Welfare Reform Committee

Meeting date: Tuesday, September 10, 2013

Official Report 487KB pdf

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Your Say—Bedroom Tax

The fourth item this morning is our your say session on the bedroom tax. Your say sessions to date have proved to be an invaluable way for the committee to hear from people across Scotland about their views and personal experiences of the new welfare system. I welcome today’s witnesses, who are here to speak about their experiences of the bedroom tax. They are Anne Bradley, Lyndsay Ferry and Scott Wilson.

Committee members have met Anne before, at our informal committee meeting in Glasgow in April. Lyndsay is here today to speak on behalf of her mother, Linda Kennedy. I invite witnesses to read their submissions to the committee. Following that, members will be invited to discuss the witnesses’ experiences. We will start with Lyndsay.

The submission reads:

“My name is Linda Kennedy. I am 58 years old. I have not worked for the past eight years. Six of those years, I was a full time carer to my late husband who passed away on 25 February 2011. We were offered help with the care, however, we both decided I would take care of him, giving him the dignity he deserved.

Like many others we always worked. My late husband had a saying ‘everybody must put into the pot, if they don’t, there will be no pot’ (tax and national insurance). I still have those values.

At present, I suffer from anxiety and panic attacks but I am getting help for this. My total income is £72.07 per week (which is my late husband’s work pension). The powers that be take £1.07 off as the government says I only need £71 per week to live off.

My problem is that I live in a 3 bedroom house alone. My kids have moved out and into their own homes. I had a visit from my housing officer telling me it will be just under £100 per month extra, but the rent rise in April could take me to just over £100 per month. He informed me I could either take in family members or a lodger(s) to help pay the bedroom tax or move to a smaller house.

I fear what the future holds and question what do I do next, where do I go, where will I end up? I have lost everything, my husband and now potentially my family home.

I know I am only the tenant, however, I class this house as my home with many great memories. I know my neighbours and they know me. Ultimately, I feel safe here.

To end this narrative, I was told ‘well you should have bought your house’. Like many others, we worked hard, paid the bills and helped the family through their formative years and education. I refuse to beat myself up for being widowed and not a homeowner. Both my kids are fortunate to be in full time employment and not on benefits. They feel angry and are disillusioned that their mother can’t get a bit of respite from ‘the pot’.”

Thank you very much, Lyndsay. Do you want to go next, Scott?

I would like to tell you about my experiences of the welfare system, particularly how the underoccupancy charge will affect me and my family.

My name is Scott Wilson. I am 46 years old and was diagnosed with young-onset Parkinson’s five years ago. I had always worked hard since I was 16 but, because of Parkinson’s, I had to give up the successful gardening business that I had built up over many years and my decade of service as a reserved firefighter in South Lanarkshire where I live.

One of my Parkinson’s symptoms is a very severe tremor that got worse over time and did not respond to medication. I had to have brain surgery, which has helped to control the tremors, but I still have other Parkinson’s symptoms. As Parkinson’s is a progressive condition, my condition will inevitably deteriorate and stress makes my symptoms much worse.

When I gave up my business, I had to apply for benefits to help support myself and my family. I have a 17-year old daughter and a 10-year old son, who has a severe long-term medical condition. The last thing that I wanted was to have to rely on Government benefits, but I felt that at least I had worked hard and had contributed to the system before I became ill. I had lots of support from the money matters advice service in Lanark, which made sure that I claimed the benefits to which I was entitled, including incapacity benefit, income support and an indefinite disability living allowance award. Although life was not easy and although I knew that, because of my health, I had an uncertain future, the knowledge that I could stay in my home and had some money that I could depend on made it much easier to cope.

However, since the Welfare Reform Act 2012 came in, I feel stressed and anxious at the thought that someone with no knowledge of my condition might reassess my benefits and determine that I am fit for work or that I am not affected by Parkinson’s and I should lose the benefits that I depend on. I was broken-hearted to give up my business and would love to be well enough to work, but my Parkinson’s makes that impossible.

I also recently separated from my partner of nearly 20 years, partly because of the stress that Parkinson’s has put on my family life and relationships. Although it has been a very difficult time for all of us, we have maintained regular contact and my ex-partner and I continue to share the parenting of our children. Things have been made worse by the fact that I have had to apply for some different benefits and in particular by the underoccupancy charge—the bedroom tax—that came into force in April.

I have lived in my home for 25 years, but I had to sell it back to the council because of financial hardship. I was shocked when a council employee phoned and told me that my housing benefit would be cut to the equivalent of that for a one-bedroom home and that I would have to find the additional money from my benefits to pay for two bedrooms. I was stressed enough about how I was going to pay for my heating, food, transport and other necessities and that information floored me.

When I asked for more information, the council employee told me that I had three options. First, the council could look at rehoming me in a one-bedroom flat. Given that there are very few of those flats in my home town, I could be relocated somewhere else many miles away. That would take me away from my support system, which includes not only my friends and family but the health centre where my day-to-day health needs are dealt with and where the staff know me and are able to give me the help that I need. I might not even be able to access a one-bedroom flat in another town as there are many more people needing one-bedroom homes than there are flats available. Secondly, the council could also look at my house sharing with someone else on benefits. That would mean sharing my home with a stranger whose background I did not know and possibly exposing my children and me to risks. Lastly, if I chose to stay in my house, I would have to find the shortfall in the rent myself from my other benefits.

I asked the person on the phone how my daughter and expected grandchild or my disabled son could stay with me if I moved to a one-bedroom flat or shared my home. I asked where they were expected to sleep and was told, “Have you ever heard of inflatable beds?” That took my breath away. I was literally speechless that the love and support of my children and their need to spend quality time with their father could be so casually dismissed.

I inquired about what would happen when my Parkinson’s gets worse. As Parkinson’s is an incurable degenerative disease, I will progressively become more disabled and I am likely to need more support over time. Because I am no longer with my ex-partner, I may need a live-in carer to support me. I asked where a carer would stay. The reply was, “We can cross that bridge when we come to it.” I may now be unable to make any plans for the future until I am really unwell, when I might be unable to access the type of accommodation that I would need.

I was stunned by the lack of sympathy and understanding for people in my position. I am very anxious about the whole situation and I am concerned about the effect that that is having on my Parkinson’s. This policy seems to be being rushed through. It feels as though the Government in Westminster has not thought through the consequences for people like me, who the benefits system is supposed to help. I cannot believe that this is really being suggested and hope that people will take notice, do what is right and call a halt to the process.

I read an article in the Evening Times about the bedroom tax and I believed then, as I do now, that the tax is a breach of everyone’s human rights and should be dumped.

I rented a two-bedroom flat from Queens Cross Housing Association and letters were delivered from the housing office with advice on the bedroom tax, cost and payment methods. The letters informed me that the tax would cost £43.64 a month. That went up to £47.64 a month. The amount will rise with each rent increase.

I contacted the housing association to request to be moved to a smaller property and to make it aware that I wished to stay in the same area. The housing association submitted a completed transfer application for a move and an application form for discretionary housing payment. I was advised by the housing association that it did not know when I would be likely to secure a transfer as there were no smaller properties available in the area in which I wished to live.

It was suggested that I could take in a lodger, but I informed the housing association that that was not something that I would ever consider and that I would never take a stranger into my home. If I were to have taken in a lodger, the housing benefit would have been reduced even further because I had someone living with me. That would have affected my employment and support allowance and created a further struggle as, after paying direct debits, there is not much of the ESA left.

I believed that I should not have to pay this tax as I was willing to move but was unable to do so because there were no smaller properties available. The struggle will become much worse when the universal credit is introduced. The payments for rent and the benefits are to be paid into one bank account and it will be left to the claimant to pay the rent.

I believe that I was forced out of my home and prevented from having a family life as I shall be unable to have family members stay overnight or at weekends. As there were no smaller properties in Glasgow, I believed that I would be forced to look further afield to find a suitable smaller property to rent and that I would have to apply for a private let, which would have created even more of a problem.

The bedroom tax is unjust and, because I believed that I would have to move to where I could get a smaller property to rent, it has separated me from my family.

In July, I viewed a smaller property, still in the area in which I wished to live. I was given one night to decide whether to accept or decline the offer. I was advised that, if I declined the offer, it was unlikely that I would be granted DHP a second time. Having been advised of that, I believed that I had no choice—I feel that I was forced to accept the property. Accepting the property created a further struggle as I was not in a good financial position to pay for a move within the 28 days given. Had it not been for my family, I would have been unable to move. I now owe my family a lot of money.

Since moving into the property, I have become isolated. At my previous property, I spoke to and met neighbours every day. Since moving to the new address, I never speak to or meet anyone. I am not happy in the new flat, as it is a deck-access property and people pass my door at all times, day and night, which makes me uncomfortable. I cannot get used to it. The property is so small that it could fit inside my previous flat. I am not happy with the property, as it is not as enclosed as my previous flat was. Although my previous flat was 12 floors up, I would not have moved but for the bedroom tax. I do not believe that I will be able to settle in the new flat.

10:15

Thanks very much, Anne. I know that it is difficult for you all to have to recount your experiences but, as with all the your say witnesses from whom we have heard, the evidence that you have given us has been extremely helpful. It has given us the opportunity to ask questions of you to get a greater understanding of the issues.

Anne mentioned that discretionary housing payment was involved in her situation, but Lyndsay and Scott did not say whether they—or, in Lyndsay’s case, her mother—had any discussions about DHP with the housing officials who contacted them. Advice was given, but were offers of alternative housing made? The housing officials said that that was an option, but did they make an offer of alternative housing? When they contacted you, did they discuss additional support through discretionary housing payments?

As far as I am aware, my mum got an initial three-month discretionary payment, but that was about it. I do not believe that any offers of alternative one-bedroom flats were made to her, so it was up to me and my brother to come up with the goods to pay the rent.

I was not offered anything at all. At the time, the new system had just come out and the person I spoke to knew very little about it, so the information that I got from him was quite sparse. I know for a fact that in my area we are lucky if there are a dozen one-bedroom houses. It would just not be feasible for me to move from a two-bedroom house into a one-bedroom house; I would not be able to fit all my furniture and everything into a one-bedroom house.

It would also involve additional costs when you are already under pressure because of the cut in benefits. If you had to consider removal costs or the cost of storage, that would make it practically impossible to do what is being demanded of you.

Anne, you have been through the process, and it was obviously not a comfortable one for you. I can see the trauma that it caused you.

I am not comfortable with the move that I had.

In your discussions with housing association officials, they made you an offer, but was it made to you as part of a package, or was it a take-it-or-leave-it offer?

It was a take-it-or-leave-it offer. If I had not moved, I would have had to find the money to pay the bedroom tax and I would not have got DHP. I was awarded DHP from April to September, but when I was offered the new house on 26 July, I had to decide overnight whether to take it or leave it. If I had not taken it, I would not have got DHP help again.

So you did not feel that the officials took into account your circumstances—it was just that there was a flat available, which you had to take if you did not want to lose out.

Yes, that is how I believe it was.

My first question is for Lyndsay Ferry. Thank you for coming to give us the benefit of your evidence on your mother’s experience. It is clear from the submission that your mother provided, which you read out for us, that she views the place where she lives as her home, as I think that anyone would. She now feels that she could lose that family home. Is she actively looking to move elsewhere, or is she simply concerned that she might have to?

No, she is not actively looking at the moment. My brother and I have decided that we will have to come up with extra money. This deeply unpopular policy has directly affected her and, as we do not want to put her in this position, we have had to help out.

So the burden has fallen on you and your brother. I presume that you have your own families to look after.

Exactly.

It is clear from the statement that you read out that your parents worked hard over the course of their lives and felt that the system was there to support them when they required such support. How do you as a family feel that the system is working in that regard?

I totally agree with my mum. My mum and dad always worked but, through no fault of her own, my mum has now been left in this unfortunate situation.

But, given their—and indeed your—understanding of the system, do you think that the system has matched those expectations? How do you feel about the current social security or welfare system? Is the pot there for people who have contributed to draw on?

I do not think so. That is my personal opinion.

Okay.

Scott, you highlighted in your statement the three options that were presented by the council employee you spoke to. Clearly you are concerned that, even if you were looking to be rehoused, such a possibility might not be realistic because of the lack of available stock. Let us assume, however, that you were to be rehoused somewhere away from where you live. Where in South Lanarkshire do you live?

I live in Biggar.

Say you were rehoused in Hamilton or East Kilbride—

I would not go—I would fight it.

But let us say that that was the only place you were offered. What impact would that have on your family life?

It would be devastating. My son has a disability—in fact, he is going to have a very serious operation in the next couple of weeks—and I cannot live 20 miles away from him. I need to be close to him. I also need support from my family, my friends and everyone who knows me, knows my condition and knows how to deal with it. If I were told that I had to move 20 miles away, it would be devastating. It is ridiculous and terrible to be told that, just because the Government has a shortfall in two and three-bedroom houses, I have to move out because the house that I have stayed in for 25-plus years is underoccupied.

Clearly, that would have a severe impact on your family. Do you get any sense that that has been taken on board or taken account of?

They have not looked at that at all. My son and I have medical conditions; a few months ago, I became a grandfather for the first time; and I am being expected to destroy my family life all for the sake of having to move to a one-bedroom house. I am afraid that I will not be going—I am going to fight it all the way.

Thank you, Scott.

Anne, when the clerks told me that you had got a new place, I was going to begin by congratulating you. However, having heard your evidence, I do not think that congratulations are appropriate. You have told us a little bit about how the move has affected you, but can you tell us a bit more about where you are now and how being rehoused in your new place has affected you?

As I have said, I am not happy with it. If it had not been for the bedroom tax, I would still be in my previous flat. It has also cost my family financially. If they had not helped me, I would not have been able to move. However, I now owe them money.

When I got the flat, it was in a terrible state. The housing association gave me a paint package, but it has not worked out and I am just not happy with the flat.

If you do not feel comfortable about talking about this, please do not do so, but I believe that you said that you felt isolated in your new place.

In my last place, I met and spoke to people every single day. I have been in the new place since 26 August—I think that that was the date, because that was when the 28 days were up—but I have not met anyone at all. I do not meet people; I have not spoken to anyone; and I feel totally isolated.

I am really sorry to hear that. However, given the shortage of accommodation for people to downsize to—whether or not they want to—some might say that you were one of the lucky ones. How would you respond to that?

I would say no, I am not. I got offered a one-bedroom flat, but it is so poky that I cannot fit anything in. I am not happy with it. It is just a piece of nonsense offering people a property like that. It is so small that I could fit it inside my last property.

Thanks a lot for your evidence today, folks. First, I have a couple of questions for Lindsay Ferry around the evidence that your mum has given that her total income is £72.07 a week and that £1.07 was hauled back by the Government. Obviously, she has housing benefit above that.

That is correct.

Does your mum get anything else from the state in that regard?

Nothing at all.

The situation is that she gets your dad’s pension and it takes £1.07 back.

Yes.

I think that it was right to clarify that, because one of the things that the Westminster Government seems to think is that people get huge amounts of money on benefit. However, the situation here is that your mum is on no benefit other than your dad’s work pension and housing benefit.

Please feel free not to answer this, but what effect does having to make the payments that you and your brother have decided to make have on your family and your brother’s family? What do you miss out on because you have to do that?

I am expecting a baby, so the extra money would have gone to the baby, but I have to help my mum.

How does your mum feel about that? We know that she has anxiety and panic attacks at the moment. From my perspective, I know that if my folks had to get money off us, that would make them very uncomfortable.

It is embarrassing for her and makes her very uncomfortable, but my brother and I have decided that she is in her own home and that is where she will stay. If that is the only way round it, then that is what we have to do.

So you have to miss out for that to happen.

Yes, unfortunately.

That obviously has an effect on her, too.

Yes.

Thank you very much for that.

Scott, it seems that, to begin with, the folk at the council were rather unhelpful, to say the least, and quite cheeky in some of the things that they said to you, for example about inflatable beds. What would be the effect on your son if you had to move elsewhere? I know that you said that you have not done so, but if you reached that position, what effect would that have on him?

Just now, it would have a devastating effect on my son because I have had a recent split from my partner of 20 years. My son is 10 years old and that has been hard enough for him to cope with. They moved house because I could not afford to rent privately anywhere in my area, because it is that expensive. It would destroy him if I had to go 20 miles away. I live only 3 miles from him just now, so it is easy for me to get to see him. I see him through the week and at weekends. It is hard enough for me to try to pay for my heating, electric and gas and everything else, including council tax, but if I had to stay 20 miles away, I would then have to fork out a fortune for diesel to go back and forward to see him. It would devastate him, but it would also devastate me not seeing him. It would be quite bad for him, I would say.

You talked about being close to your own support networks. Obviously, you provide a support network for your son; you are part of his support network. If you were not there or nearby to help cope with your son’s situation, what kind of position would that put your ex-partner in?

It would put an awful lot of pressure on my ex-partner. Because of his condition, my son has to go in and out of hospital a lot to get quite serious operations done. Sometimes, we are on 24-hour call from the hospital—it could tell us that a slot is coming up in 24 hours for my son to go in and get his operation. If I am 20 miles away and they get the 24-hour call, my ex-partner will be at her wits’ end. She is finding it hard enough with my son. She is his full-time carer. The situation puts all the pressure on to both of us and we both feel the pressure equally, but I would say that it would be devastating for her.

10:30

Anne, you talked about moving and your family bearing the costs of that move. I do not know what those costs are; you might wish to say and you might not. Was there no offer of support or help to meet those moving costs from any other organisation?

No, there was no offer from anyone.

None at all?

None at all.

So if it was not for the goodness of your family—

I would probably be homeless now, because I had already signed the lease for the new flat and the tenancy on my previous flat had ended. If I had not had help to move, I would not have been able to move in and I would have been homeless.

Thank you.

Convener, I have a quick question for all the witnesses. The bedroom tax is affecting not only you as individuals—or your mum in your case, Lyndsay—but your families, too. Would it be fair to say that?

Yes.

Yes.

Most definitely.

If it was not for families helping in some way, you would be in an even worse position than you are at present.

Yes.

Yes.

Yes.

Thank you, and thank you convener.

Lyndsay, the thing that really struck me was when your mum said, towards the end of her submission, “I know I am only the tenant.”

That is how she feels.

Absolutely. It is very sad to hear someone saying that. How long did your family live in that house?

I think it was about 14 years.

From what you said about your dad having worked and then become ill, I presume that your family paid their rent on time, did all the right stuff, and considered that they had a family home. Now your mum feels that it is not a home any more.

That is right.

Scott, you said in your submission that you had had to sell the house back to the council. Was that under the mortgage to rent scheme?

It was, yes.

You felt that that was a way of keeping your home and family together when things went wrong.

Yes. Rather than putting the house on the market and looking for another one—I knew that I would not be able to find a house in my home town because of the prices that they were going for—I thought that the mortgage to rent scheme was the only way in which I could stay in my family home. The way that I had done everything to the house and decorated—even the colour of the paint that I had put on a wall—meant that that was my personal house and my space.

It was your home.

Yes, it was my home.

Do you now feel like Linda Kennedy—Lyndsay’s mum—that all of a sudden what has always been your home and the place that you have fought to keep—

Yes; it is like someone wants to take it away from me and give it to someone else. They want to rip out the kitchen, bathroom and everything else that I have put in and give it to someone else just to make it easier for the Government to claw back some money.

Anne, have you lost your home?

I have not lost my home.

But you lost what you considered to be your home and you have moved to somewhere that you said you do not feel is like home.

It is definitely not home. There is no way that I could make the flat that I am in now into my home. I am not comfortable there.

You mentioned in your submission—I think that you talked about it earlier, too—your view that the policy is a breach of human rights and that it has a devastating effect on folk. You might have heard the convener talking about how we tried to see the United Nations reporter on human rights. If you could sit face to face with someone like that, what would you say to them about what has happened to you?

It is not just me. The bedroom tax is a nightmare for everybody who is involved with it. It is against human rights and it makes people lose their homes. It takes away half the money that I have to live on. That is not right. The bedroom tax is a nightmare. It is unjust, it is against everybody’s human rights and it should be abolished.

Would either of the other witnesses like to comment on the fact that we are talking about people’s homes, not just a house that they happen to get a shot of for a wee while?

I have stayed in the house for more than 25 years, so it is my home. I would not know how to go about starting again in another home. The upheaval that the bedroom tax causes not only for the families but for everybody, including friends and others, is ridiculous—it is terrible.

If my mum did not have me or my brother, I fear that the situation would be devastating for her mental health and wellbeing. Everything is—

Yes. Thanks very much. I do not know what else to say to you guys. It is hard to take in that we are sitting in a country in which a Government in London is imposing homelessness on people.

I, too, thank you all for coming to give evidence to us. I thank Lyndsay Ferry for bringing us some good news with your pregnancy. Congratulations.

Thank you very much.

That news cheered us up.

You do not have to answer if you do not want to, but can you tell us what happened to your mum with regard to rent arrears? You have all responded in different ways. You and your brother are helping your mother. Had she already got herself into arrears or was she simply feeling anxiety? Alternatively, was she making sacrifices in other parts of her expenditure?

Do you mean prior to the bedroom tax?

No, I mean after it was introduced. Did the bedroom tax cause her to go into arrears, or did she cut back on her other expenditure to ensure that she paid it?

As far as I am aware she did not go into arrears, but I could not confirm that.

She was struggling to pay, but she was managing it.

She is struggling to live as it is, if I can put it that way. Her submission details how much she lives on. If they think that that is acceptable—

Most of us would look at the figures and wonder how she could cut any of her expenses.

Did your mother take any advice on income maximisation? Did she go to a citizens advice bureau or benefits adviser to find out whether she might be eligible for any other benefits?

As far as I am aware, I think that she did and was told that no other benefits were available to her.

Anne, your family helped with the move. You felt that a gun was put to your head to make you move. Would you have found yourself in arrears if you had not taken the offer of a smaller property?

Yes. I would have ended up in rent arrears, because I would not have been able to afford to pay the bedroom tax.

But in your case, you were careful not to get into that situation.

Yes.

One of the responses that the Parliament is supporting is to try to provide further advice to people. A lot of people do not claim all the benefits to which they are entitled and get all the help that is available. Did you go to a citizens advice bureau or to the benefits advice people?

No; it was my housing officer who spoke about maximising my money. There is no way that I could have cut anything from the money that I had going out to afford the bedroom tax.

There was nothing else that you were not claiming.

No. There was nothing else that I was entitled to.

Anne Bradley has moved and Lyndsay Ferry and her brother are helping her mum, but Scott is still in the same situation. What will happen to you? Will you find yourself in arrears soon?

I most probably am in arrears. I have not had a letter from the council yet, but I am expecting one. The tax is about £10 a week so people think that that is nothing, but it is a lot when you get only a pittance to live on. We are coming into wintertime and, given that gas and electricity prices are going up all the time, it is costing me an arm and a leg to, more or less, try to keep myself alive and to keep seeing my family. When something has to give, it has to give. In my mind, my bedroom tax is the last thing that I want to pay.

I think that the humanity of the situation is clear to us all. One of the things that the committee will have to think about is what we can do to help, given that the bedroom tax has been introduced by a separate Government. Is there anything in particular? Income maximisation clearly does not work in the sense that you are claiming what you are entitled to—or your mum is doing that in your case, Lyndsay.

I have been to the money matters advice service and the people there were great. They helped me with finding out what benefits I was entitled to and all the benefits that I could get—everything like that. They were really good, but it comes to a point where they cannot drag out money that I am not entitled to. When the Government is asking me to give back some of the money that I am entitled to, it just does not make sense. Why give it to me in the first place? It could just say, “We won’t give you that money; that’s towards your house,” instead of giving me the money and then asking for it back.

It is a bit unfair to ask you this question, because you are at the sharp end, as it were, and you do not make the policy, but is there anything that is not being done that you think we in the Scottish Parliament or the local authority could do to help?

Scrap it.

That would be the thing that—

I know that they have to claw back money somehow, but they are doing it by clawing back the money from the people who most need it—the people who need the benefits and need the home security that they have. They struggle enough with the security. If they did not have that, they would be devastated.

Have you claimed discretionary housing payments at all?

I am unsure whether I have or not, to be quite honest.

Anne, did you claim the discretionary payments?

Yes.

I think that you say in your written evidence that you were advised that you would not be able to claim DHP again.

I was advised that I would not get it a second time if I refused the flat that I am in now.

Thank you.

Thank you all for coming along today and sharing with us what is really very personal information. In an ideal world, you would not have to do that, and the fact that you are prepared to do it is indicative of how strongly you feel about the injustice of this tax. Scott, you said that it should be scrapped. I would love to see it scrapped, but we do not have the power to scrap it. That lies with a Government elsewhere.

I want to pick up on an issue that two of you raised in your written evidence. Lyndsay, I want to raise the advice that was given—which follows the Westminster policy—that your mother should consider taking in a lodger. What do you and your brother feel about that as a matter of policy? That is the policy dictated by people such as the UK Secretary of State for Work and Pensions and his minister, Lord Freud, who presumably do not have these difficulties in life, speaking on behalf of the Westminster Government. What did you feel when you heard that that was what your mother was advised to do?

I was kind of left in shock. She has lost my dad and then been told to take in a stranger, and they think that that is normal. I am afraid that we are just not accepting it.

The situation was presented to your mother, with all the difficulties that she has been through over recent years. Was it discussed among your wider circle? When the immediate family, the extended family, friends, neighbours and all the people in her circle heard about it, what did they feel? The idea is that the solution to a situation that she did nothing to create is for a 58-year-old widow to take in a lodger. What did they feel about that?

Like us, they were totally appalled.

Absolutely. I want to ask Anne Bradley about the same issue, which, as far as I recall, she rightly raised when we met her in April. In your submission, aside from questioning the decency or otherwise of such a policy, you question its efficacy. In your situation, had you proceeded down the route of getting a lodger, it would have cost you financially rather than helped the situation. Will you expand on that a wee bit, please?

10:45

I was getting full housing benefit before the bedroom tax came in but, once it was introduced, that benefit was reduced. If I had taken in a lodger, the amount would have been reduced even more because there would have been a second person living in the flat with me. Leaving aside the fact that, as Lyndsay said, I would not take a stranger into my home, I would not have taken in a lodger on those grounds.

It is clear to you from your situation that taking in a lodger was not, in any event, a practicable solution because that would have placed you in a worse situation than you otherwise would have been in.

Yes.

I turn to Scott Wilson. I want to air two issues, the first of which is shared parenting. It is not clear from your written information whether that is subject to a legal agreement or a practical arrangement. Therefore, there may be different consequences in light of the type of arrangement in place. However, you have shared parenting for your son, who has, as we have heard, particular needs. As a matter of practicality, how would it be possible for you to carry out your parental duties if you were forced to move to a one-bedroom flat and to use an inflatable bed? Would your son be able to lie on an inflatable bed? Would that be safe for him, given his needs?

I would have to give up my bed for my son and sleep on the inflatable mattress, but that is just not practical for me. I get little enough sleep as it is, so I would not do that.

There is also your young daughter. I take it that it is she who recently had your grandchild. Congratulations—at least some nice information has come out this morning.

You could not have your daughter and your grandchild to stay at the same time in a one-bedroom flat, and certainly not at the same time that your son was staying, so you could not enjoy your family together and the siblings could not enjoy their time together.

Exactly. Laws have been introduced under which females and males of certain ages are not allowed to stay in the same room. Therefore, how do they expect a 10-year-old boy and an 18-year-old girl to share a room? Such issues were not thought about, but they affect people such as me and cause stress. I worry enough about my family without having to worry about a stupid tax.

You were diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease some years ago. Current medical information tells us that the condition reacts to stress and that its deleterious impact can be felt because of additional stress in a person’s life, so—as you rightly point out—the situation that you are in is not good for your health. Looking to the future, the condition is degenerative, as you mentioned; that is also stated unequivocally by the medical profession. Why then do you think that it would be possible for a Government—in this case the Westminster Government—to set a policy that, in effect, says that it is not a degenerative condition and that, notwithstanding all the medical evidence to the contrary, there will not be a time when you will need an extra bedroom for a carer? How can a Government get away with that?

I am totally disgusted. To go off topic a little bit, why should I have to go for an interview to see whether I am fit and able to work when I have a degenerative disease? The condition will not get better; if anything, it will get worse. However, I am being asked to go every three years or whatever it is for an interview. Cases should be looked at individually and a determination made on that basis rather than people just being blocked together and told to pay the bedroom tax and to like it or lump it. That is not happening for me, I am afraid.

I thank all the witnesses for coming to the committee.

I want to return to something that Scott Wilson raised, and I would be interested to hear what other people have to say about it.

When you were speaking about the people with whom you had to deal directly, you referred to a lack of sympathy for your condition. I did not want to interrupt at the time, but I wanted to ask you a question about that. Who exactly are we talking about? Was it people from the Department for Work and Pensions?

It was people from the council or the housing association. Obviously, the tax had not been implemented at the time, so they did not have enough information to give out.

Is it the case that you are now a council tenant?

Yes.

In which local authority?

South Lanarkshire.

Are we talking exclusively about people at the council, or were there others who were unhelpful or who appeared not to understand?

It was exclusively people from the council, at the time. However, the more that you get into it, the more it seems that there is no sympathy from anybody regarding benefits. I do not blame the people in the benefits offices, as they are just telling me what they have been told to say. It is the Government that is telling them what to say.

Is that experience the same for others here today, or is there a difference in the performance of various local authorities? Are council staff better in some areas than others?

I cannot add much to what my mum has already said, but I think that our experience is like Scott Wilson’s.

Do you feel that you had support?

I feel that I had some support from Queen’s Cross Housing Association, but not an awful lot.

So you do not feel that you are in a position to objectively judge the quality of the support that you were given.

Not from the council, no.

On the issue of the council officials, which Scott Wilson raised, Linda Fabiani and I went to a meeting in North Lanarkshire at which officials from North Lanarkshire Council and South Lanarkshire Council talked about how they were preparing for the programme to come into existence. I was left with the impression that the local authorities knew that they had to be proactively engaged in order to address the types of issues that you were going to be confronted with.

That might have been the policy intention of the management but, from what we have heard today, it would appear that the officers who are carrying out the engagement are going through things as a matter of course—they are just dealing with people and giving them information but are not actually engaging with them. They are just saying, in a matter-of-fact way, “Here’s the situation, here’s what you’re left with and here’s your options.” It seems that there is nothing beyond that.

As far as I am concerned, the council has been great in relation to everything apart from the bedroom tax. Before the bedroom tax was implemented, the council—like everyone else—had only sparse information, so I cannot blame one person in particular. However, there were problems with the way that they talked to me. That official who asked, “Have you heard of a blow-up bed?”—what training had he had? He was not reading that off a computer screen or anything else.

In every other way, the support that I have had from the council has been great. It has given me a wet room now that I live on my own. It has adapted my house—

It has invested in your house and now you are being told that you have to leave it.

Yes, I am being told that I have to move out. Where is the common sense in that? It is costing the council money to do that.

I thank everyone for coming this morning. I knew that this was not going to be an easy situation for you, and it was certainly not easy for us to have to hear about the impact that the policies are having on you. From people we have spoken to previously, we have gathered an impression that things are bad, but getting first-hand knowledge from the individuals concerned has compounded the felony, as it were.

It is beyond me how a Government that has a benefits system—which, of course, is set at the minimum level necessary to enable people to subsist and to live their lives—can bring in a policy that will take 14 or 25 per cent from that minimum income. By definition, that will put people below the breadline. That is not a welfare system that I consider to be valid.

Again, I thank you for giving us the information that you have given us. That has been helpful. We will take it on board as we continue to consider the implications of the changes. That is what we are here to do, and that is what we intend to do.

We will have a brief suspension to allow our next panel of witnesses to come to the table.

10:55 Meeting suspended.

11:05 On resuming—