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The first item on our agenda is amnesic shellfish poisoning. I welcome Rhona Brankin, who is the newly appointed Deputy Minister for Rural Development, and Susan Deacon, the Minister for Health and Community Care. They are accompanied by the Minister for Rural Development, Ross Finnie, and officials, including Derek Feeley, who is head of the sea fisheries division at the Scottish Executive rural affairs department. Also present are a number of officials from the Food Standards Agency Scotland: Lydia Wilkie, assistant director, Martin Reid, head of policy, Colin Moffat and Geoff Moon. Dr Moffat deals with the enforcement aspects of amnesic shellfish poisoning, while Mr Moon can give us scientific advice.
I am sure that members have questions, but before we ask them, do the ministers or officials wish to make an opening statement?
I welcome this opportunity for early dialogue with the Rural Affairs Committee on amnesic shellfish poisoning, which is an important issue. As the fisheries minister in the new ministerial team, I am keen to tackle the issue with some urgency.
Thank you, and welcome to your first Rural Affairs Committee meeting.
I congratulate Rhona Brankin on her appointment as Deputy Minister for Rural Development, and wish her well in the post. There will be many challenges ahead. Any help that the minister can give the industry in meeting those challenges will be most welcome among fishermen in Scotland. I am sure that our paths will cross on many occasions during many constructive debates.
That is a very serious allegation, convener, to which we would wish to have the opportunity to respond.
I back up what Ross Finnie has said. There is no question of downgrading the job of fisheries minister. I will do that job. I will head up the Scottish end of the delegation at the Fisheries Council meeting in November and at the big meeting in December, but I will work closely with my colleague, Ross Finnie, who is the Cabinet minister with overall responsibility. It is very important to say that.
I welcome the ministers' comments. I am sure that the industry will also welcome those comments, but the fact remains that even the Scottish Office, prior to devolution, had a designated minister for fisheries, who used the title minister for fisheries in Scotland. That is no longer the situation.
On a point of order.
I share the member's concern. I encourage Richard Lochhead to ask his question.
My question refers to the report, dated 31 October, that the FSA has given to the committee this morning. The report says that on 18 September
I regret having to go back to the wider point before I turn to the specifics. Like Ross Finnie, I take issue with some of the unsubstantiated allegations and assertions that underpinned Richard Lochhead's question. His question was predicated on a notion that there has been a lack of progress on, and attention to, the matter by ministers. I refute that absolutely.
It might be useful to take members briefly through the history of what has been on the go this year, which started in advance of the agency coming into being. The first indication that we had from the Community reference laboratory about the systems that were on the go in each of the European countries was in March this year. A sub-committee agreed at that time that further work would be done and that each member state would need to comment on its paper. Martin Reid and I went to Brussels to speak at the Standing Veterinary Committee and to ask about progress.
Part of the committee's duty is to scrutinise the Executive. We agreed unanimously to have the ministers along today because of a perceived lack of progress in helping the scallop sector and, in particular, in introducing a tiered system of testing. The perception among fishermen is that the introduction of a tiered system of testing has been bogged down in bureaucracy. What is the Executive doing to speed up the process in Europe, and here in Scotland, so that we can get the tiered system in place as soon as possible? How long will that take? When will the system be in place?
I answered that question to the best of my ability in previous comments. The scientific assessment of the proposed tiered system is under way and a final report is expected in January; we therefore do not expect a Commission decision before February. In my comments, and in the detailed comments of Lydia Wilkie of the FSA, members have heard about the many stages, negotiations and discussions that take place at official level, through the SVC, and through my meetings with the health commissioner. The FSA has detailed the work that is under way on the issue that Richard Lochhead raises.
The committee will be relieved to hear that I am not about to read from my forthcoming press release. I want to ask about the testing regime, so my questions may be for Mr Moon. As you know, in our original report we were concerned about improving the research into the alleged link between fish farming and ASP. Could you update us on that research? We recommended that further funding should be found for it.
I will ask Colin Moffat to answer as he, rather than my other colleague, Mr Moon, is the scientific one. Mr Moffat is one of the senior scientists at the Marine Laboratory, and was actively involved in the comparison test.
You mentioned the difference in toxicity in various isomers in the ASP grouping. The test that we carry out—the high-pressure liquid chromatographic test—clearly shows the different isomers within the group of domoic acid. What is not yet clear is the potential for different toxicity within the isomers. However, we can see the isomers and we can take them into account. The testing clearly shows the isomer distribution.
You are not clear about the level of toxicity of the different isomers?
The different toxicity between isomers has not been established.
Is research being undertaken to find out which of those isomers is the most toxic?
Isomer distribution is characterised by a very high concentration of domoic acid. That makes up in excess of 90 per cent of the isomers that are present. The epi-domoic acid and iso-domoic acid are present in very low concentrations relative to the dominant peak of domoic acid.
There is also the issue of optical isomers risks. In the same way that hands are mirror images of each other and if one tries to put a glove on the wrong hand it will not fit, if one puts the wrong optical isomer into a site it will not fit and make it as toxic. Has any research been done on that?
We are examining different toxicities at the Marine Laboratory.
What about the alleged link between fish farming and the increases in toxic algal blooms?
Considerable research is being done into the presence of algal blooms and the issue of the plankton that is present in the seas around Scotland. Research is being done not only by Fisheries Research Services in Aberdeen, but at the Dunstaffnage Marine Laboratory in Oban and at the Sir Alister Hardy Foundation for Ocean Science, which undertakes continuous plankton recording. That process has been on-going for 50 years. The data that are being produced suggest that there are changes in the composition of plankton in the seas around Scotland. However, those changes are taking place throughout the seas around Scotland. On the evidence that we have currently, we feel that climatic and hydrographic changes are responsible for the changes in plankton distribution that are taking place.
I want to focus on the question of comparison. There is concern that, compared with our competitors, we are taking too strict a line on this issue. Is the testing regime of some of our competitors—I am thinking of Ireland in particular—the same as the one that we operate? The industry wants it to be made clear that we are not being overzealous in testing for the diseases. The minister may be the person to respond to this question.
That question has arisen on many occasions over the past year and a half. On each occasion that it has been raised, we have looked into the matter and responded to it in committee and in the chamber. It would be inappropriate for us to comment on the adequacy or appropriateness of the testing regime in any other European Community member state. It is for us to ensure that our testing regime meets the standards that are required to protect public health, as set out in the EC directive, and that it is receptive and responsive to the questions and concerns of industry. Those would include questions about testing regimes elsewhere.
I understand that and I am not trying to get you to comment on our competitors. However, the industry holds a view that it is being placed under the microscope and that we are being overzealous compared with our competitors. There does not seem to be the same problem elsewhere. Although I am not asking you to comment on other regimes, can you confirm that there are differences between our testing and monitoring regime and our competitors' regimes?
I will ask the FSA to take you through that in some detail, because the matter has been the subject of considerable discussion.
One of the reasons why the subgroup to investigate algal toxin testing regimes was set up was that it had become obvious that there were several different approaches to the testing regimes. There was a desire to ensure that the basic science was as watertight as possible. The methodology is set out in a directive and each member state must apply it at the same levels. In this country, we test the edible parts of the animal; such testing is not unfairly rigorous—logic suggests that the parts that people eat should be the parts that are tested.
Other regimes stipulate, for example—you will correct me if I am wrong—that the animal should be washed before it is tested. I understand that we simply test the animal. Is that correct?
It might be better if Colin Moffat answers that question.
My argument is that washing can make a difference.
It might also help if Colin explained the effects of washing on toxins.
In the Marine Laboratory, the parts that are to be analysed are taken out and given a wash under the tap before being put into the homogeniser to produce a homogeneous sample for subsequent analysis. That means that our current procedure includes washing. Furthermore, as Fisheries Research Services in Aberdeen is the national reference laboratory for toxins, we undertake ring trials of laboratories that perform ASP testing, including laboratories in the Republic of Ireland. We send samples out to a laboratory in Northern Ireland, to the Centre for Environment, Fisheries and Aquaculture Science in England and to a laboratory in the Republic of Ireland. We conduct tests on the sample ourselves. The results return to us for analysis of variations between the laboratories. We have been encouraged by the fact that the results we have received have been very close.
As far as negotiations with the EC are concerned, what conditions might need to be met before the tiered testing system can be approved? Obviously we will need to deal with issues such as enforcement, product traceability and disposal of shellfish that are found to be above toxin levels. Furthermore, what efforts are being made to involve the industry in developing an enforcement system?
Des McNulty has raised two separate but obviously related issues. The first concerns the question of what the EC will require before reaching a decision that would enable us to proceed with a tiered testing system. However, I will start with the second issue, which centres on enforcement of that testing system.
Both ministers have spoken about increased dialogue between the industry and scientists. Recently, I attended workshops that involved scientists and industry representatives. The workshops were helpful because they gave each group an insight into the other's work. The workshops involved people from America, Ireland and elsewhere who could be asked questions on their work. How could we set up such a forum to allow that dialogue to continue and information to flow between the two sectors?
I emphasised in my opening remarks that we must be able to work closely together on the issue, which is why I suggested setting up a body precisely for that purpose. Such a body would include representatives from the industry, the FSA, scientists, the Scottish Executive and Highlands and Islands Enterprise. Other bodies might also be included in it. We must work positively together, because although things are very difficult now, there might be some longer-term positive outcomes. Collaboration is essential to our approach and we want very much to listen and to continue a full and frank dialogue with all parties.
I congratulate Rhona Brankin on her appointment as Deputy Minister for Rural Development.
There was a long queue, John.
I direct the ministers' attention to directive 492, which is the directive that we have heard most about. During the past 18 months, we have received many representations from the industry about its doubts whether the directive was being implemented correctly and fairly. Might we be moving, as the deputy minister indicated, towards a change in the testing regime, given the current wording of the directive?
That is the specific point that the Commission is considering and which requires a Commission decision for clarification. The wording of all directives is amazing and is arguably open to some interpretation. We believe that we are enforcing the directive correctly at the moment. However, if the Commission decides—in scientific as opposed to enforcement terms—that it is possible to operate a tiered regime without having to amend the directive, which would be a much longer task, we would then recommend changes to the regime to the Scottish Executive. That would happen on the assumption that we had a robust enforcement regime. We will consult the industry and we have already discussed with industry representatives in a number of forums how to take the matter forward to the next stage.
At this stage, are you hopeful of securing some sort of alteration to the directive? Are you encouraged by the discussions that you have had?
It is encouraging that the Commission does not believe that there would have to be a formal amendment to the directive. Assuming that the Commission is content with the detailed science, we could expect a Commission decision early next year that would allow us to move ahead.
Do you hope that there will be some sort of change in the structure prior to the toxin levels rising again next year?
We hope so.
How long would there be between a Commission decision and a change to the directive?
A Commission decision could be taken by the Standing Veterinary Committee at its February meeting at the earliest, although the time scale may slip to March or April. It is difficult for us—we are pressing Brussels gently, but as hard as we can, if you know what I mean. If we have to seek a full change to the directive, that would likely take at least a year, if not longer.
It is worth stressing the on-going nature of the discussions on the matter. The most recent meeting of the scientific expert group of the national reference laboratory was held on 25 October, which shows how current the issue is. If members look at the last few paragraphs of the FSA paper, they will see that it has attempted to set out an informed prediction—or hope—of where things might go from here. Paragraph 8 states:
I have a question about tiered testing. We are talking about ASP today, but will the same regime apply to other toxins?
We hope to introduce an enforcement regime that will be as flexible as possible, which should allow it to test for other toxins in future. However, for some other toxins, the directive is completely different. For example, diarrhetic shellfish poisoning is such a dangerous toxin that fisheries must close if it is found in them. The Commission would insist that the science was robust enough for regimes that relate to other toxins.
The FSA has said twice that, because of the size of our shellfish fishery, we must have a very robust enforcement regime. What you have been saying seems to imply that that regime would be more robust than regimes elsewhere. Can you confirm whether that is the case? You say that we need a robust enforcement regime, but so does everybody else. Having a bigger fishery should not mean that the regime should be any more robust. It might need to be more extensive, but not more robust. Is that correct?
Because the FSA has a public safety and consumer safety hat, we want all enforcement regimes to be robust, although they might not all be exactly the same. My words were probably not particularly well chosen. Our industry is a lot more complex than those of Northern Ireland or England—many more factors come into play.
Can you expand on that a little?
We have a different profile for scallop fishing. I shall ask my fisheries colleague to explain further.
The key difference is that the Scottish industry is much more geographically dispersed, and lands fish at a greater number of ports. We also have a relatively high number of small processing outlets. The structure of the industry is different from that in the Republic of Ireland. There are differences of scale and location, but I do not think that anyone is suggesting that there are insurmountable problems.
Presumably the nature of the testing is not affected, although it might need to take place in more locations.
Indeed. We would need to have an audit trail to satisfy ourselves that the correct procedures were being followed. As I said, there should not be any insurmountable difficulties, but the structure might be rather more complex here than it is in other parts of the British Isles.
Given the problems that scallop fishers have had, they need as many opportunities to fish as possible. I understand that waters that are controlled by the Isle of Man—which would normally open tomorrow and which are particularly important to fisheries in the south-west of Scotland—are now subject to some restrictive byelaws. I assume that the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food and the Scottish Executive rural affairs department have been consulted about that. What input have you had to the Manx Government's decision?
There was some consultation with the UK fisheries departments about what the Isle of Man was proposing. Last year, the consultation amounted to just one day, but we took slightly more time—but not a great deal—this year. In the light of the fact that many of the proposals that were made by the Isle of Man authorities were broadly similar to proposals that the Scottish Executive will shortly make—on limiting dredge numbers, for example—a reply has been sent via the Home Office, which is the normal intermediary between fisheries departments and the Isle of Man authorities. We have no substantive difficulties with what the Isle of Man authorities propose.
Do we have any kind of veto, or do we merely have an influence on the Isle of Man Government? Did the industry put forward a specific view on those proposals?
I must confess that the precise constitutional position with regard to the Isle of Man is outwith my direct knowledge. I understand that the relevant Home Office minister has the power to instruct. I can only guess whether they have the power to veto, and I am slightly unwilling to do that before the committee.
We could ask for an answer to Alasdair Morgan's question to be provided in correspondence after the meeting has taken place.
Thank you, convener.
I would like to bring in some of the guests at today's meeting. I invite Fergus Ewing to speak.
Paragraph 7 of the written submission from the Food Standards Agency sets out the main problem: that clear, scientific evidence must be provided that a tiered testing system is satisfactory and presents no risk to public health. Given that that is the situation, can the Minister for Health and Community Care confirm that the Food Standards Agency and the Marine Laboratory will supply all required data and scientific evidence to the EU national reference laboratories and the EU Standing Veterinary Committee to substantiate, where necessary, the UK scallop sector's call for tiered testing?
I am happy to give that assurance. The FSA and the Executive are pursuing the issue actively. We are keen to ensure that progress takes place as effectively and on as informed a basis as possible.
I welcome that answer. Can the minister go one step further and confirm that, in the interests of openness and transparency, all such information and scientific data will be supplied to all industry bodies as well as the European bodies?
Much of the information in respect of the analysis that will be done is coming from other countries to the UK national reference laboratory, which is Fisheries Research Services in Aberdeen. We will undertake detailed analysis of those data and incorporate them into the report that will be presented in January to the ASP working group.
With respect, I was hoping for a yes or no answer.
It would be useful to clarify the status of the report in terms of its availability to the industry and others.
Most of the countries are happy for their data to be included in the report and to be available. However, the Spanish have requested that their data be kept confidential in the first instance.
We all have the same aim—that a tiered testing system should be introduced if there is no risk to public health and scientific data can be produced to substantiate that. My concern—which arises from a useful meeting that I had last week with Mr Home Robertson and some of the officials who are present here today—is that there is a slight dislocation between the Executive and the FSA, and a slight dislocation between the FSA and the industry. We have a very short time within which to do a great deal of work, if we are to avoid the ban on scallops extending into its fourth year.
I will pick up first on Fergus Ewing's point about the relationship between the FSA and the industry. The FSA is a recently established organisation but, as we all know, it was established for very good reasons. I have followed closely the way in which the agency has developed and I think that, increasingly, it has forged new, better and stronger links with the industry. There is always room for improvement, and I am sure that the agency would be the first to acknowledge that it is continually looking into ways of making those relationships as effective as possible.
I am informed that the new First Minister has called a Cabinet meeting for this afternoon, so we must be efficient in our use of ministers' time. I am keen to ensure that members have an opportunity to ask some final questions, but they should be kept brief.
If it is not over-egging the pudding, I, too, would like to congratulate Rhona Brankin on her appointment. I am sure that she will do a very good job. She will certainly add a welcome touch of glamour to this area.
In that I will be joining you.
The minister mentioned that money would be available from the financial instrument for fisheries guidance programme. As far as I know, there is only £11 million in the kitty, and an awful lot of people seem to be after it. How much money will be given to scallop fishermen, and in what way? Will some of it be used to compensate them for the distressing times that they have had in the past?
It has been the policy of successive Governments not to compensate for losses due to disease or other natural phenomena in the marine environment, and the Scottish Executive sees no reason to change that position. More generally, financial assistance for the industry will be available under the new FIFG guidance programme. I ask Derek Feeley to give the committee more details on the point that we have reached with that important programme. I am keen to get it going as soon as possible, so that the industry can tap into those funds.
The £11 million that Mr Home Robertson announced last week was the increase in FIFG over the baseline provision. We are planning to draw down something like £6.9 million in 2001-02 and up to £8 million in the two following years. How much of that money goes to the scallop industry depends on what kind of schemes and projects the fishing industry and the Executive are able to put together. We have set up a group called the Highlands and Islands fisheries management group, which is a joint Executive/industry body.
But nothing has happened.
The group's first meeting took place a couple of weeks ago. We have a second meeting tomorrow in Inverness. We have encouraged the group to start the process of thinking through what the projects ought to be. However, we cannot make payments under FIFG until the relevant regulation is approved by the Scottish Parliament. We would expect to be making the first call for projects by the end of this calendar year.
Thank you. Lastly, this may sound naive, but usually when one eats a fish, one guts it first. We know that the Irish and others have been shucking scallops for years. When we are faced with a ban, why can we not take away the gonad and the gut and sell and test only white meat? Would you care to comment on the theory that water enrichment—possibly from fish farms—is causing lack of silicate in the water, which leads to the diatoms producing toxins and therefore algal blooms?
We seem to be going over old ground.
It is not old ground, because I am asking a specific question.
There are two issues. First is the question about exploring alternatives to the testing regime, specifically the practice of shucking. That is what the work around the testing regime involves. All the dialogue that is currently taking place is directed towards moving in that direction.
I am sorry to interrupt, but are you aware that that will be too late for many scallop fishermen, because many of them are already selling their boats?
As I have indicated, it would have been much worse for the scallop industry and for us all if we had taken risks with public health. Earlier I referred to the BSE report and I did not do so lightly. That is the context in which we must consider such safety issues. I appreciate the fact that the industry has co-operated with us so effectively in recognition of the fact that one case of ASP—serious illness, or even worse, death—would have implications for the industry for decades, rather than years. As the Minister for Health and Community Care, I am not prepared to take any risks with public health.
Jamie McGrigor's point about compensation is that following the BSE crisis, farmers have received millions of pounds in assistance, and the outbreak of infectious salmon anaemia prompted a £9 million package for salmon farmers, yet no cash has been forthcoming for the scallop fishermen.
We had a wide-ranging meeting in February, along the lines of a committee such as the one that we have discussed today—including all the stakeholders. We had a discussion with the industry about two proposals. The proposal from the industry was on using charter vessels in a possible restructuring of the testing boxes. The other proposal was from the Marine Laboratory to create better mapping of the scallop grounds. My recollection was that there were risks involved in reconsidering the testing boxes. However, if the industry wants to reinvestigate and reinvigorate that proposal, the Executive would be happy to consider how it could support that.
We are keen to consider any proposals—we want to be as open and proactive as possible. We are seeking imaginative solutions.
I accept that there are methods that the department has adopted to compensate the scallop fishermen over the past two years, and that is to be commended. However, I ask the Executive to consider the scallop farmers, who have no earning capacity at all and are unable to diversify into other fishing areas as has been proposed. They merit sympathetic consideration.
Similar FIFG is available for scallop farmers, too.
On the point about additional resources for research, the FSA has recently announced nearly £1 million of research work into algal toxins. The results of that research will be published. That is in addition to a wider body of research, the details of which I am unable to give members today.
That brings us to the end of this item. I thank the new Deputy Minister for Rural Development, the Minister for Health and Community Care and their officials for attending the committee.
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Budget 2001-02