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Chamber and committees

Local Government Committee, 24 Jan 2000

Meeting date: Monday, January 24, 2000


Contents


Ethical Standards in Public Life etc (Scotland) Bill

The Deputy Convener:

Members will recall that we agreed to produce a report on the ethical standards in public life bill that would reflect the evidence that we have heard and would include the Official Report and the minutes of the meeting during which we considered the draft bill.

The Forum of Private Business has sent further correspondence in relation to the bill. Given that it was not notified in time, members should take the correspondence into account and bear in mind that it is relevant at the next stage when members consider amendments.

At our last meeting, we did not go over the main points of the report as the meeting had gone on for quite a long time. We will go through the draft report today. I propose that we go through the report section by section. I would like members to make specific suggestions about changes, rather than general contributions.

Are we agreed that the facts as reported in the introduction are correct?

Members indicated agreement.

Are there any comments on the next part of the report?

Mr Kenneth Gibson (Glasgow) (SNP):

We need to tighten up the bill with regard to the harassment of elected members and officers. The report suggests that members might be harassed for party political reasons, but every member has constituents who cause substantial difficulties. When I was a member of Glasgow City Council, members of a number of parties had problems with certain constituents who came to every surgery and pursued them relentlessly at their homes and places of work. It is important that the bill, as well as providing protection for the public, provides protection for elected members against certain members of the public.

Does your point relate to paragraph 8?

Yes. The paragraph says that:

"in particular circumstances there may be potential for malevolent claims to be made".

That part should be expanded somewhat.

Are members agreed that the point should be expanded?

Members indicated agreement.

Are there any more comments on the report?

Mr Gibson:

With regard to paragraph 17, I think that there was a broad view that MSPs should be included in the legislation. I voiced that opinion a couple of times and I know that others have. I know that, although the minister pointed out the Executive's position, members of quangos and local authorities would be happier if it were clear that MSPs were included in the legislation. If that is not clear, it will look like we are saying "Do as we say, not as we do".

The Deputy Convener:

I feel that that should be explored further. There is some anxiety about the fact that legislation that applies to some does not apply to us. We have to think about the message that is sent by that. Perhaps the Standards Committee will consider the matter.

Eugene Windsor (Committee Clerk):

Could I clarify that point? Has the committee decided that the matter should be explored further or that MSPs should be included?

My view is that it should be explored with a view to including MSPs in the legislation.

Are members agreed on that point?

Members indicated agreement.

On paragraph 18, given the furore that there has been about section 2A of the Local Government Act 1986, it is important that the Executive should define the word "promote". It means different things to different people.

If the teaching guidelines are to be reviewed, it is important to say that they should be seen prior to repeal of the section.

The other day in the chamber, Alex Salmond and Donald Dewar agreed that. That should make everybody feel better.

Last Tuesday, Frank McAveety indicated that that would be the situation. Obviously, we would like that to be clarified in writing as soon as possible, so that we can put this behind us and move forward.

Eugene Windsor:

Can I confirm that the committee is happy with the sentence as it stands, if we add in some comment to the effect that "The committee would like there to be consultation on proposed guidelines before the repeal"?

We would like there to be "consultation and proposed guidelines before the repeal".

The Official Report will reflect the position taken by committee members at our previous meeting, when we discussed this.

Are members happy with paragraph 19?

Members indicated agreement.

We have two choices. We can either bring another draft to a future meeting to be agreed, or we can delegate authority to the clerk and convener to tighten up what has been said. The report could then be progressed more speedily.

I am happy with that.

Dr Sylvia Jackson (Stirling) (Lab):

Could I have two seconds to check that the points that I wanted to make have been covered already? I am sorry, but the reason that I am late is that ScotRail cancelled my train.

In paragraph 11, have we taken on board what Mr Marks was saying the other week about whether the chief investigating officer and the standards committee should be nominated by the Scottish Executive? I do not think that the paragraph is phrased very clearly.

The Deputy Convener:

The committee has directed the Executive's attention to the comments that Mr Marks made, but we have said that we do not agree with his view that the proposals are fundamentally flawed. However, we have asked the Executive to consider the specific points that he made.

In paragraph 15, the roles of the bodies involved need to be clarified, to ensure that there is no overlap between the different organisations.

The paragraph states that

"the Committee is concerned that there may be potential for overlap, and notes that the minister recognises that this is an area which needs to be ‘tightened up.'"

We are concerned specifically with the roles of these organisations—what they will be doing. We need to be very clear about that.

How would you change the wording?

At the end of the paragraph I would say "and notes the potential for overlap and the need to be clear about the roles of the different organisations".

Are we allowed at this point to add things that we have not been able to discuss through evidence received or with the minister? Is it possible to consider other parts of the bill at this stage?

The Deputy Convener:

I would not have thought so. I think that this report should reflect what we have heard so far. It is an attempt to pull together what has been said at our previous meetings, rather than to introduce new issues. This is not the end of the story.

I am happy with that, because there are a number of issues that I would like to raise on which we have not yet been able to take evidence.

That is fine.

Do we agree to give authority to the clerk and the convener to produce a final draft and present it?

Members indicated agreement.