Official Report 240KB pdf
Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the 18th meeting of the Local Government and Communities Committee in 2008. I remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones and BlackBerrys.
Thank you very much, convener, and thank you to the committee for inviting me to discuss the implementation of digital switchover. I know that the committee is aware that digital switchover is reserved to the United Kingdom Government. However, the Scottish Government wants to ensure that it goes smoothly in Scotland. We are focusing strongly on the Scottish Borders, as the Selkirk transmitter that serves that area will switch over in November.
Good morning, minister, and welcome to the wonderful world of the Local Government and Communities Committee.
I have been so looking forward to it.
I am sure that you have.
There were issues with the first switchover, in Whitehaven. I had a chat with Paul Hughes of Digital UK about that, but Anne Dagg and Greig Chalmers—particularly Anne—have discussed the issues in much more detail with Digital UK, which has examined issues from the first switchover and is making changes for the switchover in the Borders. For example, the switchover window has been shortened—it was one month in Whitehaven, but it will be two weeks in the Borders—because Digital UK feels that that is a more focused and tighter approach. I will pass over to Anne Dagg, who is the most appropriate person to tell you about the issues, because she is working closely with Digital UK.
After the Whitehaven switchover, the United Kingdom Government switchover group discussed the report that Digital UK produced. Digital UK realises that Whitehaven is a much smaller area than the Borders and has taken into account the fact that it will have to change its approach in the Borders to ensure that it delivers. John Askew has been active in the Borders as the Border television area manager for some time. We are confident that the adaptations that Digital UK has made after the Whitehaven switchover will satisfy the need to change the approach for a bigger area.
Scottish Government officials and Digital UK are trying to ensure that all the material that Digital UK has compiled is relevant to Scotland and that it is clear and concise. That work is on-going.
Is the Scottish Government happy with the eligibility criteria for assistance from the help scheme—which was discussed in detail last week—or could the scheme be enhanced or tweaked in any way to ensure that it reaches more disadvantaged people?
The help scheme has been applied consistently throughout the UK, apart from for a small group of individuals. The Department for Work and Pensions sets the criteria, which seem to be pretty standard. A small anomaly in relation to care homes has arisen and is being worked on. The issue relates to free personal care in care homes in Scotland, which is not in place south of the border, and arises because attendance allowance is not received by self-funders in care homes. Shona Robison, the Minister for Public Health, first identified the anomaly in October last year. The issue affects a small number of people, but constructive discussions have taken place between the UK Government, including the Scotland Office, and our people. I have no reason to suspect that the issue will not be sorted quickly. We could call that a tweak that is necessary because of Scotland's specific circumstances, but there is no reason to suspect that it will not be sorted, and fairly soon, I hope.
So apart from that anomaly, you are happy with the help scheme's criteria and categories.
I am quite happy. I have not had input on the scheme, as it is delivered by the UK Government, which I am sure has done all the necessary work to ensure that people are targeted properly.
I was glad to hear you say in your introduction that the Government does not want anybody to be disadvantaged as a result of the switchover. I am sure that you are aware that, last week, I raised a great concern that the switchover in the Borders, which is the first in Scotland, will lead to a two-tier TV system. We will have to see how the other switchovers go. As you rightly said, the Selkirk transmitter will come online in November, but so will 11 relay transmitters throughout the Borders. With the Selkirk transmitter, the public will be able to access 40 channels, but with the relay transmitters, people will be able to access only half that number—approximately 20 channels. That was confirmed by Digital UK last week and by the Scottish Consumer Council after questioning from the committee. I asked the witnesses whether there was a technical reason for that, and the answer was that it was a "commercial decision".
There is certainly an issue. Last week, the matter of some people getting 40 channels and some people getting 20 was raised—it is to do with the public service broadcasting side and the commercial side. We are aware of the issue, and we have asked the Scottish Broadcasting Commission to consider it. I assure the committee that, when we get the response from the Scottish Broadcasting Commission—I would not like to pre-empt the response, nor its detail—we will make our concerns known to the UK Government and the Scotland Office if we find that anyone in Scotland has been disadvantaged.
I respect that answer, minister, but, with all due respect, it does not go far enough towards what I have suggested. Although the Scottish Broadcasting Commission and the Scottish Government have some powers and influence, they do not have the powers to influence the situation enough. Only Westminster can help to deliver in this instance and ensure a robust, even and fair service to members of the public.
I presume that, following its deliberations, the committee will also write to Westminster. In conjunction with and alongside the committee, I am more than happy to relay those concerns, which have come out clearly in the evidence that the committee has taken.
Thank you, minister.
We have mentioned the help scheme. Does the Scottish Government have any information about the take-up of it? Has the Government liaised with other bodies, in particular UK bodies, about that? Questions have been raised about whether the take-up of the scheme has been high. Do you view it as part of the Scottish Government's role to promote the help scheme?
I will ask Anne Dagg or Greig Chalmers to speak about the detail of what has gone before. In Scotland, the help scheme is being very much targeted as areas come on board and as the work is carried out, so the Borders is being particularly targeted at the moment.
Whitehaven is a point of reference to which we can return. Of those individuals who were eligible for it, 28 per cent took up the help scheme offer—that is 10 per cent of households in Whitehaven. The report that Digital UK produced after the Whitehaven switchover said that the value of the help scheme should be made clearer to people. It was a question of what people got out of the £40 subscription fee to the help scheme, when they can buy a Freeview box for £10, as Jim Tolson said.
My other point for the minister is—predictably—on Gaelic television and Freeview. There has been some discussion about the availability of the new digital channel. Has the Scottish Government had any involvement in that side of things?
I am concerned about that, too. It is not yet definite that the Gaelic channel will be on Freeview—it still has to make some representations to the BBC trust later in the year. We have put a significant amount of funding into the new channel, and we want it to be as widely available as possible. I recently met the Gaelic Media Service and the BBC trust, and the channel was long and well discussed. We will continue to do whatever we can to support the allocation of Freeview space to the Gaelic channel.
What can you do about that, apart from holding discussions?
We have to keep impressing on the BBC trust just how important the Gaelic channel is to so many people in Scotland. When the BBC trust carried out tests on the channel to approve it, everyone worked very hard, but I sometimes felt—although I do not mean to be negative about what was done—that what the Gaelic channel means was not fully appreciated. It is not just about language; it is about culture and the promotion of something that is very much part of Scotland. We have a role, in conjunction with the Gaelic Media Service, in constantly impressing on the BBC, the BBC trust and Ofcom how important and how much a part of our culture the channel is.
What discussions have you had with the Minister for Communities and Sport on the role of voluntary organisations in supporting digital switchover?
We have, at officer level, been discussing those things at great length. John Swinney has taken up the mantle of keeping local authorities informed, and we will be sending a circular out to all local care homes. I will be doing something else very soon—I cannot remember quite what it is, but something else is coming through. If you are asking about direct discussions between me and the Minister for Communities and Sport, we have not had such discussions. Discussions are, however, taking place across Government covering all portfolios, because input from all portfolios is required.
It might be worth while, whether at ministerial level or elsewhere, having further discussions. Although a formal support structure can be put in place to give people advice, trusted intermediaries—as I described them last week—such as church groups and local voluntary care workers can come into people's homes to ensure that they are not given poor advice or, in the worst cases, ripped off. That structure could be used effectively in a proactive way, rather than perhaps being used later on. I seek reassurance on that.
The thing that is happening in the near future, which slipped my mind for a minute, is that a circular will go out to all local authorities and landlords.
You mention circulars and letters to local authorities, but their reach will depend on who the local authorities speak to. They might be left at a formal level, and the message might not go out to local communities and individuals.
Digital UK has set up the Digital Outreach programme, which is, as I understand it, working with third sector organisations to reach people who might not be eligible for the help scheme, as well as people who are, to ensure that they know about it. The organisation involved in the Border area is The Bridge. I am not sure whether Digital Outreach was active in Whitehaven, but I am sure that there was something like it—it might have had a different name.
I undertake to pull that information together and have a good look at it, to see whether it can be improved by additional input from the Scottish Government. I will send the committee a note on what we intend to do.
Following a mystery shopper exercise, the Scottish Consumer Council expressed concern to us that the information that people are given might not be good enough and might even verge on mis-selling. For example, people were told that they would need a new aerial and equipment. Digital UK told us that it has tried to address the matter with retailers. Is there also a role for the Scottish Government and local authorities in ensuring that there is no mis-selling? People are taking significant decisions to buy televisions and equipment that they expect to see them through three, four or five years—perhaps more in hope than expectation, given some of the equipment. It is important that people are given good information and are not mis-sold products that they do not need. How can the Government and local authorities in Scotland use their powers to ensure that retailers deliver the information that we expect them to deliver and do not engage in the shoddy practice of mis-selling?
The Scottish Consumer Council's report "Digital Diaries: consumers' experiences in the run-up to digital TV switchover in the Scottish Borders" highlighted such issues, some of which are serious. In December, our officials passed the report to those at the BBC who deal with the help scheme. Greig Chalmers has been considering the matter closely and will talk about what we are doing about it.
We have tried to fulfil the role of connecting Digital UK with the right parts of the Scottish Government and the Scottish public sector. We have ensured and will continue to ensure that Digital UK can pass on information to trading standards officers through local authorities, and perhaps in future through the Convention of Scottish Local Authorities, to ensure that local authorities are alert to mis-selling, which correctly was highlighted in the report to which the minister referred.
I think that I am right in saying that training for retailers can be accessed through Digital UK.
I think that that is right.
Does the circular to local authorities that the minister mentioned a couple of times—I presume that we will be given a copy—contain a section on the role and responsibility of trading standards officers in relation to misinformation and mis-selling?
We will certainly want to include such information.
Is it not currently included?
The circular is being prepared.
Will there be discussion with local authorities and COSLA about how they find the resources to enable them to deal with all the issues and ensure that trading standards officers are informed? Is consideration being given to funding and support for local authorities? Is that a priority that will attract additional moneys?
The Scottish Government is not in a position to allocate funding to support the digital switchover. The UK Government is responsible and it has not allocated any additional resources to local authorities.
You said that you are concerned that mis-selling would go on. Is that not an issue for trading standards, irrespective of the resource issue?
Of course it is, but, with respect, that is a separate issue from funding local authorities to do the work. Local authorities are responsible for that work through discussion with the UK Government, and we are happy to facilitate how that is financed. We will do everything we can to help that process.
A circular will go out that says that this is a priority area and the Government is concerned that people will be mis-sold products.
We will send out a circular detailing issues that we feel are relevant to local authorities. The issue that you raise will be one of the relevant details in that circular.
But not too relevant.
That is not what I said, convener. I said that it will be one of the issues in the circular that we are sending out that contains relevant points.
We are all judged by our actions, minister, not just by what we say.
Minister, I was pleased earlier when you said that you want to ensure that no one in Scotland will be disadvantaged during the digital switchover. However, I feel that some people in my constituency are being disadvantaged. Last week, I raised the issue of people in my constituency and, I believe, in the convener's constituency who have bought digital equipment but will not be able to get a digital signal until about 2010-11. Paul Hughes of Digital UK said that those areas will get a digital signal once the switchover has been done. However, those areas currently get an analogue signal, so it is not as if they are not getting any signal at all, although 1.11 per cent do not get an analogue signal. Why can they not get digital? What steps will the Scottish Government take to ensure that our constituents who have bought equipment will be in a position to get digital before 2010-11. Jim Tolson talked about 20 or 40 channels; in my constituency, people have bought equipment but they are getting no channels. What steps will be taken to ameliorate that situation?
On the technical question, I do not think that I can give any reassurance that I can ameliorate the situation. However, I am more than happy to make inquiries of Digital UK and anyone else who is relevant.
The roll-out of the switchover has been developed in such a way as to allow it to be staggered, based on areas that will interfere least with other signals and other countries. The Borders region is least likely to do that, so it is going first.
Right. I mean, they cannot even get DAB radio in Largs. It seems to be wholly unfair. We talked about mis-selling earlier. I do not think that people in that area were informed that they would not be able to get a digital signal until some time in the future. I have been going back and forth on this issue since October, and the BBC has not been particularly helpful. I hope that the Scottish Government can make its views felt a bit more and try to expedite a solution. All that we are suggesting is that our constituents get the same level of service as everybody else. Frankly, it is not acceptable for people to have to wait more than two years when 84 per cent of households already have the service well before the switchover.
There are online services where people can enter their postcode and check whether they can get DAB radio and digital television. Digital radio is a separate matter. The digital switchover will not mean that people receive digital radio on a DAB radio set; it will mean that they can get digital radio stations on their televisions.
If you pass more details to us, we can write to the appropriate people to express concern about the fact that the transmitters are not being upgraded sooner.
I will do that, minister.
As there are no further questions, I thank the minister and her team for their attendance this morning.
Thank you.
Meeting suspended.
On resuming—