Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill
The next item of business is a debate on motion S1M-2855, in the name of Mr Jim Wallace, which seeks agreement that the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill be passed.
Motion S1M-2855 gives me particular pleasure. First, I will deal with a formal matter. For the purposes of rule 9.11 of standing orders, I advise the Parliament that Her Majesty has signified her consent to the bill in so far as it affects her interests.
I express my gratitude to the many people who have been involved with the bill in the work leading up to its introduction and during its passage through the Parliament. I thank Christine Grahame and the Justice 1 Committee, as well as the Equal Opportunities Committee and the Subordinate Legislation Committee, for all their work on the bill since last September. I also thank the many members who made helpful and challenging suggestions during the bill's passage and the committee clerks and parliamentary staff who ensured the smooth running of the process. Particular recognition should go to the hundreds of individuals and organisations that took time to contribute their views in written responses to both the Executive's consultations and to that of the Justice 1 Committee. Recognition should also go to those who gave oral evidence to the committee.
The Executive has had a useful and constructive dialogue with organisations such as the Campaign for Freedom of Information, Friends of the Earth Scotland, the Scottish Consumer Council and the statutory equality bodies. That effort—the result of the work of many people—has helped to make a good bill better. As a result, the bill is not discriminatory—it never was—but discussions with bodies such as the Disability Rights Commission have ensured that the access provisions for those with a disability are much clearer. I believe that the Justice 1 Committee's prompting has borne fruit in that regard. Finally, I pay tribute to the dedication and exceptional hard work of my officials, solicitors and parliamentary counsel.
I firmly believe that today's debates on the bill represent a significant milestone in the delivery of an effective freedom of information regime for Scotland. This is an Executive that is delivering on its commitments; this is a partnership that is delivering results. Indeed, this is devolution delivering. We are delivering our objectives of promoting accountability, public participation and good and open government.
We can reflect on the general welcome that the Executive's freedom of information proposals have received from the time of the pre-legislative consultation paper, "An Open Scotland", onwards. Quite properly, there has been vigorous debate about aspects of the bill. Some of the issues that we have considered have been complex. However, at the core of the bill remain the fundamental principles of an effective freedom of information regime that, I believe, can stand comparison with any other. The Scottish freedom of information regime will provide for a right of access to information that is held by Scottish public authorities; a limited range of exemptions to protect sensitive information that rightly should be protected; a stiff harm test of substantial prejudice; and a public interest test that is tipped decisively in favour of disclosure. Not least, the Scottish regime will provide for a fully independent Scottish information commissioner, who will be appointed on the nomination of the Parliament and who will have strong powers to promote and enforce the statutory regime.
The bill has a unique, distinctive approach that was made in Scotland and specifically tailored to meet the needs of Scotland and the Scottish people. I believe that better openness leads to better scrutiny and better accountability, which, in turn, lead to better government. This is a good bill that has been made better through the scrutiny of the Parliament. I hope that the Parliament takes some pride in the bill's passage.
This is not the end of the process. The Executive is committed not only to the timely and effective implementation of the bill—we will work closely with the commissioner to achieve that—but to promoting a general culture of openness throughout public services in Scotland. Against that background, I have great pleasure in commending the bill to the Parliament.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees that the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill be passed.
I am sure that the majority of members will welcome the passage today of this important bill. Let me briefly add my thanks to the committee's staff—the amount of work that is placed on them often goes unnoticed—and members. I also thank those organisations that gave us evidence, which we found extremely useful in our consideration of the bill's provisions. The committee's scrutiny of the bill led to significant changes being made to it. I believe that those changes are for the better and will only improve the freedom of information regime that the bill introduces.
I continue to have concerns about the issues that I raised today—the question of campaigning and the use of the ministerial veto. However, the passage of the bill is only the beginning of the process. We have only to look at the experiences of other countries that have introduced freedom of information legislation. The effectiveness of the bill will not merely be down to its provisions; a change to the culture of secrecy that exists in many of our public services is required. I believe that that is the greatest challenge that the bill faces. The Information Commissioner of Canada said only last year that it has taken some 10 to 15 years to start to break down the culture of secrecy that exists in many of Canada's public services. I believe that such a culture is probably even more deep-rooted in Scotland. I hope that the public authorities are gearing themselves up so that they will be ready for the legislation. I wish the bill well in its passage.
The Conservatives have consistently and at all stages been in favour of open government. However, in our view, open government need not necessarily mean a bureaucratic system that will cost the taxpayer £4.8 million a year.
The bill could equally well be known as the restriction of information bill, as it contains countless exemptions. In 1994, the Conservatives introduced the "Code of Practice on Access to Government Information". By July 1997, more than 77,500 records had been released. The benefit of that system was that it combined openness with flexibility. By specifying so many exemptions, the bill does not provide that flexibility. That means that further amending legislation will be required as and when the exemptions need to be amended.
On 19 December, in response to a written parliamentary question, the Deputy First Minister stated:
"It is not possible to predict what new information … will be made available as a result of the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill."—[Official Report, Written Answers, 19 December 2001; p 433.]
He is, of course, right. As I have pointed out, the bill is a costly experiment in tinkering with what the minister calls the culture of secrecy.
Our commitment to open government, accessibility and accountability is absolute, but a further bureaucratic burden on the electorate is not strictly necessary to pursue those aims.
Will the member give way?
No. I must be brief, as I have only three minutes.
Our fear is that the bill will make more information secret than was the case under the previous code of practice. I realise that both Mr Wallace and Dr Simpson regard the legislation as something of a personal crusade, but the electorate will have to foot the bill. It will be our purpose to continue to act as the guardians of the public interest. We will vote against the bill.
What Lord James said was disgraceful.
I welcome the opportunity to speak for the Labour party and I welcome the imminent completion of the bill. Like others, I place on record my thanks to the Justice 1 Committee, the Equal Opportunities Committee and the clerks, who have, as usual, excelled themselves in providing members with everything that we needed to examine the bill properly. I also pay tribute to the Minister for Justice and the Deputy Minister for Justice, as well as to Iain Gray, who, as the former Deputy Minister for Justice, contributed to the bill's progress.
The bill implements the Labour party's long-term commitment to introduce freedom of information legislation. It complements the Freedom of Information Act 2000, which was passed at Westminster. I whole-heartedly welcome the bill, as it will help to change the culture of government in Scotland and ordinary people's perception of government. The bill is not for campaign groups and lobbyists but for ordinary people who need information from the council, the health board or the Government.
In my speech during the stage 1 debate, I made it clear that we must end the mutual suspicion that exists between those who provide information—who are concerned about the implications of, and the time and money that are involved in, supplying information—and those who, weary of hitting a wall of officialdom, seek or request such information. I believe that the bill will end that mutual suspicion. Ordinary people want recognition that they have a right to request information and that they are not imposing on the public body by asking for information. I hope that the time between the passing of the bill and its implementation—which is somewhat longer than I anticipated—will be used to the full to bring about that change of culture.
The Executive has listened carefully to the major concerns that were raised by the Justice 1 Committee and by individual members and organisations. Some of those concerns meant that we had to negotiate with ministers right to the wire over issues such as the provisions for disabled people. However, I am now content that we have done all that is possible to ensure that disabled people and others who have communication difficulties are not disadvantaged. The Executive has shown a willingness to change provisions to address the concerns of the committee, which rigorously examined the bill, and of outside organisations.
I believe that all the major concerns have been addressed. As a result, we now have a better bill, which will mark a fundamental change in the relationship between Government and people. The bill would not have happened without the Labour Government at Westminster and the Labour-led Scottish Executive. I thank the Liberal Democrats for their support for what is a properly balanced bill—although in the committee and in the chamber one was not always sure how Donald Gorrie would vote. I am sure that he and all other members—including the Conservatives, I hope—will support the bill.
Without being smug, we can take pride in what we have done. We have demonstrated yet again to the doubters that it is worth while having the Parliament. We have a much better bill than the one that was passed at Westminster. We had a minister who—because of his political convictions as a Liberal Democrat—had strong beliefs and therefore pushed the bill vigorously. He has produced a very good bill. We then had the Parliament scrutinising the bill rigorously. The minister took quite a lot of flak in the Justice 1 Committee but, as a result, significant improvements were made to the bill. Ministers conceded on quite a number of issues. They did not concede on every issue—life is not like that—but the result was at the very least an honourable high-scoring draw between the ministers and the Parliament. The system has worked. We have made a good bill even better.
The bill is important, but the real struggle now begins. In life, it is people who are the problem, not rules. Many people in national Government, local government and quangos are brought up in a climate of secrecy—especially in national Government. Civil servants are taught not to tell MPs or MSPs anything at all if they can avoid it. They need education. We need a revolution to make our civil servants into open people.
A Swedish king was converted to Christianity during the dark days. He marched his army through a river and said, "Right men—you are all now Christians." We need that sort of conversion among civil servants. I look to the ministers to lead that conversion, but we must all help.
This is a good bill. I offer congratulations and thanks to all those who deserve thanks.
I am not sure—I may have been sitting here too long—but I think that I followed what Donald Gorrie said.
I thank the minister for congratulating the Justice 1 Committee. I also thank my colleagues on the committee, as we often had to forgo shortbread and tea just to be sure that we got through all the amendments—on far too tight a timetable as usual.
The Parliament must keep its eye on the consequences of the legislation. The codes of practice will be important. We have seen drafts, but we have not yet seen the final codes.
Financing will also be important. The committee was concerned that there should be sufficient resources not only for the commissioner but for the public authorities so that the proper goals of the bill can be pursued.
The calibre of the commissioner herself or himself will be important, because that person will set the tone for implementing the bill, for the positive pursuit of freedom of information in Scotland and for the promotion of a culture of openness—something that has been lacking.
I cannot resist saying this: I am opting for the big bang that the minister has offered, rather than that we do things in stages. I prefer the former simply because the public will know where they are. The public do not follow the minutiae of legislation but, if things are done quickly, people will be able to say that the doors to information in Scotland are open.
I echo Donald Gorrie and say that this is a good day for the Parliament. I hope that it is not too humbling for Jim Wallace if I say that this is also a good day for him, as his stamp is all over the bill. We would not have had the same bill had it not been for his personal commitment.
The bill is strong. It will stand the test of time. However, I urge the minister to be diligent in the designations. It would be quite intolerable if, in time, the Glasgow Housing Association, the prisons bodies that have been mentioned and a number of other bodies of that kind are not designated when the bill comes into force, as it will shortly.
The bill will be a major blast through the corridors of power. I echo the comments of others that the bill will lead to an extremely important change of culture. People who are inside a room discussing things that are vital to the public have an almost automatic urge to think that they are important, as they are the ones making the decisions. That leads to an unwillingness to tell the people out there what has been discussed. The bill is about rights and citizenship and it will change that inward-looking culture.
At earlier stages of the bill and during today's debate, I have been astonished by the attitude of the Conservatives. They got the tone and reality of the debate utterly wrong. It is important that people have rights and that citizenship is developed in our new Scotland. Today is a good day for the Parliament. Let us move forward and complete the passage of the bill.
Today marks a significant day in the development of a freedom of information regime in Scotland. It has been nearly two and a half years since the first consultation document, "An Open Scotland", was published. A lot of hard work has been done to get to where we are now. Throughout the process, I have been encouraged by the broad and positive response that we have received. I am pleased that the need for this important piece of legislation has been largely recognised. However, I cannot let the speech of the Tory spokesman go by without whispering, "Arms to Iraq, the Scott inquiry and BSE." The Tories presided over them all. [Interruption.]
Order.
If the people of Scotland needed a greater reminder of the paternalistic and authoritarian approach of the Conservative party, they had it today. People do not have rights under Conservative regimes—people have to beg for information.
A participative approach to the development, consideration and scrutiny of policy and legislation was one of the key principles of the consultative steering group on the Scottish Parliament. We are appreciative of the large number of members of the public, voluntary groups and other organisations who made an important and valued input to the process by contributing to the Executive's consultations on "An Open Scotland" and the draft bill. Their views have helped to shape the bill and make it a balanced and representative piece of legislation.
I, too, would like to take the opportunity to thank all those who have been involved in the development and passage of the bill. I did not enter the Scottish Parliament, after spending a lifetime in a professional career as a doctor, to undermine the rights of those with disability. I would like to add yet another commitment to the pledges that Jim Wallace and I have made today in respect of disability rights: we will work with the relevant organisations to ensure that the codes of practice—Christine Grahame referred to them as being the next crucial step in the process—are drawn up and implemented in a way that ensures that the rights of all citizens are protected.
The bill fulfils the Executive and coalition commitment to introduce an effective freedom of information regime. For the first time, the public will have a statutory right of access to information held by a wide range of Scottish public authorities. It goes a long way towards supporting greater openness right across the Scottish public sector. It encourages the proactive disclosure of information and it underlines the importance of open and responsive administration. Donald Gorrie's analogy of the Swedish king and the conversion might be a little extreme but, as he and others have suggested, it is important that we have a culture in which there is greater openness.
I look forward to the appointment of the Scottish information commissioner, who will promote and enforce the legislation. We have ensured that the Scottish information commissioner is independent, with strong powers to order the disclosure of information. We believe that a culture of openness will develop across the Scottish public sector and we will do all in our power to support that. The commissioner will play an important role in delivering freedom of information in Scotland.
The bill delivers a strong and robust legislative framework that will result in an effective freedom of information regime that is right for Scotland.
I commend the Freedom of Information (Scotland) Bill to the Parliament.