Plenary, 30 Apr 2009

Meeting date: Thursday, April 30, 2009

Official Report 745KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-1646)

Later today, I will have a range of engagements, including participating in the Scottish Cabinet committee on civil contingencies in the Scottish Government resilience room to look at the latest information on the swine flu outbreak.

As members in the chamber will know, the World Health Organization increased its alert status to phase 5 yesterday evening, which suggests that the virus is becoming increasingly better adapted to person-to-person spread. It means that countries are called on to activate their contingency plans. Fortunately, Scotland is very well prepared, not just because we have a long-standing plan but because we activated that plan last weekend when we became aware of the possible cases in Scotland.

Yesterday, the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing outlined to Parliament how Scotland's national framework for responding to an influenza pandemic is being implemented and is working. I agree with the First Minister: it is clear that the United Kingdom is one of the best prepared countries in the world. However, as he said, last night the WHO raised its alert level to phase 5. Yesterday, the health secretary reported that 32 cases in Scotland remained under investigation. Will the First Minister update us on that figure and on the status of those cases?

Yes, and I am grateful to Iain Grey for framing the question in that way. I would like to provide the chamber with an update. As people understand, this is a fast-moving situation, but this is the information as at 10.30 this morning. There are still only two people confirmed as positive for swine flu. The last two tests of those who had been in close contact with the confirmed cases have been declared negative. Two new possible cases of close contact have been identified and one individual is being retested. Within the past 24 hours, a further 19 travel-related possible cases have been identified and 24 possible cases have been cleared by testing; there is also one travel-related case, unrelated to the confirmed two cases, in Glasgow, which we now consider as a probable case.

That means that a total of 27 suspected cases are now under investigation. It is a fast-moving situation, but the summary as of now is that there remain two confirmed cases, there are 27 cases under investigation and the total number of people who have been cleared by testing is 41.

Some cases in Scotland have remained under investigation for several days; I appreciate the update on those from the First Minister. What is the timescale for a determination to be made? What is the difference between a possible case and a probable case?

Containment is serving us very well, but at what point does that strategy have to move on in a situation that is fast moving, as the First Minister says?

Again, I thank Iain Gray for the nature of his question. It is a very good question and it is helpful to express it in that way. We have a number of tests that can identify this virus. The tests can take place in the west of Scotland specialist virology centre at Gartnavel and the final reference lab test takes place in Collingdale.

The test that we can do first is to see whether the person has type A flu. Clearly, if that test proves negative—and that can be done relatively quickly in a matter of hours—then that can be declared as a negative test. However, if someone has type A flu, it does not necessarily mean that they have this particular strain of the virus. The molecular tests that are necessary to identify that take some considerable time, sometimes 48 hours and indeed more in some cases. The reason why we have been able to clear some 40 people—I think that it is 41, as of the past few minutes—is that the first test showed up negative for type A flu.

Iain Gray asked what the difference is between a possible case and a probable case. A probable case is someone who has tested positive for type A flu but who has not been confirmed as having the full strain of the virus, which can be confirmed only by the more detailed tests, which take some time.

Yesterday, the health secretary gave strong and very welcome reassurances with regard to the stockpiling of antivirals throughout the UK. Given the change in alert level to phase 5, will those antivirals now be moved from central stockpiles to more local distribution points?

That is under way as part of our activation plan. As Iain Gray rightly surmises, we currently have stockpiles of the two antiviral drugs that have been demonstrated to be effective against the virus to meet the needs of 50 per cent of the Scottish population. That figure is now being increased throughout the UK.

We also have substantial stockpiles in Scotland of other materials that will help us to combat the virus. For example, we have 9 million surgical face-masks in Scotland—a very substantial stockpile indeed—which are aimed at medical staff who are treating people with suspected infections.

Iain Gray referred in his earlier question to something that is quite important. The evidence that we are gathering because we were able to identify the two confirmed cases very quickly in Scotland is important for us and probably worldwide, given that there is a limited amount of information about clearly identified cases. Information is coming in all the time.

We cannot be certain about these things but, as I mentioned earlier, two people are still under investigation and one person is being retested. The very least we can say is that the immediate effect of the measures to interrupt the spread of the virus appears to have been successful. We do not know whether those measures will be totally successful until the final testing is completed, but at the very least we can say that a substantial number of those who have had close contact with the two confirmed cases have already been cleared of the virus.

We can be pleased that the framework has worked, as the First Minister has indicated, and we hope that the outbreak has been contained. The framework requires preparations to be made, and those have served us well.

The First Minister referred to a meeting that is to be held later today of the Scottish Cabinet committee on civil contingencies. With the alert level now at 5, what plans, beyond the direct health measures that are in place—which he outlined today, as his health secretary did yesterday—are now being made for wider civil contingencies?

That is, again, a very helpful question. A meeting with stakeholders through the wider civil contingencies network is planned for tomorrow, which will explain the nature of the phase 5 alert from the WHO and the further activation of our plans.

The phase 5 declaration by the WHO means that it has identified person-to-person spread in at least two countries. That means that we have to anticipate that person-to-person spread will occur. In effect, by identifying the cases and interrupting the spread of the virus, we have bought ourselves time. That is obviously very valuable, because the more time we can buy, the fewer people will fall ill.

It is valuable to interrupt the spread of the virus not only through the measures that we have taken in relation to the identified cases, but through the general health measures that have been circulated through the country and, as Iain Gray rightly surmises, the involvement of the social partners in the wider civil contingencies programme. We need the help not only of the social partners and of every party in the Parliament but of the general public in Scotland in responding to the important health messages that are now being broadcast.

However, according to the WHO, the reality is that, however good our measures are, however effective our countermeasures are and however we try to interrupt the virus's spread, it is likely that there will be more cases—and, indeed, person-to-person cases. What we are doing is minimising the virus's impact, and the work of everyone who is engaged in doing that is very valuable.

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Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S3F-1647)

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future. However, the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing is participating in Cabinet Office briefing room A—COBRA—meetings, in which the Prime Minister is also participating.

We all agree that it is undesirable to overdramatise swine flu. However, the World Health Organization's decision to declare a level 5 alert—one short of a full pandemic—raises public fears and requires continued clarity from the Scottish Government. The first thing that needs to be done is to separate myth from fact. Will the First Minister confirm that, despite its name, the swine flu virus is spread by human-to-human contact; that pork products are safe and can be eaten safely; and that pork production is not at risk?

Those are certainly the indications that we have. The WHO raised the alert status because it has evidence of human-to-human transmission in two countries—Mexico and the United Status—with the assumption that there will be human-to-human transmission in other countries. However, there is no evidence at all that the virus can be communicated by any means bar human-to-human transmission.

We very much hope that the precautionary principle and actions that have been applied in Scotland and the seemingly mild nature of the virus outwith Mexico mean that its impact can be limited and contained. However, such viruses are notoriously unpredictable and can be highly infectious. In the contingency plans that all Governments must have, what is the trigger point in Scotland for curtailing the free movement and association of people, no matter whether they are travelling, are at their workplaces or centres of education or are taking part in leisure activities such as attending football matches? In other words, would such restrictions be triggered by the number of people infected, the infection's rate of spread or some other factor?

The point would be reached when there was evidence of widespread infection. There is no such evidence at the moment.

As a result, the best thing for all of us and indeed the general public to do is to pay heed to the clear health messages that are being broadcast on how we can interrupt the virus's progress from identified cases. I have to say that measures in that respect have probably been implemented in Scotland more quickly—and at least as effectively if not more so—than anywhere else in the world. We must engage the wider community's co-operation in taking up these simple health measures and messages, which will help to stop and limit the virus's transmission. I suspect that the answer to Annabel Goldie's question is that everything that we are doing is designed to prevent us from reaching the point that she has referred to.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-1648)

The Cabinet will discuss a range of issues of relevance to the people of Scotland.

This morning, under pressure from Opposition members during a Liberal Democrat debate, the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning admitted that the Government's plans for teacher training are changing. Instead of the 9 per cent increase in training places that was announced only on 3 March, there will be a cut of 4 per cent. Given that teacher numbers have fallen by 1,000 under the First Minister's watch, how is such a cut the right thing to do?

I remind Tavish Scott that that would not only take teacher training places to 2007 levels but mean that the level of teacher training places would be substantially higher than the average level that prevailed throughout the Labour and Liberal term of office.

The cabinet secretary said that there would be a 4 per cent cut in teacher training places next year, with teacher numbers under the Scottish National Party down by 1,000. The statistics are bad. For example, the number of mathematics teachers is down. Has that been done on purpose to stop children ever counting up how badly they have been let down? Although children should know that the progress on class sizes has been microscopic, they do not, because the number of science teachers is also down. Will they ever learn how to use a microscope? Children might also have called the whole policy a pantomime, but the number of drama teachers is—yes, you've guessed it—also down. How can we tell? In 2007, Fiona Hyslop said:

"If we get it right, we will energise an entire generation".—[Official Report, 20 June 2007; c 883.]

Every set of Government statistics shows that she has not got it right. How much longer has she got?

One would not have to be a maths student to identify that we have the best teacher pupil ratios in Scottish history at present. Tavish Scott says that that progress is microscopic, but it is clearly progress on the record of the past Liberal-Labour Administration in Scotland. It is no coincidence that some of the best results on teacher numbers and the reduction in class sizes are in the areas of excellent councils such as SNP-controlled West Lothian Council. Rather than progress through the variety of subjects, Tavish Scott should consider that he would not even have to be an arithmetic student, never mind a mathematics student, to know that it is invariably true, and an iron law of education and politics, that, in this Parliament and in any Parliament, Liberal Democrat sums never add up.

Continuing on the education theme, the First Minister is aware of Glasgow City Council's decision to close several primary schools in Glasgow. The council blames a reduction in the finance for primary school renewal under the SNP Government. Is the First Minister aware that local parents are singularly unimpressed with the tit-for-tat argument between Labour and the SNP on the issue, when there are viable options? For example, there could be joint-campus community schools in the areas, despite the relatively limited access to capital funding, although that might not necessarily happen immediately. Will the First Minister take up the suggestion that I made in a letter to him last week—which I hope he has received—and meet parents from the Wyndford schools and particularly St Agnes primary school in Cadder, as well as representatives of Glasgow City Council, to discuss as a matter of urgency whether a more positive approach is possible? That might provide clarity on what funding stream will be available under the Scottish Futures Trust to avoid the closures, which will be damaging to local communities.

We would be happy to arrange meetings with concerned parents. The puzzle that I genuinely do not understand is that Glasgow City Council representatives, including its education convener, have said that the council's education budget has been rising in real terms. I genuinely do not understand how a rising education budget in real terms can translate into fewer teachers and schools in Glasgow. Glasgow City Council owes an explanation of that not only to the concerned parents but to everyone else in Scotland.

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Pandemic Flu

To ask the First Minister what steps are in place to support the national health service in handling pandemic flu. (S3F-1655)

As the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing set out in her statement yesterday, the Scottish Government and NHS Scotland take the threat of a flu pandemic very seriously. Work has been carried out with partner organisations since at least 2005 to ensure that Scotland is in the best possible position to respond to a pandemic. In 2007, we consulted on and published a framework for responding to an influenza pandemic, based on the United Kingdom's influenza pandemic contingency plan. As we discussed earlier, last evening, the World Health Organization raised its alert level to 5, which means that member Governments are called on to implement their plans on preparedness. Fortunately, because we identified the cases in Scotland last weekend, we are already in that position and will carry forward the implementation of our contingency plans.

I have just been passed information that I am sure that members will wish to hear. The couple who tested positive—Iain and Dawn Askham—have now been released from Monklands hospital and are very well indeed. I am sure that everybody will be delighted to hear that news.

The First Minister referred to the WHO's decision to move to phase 5 in its six-point pandemic scale. What direct contact has there been between the Scottish Government and the WHO?

The director general of the WHO, Dr Margaret Chan, spoke with the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Wellbeing on 28 April. Dr Chan expressed confidence about and support for the actions that the Scottish Government is taking to deal with the situation. She also agreed—this is very important—that the work that we are doing would be important in informing international understanding of the swine flu outbreak, which is obviously incomplete at this stage. In that regard, we are making available to the WHO and to all partner organisations the detail of the confirmed cases in Scotland, how the virus has been progressing, its infectivity and how that has been, at least at this stage, restricted by the actions that have been taken.

The First Minister will be aware that the two confirmed cases of swine flu are my constituents. Like others, I wish them well. Will the First Minister join me in commending NHS Forth Valley on its quick and efficient implementation of its emergency programme last weekend?

Yes, I will. The constituency member obviously has the right to ask that question and will be well thought of for carrying out her duty of care towards her constituents. I was delighted to be able to say that Iain and Dawn Askham have been released from Monklands hospital.

NHS Forth Valley and the other affected health boards have reacted extremely well over the recent period. The WHO put out its alert last Friday—at midnight, I think—to partner organisations, including NHS Forth Valley, and the action to take Iain and Dawn Askham to Monklands hospital happened within hours of their reporting to NHS 24 on the Saturday. That action has proved extremely valuable, not just in potentially restricting the infectivity of the virus but in allowing us to learn a great deal more about the progression of the condition. That would not have been possible unless the local health board, along with other health boards, had followed the action plan and taken full part in making the contingency plans that were put in place.

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Student Finance

To ask the First Minister whether reducing graduate debt or tackling student hardship should be the priority for the Scottish Government. (S3F-1649)

Both reducing debt and tackling student hardship are priorities for the Scottish Government. That is why we have introduced a number of policies to tackle those issues, which include abolishing the graduate endowment fee, benefiting more than 50,000 graduates and indeed students; introducing a £38 million package of grants for part-time learners, benefiting up to 20,000 students a year; and providing £16 million a year to institutions to alleviate student hardship. Because of the combination of those actions, for the first time since devolution the average student loan debt fell in 2007 and now stands at £5,354 in 2008, compared with £9,580 south of the border.

The First Minister is missing the point yet again. Did he not hear the wake-up call from students on Monday, or was he just not listening? Students' patience with the Scottish National Party has run out. The First Minister's Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning is completely out of touch with the reality for students in Scotland today. Under the SNP, Scottish students are living in far greater financial hardship, student support levels are far behind those in the rest of the United Kingdom and hardship funds are being stretched to breaking point—all that from a party that promised students so much at the last election. Will the First Minister now respond to the wake-up call from students, swallow his pride and work with us to deliver the real help that students want and need?

The member talks about student support. Why do students need support south of the border? It is because they pay tuition fees. In Scotland, students no longer pay tuition fees; they do not pay front-end fees as they do south of the border and they do not pay the back-end fees that were implemented by the Labour and Liberal parties. As regards hardship, if the member was correct in her surmise about the position of Scottish students, why for the first time since devolution is student loan debt so much lower in Scotland than it is south of the border?

As the member knows, the consultation period for "Supporting a Smarter Scotland: A consultation on supporting learners in higher education", which sets out a range of options on how student support can be improved, has been extended by eight weeks to midnight tonight, 30 April. That reflects the importance that we attach to these issues. A range of proposals have been made in the consultation but, as of half an hour ago, the Labour Party had submitted no evidence to it. Is the reason for that that the member realises how incredible it would sound for the Labour Party to suggest additional spending at a time when it is cutting £500 million off the Scottish budget?

Does the First Minister share my disgust at the Labour Party demanding increases in student support after ignoring students throughout the time that it was in office, and demanding that Scotland pays students £7,000 a year, tax free, while Labour supports without complaint a UK Government that pays a state pension that is £2,500 less than that? Given that the state pension is taxable and earned, does the First Minister find it strange that Labour members have nothing to say in defence of Scotland's pensioners against their Government at Westminster?

I do not find it strange. We already know that the Labour Party in Scotland, unlike the Labour Party in Wales, is unable to stand up on the pressing issue of the £500 million budget cut to which I have referred.

I can report from the budget debate at Westminster, which I attended this week—[Applause.] Yes, I attended and spoke up for Scotland, which is more than any Labour MP for a Scottish constituency managed in the entire debate. I found that revolt was spreading through the revolting benches of the Labour Party at Westminster. Even the arch-Blairite Stephen Byers—the arch right-winger of the Blair Government—was moved to say that he could not face his constituents with cuts to health and education while a Labour Government supported the Trident replacement programme and identity cards.

I can tell the First Minister that the Scottish Conservatives' response to the consultation will be submitted this afternoon. [Laughter.]

Order.

Earlier this week, 25 student leaders combined to raise serious concerns about Government policy and broken SNP promises on higher education. Does the First Minister really think that it is satisfactory that the sole response of the cabinet secretary to that serious criticism should be to tell the students to grow up and stop complaining?

I hope that, when the Conservatives' submission comes in, the cabinet secretary is careful not to get wet ink on her fingers, as Murdo Fraser desperately tries to complete his submission within the timetable. In his conversations with student leaders, as the new-found hero of students in Scotland, did Murdo Fraser pledge or reveal that the Conservative party intends to reintroduce the graduate endowment and student fees and to make every student in Scotland pay for their education, or did he keep quiet about that bit?

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Community Sentences

To ask the First Minister what progress the Scottish Government is making on the replacement of short-term prison sentences with robust community sentences. (S3F-1660)

As Mike Pringle knows—I know that he and many of his colleagues appreciate this—three out of four of those who are sentenced to six months or less in prison offend again within two years. By contrast, 42 per cent of those who are sentenced to community service have a clean record after that time. Those figures speak for themselves. We plan to build on them through our legislative proposals for the new community payback order and the presumption against prison sentences of six months or less. We are working hard to ensure that community service is started immediately and completed more quickly, and that there is adequate and appropriate guidance and training for support staff. That is why we have invested additional resources in the programme.

The sentencing figures for 2007-08, which were released by the Government this week, show that 12,681 custodial sentences were for six months or less. Is the First Minister aware that his officials estimate that, following sentencing reform, the number of community sentencing orders that are issued will increase by only up to 1,240? As I am sure he is aware, we have read in the press this week that it is taking longer and longer for people to get on to a community sentencing order. Is he concerned that judges will simply ignore efforts to steer them away from short-term sentences? Does he agree that, if short-term sentences are to be effectively replaced with tough community penalties, focusing on sentences of three months or less would be preferable?

I believe that every sensible person who has studied the judicial system in Scotland will agree with the direction of the Government, as set out in the McLeish commission's report. I could indicate comments made by the Liberal Democrats, who I think are pretty firm and solid on this issue. I could indicate comments made in the past by Cathy Jamieson, who recognised the folly of short sentences with regard to changing offending behaviour. I could even indicate comments from the Conservative party and from Iain Duncan Smith's analysis of the social position, as described by his commission's report. There is a wide range of support for the Government's direction of travel. I believe that that support extends throughout the judicial system, and I believe that we will get great co-operation as we move towards community sentences and away from short-term prison sentences.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—