how any of that contributes to the celebration of St Andrew.

I will follow on from Alex Neil's comments. When I read the submission from the Committee of Scottish Clearing Bankers, I could not help but feel that it made the argument for having no bank holidays whatever. The reality is that, despite the fact that some automated telling machines may get a bit empty and folk might not be able to get a cheque cashed for another day, most people and businesses adapt their lives around bank holidays. I hear the point that if the shops are open, the banks feel that they are under pressure to open as well, but there are already bank holidays on which the banks are closed and the shops are open. I do not understand why there would be additional pressure on banks to open on the proposed holiday just because shops were open.

There would be additional pressure to open because that is what the customers want, and we are in the service sector of the economy.

At the moment, on some bank holidays, the shops are open, but the banks are closed. You have resisted the pressure to open until now, so why would that change?

As you say, people adapt to the circumstances. The question is why we would want to create another situation in which inconvenience was caused.

I turn to the CBI's submission. The final paragraph of the first page states:

"Advocates of the Bill argue that UK workers compare unfavourably to their EU counterparts in terms of holiday entitlement."

The submission goes on to state that other countries have a significantly higher level of unemployment, the implication being that extra holidays may contribute to the level of unemployment. Do you have evidence of that?

The list of the number of public holidays in European Union comparator countries is instructive. The countries whose totals are closest to those of Scotland and the UK, such as the Baltic states, Poland and Ireland, are the countries on which we seek to model our economic growth. I was not suggesting for a second that, by creating an extra day's bank holiday, we would automatically create X amount of unemployment, but the amount of holiday entitlement that we give the workforce is part of the overall labour market mix. If we get the wrong labour market mix, there is a chance that we will have higher unemployment. It is instructive to consider the EU countries that have the most public holidays: they are the larger economies in Europe and those that are in the greatest difficulty now.

Do you accept that there is no direct relationship between unemployment and the number of holidays that workers receive?

Clearly, there is no direct link between creating one more day's holiday and generating X amount of unemployment. However, if we add additional holidays at a time when many businesses have to cope with other pressures on labour markets, ultimately, there will come a point at which unemployment will come about as a consequence. I do not suggest that that could be pinned down exactly to a St Andrew's day bank holiday, because business competitiveness and the creation and displacement of jobs are complicated and it is hard to suggest that one thing connects to another. However, it is clear that the accumulation of inflexible labour market policies will lead to higher unemployment—we are seeing that in France and Germany.

I turn to the FSB submission, which contains a section on international comparisons that refers to the fact that productivity in Scotland is low compared to that in countries such as England, France and Germany. The submission states that, perhaps once Scottish workers reach the productivity levels of their European counterparts, they can expect to get an equivalent level of holidays. Is it the FSB's suggestion that we should deduct holidays until workers become more productive?

No, absolutely not. We wanted to debunk a myth. A constant comparison is made between the number of holidays that Scottish workers have and the number that other workers have. However, there is a series of correlations and no one really understands the causes and effects. Workers in the United States have a smaller holiday entitlement than British workers have, but they are more productive. However, French workers have a larger holiday entitlement, but are, again, more productive. Therefore, there are no clear links.

The other thing to say about international comparisons is that I am not sure whether they include local holidays. Most employees in Scotland have the working time regulation entitlement of 20 days holiday a year. They also receive eight bank or public holidays and many also receive two or three local holidays a year—for example, the Glasgow fair Monday or the September weekend. Again, that makes international comparisons difficult.

Do you have any evidence that providing an extra day's bank holiday will actually reduce productivity in Scotland?

It will probably not reduce productivity per hour, but I think that it is common sense to believe that one day less at work will result in less output over the year for a typical Scottish business or Scottish worker.

But you have no direct evidence.

We have no scientific evidence.

I am finding this an interesting discussion and I thank all of you for doing exactly what we asked you to do, which was to assess Dennis Canavan's proposal and tell us what you think of it. However, with the greatest of respect to Dennis, I will park his bill to one side for a moment.

Given that all of you said that you are not necessarily against having another public holiday—although Professor Munn said that he wished he could sit on a cross-bench on the issue—if you had the chance to propose something tangible that the Parliament and the Executive could do to try to fulfil some of your shared ambitions for the promotion of Scotland around a specific day, the most obvious of which would be St Andrew's day, what shape or form would that take?

I disagree with your final point about St Andrew's day being the most obvious day for a new public holiday. It seems to me that Burns night is the most obvious.

That is the next bill.

Those of us who celebrate Burns night, of course, have grievous need of a holiday the next day.

We would need to make it a week.

Speak for yourself.

At least in terms of the Scottish diaspora, Burns night is the most obvious choice. For example, my institute has a Burns supper in London every year that is attended by 1,000 people. It is a big event that puts Scotland on the map in London. English bankers vie with one another to get invitations to come along. I am sure that you know that Burns suppers are held all over the world. There is a case to be made for celebrating Burns. St Andrew, as you are probably aware, never actually made it to Scotland.

Do you have a supplementary question on that, Susan?

I hate supplementaries. I will leave the debate about St Andrew versus Burns just for a second. I will stick with the approach of looking for solutions to achieve what I believe are shared objectives. I want to pick up on the issue of bank holidays. Again, I for one have certainly learned a huge amount about what bank holidays are and are not during this meeting and from reading the various papers on the issue.

I think that everyone—whether a bank or a customer—would agree that the current situation is a guddle, no matter how we look at it. I touched earlier on the relationship between bank holidays and school holidays. Again, in the spirit of seeking solutions, can the witnesses suggest what they think we as parliamentarians could do, with or without legislation, to address the inconsistency that we face at the moment, given that Westminster has not made the parliamentary time to do that in the past?

You are right. Having different local holidays throughout the country causes businesses problems. When we discussed the bill at our policy committee, the debate on the bill was hijacked by the debate on that matter. People complained that they never knew when places were going to be open and so on. However, I think that the bank holidays issue will be taken out of your hands because there is a proposal at Westminster to set the eight bank holidays in statute. I am not sure whether Westminster will set down dates for the eight days or leave that to local interests or consultations between local authorities, the business community, trade unions and so on. However, I imagine that before the next Westminster general election that matter will be taken out of your hands and that the eight public holiday days will be set in statute as an employee's right.

One of the points that I made in our paper was that for those members who represent larger organisations the concept of the bank holiday is disappearing fast anyway. Staff will just have an annual holiday entitlement that they will take in agreement with their employer taking account of mutual needs. Therefore, to that extent, businesses with such arrangements would make their own judgments. When there are or are not bank or public holidays is not a key issue for them, because they will probably be open 24/7 for 365 days a year anyway and their staff will be able to take holidays as and when it suits them, as long as that fits in with the businesses' needs.

Therefore, for a large number of our members, confusion about public holidays and bank holidays will not be a huge issue, although it will be an issue for small businesses. When I was seeking views for this paper, I did not ask about that, so I am unable to give a definitive answer on that. From the point of view of those businesses that shut on bank holidays, as long as the bank holiday to celebrate Scotland is not an additional bank holiday, you could pick and choose between St Andrew's day, Burns night, or whatever.

I am genuinely confused about what the three of you are in favour of. I do not know whether you think that it would be a good or a bad thing to have a day on which there was a pretty widespread closedown. Alan Mitchell talked about the distinction between large and small businesses but, as we heard from our previous witnesses, in some sectors, such as tourism and retail, it would not be sufficient for them to be able to choose to take that holiday. Indeed, the opposite is the case because, for them to flourish, they would require the rest of the country universally to take that day off.

Could you clarify whether, in principle, you think that the notion of having a day to celebrate Scotland that is not an additional holiday is a good idea, irrespective of whether legislation is involved?

I think that a number of businesses would have a problem with the concept of being told that, on a certain day of the year, they had to shut. That is because those businesses are increasingly globally active and are trying to provide a 24/7, 365-days-a-year service to their customers. Christmas and new year, of course, are the one exception and some of those businesses might close then but, on all the other bank holidays, they will be open. If you were to say, "We are going to close every business in Scotland on this day in order to celebrate St Andrew's day," those businesses might have a problem. Some businesses might decide to do that because they believed that they could create some business opportunities by doing so, but others would not and would fall back on the system that they currently use, whereby employees are given their holiday entitlement and can take a bank holiday if they want to.

We would have a similar problem. Quite large numbers of people working in the financial services sector in Scotland are providing services to other parts of the United Kingdom, principally England, but also Wales and Northern Ireland, as well as to the Republic of Ireland. Having a day on which there was a statutory requirement to close would produce enormous difficulties.

We can see the benefits of having a national day, such as St Patrick's day in Ireland. That is where I agree with the previous panel. I suppose that it is up to the people of Scotland to decide whether they want to have such a day and, if they do, what day they want that to be.

How would the people of Scotland decide that other than through this institution, given that, arguably, it is the closest that we will get to a place where we can give a voice to the aspirations of the Scottish people?

We should focus on ends rather than means for a minute. What ends should we be working towards? Niall Stuart seems to have parted company from the rest of the panel by saying that having a day on which there is a pretty widespread closedown is not necessarily a bad idea and that he might even support it.

A national day can be a good thing if it delivers the kinds of benefits that St Patrick's day brings to Ireland, Bastille day brings to France and thanksgiving brings to America. It could reinforce national identity and be a day of celebration. We would not have a clear opinion about what day that should be. It could be Burns day, St Andrew's day or another day that might be suggested.

We might eventually be able to make it independence day.

You could not resist, could you?

I will not go there, convener.

In the consultation that he undertook with his members, did Alan Mitchell ask them whether there were any areas in which having such a holiday would create opportunities for the growth of their business?

I did not ask that specific question. The broad question that I asked my members was, "The proposal is for X. If it were implemented, what would be the implications for your business?" They were perfectly capable of coming back with, "We'd be for it because of X, Y and Z," or, "We'd be against it because of X, Y and Z." The majority who responded were opposed to the proposal for a variety of reasons. We did not pose the question in such a way as to say, "We're going to oppose this. What do you think?" Instead, we asked, "What line should we be adopting on this?" which is how we carry out our consultations. By and large, our members did not come back in favour and they certainly did not come back saying, "We are in favour because of X, Y and Z."

So they chose to consider the negative aspects of the proposal rather than the positives, which for larger businesses could include growth in their export market, particularly to areas where there are a significant number of ex-pat Scots.

No. They chose to respond in terms of their informed assessment of what the provision would mean to their business. They are all perfectly capable of doing that, because they have to look for opportunities daily. That is how they are all surviving in an increasingly competitive world. They have considered the proposal and the additional cost implications and they have decided that the costs outweigh the benefits.

Did Niall Stuart get similar feedback from his members?

The trouble with this kind of proposal is that the costs will always be obvious to businesses. They know how much money their business generates in a single day's production or trading. What they are not sure about are the benefits of a greater sense of national identity, or whether people will spend more. Who is really sure what the benefits will be? We can guess that there will be some benefits, but they are intangible and unreal at this stage, whereas the costs are all too apparent and all too obvious to businesses.

In considering the other side of that economic equation, no one has really addressed the question of where the additional income is to come from. Where is the additional income to be earned so that people have the money to spend in the shops and to go on the holidays? That is not addressed anywhere here.

The previous panel identified that, should the holiday be the last Monday in November, it would be in the lead-up to Christmas markets and that—although these words were not used—it would give people an opportunity to start their Christmas shopping. There would be an effect for the clearing banks because there would be greater circulation of money over that weekend.

Professor Munn, to take you back to your earlier points, particularly about bank branches, how can you balance your comments about people using branches against the fact that the number of branches is decreasing each year in Scotland?

Although the number of branches may be declining, I am sure that you are aware that some banks have stated clearly that they do not have branch closure programmes. The facility for doing banking business is expanding through other channels, particularly through telephone banking, and through internet banking and the facilities opened by some banks through the Post Office. That is being addressed.

So you do not think that the reduction in the number of branches has an impact at all.

No, I do not see that the issues are connected.

So if branches were closed for that day, there would be no impact. If the number of branches is being reduced, does that not turn on its head your argument that branches could not be closed for that one day?

I did not say that we could not close branches. If St Andrew's day was a bank holiday, each bank would be entitled to make its own decision. They would ask, "Do we open our branches or do we not? Do we open all our branches or do we not?" They would probably decide on a branch-by-branch or region-by-region basis, depending on their view of likely customer demand for their services.

My line of questioning is allied to Susan Deacon's. For the avoidance of doubt, are you in favour of an additional national public holiday, whether we call it a bank holiday or not?

No. The consensus view of the CBI's members was that if you want to create a holiday to replace one of the existing holidays, that is fine, but you should not create an additional day's holiday.

Is that everyone's view?

Yes.

I invite you to speculate slightly. If you were to have another day's national holiday, would the optimum date be a day at the end of November?

There are so many different businesses with so many different requirements that there is no such thing as an optimum day. We have talked about festive spending, but for companies that supply the festive market the period from August through to November and even into December is their busiest time of the year, so any kind of closure during that period would cause major problems. The problems would not be the same for other businesses. There is no optimum time.

I return to the point that, increasingly, larger businesses would not take the bank holiday anyway. Frankly, I think that the majority of them would not take it as a designated bank holiday or day off but would have the normal arrangements whereby as many of the staff as possible who wanted to be off on that day could take the day off, either by using their annual leave or by swapping shifts and using the multitude of other informal ways that people can use to engineer their work time better around their family commitments. However, unfortunately, there is no optimum time to have a holiday, because there is no standard business.

We would be keen to avoid a date at the end of the month because, as you are aware, that is when most people are paid. It is also when a lot of settlements for various transactions take place, including mortgages. Any closure or reduction of service at that point that might inhibit access would not be desirable.

If the purpose of the holiday is to have a Scottish national holiday, I do not think that there is any great difference between 30 November and 25 January. However, if you asked 100 businesses what the optimum day would be for an extra holiday, you would get 100 different answers. There would be no consensus on what was a good day and what was a bad day.

I have a couple of questions, the first of which is probably for Charles Munn. I am looking for clarity because, from teasing out your answers to Susan Deacon's and Christine May's questions, I think that two parallel discussions are going on. There is a discussion about whether a St Andrew's day holiday is a good thing, but the committee has to consider Dennis Canavan's bill, which is quite different. I would be grateful if you could confirm that you agree with my understanding, which is that Dennis's bill is permissive, and seeks to allow the banks to carry forward their business if they wish to close on the day.

That is true.

Do you therefore see any advantage in our passing the bill?

If the objective of the legislation is to celebrate St Andrew and St Andrew's day, the answer is no.

That is interesting. I have a second follow-on question for Alan Mitchell and Niall Stuart. Given what has been said, if the Parliament passes the bill, what do you think the reaction of your members will be? Will they be more likely to grant their employees a holiday?

Obviously, the point of passing the bill would be to give people the holiday. I think that the public sector would be more likely to take the holiday than the private sector, but there will ultimately be pressure on private sector employers to grant it. People will come to expect it in the same way that they have come to expect the existing eight bank holidays.

As I said at the start, we are against the holiday because the economics do not stack up. The costs would be around £80 million, but the perceived retail benefits would be around £30 million.

Given that the proposed legislation is purely permissive, unless the Scottish Executive, for example, is prepared to give a lead and grant its employees an extra day's holiday, I presume that there would be no pressure on the private sector to do so.

Pressure would ultimately come from staff, the trade unions and so on. They would embrace the opportunity to have an extra day's holiday.

The STUC's paper shows that the STUC would immediately campaign for the wide implementation of the bank holiday, if not through companies closing, through every employee getting an extra day's annual leave. There will be internal pressure on business to respond to that campaign, but that pressure will be greater if there is a wider take-up of the holiday in the public sector. Most of our members fear that the holiday will be much more widely implemented in the public sector than in the private sector, which will inevitably create pressures for businesses to respond, simply because people who want to recruit and retain staff must offer competitive benefits packages. Holidays are one factor in such packages, although they are not the only factor. Therefore, there would be tremendous pressure on many businesses. It does not matter which way businesses go. If they give the holiday, they will take on the extra costs; if they do not give it, they will run the risk of losing key people. Neither approach will help businesses to grow.

In addition, there is uncertainty about the legal status of bank holidays in the light of the Government's manifesto proposal to enshrine them in statute, and the legislation may be worded in such a way that any bank holiday will be an automatic right. In that case, staff in Scotland will have an automatic right to nine bank holidays and staff in England will have an automatic right to eight.

As there is uncertainty about what the bill's impact would be, it seems essential to me that we take evidence from the Executive to try to ascertain what its response would be to the legislation.

We can certainly ask the Executive whether it wants to give evidence, but it would need to do so very soon because we are working to a timescale. Such evidence has not been volunteered so far.

I want to pursue the point that Margaret Jamieson made. If I may say so, none of your submissions refers much to business opportunities that would arise from the creation of a St Andrew's day holiday; indeed, the submissions are so negative in that respect that they seem to display a Scottish business cringe mentality.

In contrast, I draw your attention to the policy memorandum that accompanies the bill, which quotes Lord Macfarlane of Bearsden, who is, as the memorandum states,

"widely respected for his business acumen".

He sees "enormous potential" in celebrating St Andrew's day and believes that the nation is not maximising its

"strong marketing assets adequately for the long-term benefits of Scotland plc".

He has said:

"I share the vision that the time has come to capitalise on these assets and make St Andrew's Day a focus for worldwide celebrations of Scotland and Scottish achievement."

Does none of you share that vision? Do you not see great business opportunities arising from the proposal, particularly for tourism, retail, hospitality, leisure and recreation? Do you not see that a holiday on St Andrew's day will give a huge positive boost to Scottish business and the Scottish economy and that it will help to promote Scotland internationally?

All those opportunities and benefits could be enjoyed simply by moving one of the existing bank holidays to St Andrew's day. That would mean that there would be no extra costs for business and that we would be able to embrace the opportunities that you have mentioned, which are outlined in the accompanying documentation.

I take a similar view. Lord Macfarlane is obviously a well-known businessman. Equally clever business folk will look at the proposal and not see any great opportunity for their business; what they will see is extra costs that we cannot afford in a very competitive environment.

I know Lord Macfarlane well, but I listen to and represent the views of other leading Scottish businessmen. You have already heard those views.

We contacted Lord Macfarlane, but, unfortunately, although he was keen to give oral evidence he was unable to do so due to pressure of business.

Professor Munn, you state in your written submission that a new bank holiday may not be observed and that there is no automatic connection between a bank holiday and a holiday for schoolchildren and workers, whether in the public or private sector. I cannot argue with that. However, do you not accept that in the UK a bank holiday is the only mechanism for declaring anything resembling a nationwide holiday?

No. The holidays that are celebrated widely are public holidays such as Christmas and Easter.

Christmas is a bank holiday too.

That is true, but that is an historical accident. I am suggesting that bank holidays are not in the vanguard of what creates the kind of holiday that you are trying to achieve.

Can you name anything resembling a nationwide holiday that is not a bank holiday?

No.

No. My next question is about the issue of uniformity throughout the UK. It, too, is specifically for Professor Munn. You state in your written submission:

"The creation of a new bank holiday on 30 November would therefore run contrary to the stated objective of the banks which was to have a standard practice throughout the UK."

The fact is that banking practices vary from one part of the UK to another. For example, there are different banknotes—I applaud your efforts to retain them. Similarly, there is no standard practice on bank holidays throughout the UK. Scotland is unique in having a holiday on 2 January; England and Wales and Northern Ireland have Easter Monday, but we do not; Northern Ireland already has two additional bank holidays, 12 July and St Patrick's day; and, of course, St Patrick's day is also a bank holiday in the Republic of Ireland. Do you not agree that it would be preposterous to suggest that a St Patrick's day bank holiday is somehow bad for Irish banking, bad for Irish business, and bad for the Irish economy?

That is not what I am suggesting. As I said in my opening submission, Scottish banks decided some years ago to conform to UK practice in observing bank holidays, even though the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971 decrees which days are bank holidays in Scotland. I agree that the position is confused. We observe bank holidays on days that are not legally bank holidays.

Do you not agree then that that lack of uniformity throughout the UK is not necessarily bad for banking, bad for business and bad for the Scottish economy?

What I am saying is that we now have uniformity because of how we observe bank holidays.

But we do not. The second of January is a bank holiday in Scotland but not south of the border.

But it is not observed in Scotland. That is my point.

It is observed by a huge section of the workforce. The purpose of the bill is to create a climate in which an increasing number of employers will enter into serious negotiations with their employees to grant the St Andrew's day holiday.

The point that we have been making is that there is no automatic connection between the creation of a bank holiday and the follow-on effects that you are hoping for.

Yes, but do you not agree that Parliament has no other mechanism to create anything resembling a nationwide holiday?

I am unaware of the powers of Parliament in that regard.

You refer in your written submission to the wider detrimental impact of the bill, including disruption to bank services, transaction delays, extra charges and late charges. Frankly, I am amazed that the banks seem to be using bank holidays to rip off their customers with additional charges, if that is what they are doing. That seems to go against the spirit if not the letter of the legislation that established bank holidays so that banking transactions could be delayed until the next working day without penalties being incurred. Even if such charges are permitted under law, surely the problems to which you refer would apply to any bank holiday. If the banks and their customers can overcome those problems on existing bank holidays, why on earth can they not overcome them on St Andrew's day?

I do not think that anyone is suggesting that the problems could not or would not be overcome.

Most of the points that I was going to make—particularly about penalties—have been made already by Dennis Canavan. There seems to be a contradiction between what we are being told is the purpose of a bank holiday and your submission. I would like to hear a few more comments on that. Also, I wonder whether the negative reaction to the proposal is based on the fact that we use gross domestic product as the indicator of economic welfare in Scotland. If we used a different economic indicator we might get a different response from you. However, perhaps you could address the point about penalties.

What was the specific question?

In the policy memorandum to the bill, we are told:

"The purpose of legislative provision is to allow banks to suspend financial and other dealings on bank holidays so that no penalties are incurred for payments delayed as a result of closure."

Yet you specifically listed points—

I understand. The point that we were trying to make is that, if a customer was not able to make a deposit because the bank was closed on a particular day, that would be an inconvenience to the customer. They would have to pay in the deposit on the following day and they would thereby lose a day's interest on it.

So it is more about interest than about penalties.

If, for example, someone wanted to pay a credit card bill that was due on a Monday but they were unable to do that because their bank was closed and they did not have access to any other way of paying the bill, they may well incur penalties. As Mr Canavan says, that is something that we would have to work our way around.

I would like to clear the decks a little. To follow Susan Deacon's line of questioning, is it not fair to say that a lot of the discussion about bank holidays and the effects that they have is increasingly less relevant? When it is Monday in Scotland it may be Sunday in Delhi. When one rings up the bank, one might find oneself talking to a call centre in Delhi, where it is a different time of day.

As I said to the previous panel, I never go into a bank. My credit card is paid automatically. It is a fact that fewer and fewer customers go into bank branches and there are not many branches in which people can see their bank manager. In a global context, is not the concept of a bank holiday a complete anachronism? That might not be true for my mother's generation, but it will be true within 10 to 15 years. In a global banking world, we will not have bank holidays.

That might well be the outcome.

Is that not pertinent to today's discussion? Are we not discussing the merits or non-merits of the matter on the wrong foundations?

We are not suggesting that bank staff will get fewer holidays. Indeed, bank staff are, for the most part, treated moderately generously when it comes to holidays. However, we now operate in a global business environment and, as we have heard several times this afternoon, we are expected to be available to our customers wherever they may be. We now have customers not just in Scotland but all around the world and anything that limits our ability to do that business will probably be considered unhelpful. To return to the original point, I cannot see how the Parliament would expect a bank holiday, nebulous as the concept might be now, somehow to change into a major celebration of St Andrew.

That concludes a robust and enjoyable evidence session.