Local Government Committee, 28 Jan 2003

Meeting date: Tuesday, January 28, 2003

Official Report 153KB pdf

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Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Bill

Members will have seen among their papers a letter from Peter Peacock regarding the proposal by the Executive to lodge at stage 3 amendments to the Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Bill. The amendments would have the effect of not dissolving the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland, which is one of the bodies that were to be dissolved under the bill.

Given what happened the last time the committee experienced an Executive decision to do something at the last minute, I have put the matter on the agenda today because there are different ways in which to deal with it. We can accept that this was something that the Executive did not foresee and that, therefore, there will be a late amendment to the bill. There is time, however, for us to invite the appropriate minister—Dr Elaine Murray—to come to the committee next week to be cross-examined. We could seek answers to any questions that committee members have and I could thereafter write to Peter Peacock about any decision that the committee makes. We cannot return to stage 2 to change anything, however. We can either accept that, although it is late, the amendments are understandable, or we can ask the minister to come before the committee. It is up to members to decide what we should do.

I understand the convener's preamble and I welcome the fact that Peter Peacock has taken the opportunity to write to the committee. The suggested amendments are of the type that I would expect to see at stage 3. The issue was unforeseen and the suggested changes will be necessary to ensure good legislation. I regret the fact that, obviously, not enough work had been done before the bill was introduced; however, I welcome the fact that the minister has advised us of the amendments. It would be sensible for the amendments to be lodged at stage 3; otherwise, the bill would be incompetent.

At first glance, when I saw that the letter was about the Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Bill, I thought that we should take up the invitation to have the minister here to explain the amendments. However, after reading the letter, I think that it explains the issue regarding the Scottish Charity Law Review Commission. My main concern is that, once again, the Royal Commission on the Ancient and Historical Monuments of Scotland is involved. Perhaps I am being ultra-cautious but, because that body is involved again, I wonder whether we should have the minister here to offer further explanation. The letter explains the fact that the new body would not have charitable status under the bill as drafted, but it is the same body that is at issue again, and that concerns me.

It is a slightly unfortunate coincidence that the body in question is the one about which there has been most controversy at stages 1 and 2 of the bill. I am surprised that the information regarding the loss of its charitable status came to light only at such a late stage. To be frank, the constitution, funding and legal status of a body should be the first things that are examined in consideration of its future. It should not be possible to find out at the last minute that a body has a particular legal status that is disadvantageous. That is the one issue on which we should take evidence from the minister. We should ask her why that was not picked up earlier in the examination of the bodies. Nonetheless, Tricia Marwick is right to say that our only course of action, other than sending £400,000 down to the Treasury—which I am not keen to do—is to accept the amendments.

I agree with Iain Smith. I am concerned that the information has come to light only now—I would have thought that such information would have come to light earlier. I do not know who is responsible for that—whether civil servants or ministers—but we must address the issue.

I do not disagree. However, we could find out the relevant information by writing a letter, rather than by calling the minister before us. We are all agreed that we have to accept the amendments; the question is why joined-up thinking was not applied. When the McFadden report was published, it was clear that there was going to be a problem with non-departmental public bodies that had charitable status. It is not just a Scottish issue; it is a UK issue, and sizeable sums of money are involved.

There really should have been joined-up action within the Executive, but there was not, and we should write to ask why. We should ask for an undertaking that the matter will be fully examined, and that other cross-cutting issues should be addressed properly. I propose that we write, rather than taking up our, and the minister's, time.

It seems that there are three positions. Tricia Marwick has said that questions need to be asked about the matter coming to us so late, but does not see the need for us to see the minister. Others seem to think that the minister should come along to the committee. The other position, which could address both views, is for us to write to the minister, expressing our concerns and thoughts. We could then see whether we get an answer.

I will put forward a fourth point of view. My reason for not wanting to call the minister before is that he would have to come before us next Tuesday. We consider the Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Bill at stage 3 on Wednesday afternoon next week, so we will not really have the opportunity to question the minister about his further thinking on how we can proceed. We could still write to the minister, but I suggest that we invite him to speak to us a couple of weeks down the line, when he has had a chance to think about what went wrong. The Deputy Minister for Finance and Public Services says in his letter:

"We need to discuss this with RCAHMS, but we would expect this to be taken forward later this year."

We need to know how that will happen. Perhaps it would be appropriate to ask the minister questions about the matter in a couple of weeks—but not next Tuesday.

The slight problem with that idea is that the bill will be considered next week. There is the possibility that the committee could write to the Executive and ask for its thoughts, but the matter of the RCAHMS might come up during the debate on Wednesday next week.

Would it be competent for us to do what Tricia Marwick suggests? Our interest in the RCAHMS lies solely in the fact that it is named in a bill on which we are the lead committee. We will have no interest in it after Wednesday next week. If we are going to do anything about the matter, it has to be this week. I am happy to go along with Richard Simpson's suggestion to write to the minister.

I, too, support Richard Simpson's idea. I think it is a better solution.

So the committee—if we are all agreed—supports Richard Simpson's position, which is that we write a letter to the minister, rather than having the minister appear before us.

Can I just check that we are all agreed, and that we are not going to split on the matter in a debate?

Are members agreed that the provisions in the bill covering the RCAHMS have to be withdrawn?

Members indicated agreement.

That is fine. We will not have any split about that.

There is no alternative.

No, there is not.

The alternative is to have the minister come before us.

No—the alternative is that members of the committee vote different ways when the bill gets to Parliament for stage 3.

That is the alternative.

I meant that it is the alternative to Richard Simpson's idea of writing to the minister. Is Tricia Marwick quite happy that we write a letter, as opposed to have the minister come along to the committee?

Absolutely.

Is there anything specific that members want to put in the letter? I do not want us to miss anything out.

We should ask why the situation was not noticed previously.

Yes, and we should ask why the matter was not brought to our attention.

We have spoken about cross-cutting issues. I know that we have responsibility for the Public Appointments and Public Bodies etc (Scotland) Bill, but the Education, Culture and Sport Committee also has an interest in it. I notice that the letter from the minister was addressed to us in view of our consideration of the bill as lead committee. Although it might not be appropriate for this committee to call the minister back before it, such action might be appropriate for the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. Can you find out whether that committee received a copy of the letter?

We have copied the letter to that committee. It will make its own decision. I suspect that time, as it is against us, is against the Education, Culture and Sport Committee. Richard Simpson said it all: the knowledge about the situation with the RCAHMS existed and, as Iain Smith said, questions should have been asked in the first instance about how that body was funded. We can put together a letter making those points. Can we agree to that?

I would also like us to ask the Executive how it intends to take things forward, and what proposals it has for the RCAHMS.

Do we agree to write to the minister a letter along those lines?

Members indicated agreement.

Meeting continued in private until 15:31.