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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 23, 2010


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-2576)

Later today, I have meetings to take forward the Government’s programme for Scotland.

Iain Gray

Two weeks ago, I called for a cross-party campaign, together with trade unions, on the aircraft carrier contracts. I am pleased that that has happened.

At one of the meetings in St Andrew’s house, I could not help noticing on the wall a large, North Korean-style slogan, with a great leader-style quote:

“Our one central purpose is to increase Scotland’s economic growth.”

It was signed A Salmond. If that is the First Minister’s purpose, has he not failed miserably?

The First Minister

Here was me thinking that Iain Gray was going to centre on a consensual point about all the parties represented in the chamber uniting to defend Scottish jobs. As we unite to defend the key jobs in the defence sector in Scotland, which is reliant on the air force bases and the carrier contracts, we should also reflect on the other challenges to Scottish economic recovery. Those challenges are partly in the public sector, with the swingeing cuts that are forecast—two thirds from the previous Administration and one third from the current one. There is also the inability to get finance to our small and medium-sized business sector, which is crippling many companies. Those are the challenges that Iain Gray should focus on.

Despite everything, I am still prepared to welcome the consensus that we have established to fight for Scottish jobs, and we should all be proud of that.

Iain Gray

Those are indeed the challenges of the day. The question of the day is this: why is Alex Salmond’s Government failing them?

Let us take yesterday’s report from the independent Joseph Rowntree Foundation, which said that Scotland is getting poorer faster than England. One of the report’s authors spelled it out:

“It had enjoyed a good three years between ... 2005-2008 but since then things have slipped away steadily and are still getting worse and that is before one has talked about the possible effects of the cuts.”

Is that not a damning indictment of the First Minister’s Government?

The First Minister

I do not worry so much about Iain Gray’s inability to predict the future; it is more when he cannot correctly interpret what has happened. Actually, Scotland went through the recession better than the rest of the United Kingdom did, with a lower fall in output. Our difficulty is a fragile economic recovery. When we try to build an economic recovery, we must consider how public sector investment can be maintained and how the private sector can be given the funds to enable it to invest. Those are the challenges for Scotland. The biggest asset in meeting those challenges would be for the Parliament to have the economic powers to raise the Scottish growth rate and take us forward to prosperity.

Iain Gray

The First Minister is simply in denial. Let us interpret the present. As of today, unemployment in Scotland is still going up, whereas it is going down in the rest of the country. Compared with last year, there are 50,000 more Scots sitting at home because they cannot get a job. They see Alex Salmond sitting at home in Bute house doing nothing and they are asking, when is the First Minister finally going to take some responsibility?

The First Minister

Let us talk about what the Government is doing today to increase Scotland’s economic prospects. Today, the Minister for Housing and Communities will be announcing a £130 million investment in the Scottish national housing trust, and 12 local authorities have agreed to participate. That will generate 1,000 jobs in the construction industry. Today, I will be announcing officially that Scotland’s renewable energy target is being lifted from 50 per cent of consumption in 2020 to 80 per cent of consumption in 2020, thanks to the 35 major renewables schemes that the Government has authorised in its term of office. [Interruption.]

Mrs Craigie, stop please.

The First Minister

That is the action that will secure Scotland’s prosperity.

I turn to the other thing that is desperately needed. Just as we suffered during Labour’s recession, we do not want to see our recovery impeded by a coalition that is determined to cut public investment without securing the private funds that are required to stimulate the economy. On that subject, Iain Gray and Labour have nothing to say, because they will not accept that this Parliament and this Government need to have the economic powers to do the job for Scotland.

Iain Gray

The 136,000 Scots on the dole are sick of hearing from Alex Salmond what he cannot do rather than what he can do. It is not just the unemployed who are suffering; it is the 260,000 children who are living in poverty. The rate in Scotland is increasing—[Interruption.]

Order.

Iain Gray

It is increasing twice as fast as the rate in the rest of the country—on his watch.

The Salmond slump cost Scotland 40,000 jobs. He cut 3,000 teaching jobs and 4,000 jobs in the national health service. This First Minister inherited a Scotland where employment was higher than it was in the rest of the country, unemployment was lower and child poverty was dropping faster. He has thrown all that away. This First Minister is leaving Scotland poorer than he found it.

Now the Tory cuts are coming.

Come to a question, please, Mr Gray.

Is that not a legacy of miserable failure?

The First Minister

I think that Iain Gray should occasionally glance at what the Joseph Rowntree Foundation said about the poverty record of the previous Labour Government—it tore it to shreds.

Iain Gray should also know that, when I met the Scottish Trades Union Congress yesterday, it pointed out to me that the number of construction jobs in Scotland had risen by 20,000 in the last quarter, which Iain Gray does not realise or does not accept. I had a look at the comparative statistics on Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. In the last quarter, construction employment in Scotland went up by almost 9 per cent; in the UK, it was down 5 per cent. I know that those statistics are new to Iain Gray, but he really must keep up with the results of the public investment in housing and other things that the Government has supplied.

As far as what will happen in elections is concerned, I am grateful to Bill Jamieson for the election strategy that he offered me today. He said:

“Salmond needs only to whisper the two most deadening words in Scottish politics, a whispered name that could cause his most raging critics to slump comatose on the parliament floor. It is a name that reduces barking dogs to a whimper and makes the most neurotic cats sleep through a march past of mice. Throw away the sedatives and repeat until the urge to fall asleep closes totally in: Iain Gray.”


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)



2. To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-2577)

I met the Secretary of State for Scotland last week and I have no immediate plans to meet him again.

Annabel Goldie

“Via, veritas, vita”—the way, the truth, the life—is the motto of the University of Glasgow, whose principal, Anton Muscatelli, has warned that, in 2013, his university will “run out of cash”. That is certainly showing the way, telling the truth and facing up to life.

Anton Muscatelli accepts, as do many of his Scottish colleagues and Liam Burns of the National Union of Students Scotland, that the present funding system for universities is no longer an option. Change has to be made and made urgently. The clearly growing consensus is that graduates will have to make a contribution. Does the First Minister agree?

The First Minister

I saw Anton Muscatelli’s remarks; Annabel Goldie will, in fairness, wish me to record that he was quite clear that it was investment in the university sector by this Administration that had enabled Scottish universities to maintain their competitiveness and to survive rather better than those south of the border.

There are huge challenges coming up in university funding, as we await the announcement of the review south of the border. As Annabel Goldie knows, and as the parliamentary motion that was passed in June made clear, this Government will set out in a green paper the options for university funding.

I make it clear to Annabel Goldie that tuition fees are not part of our proposals for university funding. Restricting access to university cannot be the right way to fund the university and education system in Scotland.

Annabel Goldie

Having listened to that, I believe the First Minister’s motto should be veni, vidi, procrastinavi: I came, I saw, and I haven’t a clue.

At this stage, given the crisis that confronts our universities, talk of a green paper is far too little, far too late. For the record, the Scottish Conservatives rule out up-front fees, and we rule out a pure graduate tax, but we rule in a graduate contribution from income that is based on fairness and ability to pay.

We have put our cards on the table, but from the First Minister and the Scottish National Party we have had three years of dither, delay and indecision. Will Alex Salmond show some leadership? Will he accept that graduates will have to make a contribution—yes or no?

The First Minister

We have had three years of better funding of the higher education system in Scotland than there has been south of the border, which is acknowledged by every major figure in the university and college sector in Scotland. The challenges that are coming—which are going to come quickly—will be put forward in the Browne report, which was commissioned by the previous Labour Government and taken forward by the coalition Government. It is right and proper that we publish a Scottish response to that, which we will do by the end of the year, but we need a Scottish system of funding.

Looking south of the border, I do not think that the systems of funding for universities have been in the interest of students or the institutions themselves. The draconian cuts in the university sector south of the border that were announced by the previous Government and are perhaps intensified under the current Government will not be in the interests of English education.

As we meet these challenges, let us find a Scottish solution that is compatible with Scotland’s traditions—a point, incidentally, that Anton Muscatelli made yesterday.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-2578)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Tavish Scott

I acknowledge that the First Minister chaired a meeting last night on the Commonwealth games in Delhi and I recognise, as I am sure we all do, the delicate and difficult balance between the safety and security needs of Scotland’s athletes and the enormous damage to the games if countries choose, for whatever reason, to boycott Delhi 2010. We all united to support Glasgow 2014. Is it not in Glasgow’s interest that team Scotland competes in India? Can the First Minister tell Parliament what officials are in Delhi to give up-to-the-minute reports that will allow team Scotland to go?

The First Minister

Team Scotland has a substantial delegation in situ at present. When I chaired yesterday’s meeting of the strategic group, we had direct information from people in Delhi who were reporting on the conditions as they found them. That puts us in a rather better position to assess the conditions in the athletes village than many of the other competing countries.

I agree with Tavish Scott that it is in the interests of everyone—not just Glasgow, but the entire Commonwealth—that the Commonwealth games go ahead successfully. However, he must understand that we have—and Commonwealth Games Scotland in particular has—a duty of care to our athletes. We cannot send people into unsafe conditions.

There was a meeting this morning of the chefs de mission, which was attended by the Chief Minister of Delhi. She has taken control of the situation and is offering guarantees on action to address the outstanding concerns. That is progress this morning. There will be an inspection of the village by the Commonwealth Games Federation tomorrow, in which our officials will take part. We will have a direct report on the federation’s view of the improvements that are promised, and we will then be in a good position in Scotland to assess the next decision on the Commonwealth games.

Tavish Scott

I certainly understand the duty of care to athletes, but does the First Minister accept that he has an enormous task to help to build confidence in the Commonwealth games to ensure that 2014 is as big as it can be? Usain Bolt will not be competing in Delhi because the games come at the end of a long athletics season. Our own Andy Murray will not be at the inaugural Commonwealth games tennis competition because of a clash with the Shanghai open. Scotland’s most successful Olympian, Chris Hoy, will not be taking part because the games clash with another championship that awards qualifying points for the Olympics. Given the need to avoid huge sporting events taking place at the same time, is it not important that the First Minister now speaks with the international sporting bodies to clear the way for Glasgow 2014 so that we can have the best athletes available in the biggest games possible?

The First Minister

Let me say two things. First, there has been a lot of concentration, rightly, on the state of the athletes village. I should say that we are perfectly satisfied with the inspection of the sporting facilities themselves and we have no greater concern about the security implications than we had previously. Assuming that those problems are addressed and solved, we have no doubt whatsoever that the Delhi Commonwealth games will be a magnificent and hugely successful sporting occasion for the people of India and for the Commonwealth as a whole.

Secondly, on clashes with other world and European events, one of the difficulties for the games in Delhi has been the timing, which is required because of the weather and the temperature and conditions for athletes. Of course, the Glasgow games will take place at a different time of year. The time has been established to avoid clashes wherever possible, although I do not say that it is impossible that there will be clashes. We cannot promise that every world-ranked athlete will compete in every Commonwealth games but, as I am sure Tavish Scott knows, across the range of events the Delhi Commonwealth games will have top-ranking athletes, with people in the top 10 in the world competing in virtually every event. The Commonwealth games is a fantastic multisport event, and I think that the Delhi games will be amazing. I know that everyone in the Parliament and everyone in the city of Glasgow will work hard to ensure that Glasgow emulates and, if possible, betters the Delhi games.

I will take a supplementary question from Jackie Baillie.

Jackie Baillie (Dumbarton) (Lab)

As the First Minister will be aware, the Vale of Leven public inquiry has already delayed taking further evidence about the C diff outbreak from September till the end of October, but we discovered today that it will now be delayed until early 2011. Although I believe that it is important that the inquiry does a thorough job, can he confirm that the timescale for the publication of the inquiry’s report will now be put well beyond the Scottish Parliament elections?

The First Minister

I think that, just occasionally, Jackie Baillie should accept that, if we launch a public inquiry, it is a matter for the chair of the inquiry how he or she decides to hear evidence and publish a report. If a Government tried to dictate or alter the timetable one way or another, that would obviate the whole purpose of having an independent public inquiry. When Jackie Baillie starts to think about it, she will see that the suggestion of politicking is rather beneath the standards that we should accept in the Parliament.


Prisoners (Right to Vote)



4. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s position is on prisoners having the right to vote. (S3F-2579)

The Scottish Government does not agree that convicted prisoners should be entitled to vote while they are serving a prison sentence.

Stewart Maxwell

Like many in the Parliament, I am totally opposed to rapists, murderers and drug pushers getting the right to vote. They have given up their right to participate in decent society by their actions. It is a disgrace that forces outside Scotland are trying to force such a change upon us. Even worse is the fact that, thanks to incompetence by the previous Labour Government at Westminster, some of these criminals may now try to claim compensation from taxpayers across the United Kingdom. Does the First Minister agree that voters in Scotland should not have to suffer any more bungled handling of elections by Westminster and that responsibility for our own elections must be devolved to the Scottish Parliament as soon as possible?

The First Minister

I agree with that. Apart from anything else, I think that it is quite remarkable that any member should believe that it is right and proper for this Parliament to have legislative competence and authority over climate change—perhaps the greatest issue facing the planet—but not over the running of its own elections. How can anyone possibly believe or sustain that position? If the Scotland Office’s track record on running elections were beyond reproach, there might be something of an argument to be had, but I do not think that anyone would argue that either.

Incidentally, looking at the previous Government’s two consultations and its prevarication and delay on the thorny issue of prisoners and voting, I do not think that it covered itself in glory either.

Richard Baker (North East Scotland) (Lab)

The previous Government resisted making the changes for exactly the reasons that the First Minister gave earlier. However, he might be aware that the current UK Government is reviewing the policy. Have any discussions taken place with the UK Government on what impact there might be on retrospective claims by prisoners who are now registered to vote, and what costs there might be to the Scottish Prison Service or the Scottish Government?

The First Minister

According to our legal advice, any costs would apply to the UK Government, which might concentrate minds.

Something about Mr Baker’s question puzzles me. He said that the Labour Government had avoided coming to a position. It did so by introducing its first consultation paper on the issue in December 2006 and a second consultation paper in 2009, closing the consultation in December 2009 and then handing the thorny problem over to its successor Westminster Government. I think that it would be wrong for convicted prisoners to have the right to vote and the public would be outraged if compensation claims on the matter were made on any Government, whether in Scotland or the UK. However, Richard Baker should face up to the fact that the previous Labour Government’s strategy in dealing with the question was to wait until it was out of office.

Robert Brown (Glasgow) (LD)

The First Minister is missing the point. The UK is signed up to the European convention on human rights, so it is under the obligation to follow the protocol that refers to free and fair elections. Is he not aware that the European Court of Human Rights has made a decision on the matter? Is he suggesting that, if Scotland were independent, it would opt out of the European convention on human rights? What is the Scottish Government’s position on that?

The First Minister

A couple of things would improve if Scotland were an independent nation. First, we would have the same protection against compensation claims as any other country has at the moment, instead of theoretically being liable for 10 years of compensation claims—members will remember that in connection with another thorny issue. That would be a distinct improvement if Scotland were independent.

Secondly, I know that the Liberals are understandably keen on the European Court of Human Rights and the European convention on human rights. However, I cannot believe that, back in 1997 when there was blanket signing up to the ECHR, those of us who argued very strongly that human rights should be observed across the European continent thought that one of the key issues would be to give convicted prisoners the right to vote. For most people, that does not seem to be what we would consider to be an important human right.


Teacher Numbers



5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s response is to the recently published public sector employment statistics, which showed a reduction of almost 3,000 in teacher numbers between 2007 and 2010. (S3F-2581)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

We are concerned that the number of teaching posts has fallen and about the impact that that has on the lives of unemployed teachers. Given the political responsibility for such issues, it should not be forgotten, however, that Glasgow City Council alone was responsible for 25 per cent of the drop in teacher numbers last year, and that the 12 councils where Labour is in or shares administration are responsible for two thirds of the drop in teacher numbers. I hope that Des McNulty will have a word with some of his colleagues across local government and persuade them to give a higher priority to the employment of young teachers.

Des McNulty

“It wisnae me”—what a surprise.

As the First Minister knows, and the Scottish Parliament information centre will confirm, Scottish National Party-controlled Renfrewshire Council has the highest percentage reduction in teacher numbers. Under the nationalists, Scotland no longer compares attainment in maths, science and reading literacy skills with other countries. Instead of data and delivery, all parents and teachers get is bluster and self-congratulation from the Cabinet Secretary for Education and Lifelong Learning. When the education statistics that are due out in December confirm yet another significant drop in teacher numbers year on year, and the performance of this cabinet secretary is shown to be even worse than that of the previous one, will the First Minister send for him and demote him back to his old job?

The First Minister

If that is Des McNulty’s second question, obviously he could not challenge the information that was delivered in my first answer. It is true that the 12 councils with a Labour administration are responsible for two thirds of the drop in teacher numbers. Many teachers and their families watching this broadcast will think that Des McNulty is weeping crocodile tears, when he is unable to convince his colleagues. [Interruption.]

Order.

The First Minister

I will explain why it is that, while education budgets over the past three years have been rising and while local government’s share of the Scottish budget has been rising, certain education authorities have found themselves under pressure. It is not just the lack of political commitment from Labour councils to employing teachers; it is also the rising private finance initiative payments that are affecting education budgets. In 2008-09, PFI payments were £244 million—a rise of £62 million on the previous year. The next time that Labour members pronounce that PFI was the best thing since sliced bread, they should look at what it is doing to education budgets the length and breadth of Scotland.


Public Sector Salaries



6. To ask the First Minister how many people employed in the public sector are paid more than he is. (S3F-2588)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

As the member will know, ministerial salaries in Scotland have been frozen since 2008. I mention that because the BBC statistics that I saw this morning did not reflect that. We have statistics for the number of people throughout the public sector in Scotland who are paid more than £150,000. Our statistics say that 529 people are in that position; 500 of them are clinical staff in the national health service.

Jeremy Purvis

I am sure that the First Minister would be able to say how many of them received a bonus this year.

The freedom of information responses confirmed by the BBC research show that 936 people in publicly funded bodies in Scotland are paid more than the First Minister is. I am sure that he would want me to stress that those 936 people are not necessarily more important than he is. Does he agree that the pay bill for the highest earners in the public sector in Scotland is too high? Would he support measures in the upcoming Scottish budget to make it transparent which bodies pay employees more than the First Minister and for such salaries to be approved specifically by Parliament?

The First Minister

As Jeremy Purvis knows, it is not just ministerial salaries that have been frozen. The pay of senior civil service staff has been frozen for 2010-11. The policy for non-departmental public body chief executives is also to impose a freeze on basic pay for those staff.

When I gave the statistics about pay in the national health service, Jeremy Purvis asked how much of that was in bonuses. Surely he cannot be unaware of the Scottish Government’s action to try to restrain distinction awards in the NHS. I have a long list of the actions that have been taken. The previous Labour Government refused to take any action south of the border. I am pleased to say that, on 20 August, the current Secretary of State for Health at least announced a review of the distinction awards scheme, directly as a result of the initiative taken by Nicola Sturgeon. [Interruption.] I hear Mr Rumbles rumbling, but I have here a list of the pressures applied by the Scottish Government to try to restrain the distinction awards that make up the vast majority of the pay of highly paid staff. I say to Mr Rumbles that we froze those awards this year. We did not even wait for the consultation document from the coalition Government. However, we are delighted to acknowledge that, after only five months in government, the new Administration has finally got round to publishing a consultation document, and that it might do what Nicola Sturgeon did last spring.

12:29 Meeting suspended until 14:15.

14:15 On resuming—