Concorde (Museum of Flight)
The final item of business today is a members' business debate on motion S2M-59, in the name of John Home Robertson, on Concorde and the Museum of Flight. I invite those members who wish to speak in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now, and those members who are leaving to take flight at once.
Shame!
That shows that someone out there is listening.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament notes that British Airways will be withdrawing Concorde aircraft from service and welcomes the approach from the Chairman of the Trustees of the National Museums of Scotland to the Chief Executive of British Airways requesting that one of these aeroplanes is donated to the Museum of Flight at East Fortune; recognises the interests of education and tourism and the important role that museums play in both of these areas; takes into account the associations of Concorde with Scotland, namely that the design of the wings was undertaken by a Scot from Penicuik, Sir James Arnot Hamilton, that the early test flights were carried out at Prestwick in the early 1970s and that it was Concorde that flew over Edinburgh to celebrate the opening of the Scottish Parliament in July 1999; further recognises the wealth of experience of staff at the Museum of Flight in the preservation of aircraft and their years of experience in welcoming visitors to the museum; further notes that staff at the Museum of Flight are confident that the practicalities of landing a Concorde aircraft and of providing enclosed space for display have been investigated and that no difficulties are anticipated following a brief period of minor works; notes that the National Museums of Scotland has recently appointed a new General Manager at the Museum of Flight and that a major programme of development is planned to position the museum as a world class attraction, and recommends strongly that support be given to the National Museums of Scotland in its bid for Concorde for display at the Museum of Flight.
Having spent the morning giving evidence to the Finance Committee about another high-profile, high-tech, high-cost project, I am grateful for this opportunity to raise the subject of the Concorde supersonic airliner. Concorde is about to be grounded after 30 years, but I am confident that Scotland's new democracy will keep flying in the Holyrood building for at least 10 times that long.
I think that both of us, Presiding Officer, are old enough to remember the heady days of Harold Wilson's white-hot technological revolution. I seem to recall that Tony Benn was a pillar of the political establishment in 1968, when Concorde was rolled out at Bristol. The Concorde project was expensive and controversial at the time, but most of us were enthusiastic about what was an exciting and new European civil aircraft, which expressed the optimism and innovation of the 1960s. In those days, people were keen on new scientific ideas, and they were excited about technology and engineering.
However, the development of a potentially valuable, world-beating airliner in Europe was viewed with deep suspicion in the United States of America, where the authorities developed a rather uncharacteristic objection to aircraft noise. Who knows? If supersonic airliners had been invented in the United States, the skies might be full of them—but I am sure that the land of the free market would never indulge in protectionism.
It is one of my many disappointments that I have never flown in Concorde but, like many French and British citizens, I have always taken great pride in Concorde as the ultimate development in civil aviation. We have come to expect military aircraft to do astonishing things, but Concorde enables civilians to travel faster than the speed of sound. It is a beautiful aircraft and I can only marvel at the joy of an airliner that gets one to one's destination before it takes off.
Since Concorde, the civil aerospace industry has been able to produce only bigger and uglier jumbo jets—vast airborne torture chambers for prolonged endurance by passengers who have the misfortune to be taller than 5ft. I just had to make that point. I apologise.
The seven British Airways Concordes have been flying for 27 years. Those of us who can remember the excitement of Brian Trubshaw's test flights are 30 years older than we were then, and so are the airframes. Sadly, those fabulous airliners cannot go on flying for ever, whatever Richard Branson might say, but it would be a sin to scrap such an important part of our technological heritage. We must stake a claim to get one of BA's Concordes for the National Museums of Scotland's Museum of Flight at East Fortune. I am delighted that Dr Gordon Rintoul, the director of the NMS, and his board have already made a formal request to British Airways as part of their ambitious plan to develop the East Fortune Museum of Flight.
I visited East Fortune yesterday to discuss with Bob Layden, the manager of the museum, the plan to house Concorde in one of the hangars there. Concorde could and should take its place beside the museum's Comet 4, which was one of the world's first passenger jet airliners—another British first in aviation.
I am indebted to my constituent Lord James Douglas-Hamilton for reminding me that Concorde has strong Scottish connections. The wings were designed by James Arnot Hamilton of Penicuik, and some of the test flights were made from Prestwick. Of course, all of us will remember the fly-past by Concorde and the Royal Air Force Red Arrows at the opening of the new Scottish Parliament in July 1999. That formation was assembled over East Lothian, so my constituents had a preview.
That brings me back to the specific point of the debate. The East Fortune Museum of Flight stands on a site that is steeped in aviation history. It was the take-off point for the first transatlantic airship flight back in 1919, it was an important RAF base in two world wars and the East Fortune museum now houses a spectacular collection of civil and military aircraft. Let me put in a plug for the East Fortune centenary of flight air show on 12 July. I am sure that many members will want to come along and join in the fun.
I also say in passing that the proposal by Transco to build a massive gas compressor station beside the historic site, dangerously close to a runway that may be needed for incoming aircraft in future, is an idiotic idea. Yes, there is a need for a compressor facility on the pipeline somewhere in East Lothian, but Transco is making a serious mistake if it thinks that it will be allowed to locate it at East Fortune. It would be well advised to start looking for a less unsuitable site. I ask the minister to convey that point to his colleague who deals with planning matters.
British Airways has stated that it is willing to give its Concorde aircraft to suitable museums for preservation and presentation as part of the national heritage. I whole-heartedly welcome the fact that the minister has already expressed the support of the Scottish Executive for the bid that has been made by the National Museums of Scotland to secure a Concorde airliner for the East Fortune collection. Scotland has a legitimate claim to one of those aircraft. Concorde at East Fortune would be a tremendous asset for the museum, for its visitors and for the development of tourism in East Lothian.
I am grateful for the support of 49 colleagues from all parties who signed the motion. In particular, I am grateful to James Douglas-Hamilton, who takes a special interest in East Fortune Museum of Flight.
I hope that the minister will be able to help us to ensure that Concorde comes to the museum at East Fortune, in my constituency, to form an extra attraction at the National Museums of Scotland's Museum of Flight.
Before I call the next member to speak, I invite Donald Gorrie to remove his card and reinsert it, because he is currently shown as being Kenneth Macintosh—that may be a new whipping arrangement.
It is an improvement. I am rising in the world.
Indeed.
You are now Donald Gorrie.
I warmly congratulate John Home Robertson on his success in bringing this extremely important subject before the Scottish Parliament and also on the enlightened wording of his motion.
The proposal to bring Concorde to the Museum of Flight at East Fortune is strongly supported by the National Museums of Scotland, the Scottish Executive, Edinburgh and Lothians Tourist Board, East Lothian Council, an enormous number of parliamentarians of all parties and all those in Scotland who are proud of Scotland's massive contribution to science, industry and aviation.
The Scots have been responsible for nearly a quarter of all Britain's most significant scientific inventions and in the case of Concorde there is, as John Home Robertson stated, a powerful Scottish connection. First, the wings were designed by Sir James Arnot Hamilton from Penicuik. Secondly, the early test flights of Concorde took place at Prestwick and, thirdly, just as the airship flew from East Fortune to North America in 1919 on the first ever transatlantic flight from east to west, so Concorde achieved the same at supersonic speed. Those were all historic events and it was no coincidence that Concorde made its welcoming appearance with the Red Arrows on the day on which the Scottish Parliament was formally opened.
Not only would the presence of this mighty aircraft provide many jobs at East Fortune, it would provide a terrific boost to tourism in Scotland, on much the same scale that Britannia did when it came to Leith. It would confirm the reality that the Museum of Flight is steadily but surely becoming a world-class attraction that is of tremendous interest to visitors from abroad as well as to countless schoolchildren. Already, about half of those who go to the museum come from outside Scotland. I strongly support John Home Robertson's comments about Transco.
The educational aspects of Concorde coming to the Museum of Flight are of enormous importance. It is natural that young people should feel an immense sense of pride in the inspiration shown by those who believe that the air is no more than a great navigable ocean that comes to every person's door.
In pressing our case today, it is as well that we should recall with respect those who put their lives on the line in their determination to drive back the frontiers and perils of the unknown and remember that many of the greatest advances that have gone to make up our aviation history have sadly been at the price of human life.
John Home Robertson described Concorde as a beautiful aircraft. I am certain that the Museum of Flight can and will, if given the opportunity to do so, do justice to this great aircraft and to the countless memories that are associated with it. I give strong support to the motion in the conviction that we can do more to help our countrymen and countrywomen in the future if we understand correctly their magnificent and courageous contributions in the past.
I speak mainly to indicate that there is multiparty—I suspect all-party—support for John Home Robertson's motion. He and Lord James Douglas-Hamilton have covered many of the issues.
I stress that I think that Scotland deserves a fair share of goodies, such as old Concordes, which are being distributed around museums and such like. It is helpful to build up the Museum of Flight. In the past in Scotland and the rest of Britain we have been at fault in not safeguarding our heritage. I do not think that any Clyde-built warship or large liner is still preserved and visited on the Clyde; that would certainly have happened in other countries. As far as possible, we should preserve our aerial interests, of which Concorde is a prize example.
It is good that the Parliament puts its weight behind this official request, which has been made not by a fly-by-night outfit but by the National Museums of Scotland. The request thoroughly deserves our support and I am happy to give my party's support to the motion.
It is a matter of some considerable pride that Concorde was made in these islands. Indeed, it reflects the heady days when co-operation across the channel was still possible. The "e" in Concorde came about as a result of an unusual alliance between Francophone and Anglophone interests—before that point was reached, the aircraft's name was spelt differently on either side of the channel.
BOAC, which was the first airline to put Concorde into service, booked the registration sequence BOAA to BOAG, thus ensuring that one of the Concordes had the registration BOAC—such was the pride that BOAC took in the aircraft.
The Museum of Flight at East Fortune is a cornucopia of aviation history. As a youngster yae high, I got the "Eagle".
Mr Stevenson is showing his age.
Some members are old enough to remember the "Eagle".
Each week, the "Eagle" had aviation break-down diagrams. I remember the Comet being tested to destruction in one of them.
Examples of our space industry are on show at East Fortune—I am thinking of Blue Streak and Black Knight. John Home Robertson referred to the Comet 4C. I am not sure whether I have flown in that aircraft, but I have certainly flown in one of the Comet aircraft.
I have two personal attachments to East Fortune and the first is as a private pilot. I should declare that my entry in the register of interests shows that I am a member of two flying clubs. I have flown into East Fortune on a number of occasions to visit the museum and hope that nothing prevents the runway being accessible for future visits.
It is worth noting that there are 100,000 private pilots in the United States, many of whom would be delighted to come to Scotland and to include a visit to the museum at East Fortune during their time here. They are precisely the kind of wealthy visitors that we could attract to the museum.
My main plea is that Concorde be put into hanger four when it comes to East Fortune, which I am sure it will with the support of the Scottish Parliament. My reason for saying that is that another important aircraft, which was donated by the Scottish airline Loganair, is in hanger four. It is a Beech 18 and it was designed in 1935. It took one particularly important flight, which departed Aberdeen for Stavangar at 14:35 on 4 August 1969. The flight number was LN2501 and the registration of the plane was golf, alpha, sierra, uniform, golf—see how boring flying people can be.
The important thing about the flight was that my wife and I were on the plane, it was the first time we had flown and we were flying off on our honeymoon.
Was it turbulent?
No, it was a piston engine—a Pratt and Whitney rotary engine, if John Home Robertson really wants to know.
The Scottish aviation industry is practically at an end. In April, I flew in a Jetstream 31, which is one of the last aircraft to be built at Prestwick. We are down to the last fragments of the Scottish aviation industry with the Montgomery gyrocopter continuing to be built in very small numbers in Ayrshire.
Flying is not only a pleasure thing for me; it has also been a business thing. I had a pal who was in an electronics company. He got up one morning, flew on a 757 to London, got on to Concorde, went to New York, met someone at the airport, showed him a piece of electronic equipment, signed a £12 million order, got back on to the same Concorde, returned to London and was back in Edinburgh for his tea. He was able to do that £12 million-worth of business because of the unique capabilities of Concorde.
We would be proud to have Concorde at East Fortune. For once, I am happy to support colleagues of other political viewpoints in this particular venture and I wish John Home Robertson well in it.
I congratulate John Home Robertson on securing the debate and am happy to add my support to the motion, along with, as I hear, 49 of my colleagues.
I will declare an interest. I am not a pilot, but I take my kids to the museum at East Fortune regularly. It is my favourite museum in the country. It is a fantastic place to be. It has wide open spaces where the kids can run around and it is a fitting place for Concorde to enjoy its retirement. I am happy to support the motion in that respect.
Other members have highlighted the connection that the aircraft has with Scotland. Should we be successful in attracting Concorde to the East Lothian site, it may also be a fitting tribute to invite another of our national treasures—Tony Benn, the remarkable former Labour Minister of Technology, who, along with Stewart Stevenson, deserves the accolade of being the pilot of much of the project. I am not sure that John Home Robertson would regard Tony Benn as the same national treasure that I regard him to be, but the marketing slogan could perhaps be, "Bring Concorde to East Fortune and you get Tony Benn thrown in for good measure." Tony Benn who, as Lord James Douglas-Hamilton probably knows, was the minister responsible for the Concorde project, has strong connections with Scotland: his mother was from Paisley and his father was an MP for Leith. His presence would be fitting if we were to bring Concorde to Scotland.
Bringing Concorde to Scotland is a superb idea for the Parliament to be associated with. I can only congratulate John Home Robertson on that. As an avid supporter of the Museum of Flight, I suggest that Mr Layden, the new general manager, consider a constructive idea that I offer for encouraging as many visitors as possible to the site at East Fortune, which is a fantastic place to enjoy a day. He should consider waiving the admission charges. The museum is free for kids, but I was there a couple of weeks ago and there are either admission charges for me alone or there are admission charges for adults. They are not huge, but waiving them would help accessibility for the whole country.
Given where East Fortune is, the minister should consider examining the bus service to the site from Dunbar and Haddington. There is a genuine problem. For those who do not have a car, getting to an airfield in the middle of East Lothian has its difficulties.
I am happy to support the bid. I hope that the minister conveys the suggestions that I have made in the spirit in which they were offered. I suggest that, if we are successful, the minister persuade the pilot—or maybe Stewart Stevenson—to land the plane at Edinburgh airport on its penultimate journey. We could invite nominations from the Parliament, or the Parliament could invite nominations, for people to take Concorde's last flight—to the East Lothian airfield.
John Home Robertson looks slightly amazed at the prospect of my speaking. I was not going to speak but, as is often the case, one gets involved in the subject. I warmly congratulate John Home Robertson on securing the debate. I have greatly enjoyed the speeches that we have heard already.
As Colin Fox suggested, there is huge interest in the project. The only time I have been on Concorde was when I was on the one that is at the museum at Duxford in England. I assure all members present that it is a hugely successful visitor attraction. People of all ages flock to see it. It is probably the most popular aircraft at Duxford. Something about flight and beating the law of gravity continues to fascinate young and old. I warmly endorse the sentiments that we have heard so far and wish John Home Robertson all good luck in securing Concorde for East Fortune.
The point that I want to deal with arises from what Donald Gorrie said. He made an interesting remark. He said that we are very bad at looking after and preserving our heritage. He mentioned warships on the Clyde. It is a fact that only one warship from the first world war is still afloat. That is HMS Caroline, which is in Belfast. It is a light cruiser from 1916. It is the only ship from that era that is left.
Much more could be done in areas such as my constituency. We have an airfield and a bombing range at Tain. We have Invergordon, which, after all, was the home of Beattie's battlecruisers in the first world war. When the RAF next decommissions a Tornado, why cannot it be restored to its 1941 or 1942 form with all its buttons and counters and returned to somewhere like Tain bombing range or even Tain aerodrome, with its old control tower that is still standing? Such planes are enormously interesting to people and, more important, they teach us history. After all, only a fool does not take regard of history, because it helps us to learn and prepare for a better future. A great deal could be done on the naval and aircraft fronts.
We should also remember that although an aircraft such as Concorde, or a Tornado, or even a first world war light cruiser, cost an unimaginable amount of money when they were built, they are worth practically nothing when they are scrapped. Very often, the blowtorch is taken to them and they are just chopped up. Instead of scrapping them, it would be so much easier to take them out and put them into areas of Scotland or England where they would prove to be significant visitor attractions and would help to teach our own very special history to generations to come.
I too support John Home Robertson's motion, which all parties in the chamber agree with. The proposal to bring Concorde to East Fortune is no flight of fancy. It is eminently reasonable; it will bring real economic benefits to East Lothian and be a major boost to tourism in the region.
Concorde's withdrawal from service represents the end of an era. Although the aircraft was a triumph of engineering, the financial and environmental costs were very high. As members have pointed out, the name was chosen to reflect a spirit of co-operation and sharing; however, even its spelling was a matter of international argument.
Concorde's history extends back to the time of unbounded confidence in the white heat of technology but of limited awareness of that technology's repercussions. It is appropriate that the Museum of Flight should be the resting place for one of those craft. Our National Museums of Scotland are a byword for excellence and should house one of the world's most famous and prestigious aircraft as part of our industrial and aeronautical heritage. Concorde will be a major must-see attraction for one of the few major national collections sited outwith Edinburgh.
Concorde travel was the ultimate symbol of travel for the rich. It meant speed and power at the expense of daily noise interference to residents below and excessive climate-damaging emissions of pollutants. However, everyone can admire the static Concorde for its grace and style, which is why I completely support the motion.
I had not intended to speak in the debate, but I just want to make a couple of points. First, like other speakers, I congratulate John Home Robertson on bringing the motion before the Scottish Parliament and wish to put on record my belief that the National Museums of Scotland and the organisation's outlying museums are a tremendously valuable resource to the people of Scotland. Like other colleagues, I visited the Museum of Flight and very much enjoyed myself there.
I will raise a couple of issues, the first of which is the matter of transport to the Museum of Flight. If the museum were fortunate enough to get Concorde, that would increase visitor numbers. However, I agree that we need to examine major transport issues such as how people can reach the museum. Indeed, similar issues face people who want to visit the Scottish Mining Museum at Newtongrange in my constituency.
In that context, I draw attention to a project in my Midlothian constituency in which the council uses the money for school culture co-ordinators to take all Midlothian schoolchildren to the Scottish Mining Museum. Such an initiative might make it possible to increase visitor numbers to the Museum of Flight if Concorde were to go there and would be a way of getting all schoolchildren to visit the museum.
I support the proposal, which would greatly increase visitor numbers and put the museum more on the map than it already is, and I urge both John Home Robertson and the minister to think of innovative ways of increasing visitor numbers at the Museum of Flight and the Scottish Mining Museum.
I congratulate John Home Robertson on securing the debate on his motion. As I looked at some of the names invoked in support of the Concorde bid, I noted that one requires a triple-barrelled name to be justifiable. James Douglas-Hamilton, my good friend John Home Robertson and Anthony Wedgwood Benn comprise an interesting trinity of triple-barrelled names. I do not know whether that says something about the elegance and income levels of those who are pilots, but Stewart Stevenson's contribution to the debate made me realise that this evening is the first time that I have ever seen a poor pilot.
Although it is expensive to learn to be a pilot, most private pilots spend less on their hobby than it would cost to buy a single packet of cigarettes per day.
The recommended policy of the SNP might well be for everyone to have access to being a pilot for the week. I thank Stewart Stevenson for his contribution.
This has been a broad and positive debate about what we can do in Scotland to maximise the opportunity to utilise something that is an important part of our past. That is true irrespective of our different interpretations of Concorde's significance in terms of the society and economy of the late 1960s and early 1970s. For some much younger citizens, understanding of the project comes from Airfix models rather than from being on Concorde itself, while others look back to a golden age when British-French relationships were reasonable enough to justify partnership.
We are delighted to try to help in the process of bringing Concorde to East Fortune. An MSP and a constituent are working together in partnership to identify ways of acquiring Concorde for the museum. I was interested in the suggestion made by three or four members that the aircraft should be used as an opportunity to explain our history in developing aviation technology. As Rhona Brankin and other members said, we should ensure that future generations have access to that history. I will certainly take back to the Executive the comments that have been made about partnerships at local authority level to ensure that young people have access to the museum.
It is part of our broader strategy for the National Museums of Scotland to ensure that we have a range and quality of museum provision that will reflect not just our ancient past but also our modern and immediate past. As each decade goes by, the more recent past becomes an important element of our history and who we are as a nation. For the likes of Benn in the 1960s, Concorde was one of the big symbols of Britishness, as much as it was a symbol of technological progress, and I am sure that there will be many other and different interpretations.
Lord Wilson of Tillyorn, chair of the National Museums of Scotland, wrote to the chief executive of BA on 18 April expressing an interest in acquiring one of the Concordes. Scottish ministers followed that up with a letter to BA to ensure that National Museums of Scotland has our support. BA is now determining the bid and considering all the other issues that have been identified and the other parties who may be interested. Interest in the acquisition of the Concordes that are no longer in use has been shown not only in the UK but also internationally.
We recognise that discussions have taken place between National Museums of Scotland and British Airways, and BA has replied saying that there has been a large amount of interest in acquiring the aircraft and that it hopes to make a decision soon. National Museums of Scotland has also had subsequent discussions with BA about the possibility of a permanent Concorde exhibition at the museum, including the practicalities of landing a plane at East Fortune. We expect the chief pilot to be in touch within the next few weeks, but we also expect that BA is making similar contacts with all applicants. If we need to demonstrate that we have pilot experience in the Scottish Parliament, I shall volunteer Stewart Stevenson for that journey and hope that it is a safe one for Scotland's sake.
Think about my constituents.
At least three members have touched on the point that Colin Fox made about the welcome nature of the museum itself and how we can develop that with National Museums of Scotland over the next five-year investment plan.
The investment plan is to find a way of turning the Museum of Flight into a world-class museum. Other tourist attractions are central to that task. Concorde exemplifies the kind of product that has been created in Scotland and illustrates the contribution that our engineers and designers have made to such developments. We have supported the appointment of a new general manager at East Fortune to assist with the development of the museum.
A number of members raised the issue of broader educational support. Through NMS, we are examining ways of improving access for educational groups. In partnership, we can also pursue the issue of transport access. I encourage members to write directly to the Minister for Transport and to me to facilitate dialogue on that matter.
As Colin Fox indicated, the Museum of Flight has a charging policy. Some time ago we removed charges from our national museums. Over the next year or so, a review of charges will take place as part of our museum strategy. Although adults pay charges, there are concessions for some adults to minimise the impact of charging. I stress that all the money raised from charging is invested in the development of the museum. It is not easy for the museum to move away from charges, because they generate significant income. However, over the next few years there will be opportunities for some debate on charging.
It has been extremely valuable to hear members speak not just of the importance of having historic artefacts at the museum but of its significance for the economic regeneration of parts of East Lothian and of the wider Lothian and Scottish economy. One of the key challenges that I face is to maximise the opportunity that has been created by growth in world tourism. We in Scotland must seek a share of that growth. One of our key ambitions is to grow our share of the world tourism market, which is increasing by 4 per cent annually, to ensure that Scotland and Scots benefit from it. A key element in any tourism strategy is the quality of attractions that exist and that we can develop further. We are talking not about investing in a brand-new development in East Lothian, but about enhancing what already exists there. If we are able to secure Concorde from BA, it will make an incredible contribution to the future development of East Lothian.
We acknowledge the contributions that many folk have made and the use of the site for other purposes in Scottish history. We also recognise that we must make a coherent application to British Airways. We hope that before the company makes a final decision, it will take into account the fact that we can put together a broader strategy that enhances Concorde. We are not talking simply about providing a final location for Concorde when it is no longer in operation, but about using Concorde to amplify other debates about the importance of design and technology to communities and economic development.
I hope that we can progress this issue effectively for Scotland and nose ahead of our competitors. Hopefully, the Executive can make a genuine difference. If members would like to inform me of insights that could usefully be passed on to British Airways, I will be happy to assist. I commend John Home Robertson and all the other members who have spoken this evening about an aircraft that is worth acquiring for Scotland and our museum collections.
Meeting closed at 17:43.