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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, May 31, 2012


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S4F-00725)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Later today, I will join Mary Robinson, the former President of Ireland, at the launch of Scotland’s climate justice fund. The Scottish Government is providing £3 million for the fund—£1 million each year over the next three years. That will support water projects in Malawi, Rwanda, Tanzania and Zambia, which will increase the resilience of some of the world’s poorest communities to the impacts of climate change. The chamber will agree that this is an area where Scotland is providing strong leadership on a hugely important issue, and we call on other industrialised nations to share our ambitions on climate justice.

Johann Lamont

We of course support Scotland working in partnership across the world on these very important issues.

On Sunday night, on BBC Scotland, the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, assured viewers that an independent Scotland would have a seat on the Bank of England’s monetary policy committee. Will the First Minister confirm that that is the case and provide us with the details of the agreement? If that agreement has not been finally signed off, will he at least tell us when negotiations started?

The First Minister

The Bank of England’s monetary policy committee has nine members, four of whom are appointed by the Treasury. We expect to be a part of the appointments process—[Laughter.] There is nothing unusual about that. For example, the chair of the Committee on Climate Change—we have just been talking about climate change—is jointly appointed. In addition, the Treasury has a non-voting observer on the monetary policy committee, and we expect to have the same representation.

The issue is that we have no influence as a country on the monetary policy committee. The Bank of England is an independent central bank that does not take direction on policy, but we should move from a position of having no influence to having proper regard in a sterling area—[Interruption.]

Order. Let us hear the First Minister.

The First Minister

These are arrangements that are put in place between independent countries. It really requires a remarkably diminished view of Scotland and its position not to believe that we are entitled to the same representation as other people making the same arrangements would get. There is a United Kingdom Treasury observer on the Financial Services Advisory Board, which is a Scottish Government committee. Why should Johann Lamont think that any of these things would be unusual for an independent Scotland? As I have discussed with her before, given that we are providing £30,000 million sterling of protection for the UK balance of payments, the UK Treasury and the Bank of England will be glad to have us there.

Johann Lamont

Even by the First Minister’s standards that was an astonishing response to what was a very simple question. I think that the response to the question was that Nicola Sturgeon was wrong when she said that, and that it is about assertion, belief and hope. Of course, the problem is that the First Minister thinks that an independent Scotland would have influence on the monetary policy committee—although we do not have influence now, we will somehow have influence when Scotland is a foreign country. That simply beggars belief.

Of course, crucial to the First Minister’s plans to keep the pound after Scotland leaves the United Kingdom is that the Bank of England and therefore the UK Treasury agree to be Scotland’s lender of last resort. A deal like that would come with a lot of conditions attached. Clearly, the First Minister has not spoken to the Bank of England about the monetary policy committee, but can he confirm that he has at least spoken to it about being our lender of last resort?

The First Minister

Johann Lamont is reverting to reading her script again, which indicates that, regardless of how I answer her question, she is going to get her head down and read the script. The Scottish Government and I spoke to the governor of the Bank of England on 16 February, if I remember correctly.

I have set out exactly why Nicola Sturgeon’s answer was correct. It is the case that we have no influence at the moment. Johann Lamont might remember yesterday’s debate in which I asked her how many Scottish members of the monetary policy committee there are. I did not get an answer to that, because the answer is zero—nul points, none whatsoever. We have established that we have no influence at present and that the Bank of England operates as an independent central bank. I have set out why it would be entirely reasonable for an independent Scotland to have the influence that the UK Treasury has at present and I have pointed out that, in a range of other areas of key importance, we have joint, shared arrangements on appointments at present.

That seems to me a grown-up attitude to how you conduct government. What it does not depend on is the peculiarly unionist coalition attitude to the world and hand-in-glove assumption that a country that provides under present circumstances £30 billion protection for the UK balance of payments would have no influence whatsoever. Why does Johann Lamont always want to diminish Scotland’s abilities and its influence?

Johann Lamont

I have always told my children that it is not grown up just to cross your fingers and hope for the best. It is not grown up for the First Minister to be incapable of arguing for something that he has believed in for 40 years. Never mind a script, he cannot answer basic questions about simple economics in an independent Scotland.

We know that the First Minister has not asked the question about the MPC or the question about the banker of last resort. If he gets his way, we are less than four years away from leaving the UK on a wing and a prayer, yet on the currency and our interest rates and how much we would be able to spend, how much we could borrow and how much tax we could raise, he has done nothing. He asserts that an independent Scotland could rely on the Bank of England, but he has not even asked the bank; it is just meaningless assertion after meaningless assertion. If he wants the Bank of England to back a separate Scotland, why does he not at least ask it what it is willing to do?

I am answering and giving an explanation of what I believe the position would be. I am not responsible for Johann Lamont not being able to ask the right questions. I am answering the questions—[Laughter.]

Order.

The First Minister

I have set out the context of monetary policy and how it is administered. I have set out the shape of the monetary policy committee of the Bank of England. I have pointed out to Johann Lamont that the Bank of England has been an independent bank since 1997 to give it freedom from political determination. I have set out the reasons why it would be not just to Scotland’s advantage but to the advantage of the rest of the UK to have the sterling zone that we propose.

The sterling zone! [Laughter.]

The First Minister

The sterling zone is a matter that is well understood in terms of currencies and polity. [Interruption.] I do not know why the Labour Party should find such a simple explanation so—it is revealing of the Labour Party’s attitude.

It is a reasonable proposition in the current circumstances that it is to the advantage of Scotland to have the sterling zone. It is of substantial advantage to the rest of the United Kingdom because of the protection that Scottish resources give to the balance of payments. Under the circumstances, why is that not a proposition that we should put to the Scottish people? As Johann Lamont knows, we will publish a white paper next year that will set out the independence proposition, and I will be delighted to take her forecast on the timescale for Scottish independence. On whether she should throw in the deck at this stage or wait for four years, four years sounds fine to me and I think that it will sound fine to the people of Scotland.

Johann Lamont

I did not realise that there was a right question for me to ask the First Minister, given that the only right question that his back benchers are allowed to ask is, “Just how good are you, First Minister?”

This is a serious issue. Given the First Minister’s response today, it is no wonder that he flopped at the box office last Friday; it is no wonder that his deputy bombed on the television on Sunday night; and it is no wonder that, this week, some supporters have started backing away from independence. If he is going to put the country through another two and a half years of this constitutional quagmire, he could at least do some work so that his words have some meaning. When will the First Minister realise that just saying something does not make it true?

The First Minister

On the proposition that we will put forward in the white paper next year and the timescale for the referendum that we have set out, I am interested in Johann Lamont’s belief that the independence campaign will lack the strength and vigour of the Tory-Labour alliance that will be set against it. The secret six met recently at Alistair Darling’s home. When I was a child, I occasionally read Enid Blyton’s books about the secret seven, and the secret six are no doubt something very similar. The Labour-Tory alliance against independence—which we see so well displayed in this chamber—will be limited in numbers, limited in enthusiasm and, above all, limited in its ambition for the people of Scotland. I know that, these days, Johann Lamont has taken to speaking on behalf of the people of Scotland, but maybe she should take the precaution of getting herself elected before she makes that presumption.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S4F-00718)

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future. I do not think that I can match the number of meetings between the Prime Minister and Tony Blair, which seem to be extensive.

Ruth Davidson

I am not sure whether I have asked in advance whether this is the right question, but I am going to be old-fashioned and press on anyway.

Three weeks ago, I asked the First Minister about Northern Irish pupils using Irish passports to receive free tuition at Scottish universities. At his high-handed and patronising best, the First Minister told me that there was no evidence of any serious difficulty. As we know, where the First Minister leads the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning is only too eager to follow. This week, in a letter to my colleague Liz Smith, he, too, was magisterially dismissive of legitimate concerns. Refusing to make a statement to Parliament, he said that

“doing so might risk attaching a level of importance to this that is out of proportion to experience on the ground”.

Well, the evidence does exist. Figures have emerged from the University of Dundee showing that almost a quarter of the more than 1,500 applicants from Northern Ireland used an Irish passport, with a potential cost to Dundee alone of more than £14 million. Will the First Minister now admit that there is a real problem and instruct his education secretary to sort it out?

The First Minister

There is nothing new in the principle of the arrangement, which has been in place for many years because of the totally misguided attempt by the United Kingdom Government to impose tuition fees and the necessities of European law and regulation.

Ruth Davidson does herself an injustice. After she made her previous point to me, I took the time and trouble to go and check on the exact figures. Of course, we now have the benefit of the final Universities and Colleges Admissions Service figures for applications for this year. I went to those figures and I looked for this overwhelming influx of Northern Irish students—because the figures are done by domicile, of course—who must be flooding into the country in order to justify Ruth Davidson’s fears.

What I found was that, in 2011-12, the number of applications from Northern Ireland-domiciled students—that means Northern Irish people whether they have Irish citizenship, joint citizenship, dual citizenship or whatever—was 6,131. This year, after Ruth Davidson’s flood of applications, which is causing her so much concern, the number was 5,211, which represents a decline of 15 per cent. That is even greater than the disastrous decline in the number of English students applying to English universities in the face of the Tory and Liberal tuition fees, which was 10 per cent.

Now that we have the final figures and we know that the number of applications is down by 15 per cent, would Ruth Davidson care to reorientate herself in her dire predictions of a flood of Northern Irish students?

Ruth Davidson

The First Minister is yet again giving us the broad brush but not looking at the detail. How many of those applying were doing so under an Irish passport? That is the question that the First Minister has to answer. Yet again, he is running off to shore up his flailing education secretary, but what is interesting about Mike Russell’s letter is that he kind of contradicts himself. It comes down to this idea of domicile and residency. There is a boast in the letter when Mike Russell says that he is absolutely clear that the domicile is the deciding criterion, but in the next sentence he contradicts himself by saying that those with dual nationality get to choose. Again, we come back to whether the criterion is domicile, nationality or residency.

Our universities and students are desperate for clarity, which Mike Russell says in his letter he hopes to come up with next year, but not this year. Will the First Minister break the habit of a lifetime, admit that this is a total Horlicks, step in, sort it out and give our universities clarity now?

The First Minister

That was so bad that it did not even get cheers from the Labour benches.

I ask, in all seriousness, how my answer can be broad brush when I identified the numbers to the nearest one? I will repeat them to Ruth Davidson. Last year, the total number of applications from Northern Ireland residents—whether they have Irish citizenship or not—was 6,131. This year, it has come in at 5,211. That is not broad brush. It is exact detail that allows us to quantify the extent of the problem that Ruth Davidson assured us a few weeks ago was flooding into Scottish universities. The universities are not desperate; it is the Conservative Party in Scotland that is desperate, as it happens.

I was looking again, because I am becoming quite addicted, at posts on the web by Jim Terras, the current chairman of Selkirk Conservative and Unionist club. He said of last week’s effort:

“had nobody prepared Ruth for the likely reply that Alex Salmond would give? ... It was almost as bad as Johann Lamont’s effort that elicited ‘groans’ from the chamber for being so politically inept and twee.”

It seems that the Tory and Labour alliance has some way to run before it is going to present a threat to the Scottish people’s ascent to independence.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S4F-00719)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Willie Rennie

This week, the First Minister’s bulldozer came charging back out of the garage. This time, it was the Justice Committee ramming through police centralisation and crushing amendment after amendment. What is next in the bulldozer’s path? Perhaps it will be emergency control rooms. Can the First Minister guarantee that he will not close local police and fire emergency control rooms?

The First Minister

I am still trying to work out the bulldozer thing. The most recent bulldozer, I suppose, was during the Scottish local government elections. If I remember correctly, Liberal Democrats the length and breadth of the country, as they did in last year’s Scottish parliamentary elections, made this the centrepoint of their campaign, spreading gloom, doom and despondency around Scotland and saying that central Scottish police and fire services will not work for local communities. The only unfortunate thing—the only bulldozer in operation—was the bulldozer that the Scottish people lumped over the Liberal Democrats.

Willie Rennie

So I get no answer—absolutely no answer. The First Minister stood there before, boasting about the big numbers that his centralisation plans will save. We should not forget that, in his own consultation, his plans were rejected by two to one. He should not give me any of that tosh about the public supporting his plans for centralisation. The truth is that his changes will cost money, not save it, which is why the control rooms are under threat. People at the Scottish Police Federation think that emergency control rooms will close. Only a couple of weeks ago, a chief fire officer told Radio Scotland that he believed that closures were on the way. When will the decision be made? People rely on control rooms at Thornton, Dundee, Inverness, Aberdeen, Govan and many more places. When will they be told their fate?

The First Minister

The programme for police and fire reform continues according to the timetable. We have made the point that we think that within the Scottish structure we can improve local accountability.

I was struck by Willie Rennie’s mention of the situation north and south of the border. The difference between Scotland and England is this: in Scotland, police numbers are increasing—they are 1,000 up on what they were in 2007—whereas in England, police numbers are collapsing, thanks to the policies of the Tory and Liberal Administration. Of course, that is reflected in the respect that is shown by the police federations in both countries. When Kenny MacAskill, as Cabinet Secretary for Justice, went to the Scottish Police Federation in the past few weeks, he got a standing ovation. When Theresa May, as the Home Secretary and representative of the Liberal and Conservative Government, went to the Police Federation of England and Wales, she got a slow handclap. That is the difference between the confidence that the forces in Scotland have in our policies and the total lack of confidence that the forces in England have in the Tory-Liberal coalition.


RAF Leuchars



4. To ask the First Minister, in light of the economic impact on the area, what representations the Scottish Government is making to the United Kingdom Government regarding the transition of RAF Leuchars to an Army base. (S4F-00730)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The Scottish Government has made strong representations to the United Kingdom Government, seeking clarity on its future plans for RAF Leuchars. The Cabinet Secretary for Parliamentary Business and Government Strategy has written repeatedly to the Secretary of State for Defence, setting out our continued concerns and calling for a meeting with UK ministers to discuss the defence transformation issues that are affecting Scotland. The Minister of State for the Armed Forces has agreed to that meeting, which I understand will take place on 14 June.

Roderick Campbell

It is almost a year since the Secretary of State for Defence announced the closure of RAF Leuchars. We have had no further details of its transition to an Army base, so I welcome the First Minister’s statement. As he will appreciate, the whole community has been extremely perturbed by the absence of information, so anything that he can do to provide that information will undoubtedly be appreciated.

The First Minister

I absolutely give that assurance. In the contacts that we have had with the UK Government on this matter, we have consistently made the exact point about risk that Roderick Campbell identifies. At his meeting with the minister of state, the cabinet secretary will rigorously reinforce that message. Throughout the process, the Scottish Government has been clear that we will work with all concerned to bring about the best result that we can in the circumstances for service personnel and their families and for the communities such as Leuchars that have so proudly hosted them for so many generations.

The First Minister previously said that an independent Scotland would have just one airbase. Would that one airbase be at Leuchars or elsewhere?

The First Minister

The inheritance that we will get will be according to the defence review that was set out by Liam Fox when he was defence secretary. Of course, we thought that that was what we would inherit. Since then, the latest defence secretary has cast some doubt about key aspects of that, not least of which is the designation of cap badges of the Scottish regiments. I will make an arrangement with Murdo Fraser. If he can find out from his colleague in London exactly what the latest review of the defence review means for Scotland, I will be able to answer his questions comprehensively.


Healthcare (Access Target)



5. To ask the First Minister whether the 48-hour waiting time target for access to a general practitioner or relevant healthcare professional is being met across Scotland. (S4F-00736)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The patient experience survey of GP and local national health service services for 2011-12 was published this week and showed that 92.6 per cent of patients were offered the opportunity to see or speak to a doctor or nurse within 48 hours, which is above our target of 90 per cent; 85 per cent of patients were able to see or speak to a doctor or nurse within two working days; and 8 per cent were offered an appointment but the person whom they wanted to see was not available or the time was not convenient.

Dr Simpson

The Sunday Post ran an interesting front page this week. I thank the First Minister for his response, but is he really telling the Parliament that we should be confident in the patient experience survey, which covered fewer than 2 per cent of patients and had an even lower response rate on the specific question about the target on 48-hour access? If he is saying that we should be confident in the survey—which we really should not be—is he pleased that one in five practices did not reach the 90 per cent target for 48-hour access and that in some practices the rate is as low as 72 per cent?

Will the First Minister invite the Cabinet Secretary for Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy to stop focusing on independence and start discussions with the British Medical Association and the royal colleges, so that practices that are not meeting the target are not only identified and challenged but supported, given that many GPs are finding that pressures and demands are increasing year on year?

The First Minister

Let me tell Richard Simpson why we should have confidence in the patient experience survey. I know that he was not in the Parliament during the session before 2007—neither was I—but if he checks, as I am sure that he will do after question time, he will find that in 2006-07 it was up to GPs to declare to NHS boards their compliance in relation to 48-hour patient access.

This Government changed that in 2008-09, introducing the patient experience survey so that we could find out what the people thought of how well they could access their GP or relevant healthcare professional. In other words, there was a change from the approach under the Labour-Liberal Administration, when it was up to GPs to put in the returns, to one in which we have a genuine patient survey.

Patient satisfaction, according to that genuine patient survey, has improved from 89 per cent in 2008-09 to almost 93 per cent this year. I am sure that Richard Simpson had those figures at his very fingertips and that he was about to quote them, in all fairness. That is why we can have confidence in the survey. There is an improving situation under the most difficult circumstances. In general terms, when we have reason to do so the Parliament should give every support to our national health service and those who practise in it.


Business Start-ups by 18 to 24-year-olds.



6. To ask the First Minister how many 18 to 24-year-olds started their own businesses in Scotland last year and how this compares with England and Wales. (S4F-00727)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

Interesting new business registration statistics from the Office for National Statistics show that there were 15,530 business start-ups in Scotland in 2010, which was up 5.5 per cent on 2009. That compared with decreases of almost 1 per cent in England and almost 10 per cent in Wales in the same period. The measure of business registrations by age group is not available in that survey, but evidence from the 2012 global entrepreneurship monitor, which the University of Strathclyde collects, showed that 6 per cent of people aged 18 to 24 in Scotland were engaged in early-stage entrepreneurial activity, compared with a rate of less than 3 per cent in England.

Support and advice for people of all ages who are looking to start up in business in Scotland are made available through the business gateway. Alongside that, of course, the Prince’s Scottish Youth Business Trust provides advice, financial support and aftercare service for young people aged between 18 and 25 who want to set up a business.

Alex Johnstone

The First Minister will be aware that, on Monday, the private sector-funded £82.5 million business start-up loan scheme was established in England. Does he think that he has already covered his responsibility to do that in Scotland or does he think that additional resources need to be gathered and used effectively, to ensure that young Scottish businessmen and women have the opportunity to establish themselves in the years to come?

The First Minister

I saw the report and the suggestion that seemed to be made that the scheme is using private sector funding. My understanding now is that it is not private sector funding, although a number of companies are facilitating the process of the loan scheme. I have looked for information on the scheme for the past couple of days and it has not been immediately forthcoming, if I can put it as gently as that, but my understanding—I will give Alex Johnstone a correction if this is not the case—is that the initiative is being run as a pilot scheme that is funded by United Kingdom Government departments. I am suspicious of that. As he probably knows, pilot schemes can be non-Barnetted, and the scheme is for England only. If I find out that Government money is being deployed in the scheme, which seems to be interesting, I hope that I will have the whole Parliament’s support on the point that Barnett consequentials should flow to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

We will find out exactly where the funds are coming from. If they are public money, the scheme should be Barnetted. A trial should not be used as a means of not applying the correct funding mechanisms. I shall write to Alex Johnstone when I have more details.

On the substance of the question, we should understand that the Prince’s Scottish Youth Business Trust does invaluable work in the space that we are discussing. When the Parliament holds the upcoming business in the Parliament conference on enterprise, I will make an announcement that is specific to that fund and to how we can provide further Government support for young people in Scotland who are anxious to become entrepreneurs.

I am sorry that I cannot give Alex Johnstone a more explicit indication of what will be in that announcement, but I am sure that he will understand that I should make the announcement at the business in the Parliament conference. He can look forward to that day.

The Presiding Officer

I know that members will wish to join me in welcoming Mary Robinson, former President of Ireland and former United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights, who joined us in the gallery during First Minister’s questions. [Applause.]

12:31 Meeting suspended.

14:15 On resuming—