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Chamber and committees

Plenary, 17 Jun 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, June 17, 2004


Contents


First Minister's Question Time


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-922)

The agenda for next week's meeting of the Cabinet will, as usual, be agreed tomorrow.

Does the First Minister have any explanation for a justice system that imprisons the innocent, releases the guilty and cannot submit basic court papers on time?

The First Minister:

What we have in this country is a justice system in which many of the practices are out of date and many of the agencies, departments and organisations responsible do not co-ordinate their activities well enough. The laws and provisions that govern the system require modernisation. Until recently, our justice system far too often failed the victims of crime and those who are witnesses to crime. That is precisely why during the years of this devolved Government we have not only systematically introduced comprehensive witness support services and comprehensive support for the victims of crime, but sought to modernise our laws and to ensure that the system itself is modernised, freeing up the time of those who serve our communities in the police force so that they can do the job that they signed up to do. At the same time, we are making sure that our prisons, sheriffs and other officials in the legal system co-operate more successfully and deliver a more comprehensive and successful justice service.

Mr Swinney:

I remind the First Minister of some of the details. James McCormick, a convicted murderer, is in custody today only because he gave himself up after being released by Reliance. Angela Kennedy was freed by a Scottish court and put back into prison by Reliance. The Minister for Justice tells Parliament that the Executive intends to appeal against a slopping out judgment, but fails to get the court papers in on time. Murderers walk free, innocent people are locked up and millions of pounds of public money are put in jeopardy.

The First Minister said that there are problems with the justice system and that there is a lack of co-operation and a need for modernisation. What has the Labour Government been using the past seven years for if that is the current situation in the prison service?

The First Minister:

What we have been doing, particularly during the past five years of devolved government, is securing the lowest recorded level of crime in Scotland for 25 years and the highest clear-up rate that Scotland has ever known, tackling crime on the streets of Scotland and ensuring that Scotland has a justice system that can deliver for the victims of crime and that those responsible are not only locked up but properly rehabilitated so that they do not offend again. That job is not yet done. We have a long way to go, but there is no doubt in my mind that the delivery of witness and victim services, co-operation and co-ordination among the different elements of the system, improvements in the operation of our courts, new laws that back the victims rather than the perpetrators of crime and all the other measures that we are introducing—including the contracting out of prison escort services to get police officers back on the beat in Scotland—are the right measures. They are making a difference and will continue to do so.

Mr Swinney:

The problem with the First Minister's answer on the crime rate is that just as fast as the police are catching the criminals, Reliance is letting them back out on to the streets of Scotland. I do not know how the First Minister can have any confidence in his long litany.

In the past few months, the First Minister has set up inquiries into why the Reliance contract was signed, why murderers have been released, why individuals have been wrongly imprisoned and why court papers cannot be submitted on time, as well as inquiries into the handling of outstanding warrants. Has he done too much inquiring and not enough delivering on the promises that he made to the people of Scotland to deliver safer streets and safer communities?

The First Minister:

One of the great benefits of the new policy of contracting out escort services is that we are able to find out what the problems that Mr Swinney mentions are and so are able to investigate them.

If Mr Swinney talks to anyone who works in the system—police officers, court officials, lawyers, prison officers and anyone else who has had to deal with the system during the past four years—he will get a list of incidents in which not only have people been released but all kinds of errors have been made from the top to the bottom of the system. The system needs a comprehensive overhaul and that is what is going on in Scotland today, not just through the contracting out of those prisoner escort services, which is putting police officers back on the beat in Scotland, but through ensuring that our courts operate properly and on time, that we are not wasting the time of witnesses, victims or police officers and that we deliver witness and victim services in each of our courts. Most important of all, the range of policies that we are pursuing is delivering the lowest crime rate in Scotland for a very long time and probably the highest crime clear-up rate that Scotland has ever known.


Prime Minister (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he next plans to meet the Prime Minister and what issues he intends to raise. (S2F-928)

I have no plans to meet the Prime Minister in the near future.

David McLetchie:

Perhaps when the First Minister and the Prime Minister next meet, the Prime Minister will remind the First Minister of something that he said not long ago in relation to our health service. The Prime Minister said:

"Competitive pressures and incentives drive up quality, efficiency and responsiveness in the public sector. Choice leads to higher standards. The over-riding principle is clear. We should give poorer patients … the same range of choices the rich have always enjoyed."

Does the First Minister agree with the Prime Minister that patient choice should be at the heart of any reform strategy for the health service?

The First Minister:

A good-quality health service that delivers for patients should be at the heart of the overall management and policies that govern the health service. I strongly believe that patient choice is an important element in delivering that quality of service.

David McLetchie:

The First Minister's claim that patient choice is important is about as credible as Frank McAveety's testimony.

The record of the First Minister and the Minister for Health and Community Care shows that they could not care less about patient choice. The money that goes into the health service reflects the decisions of bureaucrats, rather than the choices of patients, and accountability within the system is to the Minister for Health and Community Care, rather than to the patient. Malcolm Chisholm's legacy is a reduction in the options and services that are available to patients. Throughout Scotland, acute services and maternity units are threatened with closure. Acute services are threatened at Stobhill hospital and the Victoria infirmary in Glasgow, the Queen Margaret hospital in Dunfermline and the Belford hospital in Fort William. Maternity units are threatened in Caithness, Perth, Greenock, Melrose and Stirling—the list seems endless. Is not it the case that Chisholm's choice is in reality Hobson's choice—that is, no choice—for the patients of Scotland?

The First Minister:

That is untrue. The Minister for Health and Community Care has introduced more reforms to bring about more patient choice than any health minister in my lifetime has done. He has introduced choices in doctors' surgeries, where patients can now access information about where individual waiting times are lowest or highest, so that they can make choices in consultation with their general practitioners about where they are to be referred. Malcolm Chisholm has made more use of the private sector in Scotland to ensure that people are treated more quickly and effectively and do not simply have to wait for capacity in the public sector to expand. During the past two years in particular, there have been reforms in a number of other areas of which Malcolm Chisholm can be very proud and which are exactly in line with the need to deliver a high-quality health service in Scotland that has the interests of patients at its core.

At a time when the Tories are talking again about perhaps being back in government, Mr McLetchie has a brass neck to talk about the health service and to compare our record with the 18 years of Conservative rule in Scotland and throughout the United Kingdom, when the health service was run down and lacked capital investment, the numbers of doctors, nurses and other medical staff were run down and the introduction of the internal market meant that we witnessed the most bureaucratic system ever to be introduced in the health service in this country.

Perhaps the First Minister will briefly tell us why the Queen Margaret hospital, which was built and opened under the Conservatives, as were so many other hospitals, is threatened with closure by the Executive.

The First Minister:

As Mr McLetchie knows, that decision has not been confirmed.

It is important to remind Mr McLetchie and the Tories of the record hospital-building programme that has taken place since 1997. The new hospitals in the Western Isles, Lanarkshire, Aberdeen and elsewhere, which are delivering in our national health service, would not have been built under the Tories.

There are no urgent and important back-bench questions, so we go straight to question 3.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what the main priorities are for discussion at the next meeting of the Scottish Executive's Cabinet. (S2F-940)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

One of the priorities at the next Cabinet meeting will be a discussion on antisocial behaviour. We will discuss protecting public safety by putting more police on the streets, getting the courts back on the side of the victim, dispersing groups of intimidating and disruptive teenagers and keeping undesirable characters off airline flights.

Tommy Sheridan:

I hope that in the discussion about undesirable characters on airline flights, the First Minister will ensure that their dress mode is appropriate.

One issue that the First Minister unfortunately missed out of the list of priorities is the health service. Does he accept that, even after the extra £70 million that has been announced this week, 12 of the 15 health boards in Scotland are running with serious deficits and have proposed serious cuts in services? Three health boards, including Greater Glasgow NHS Board and Argyll and Clyde NHS Board, are facing deficits of more than £100 million. Does he agree that it is time for a crisis summit involving health unions, health professionals and user groups to save the health service, which is in a critical condition under his Executive?

The First Minister:

The health service in Scotland is not in a critical condition, although I agree that there is genuine concern about deficits in health boards. In the areas in which the management has kept control over budgets over the years, the managers deserve praise. I believe strongly that the managers of the boards in other areas must get their budgets under control. I will defend in the chamber and elsewhere the policies of the past few years, which have led to the pay increases and new contracts that are delivering a fairer deal for those who work in the health service. The better, more flexible contracts will also deliver more for patients. Patients come first, but staff must be properly rewarded and given decent contracts that make demands of them as well as give them rights. Throughout the health service, we need more staff in every area to ensure that our health service capacity is built up in the way that everybody wants.

Tommy Sheridan:

The people of Scotland support 100 per cent the proper rewarding of staff in hospitals and throughout the health service. The question is the funding crisis, which means that the city of Glasgow is facing the loss of Stobhill hospital, the Queen Mother's hospital, the Victoria infirmary and in-patient beds at the homeopathic hospital. At the Vale of Leven hospital in Dunbartonshire and in Wick, Jedburgh and Coldstream, serious cuts in services are being proposed. Is the First Minister not being complacent by not even considering the health service as one of his priorities for discussion? Is not it about time that he stopped doing too little well and started to use his authority and funding to address the critical condition of the health service?

The First Minister:

This week, a debate has taken place publicly about the fact that, to pay for the new contracts and the increased wages and salaries—which are deserved and right, not just for recruitment purposes but for fairness in our national health service—there may be a slow-down in the introduction of new services. I hope that Mr Sheridan welcomes rather than condemns the inference that new services are being introduced into the health service. It is important that we do not create an atmosphere that might lead to a backlash against staff in the health service being paid properly and having contracts that deliver for patients. His suggestion of holding a crisis summit because people in the health service are being paid properly and have new contracts is a daft idea.

We need serious solutions to serious problems. There are serious problems in the health service in Scotland, particularly with delivering rural health services. In this modern, technological age, we must ensure that we find solutions that are right and flexible, partly through the new contracts, partly through better management and partly through a more flexible approach from staff in order to continue to deliver services in rural Scotland.


ScotRail

To ask the First Minister how the new ScotRail franchise will help develop an integrated transport system. (S2F-931)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

The new ScotRail franchise contains conditions to ensure improvement in rail services for the travelling public. It is designed to reduce overcrowding and improve reliability and punctuality, which will make a direct contribution to the successful integration of the transport system.

Richard Baker:

FirstGroup's success in bidding for the ScotRail franchise is welcomed in the north-east as a huge achievement for an Aberdeen-based company. However, does the First Minister agree that what would be most welcome throughout Scotland is a new franchise that delivers a public transport system that is better integrated through routes and schedules and, as a result, is more efficient for passengers?

The First Minister:

The integration of the service is important, regardless of which company has won the franchise or the final details. The integration of services across all transport modes is a key objective of the Executive's transport policy. It has driven the decisions that we have taken in relation to not just the ScotRail franchise contract but the road and rail improvements that Scotland is starting to experience after many years of underinvestment.

Mr Kenny MacAskill (Lothians) (SNP):

Does the First Minister accept that the award of the franchise to FirstGroup creates a monopoly situation in much of the country? Given that, quite properly, we regulate the rail industry to protect the public interest, is it not time to reregulate the bus industry to protect commuters and travellers?

The First Minister:

It is right that, prior to reconsidering that option, we see what progress is made with the legislation passed by the Parliament for quality contracts for local bus services. There has been little progress on that at a local level over recent years, and there should be more. We hope that our new transport agency will assist with that, as noted in the white paper published this week by Nicol Stephen. Integration across services is vital and means much more than simply one company working well internally or companies working well with one another.

What is the current status of the Scottish Executive's discussions with Her Majesty's Government about the United Kingdom rail review? How will the outcome of that review impact on the new ScotRail franchise?

The First Minister:

The Executive is involved in discussions with the UK Government about the rail review. The UK Government indicated at an early stage that it was prepared to discuss the role of the devolved Administrations in Scotland and Wales in relation to the future management of the railways throughout the United Kingdom. We believe strongly that there is a need for clear integration of rail services north and south of the border and throughout the United Kingdom, and we have entered those discussions very positively. We expect to reach some conclusions over the coming weeks. I believe that the target at Westminster is for it to try to conclude its view on those matters before its summer recess. When we have reached a conclusion, we will inform Parliament in the normal way.

Paul Martin (Glasgow Springburn) (Lab):

Does the First Minister agree that the rail franchise should benefit not only passengers but Scottish companies? I bring to his attention the Alstom Railcare group in my constituency, which can provide its services to FirstGroup. Will he ensure that FirstGroup gives Scottish companies such as Alstom every consideration?

The First Minister:

There will be all kinds of rules and regulations about that, not least the European Union legislation governing procurement. It is important that companies that operate with public money in Scotland should be aware of the need to make a contribution inside Scotland. I am sure that those who hope to have the franchise for rail services in Scotland will have taken note of Mr Martin's comments.

Iain Smith (North East Fife) (LD):

As a result of FirstGroup being the preferred bidder for the franchise, when the Scottish Executive considers the integration of public transport will it have discussions with the Competition Commission to ensure that we do not get the perverse situation that occurred in relation to FirstGroup's bus operations in which, following requirements placed on the company by the Competition Commission, it became more difficult for FirstGroup to provide integrated services?

The First Minister:

That is a good point. I hope that, in its final considerations, the Competition Commission will take account of factors other than the fact that FirstGroup could now have responsibility for so many bus and rail services throughout Scotland. I am not sure whether it is taking those factors into account already, but we can check that and let Mr Smith know.

Now that the franchise has been announced, will the Executive be in a position, before the recess, to introduce integrated transport to the Borders by supporting the Waverley line?

The Executive is considering the value-for-money case in relation to that project. We will make an announcement to Parliament in the normal way when we have carried out that analysis.


G8 Summit

To ask the First Minister what discussions the Scottish Executive has had with Her Majesty's Government in respect of the G8 summit at Gleneagles in 2005. (S2F-924)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

We have had good discussions and I am delighted that the United Kingdom Government has decided that the G8 summit should be held at Gleneagles in 2005. It will be a privilege for the people of Scotland to host the world leaders. We have worked closely with the UK Government on plans for the summit and we will continue to do so during the next year. I am confident that the event will be a great success and that it will bring lasting benefits for the people of Scotland. To ensure that we maximise those benefits—particularly the benefits of the publicity that Scotland will receive before, during and after the summit—we have established a special Cabinet sub-committee to plan and execute our promotional and educational plans. I, for one, am very pleased that the top table is coming to Scotland.

Murdo Fraser:

I warmly thank the First Minister for his response. I am pleased that he is joining local representative organisations such as the council, the local chamber of commerce and the local tourist board in welcoming the summit to Gleneagles, with its potential spin-off benefits for the local economy. I am sure that he is looking forward to welcoming world leaders to Gleneagles, including, of course, our Prime Minister, Michael Howard.

However, the First Minister should be aware that there are local concerns about the disruption that will be caused by the summit and the additional pressure that will be put on infrastructure in the area. The Executive has just published its report on the A9 junctions that serve communities such as Blackford and Auchterarder, which sets out a case for upgrading some of those junctions. In light of the summit and the extra traffic, will he examine the junctions report closely with a view to the early implementation of some of its recommendations so that we minimise local disruption and the risk of traffic accidents caused by extra congestion on the roads at the time of the summit?

The First Minister:

I suspect that Murdo Fraser had a little bit too much to drink last night at the annual journalists dinner, but I welcome his optimistic approach to the world. I hope that he does not feel too much disappointment when he is let down this time next year. I am sure that the contest that will take place in Perth between the nationalists and the Tories at the general election next year will be suitably enhanced by the nationalists' complete opposition to the world leaders' visit to Scotland. Apparently, the nationalists do not want us to be on the world stage at all. That said, we will consider all matters in relation to preparations for the summit very seriously indeed and we will take the necessary decisions to make sure that the summit is a success.

Roseanna Cunningham (Perth) (SNP):

The First Minister referred to my concerns, and the concerns that I reflect from my constituents, about the forthcoming G8 summit in my constituency. He needs to be aware that although there is benefit to be gained from such events, there is nevertheless a serious downside, given the nature of the event and the disruption that it is likely to cause. What arrangements will be made to compensate my constituents—the farmers, the business people and the residents of the wide area that will be affected—who are seriously inconvenienced or, worse, whose property and/or livelihood is damaged by the event next July?

The First Minister:

All those matters are already under consideration. Consultation panels have been set up and organised and there are discussions involving not only local groups but the local authority and Tayside police. All those people have warmly welcomed the announcement of the summit and want to be part of making it a success not just for Scotland but for Perthshire. I hope that the local MSP will seriously reconsider the stance that she has taken and that she will embrace this fantastic opportunity. It is estimated that the 2002 summit in Canada resulted in an input into the local community of about $250 million. That is the prize that is available to Scotland and Perthshire. I hope that the local MSP will reconsider her position and join us in welcoming the summit.

Mike Watson (Glasgow Cathcart) (Lab):

Does the First Minister agree that it will be Prime Minister Blair, of course, who welcomes next year the other world leaders, including President Kerry, and that the benefits that will flow will include the further opportunity for Scotland to be portrayed throughout the world as a destination for major events? Will the First Minister ensure that EventScotland—the organisation that in its first year has attracted the MTV Europe music awards and the rugby under-21 world championship to Scotland and the mountain bike world cup to Lochaber—has sufficient resources to build on its work and to benefit fully from the G8 summit next year?

The First Minister:

We will involve EventScotland, VisitScotland and all the other agencies that will be important. We will also try to ensure that youngsters in Scotland benefit from the experience, too.

The Cabinet sub-committee that we have established to co-ordinate our efforts on the summit will be chaired by our minister with responsibility for external relations, Andy Kerr, and will involve our enterprise ministers, the Minister for Tourism, Culture and Sport and, given the interest in public safety, which is important, the Minister for Justice. The sub-committee will also involve education ministers, because we want to ensure that schools throughout Scotland are engaged in the work of the summit well in advance, especially given the summit's subject matter, which will be third-world development and support for Africa. Scotland as a country and a people has had a proud record on that subject for many years. Next year, we can help to provide a fresh impetus for international efforts on that.


Marches

To ask the First Minister whether the Scottish Executive will take steps to address the impact of marches on local people, the police and community relations. (S2F-942)

The First Minister (Mr Jack McConnell):

We hope to appoint before the end of this month an independent expert to review the licensing system for marches and parades. That review will explore with councils and other interested organisations the frequency, number and routes of marches. It will also consider the rules that govern decisions on marches and parades and how local communities' needs can be considered as part of a reasonable and fair system.

Donald Gorrie:

That is a welcome response. Will the First Minister confirm that the initial approach will be to secure local voluntary agreements to reduce the number of marches and to make their routes and timings more acceptable to communities? Will he confirm that decisions will not be imposed from the centre and that local agreement will be sought, so that communities can live in peace better than they do at the moment?

The First Minister:

I believe strongly that the best decisions will be made locally by local authorities and local police forces through engaging communities. I do not want Scotland to have what has been described elsewhere this week as a parades tsar or somebody who would make such decisions nationally.

We need an independent person to consider the current rules and regulations, but the objective of doing that will be to ensure that local rules and regulations that govern decisions about marches and parades—particularly those of a sectarian nature—are designed more effectively to regulate the number and routes of marches and especially to encourage an atmosphere in which voluntary agreements can reduce the number of marches locally without animosity and without increasing community tension. That should be our objective and that is the course on which we will set ourselves later this month. I hope that we can have cross-party agreement to do something about the issue after many years during which most of us have wanted to do something. It is now time to act.

The Presiding Officer:

That concludes questions to the First Minister. I remind members that the First Minister and I will now present in the chamber the prizes to the winners in the national youth parliament competition. Members who are staying for that should remain in their seats, please, while the students come down.

Meeting suspended until 13:30.

On resuming—