Plenary, 27 Sep 2001

Meeting date: Thursday, September 27, 2001

Official Report 702KB pdf

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First Minister's Question Time

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SCOTTISH EXECUTIVE

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Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

Before I ask my question, I associate the Scottish National Party with the comments that were made earlier by the First Minister in relation to the dreadful incident that took place in Switzerland earlier today. The spirit of democracy must prevail and the work of government must go on.

To ask the First Minister when he next plans to meet the Secretary of State for Scotland and what issues he intends to raise. (S1F-1259)

Now that Mike Russell has taken his seat, I congratulate him on his contribution to First Minister's question time last week. On reflection, he did not do badly enough to be temporarily taken off the SNP's national executive a few days later.

I last met the Secretary of State for Scotland on 25 September and we have no immediate plans to meet.

The First Minister refers to the contribution of my colleague, Mike Russell. I notice, in the Official Report, that the First Minister referred to Michael Russell as

"a man of sound judgment".—[Official Report, 20 September 2001; c 2716.]

I am happy to agree with the First Minister on that point from last week's question time.

Can the First Minister tell me whether, since the dark days of Margaret Thatcher's Government, the number of homeless people has risen or fallen?

I echo John Swinney's sentiments about the sound judgment of Mike Russell, who is laughing.

The underlying trend is down; we welcome that. Homelessness is an important issue for every member in this chamber. That is why the coalition is pursuing such vigorous housing policies in which measures to combat homelessness play a key role and in which tackling homelessness is a priority.

That is the usual non-answer to a definite question that we get from the First Minister. The question was whether the number of homeless people in Scotland has risen or fallen since Margaret Thatcher left office. The number has, in fact, risen by 16,000. Today's news is that homelessness is up under the Labour Government and, to add to the woes, the number of children who are being forced to live in inappropriate bed-and-breakfast accommodation is also up.

The First Minister told us that inappropriate use of bed-and-breakfast accommodation by families damages the education and quality of life of children. As his policies are letting down the children of Scotland, will he now urgently commission a review of the Executive's housing policy to help Scotland's homeless people?

It is fairly evident that John Swinney has turned from homelessness back to an issue that he raised at the SNP conference. Let us be clear about the social agenda that the coalition is pursuing, which has children at its heart—so much so that we are doing more to reduce child poverty in Scotland than any previous Administration in the post-war period. That is something that the SNP should think carefully about and want to support, instead of denigrating policies that are designed to help children.

The underlying trend of homelessness is down. We are doing more to tackle the issue with local authorities, and the homelessness task force is also applying itself to the issue. Let us not have constant talking down of key groups in our society. The SNP must recognise that we value what we are doing for children and the homeless, and that those policies will continue to be supported by the coalition.

Is that the summit of the First Minister's ambition? He has managed to take out of poverty 1 per cent of the 33 per cent of Scotland's children who live in poverty—1 per cent in four years. It will take more than 100 years for us to get children out of poverty under the present Government.

The First Minister said at the end of last year that his policies were about demonstrating his compassion by ensuring that the most vulnerable in our society—the homeless—benefit from the nation's prosperity. Well, 16,000 fewer people are benefiting from Scotland's prosperity as a result of the failure of this Government's policy. Is not it the case that the Government is showing not compassion, but contempt for the homeless?

I reject utterly the fatuous remarks that John Swinney makes. It is important to recognise who is doing the work to tackle those key social issues, and then to measure that work against the ranting from the SNP conference last week. In the SNP, we have a party that is simply about tax and separatism. It is a party that does not want to say that the new hospitals at Hairmyres, Wishaw, east Ayrshire, and the new royal infirmary in Edinburgh, are important. It is a party that does not want to celebrate the fact that 70 schools have been built or refurbished in Scotland.

What is the SNP's answer to every problem? We now know that it is to raise taxes. I wish to put it on the record that the major social issues in Scotland are being addressed in a formidable way by this coalition. That will continue.

I finish by quoting Andrew Wilson, who is always an expert in the areas that we are addressing. His newspaper column, on the subject of leadership, was headed:

"I would rather be staked naked in a Highland glen covered in perfume and used as midge bait than be leader of political party"—

by which he meant the SNP.

Is not it about time that on one unique occasion the First Minister answered one of the questions that he is asked? He has been asked today why homelessness is increasing in Scotland. Will he answer that question, instead of giving us nonsense about other issues? Why is homelessness rising in Scotland? Why is the Government failing?

We have made the point several times this afternoon that the underlying trend is down. The Scottish people want practical solutions to the problems that they perceive in Scotland. The SNP wants to tax more, it wants separation, and it wants to ignore the use of private capital to refurbish schools and hospitals. That is the choice. The SNP is a party, as we have seen recently, that cannot count. As our Minister for Finance and Local Government said, the SNP will never count unless it stops talking to itself and starts listening to the Scottish people.

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Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when the Scottish Executive's Cabinet will next meet and what issues will be discussed. (S1F-1260)

The Cabinet will next meet on 9 October, when it will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

I hope that at its next meeting the Cabinet will discuss the hospital building programme. Does the First Minister agree that the programme, which was initiated by the Conservative Government, would not be possible without the private finance initiative and public-private partnership schemes, which are enabling new hospitals to be built more quickly and cost-effectively than would otherwise have been the case, and which are delivering better facilities for our patients and better value for our taxpayers?

I am pleased to acknowledge the role of private capital in our hospital building programme. Everyone in this chamber should support that principle. What we are seeking to do is not to get bogged down in ideology, as parties can do, but to apply the term, "What matters is what works". For us, what works is what is best for patients. If that means that private capital has a role to play, it is constructive to acknowledge that.

I acknowledge the First Minister's remarks. He and I seem to share a great deal of common ground on this issue. In fact, we seem to share more common ground than he shares with the Liberal Democrats in his Cabinet. Will the First Minister confirm that the Scottish Executive and other public bodies in Scotland will continue to use PFI and PPP schemes as an essential part of improving our public services, and that there is no question of a Scottish Executive-imposed moratorium on such schemes, as was proposed by the Liberal Democrats at their conference the other day?

We made the point in our exchanges last week and I will make it again this week. What matters is what works. The people of Scotland are not served well by the old-fashioned, dated ideology of the nationalists, nor by some of the wilder excesses of the Conservatives, who want wholesale privatisation. We are saying that if people require operations, the capacity exists and clinical judgments have been made by each health board to use those facilities, that is fine.

We also want to have a debate about the future of public services in Scotland and their reform from within. If we can add to a hospital programme by using private capital intelligently, the people of Scotland will welcome that warmly.

Let us leave ideology aside and assume that we want the best health service. From that, David McLetchie can take the fact that there is a role for what he has talked about. At the end of the day, we do not want a two-tier health service. The health service is a public service. We are proud of that fact. The key issue is the quality of the people that work in the health service.

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Economy (Impact of Terrorist Attacks)

To ask the First Minister what assessment the Scottish Executive has made of the impact on the economy of the recent terrorist attacks in the United States of America. (S1F-1256)

I have asked the Executive's economist to prepare an assessment of the likely impact on the Scottish economy of the recent tragic events in the USA. The report will be ready within the next couple of weeks.

I thank the First Minister for his answer. In the light of today's events, it is clear that we continue to live in uncertain times.

Does the First Minister share my concern that, even without events elsewhere, the Scottish economy is

"set for three years in the doldrums"

as Business a.m. put it, and that the manufacturing industry in Scotland is in recession? Does not that mean that the First Minister and the Executive should be giving more priority to the creation of wealth in Scotland than to spending Scotland's wealth?

The Executive wants to spend more time in ensuring that we acknowledge what is happening in the economy and that we do everything possible with our colleagues at Westminster to minimise the impact of recent developments in America and the downturn in the global economy. However, the danger is that we start to affect confidence and to talk down real achievements.

David Mundell is right. Based on figures for the first two quarters, manufacturing is in recession. However, the Fraser of Allander Institute, in its comments this morning, predicted lower growth for this year but some recovery in 2002. The institute acknowledges that, although considerable uncertainty remains, on current evidence Scotland should avoid recession.

I want to see the United Kingdom's sound fundamentals being built upon. We recognise the difficulties that have been created by the events of two weeks ago and by the global downturn. That is why we have requested the report from Andrew Goudie and his economists. We will want to share that report, when it is published, with the other parties. We all have a vested interest in talking up the Scottish economy and tackling problems where they emerge, whether they are in tourism, financial services or manufacturing. Let us collectively boost the confidence of the country, because we will need that confidence in the months that lie ahead.

I welcome the First Minister's commitment to make public Andrew Goudie's report.

Will the First Minister give serious consideration to the proposal by Bill Speirs of the Scottish Trades Union Congress that Parliament should convene a meeting that involves key sectors of business, the trade unions and others, to look at the economic consequences of the events of the past three weeks and to agree what urgent action, if any, is required? Furthermore, if Andrew Goudie's report identifies particular problems in key sectors, such as the airline industry, tourism and insurance, will the Executive be prepared to take the necessary action—for example, by pressing for the suspension of the airport tax, which would help tourism and the airline industry?

First, I welcome Alex Neil's comments, because they are constructive on the issues that we face in the Scottish economy at present. Secondly, I had meetings with the STUC and the Trades Union Congress recently. Both organisations are writing, to me and to the Prime Minister respectively, to engage in dialogue. If we are to build confidence, I welcome the fact that we are to speak with our trade union colleagues.

I also want to speak to the business community. However, we will await the outcome of Andrew Goudie's report and then look at the sectors on which we need to concentrate. We need to retain confidence and work with Westminster—the fundamentals are sound—and then build towards some involvement, where that is required. It is important that the Parliament works together on this issue. I can give the assurance from this spot that we want to do that.

The First Minister will understand that the Inverness to Gatwick air link is vital to Highlands tourism and therefore to the Highlands economy. Given that airlines are cutting services, will the Executive consider applying a public service obligation to that route as an incentive to airlines to continue operating that link?

I confirm to Jamie Stone that we are in dialogue about that with the appropriate department down south. It is important for tourism and economic development in the Highlands and Islands that we try to maintain the routes that exist, win back the routes that have been lost and win new routes. I reassure Jamie Stone that we are working towards that. That is fundamental, because the airline business is facing a difficult next few months. Those matters have become more important in the scheme of things. I give that reassurance.

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Social Justice Objectives

To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Executive's plans for personal care for older people will contribute to social justice. (S1F-1270)

We have placed older people at the heart of our social justice agenda. Implementing free personal and nursing care is another huge step towards ensuring fairness and equity in the way in which we care for all older people and shows clearly that the Executive is delivering on its social justice commitments.

I thank the First Minister for his answer. He may be aware that yesterday and today the whole Parliament congratulated him, the ministers with responsibility for health, and the care development group on their work on free personal care. The First Minister's steadfast and clear leadership on the issue has been pivotal in our reaching the present point.

Will the First Minister go one step further by ensuring that the implementation group, the establishment of which Susan Deacon announced yesterday, will examine the strategic management of the community care sector, including delayed discharges and the programme of closing unsuitable, out-of-hours, long-stay national health service beds?

The first part of Dr Simpson's question might have been uncomfortable for some, but I quite enjoyed it.

As usual, Dr Simpson has raised some wider issues relating to longer-term care. The Minister for Health and Community Care was, of course, listening to him. While we are talking about free personal care, I hope that we will recall that the Minister for Health and Community Care has invested in that package a substantial amount of money to ensure that the infrastructure for long-term care is widely developed, which means that we must consider issues such as bedblocking and the future of residential care. That said, a new era is opening up for older people in Scotland. The Parliament should share my pride about what we are doing.

I, too, congratulate the First Minister on completing his party's U-turn on free personal care earlier this week. That was a victory for the Parliament and the people of Scotland. Now that the First Minister has seen off his health minister, will he give us a personal guarantee that he will also see off Westminster in its attempts to withdraw attendance allowance from Scottish pensioners?

I thought that we were heading for a more positive comment. We in the coalition live in hope.

On Nicola Sturgeon's latter point, of course we are discussing those issues with our colleagues at Westminster. That is fairly normal for part of a Government that is two years into its existence as part of the devolution settlement. Discussions continue. We look for a positive outcome. That is the position at present.

We must also remember that the Parliament is doing tremendous work. A bill must be passed. We must start in April 2002. That is the new year that is opening up. Discussions will continue at Westminster. When we have a conclusion on those discussions, we will be happy to report to the chamber.

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Meat and Livestock (Export Ban)

To ask the First Minister when the Scottish Executive expects the export ban on meat and livestock imposed by the European Commission to be lifted. (S1F-1267)

The Minister for Environment and Rural Development will continue to press the strong case for resuming lamb exports from Scotland. Because the resumption of exports depends on the agreement of other member states, one cannot predict when the ban will be lifted.

That response had an uncharacteristic and singular lack of optimism. Is that because the OIE, the international body for animal health, must declare Scotland to be disease free before the ban can be lifted and that that cannot occur until that body's next meeting, which is in March 2002?

That is not the situation. All of us are in politics to be optimistic, but we must be realistic in the aftermath of what has been a considerable problem for the United Kingdom and for Scotland.

Let us be clear that the last confirmed case was on 13 May—17 weeks or almost four calendar months ago—and 90 per cent of Scotland has remained disease free. Of course Ross Finnie and the coalition want to resume exports as soon as possible. Every possible step is being taken to ensure that that happens. We are having discussions with the United Kingdom and Europe, and with vets—name the discussion and this Executive is involved in it. [Members: "Answer."] Some members are shouting "Answer"; we are saying that every possible effort will be made to ensure that, when the appropriate time comes, we will put the case for Scotland—as we are doing—and try to get the exports resumed.

Despite the publication of glossy Scottish Executive documents about relationships with Europe, and irrespective of the lifting of the ban, there will be a longer-term effect on the sale of lamb meat and beef to Europe. What is the First Minister doing to ease the way into the marketplace for those Scottish products once the ban has been lifted?

We are keen to be at the heart of Europe. That is the communiqué that has been outlined. We are working hard as an Administration to ensure that when the opportunity arises, we can exploit it. We want to ensure that we get our exports started as soon as possible. In the aftermath of serious situations such as the foot-and-mouth outbreak, we must work with the United Kingdom and Europe to ensure that we make progress. That is what we are doing.

Will the First Minister kindly ask his officials to study the issue of carcase-only transportation? The foot-and-mouth disaster gives us a chance to look to a better future for both animals and human beings. Carcase-only transportation would lead to the reopening of local abattoirs, cut down on infection risk and end the abysmal cruelty, which our European partners abhor, that is involved in animals being trucked thousands of miles.

It is the hallmark of the Administration, and I hope of the Parliament, that animal welfare is crucial to what we are doing. Dorothy-Grace Elder invites me to go further than I might want to go this afternoon. Suffice to say that animal welfare is crucial but the main thing is that, to rebuild confidence after a difficult period, we work together to get the export ban lifted and start to work in agriculture to get back to the position that we were in before. It is a major challenge; we must work on animal welfare and on exports. I believe that there is a future for farming but we must be patient and go forward painstakingly.