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Chamber and committees

Finance Committee, 04 Dec 2007

Meeting date: Tuesday, December 4, 2007


Contents


Budget Process 2008-09

The Convener:

Item 5 is consideration of draft guidance for subject committees on the budget process 2008-09. As members might recall, when the revised guidance was circulated by e-mail, there was disagreement over one particular part of it. Given that we have not yet reached agreement on it, the clerks' original draft has come back before the committee. Do members have any comments?

Alex Neil:

I have a general point. When the convener and the clerk ask members for comments on drafting and are then delegated to finalise the paper, problems can arise if any new substantive points are added. If we follow standing orders to the letter, we can see that any such issue requires the committee's agreement. Irrespective of the merits or demerits of any change—after all, there is a big difference between a drafting change and a substantive change—we should operate by that general rule.

The Convener:

The committee tends, on the whole, to reach agreement on these matters, although we can have some minor disagreements. However, if disagreement arises over a substantive point, the matter should come back to the committee.

Do members have any other comments on the paper before us?

Joe FitzPatrick:

As we have already agreed the clerks' original draft—which did not contain the amendment that was made without discussion—I am happy for that to go ahead. I am prepared to compromise on Elaine Murray's alternative amendment, if it helps the process. My concern was that last week, after we had agreed points that had been debated and added a point that Derek Brownlee had brought up at the last minute, we found that an amendment had suddenly been made on a matter that we did not discuss. That should not have happened.

I, too, am concerned about that.

Liam McArthur:

As far as paragraphs 9 and 10 of the draft guidance are concerned, I imagine that we will all take slightly different perspectives on whether the response from the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth addresses all the issues that we raised. However, irrespective of the advice that we might give to subject committees, they are already expressing concern about the level of detail. Unless we reach some sort of agreement—whether on Elaine Murray's suggestion or something else—it will to some extent become a moot point anyway.

The committees are masters of their own houses, and one would hope that they would look in great detail at whatever comes before them.

Elaine Murray:

When we discussed the paper last week, we had not received the cabinet secretary's response, about which different committee members might well have different levels of satisfaction. When the convener and I discussed this matter, we wondered whether a paper copy of his response should be attached to the guidance instead of being made available through a hyperlink.

The form of words that I have circulated is intended not to lead the subject committees to say, "There's something wrong with the level of detail", but to allow them

"to comment on whether the changes in presentation compared to previous budgets have affected their ability to scrutinise the budget or to consider alternative spending proposals".

Under that proposal, the committees can say, "We are perfectly happy that the level of information provided hasn't impeded our scrutiny", or they can decide that the lack of GAE or some level 3 figures has altered their ability to scrutinise the budget. I simply wanted to find some way of alerting people to the fact that the issue should at least be considered. After all, we will want to make suggestions to the cabinet secretary for future budgets.

Tom McCabe:

As Elaine Murray has pointed out, when the original paper was discussed, we had not received the cabinet secretary's response. I believe that that makes a fundamental material difference to what should be put in the guidance. However, although I feel that it is advisable to have a more explicit reference in the guidance, I am quite happy to go along with the revised wording. There is no point in having a big split-up over the issue.

That said, nothing makes the case for revising the wording more than the evidence that I have just heard from COSLA. People are entitled to their views on the matter, but we have just been told that what happens to a third of the Scottish budget is actually nothing to do with us. Indeed, not only that—the outcomes are nothing to do with us, either. The situation is pretty serious. After all, we could well find ourselves on the receiving end of concerns expressed at our community surgeries, without any ability to confirm how spending is being tracked. This issue is nothing to do with politics or the removal of ring fencing; the fact is that there might be a substantial change in the pattern of expenditure that would be very hard to identify or prove.

Our common objective is to achieve the maximum scrutiny of budgets and to receive answers to our questions. Does everyone have Elaine Murray's suggested form of wording?

I e-mailed it to everyone, but I do not know whether everyone has managed to read it.

The Convener:

I will read it out again for the record. The suggested wording is:

"Committees are invited to consider the presentation of information in the Draft Budget and to comment on whether the changes in presentation compared to previous budgets have affected their ability to scrutinise the budget or to consider alternative spending proposals."

We are, after all, encouraging the maximum scrutiny of these figures and ensuring that they are thoroughly trawled through so that we reach good solutions. Do members agree with that wording?

Members indicated agreement.

We have reached the end of our agenda. I thank everyone for their participation.

Meeting closed at 16:47.