Business Motion
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I want to raise my point of order specifically before consideration of the next item, which is a business motion. Before members reach a decision on how they are going to vote on what is likely to be a contested business motion, it is important to ask some questions of you about the practical consequences of the decision that is about to be made, especially concerning rules 15.1 and 15.2 of our standing orders.
The Parliament is required to meet in public for our considerations in the chamber and it is required that members of the public be admitted to the public gallery during any meeting of the Parliament. We are all well aware of the forthcoming strike action that is scheduled to take place on 30 November and of the reasons for it. There has been an overwhelming response to the call for that action from Unison, from the Educational Institute of Scotland, of which more than 82 per cent—
I think that you have made your point of order, Mr Harvie. I will respond to it.
Presiding Officer—
You have made your point of order. Please sit down, Mr Harvie.
Further to that point of order—
I will answer your point of order. If you have further points of order, you can ask. I assure—
I—
Please sit down, Mr Harvie.
Am I not allowed to raise a point of order?
Please sit down, Mr Harvie, while I respond to your point of order.
I have three minutes in which to make my point of order.
You asked me specific questions; please allow me to answer. If you wish to make a further point of order, I will allow you to do so, but please allow me to answer the questions that you have asked.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer.
If Mr Henry will allow me to answer—
Presiding Officer—
Mr Henry, please sit down.
On a separate point of order, Presiding Officer.
Mr Findlay, please sit down.
This is wrong.
In response to the specific point of order that was raised by Patrick Harvie, who asked whether there will, in the light of the planned industrial action, be access for the public on 30 November, I say to him that I am grateful for notification of that point of order and I assure all members that Parliament will be open for business on 30 November and that access for the public will not be adversely affected by the planned industrial action. There are no plans to bring in external staff to support the business of Parliament on that day.
Mr Harvie, do you have a further point of order that you wish to make in the light of my response?
Presiding Officer, I would have been grateful to have been allowed three minutes, which is, I believe, what members are entitled to in raising a point of order, under the rules of the chamber. You have anticipated my question regarding external workers.
Will any Scottish Parliamentary Corporate Body staff be expected to cross picket lines during what is expected to be the largest co-ordinated industrial action for generations? It is a matter that affects anyone who believes that the Parliament’s response should be to direct our attention to the actions of the United Kingdom Government. It is important to have that on the record before members make a decision about the business motion that will schedule business for 30 November, which will put pressure on members of trade unions to cross picket lines.
In response to Mr Harvie’s point about SPCB staff, I assure members that no member of SPCB staff will be given any direction to cross picket lines.
On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I do not seek to respond to the detailed response that you have given to Patrick Harvie, for which I thank you. However, I ask you to clarify the rules of Parliament, according to the standing orders, when a member raises a point of order. Does that member have a specific amount of time in which to raise the point of order? If the member chooses to use that time to make the point of order, will they be allowed to do so?
You are correct that a point of order can last for three minutes. I considered that Mr Harvie had made his point of order and, according to standing orders, all members in the chamber speak at my pleasure.
On a further point of order, Presiding Officer. That is an interesting clarification. Will you enlighten the Parliament on whether the interpretation of that standing order will mean that, in the future, you will decide when a member is finished, and that a member will no longer be entitled to assume that they have the allocated time?
Mr Henry will know that I always seek to protect the Parliament’s time.
Now is consideration of business motion S4M-01342, in the name of Bruce Crawford, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out a business programme. I ask any member who wishes to speak against the motion to press their request-to-speak button now.
First, I ask Bruce Crawford to move the motion.
Motion moved,
That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—
Wednesday 23 November 2011
2.30 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Debate: Carers Strategy
followed by Business Motion
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 24 November 2011
9.15 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Debate: Maritime Safety and Coastguards
11.40 am General Question Time
12.00 pm First Minister’s Question Time
12.30 pm Members’ Business
2.15 pm Themed Question Time
Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy
2.55 pm Scottish Government Debate: Scotland’s Contribution to UN Climate Summit
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 30 November 2011
2.30 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Business
followed by Business Motion
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 1 December 2011
9.15 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Business
11.40 am General Question Time
12.00 pm First Minister’s Question Time
2.15 pm Themed Question Time
Infrastructure and Capital Investment;
Culture and External Affairs
2.55 pm Scottish Government Business
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business—[Bruce Crawford.]
I have received two requests to speak. Standing orders state that there can be only one speaker for and one speaker against a business motion. In accordance with standing order rule 8.11.3, each speaker is permitted to speak for a maximum of five minutes.
17:06
On behalf of the Scottish Labour Party, I oppose the business motion in the name of the Scottish Government, and I do so in respect of the business that is being proposed for 30 November.
Members will, of course, be aware of the action that is proposed for that day. They should be aware that the planned day of action has been supported by trade unions throughout the country. The action will be on a scale that has never been seen in the history of this Parliament.
Nearly 3 million public sector workers across 20 trade unions will exercise their right to withhold their labour and to demonstrate against the injustices that are being brought against them, their families, their workmates and their communities. It is unacceptable that those public service workers are being asked to pay the price for a crisis that is not of their making. Instead of taxing the bankers, the United Kingdom Government is taking the decision to attack the hard-earned conditions of workers such as cleaners, teachers, nurses and many more people. Women workers, who are so often the poorest paid and in the most vulnerable jobs, will bear the worst of the pain across the UK.
Labour members believe that now is the time for us to take action in support of Scottish workers. The UK Government has had ample time to negotiate a meaningful settlement. It has chosen not to do so, and the labour movement now steps forward to take action for the rights of working people throughout Scotland. The Scottish Labour Party makes no apologies for standing shoulder to shoulder with workers across Scotland.
We continue to hope that the dispute can be resolved. The SNP Government has claimed that it has the role of bystander in the dispute, despite the fact that it has chosen to impose detrimental changes to local government pensions, which are entirely within its control. [Interruption.]
Would Mr Martin please advise Parliament how the Scottish Government is applying changes to the local government pension scheme, given that I made it clear in the spending review statement that we would not do to local government what the UK Government has done to us?
I am told that many SNP members are trade union members. Perhaps Mr Swinney is in that category. I know—[Interruption.]
Order.
I know that we already have the support of the Green party, but on behalf of the Scottish Labour Party I ask all trade unionists in the Parliament to join the labour movement on this day of action, to show their solidarity with and to stand up for the working people of Scotland by opposing the Government’s business motion.
17:11
First, I make it clear that this Government fully respects the rights of employees who might choose to withdraw their labour on the day of action that is planned for 30 November. I also make it clear that the Scottish Government is committed to public sector pensions that are affordable, sustainable and fair.
We think that it is wrong to increase public sector workers’ contributions to pension schemes at this time and in the way that it is being done. It is a naked cash grab to reduce the deficit and will do nothing to address the long-term sustainability of pensions. We have made our principled position of opposition to the UK Government policy abundantly clear.
We recognise that this is an extremely challenging time for public sector workers—a time of pay freezes, significant increases in national insurance contributions, higher VAT and rising inflation and fuel costs. We have sympathy with the substance of the concerns of the public sector workers and join with them in urging the UK Government to think again.
The UK Government’s handling of the situation has been misguided: it has been no way to run any kind of process, never mind one that will affect the livelihoods of millions of people. In contrast, the Scottish Government will continue to engage in full and extensive dialogue with trade unions and employers’ representatives on the future of pensions provision.
As members are only too aware, the United Kingdom Government has made it crystal clear that if the Scottish Government does not implement the increase in pension contributions, it will reduce the amount of money in the Scottish budget by more than £100 million in 2012-13 alone. I say to Mr Martin that that is exactly the point that Mr Swinney was making. We did not pass that on to local government as Mr Martin has accused us of doing; it is interesting that he gave no response to Mr Swinney’s point.
We all know that the UK issue will have a knock-on effect on Scottish public services. The Scottish Government has urged—and continues to urge—the UK Government to reconsider its position. That is why, as recently as 4 November, John Swinney again wrote to Danny Alexander on the matter.
All of us who were afforded the privilege of being elected to the national Parliament of Scotland have a responsibility to speak up on behalf of the people of Scotland about the issues that matter to them. That is why the Scottish Government will recommend to the Parliamentary Bureau that on 30 November we have a full plenary debate in Government time on the UK’s misguided handling of public sector pensions. Debating public sector pensions in this Parliament on 30 November will provide the perfect opportunity to shine a light on the failings on the Conservative-Liberal Democrat UK Government in that regard.
The purpose of this Parliament is to provide the forum and the focus for debate on issues that matter to the people of Scotland. It is clear that the UK Government does not speak for Scotland on this matter, so it is therefore even more important that the Parliament speaks for Scotland on 30 November.
Finally, I repeat that we are afforded the privilege of being elected to the Parliament to represent the people of Scotland: that is exactly what we should be doing. It is our responsibility—nay, it is our duty—to be in Parliament on 30 November to debate issues of such significance and importance to the people of Scotland.
The business motion that I moved is in the name of the Parliamentary Bureau.
The question is, that motion S4M-01342, in the name of Bruce Crawford, be agreed to. Are we agreed?
Members: No.
There will be a division.
For
Adam, Brian (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Allan, Dr Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Biagi, Marco (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Brodie, Chic (South Scotland) (SNP)
Brown, Gavin (Lothian) (Con)
Brown, Keith (Clackmannanshire and Dunblane) (SNP)
Burgess, Margaret (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Campbell, Aileen (Clydesdale) (SNP)
Campbell, Roderick (North East Fife) (SNP)
Carlaw, Jackson (West Scotland) (Con)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Crawford, Bruce (Stirling) (SNP)
Cunningham, Roseanna (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
Davidson, Ruth (Glasgow) (Con)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Nigel (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow) (SNP)
Dornan, James (Glasgow Cathcart) (SNP)
Eadie, Jim (Edinburgh Southern) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Mid Scotland and Fife) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fabiani, Linda (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Fergusson, Alex (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Finnie, John (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gibson, Rob (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Goldie, Annabel (West Scotland) (Con)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Hume, Jim (South Scotland) (LD)
Hyslop, Fiona (Linlithgow) (SNP)
Ingram, Adam (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Johnstone, Alex (North East Scotland) (Con)
Keir, Colin (Edinburgh Western) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lamont, John (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
Lyle, Richard (Central Scotland) (SNP)
MacAskill, Kenny (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
MacDonald, Angus (Falkirk East) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
Mackay, Derek (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Mackenzie, Mike (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
Maxwell, Stewart (West Scotland) (SNP)
McAlpine, Joan (South Scotland) (SNP)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
McDonald, Mark (North East Scotland) (SNP)
McGrigor, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
McInnes, Alison (North East Scotland) (LD)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLeod, Aileen (South Scotland) (SNP)
McLeod, Fiona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
McLetchie, David (Lothian) (Con)
McMillan, Stuart (West Scotland) (SNP)
Milne, Nanette (North East Scotland) (Con)
Mitchell, Margaret (Central Scotland) (Con)
Neil, Alex (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Rennie, Willie (Mid Scotland and Fife) (LD)
Robertson, Dennis (Aberdeenshire West) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Scanlon, Mary (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Scott, John (Ayr) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Stevenson, Stewart (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thompson, Dave (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Walker, Bill (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Watt, Maureen (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Wheelhouse, Paul (South Scotland) (SNP)
White, Sandra (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Wilson, John (Central Scotland) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow) (SNP)
Against
Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Baker, Richard (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Beamish, Claudia (South Scotland) (Lab)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Chisholm, Malcolm (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (Lab)
Dugdale, Kezia (Lothian) (Lab)
Eadie, Helen (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)
Fee, Mary (West Scotland) (Lab)
Ferguson, Patricia (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (Lab)
Findlay, Neil (Lothian) (Lab)
Gray, Iain (East Lothian) (Lab)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Harvie, Patrick (Glasgow) (Green)
Henry, Hugh (Renfrewshire South) (Lab)
Johnstone, Alison (Lothian) (Green)
Kelly, James (Rutherglen) (Lab)
Lamont, Johann (Glasgow Pollok) (Lab)
Macdonald, Lewis (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Macintosh, Ken (Eastwood) (Lab)
Marra, Jenny (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Martin, Paul (Glasgow Provan) (Lab)
McDougall, Margaret (West Scotland) (Lab)
McMahon, Michael (Uddingston and Bellshill) (Lab)
McMahon, Siobhan (Central Scotland) (Lab)
McNeil, Duncan (Greenock and Inverclyde) (Lab)
McTaggart, Anne (Glasgow) (Lab)
Murray, Elaine (Dumfriesshire) (Lab)
Park, John (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Pearson, Graeme (South Scotland) (Lab)
Pentland, John (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab)
Simpson, Dr Richard (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Smith, Drew (Glasgow) (Lab)
Smith, Elaine (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab)
Stewart, David (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Abstentions
Urquhart, Jean (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
The result of the division is: For 83, Against 36, Abstentions 1.
Motion agreed to,
That the Parliament agrees the following programme of business—
Wednesday 23 November 2011
2.30 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Debate: Carers Strategy
followed by Business Motion
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 24 November 2011
9.15 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Debate: Maritime Safety and Coastguards
11.40 am General Question Time
12.00 pm First Minister’s Question Time
12.30 pm Members’ Business
2.15 pm Themed Question Time
Health, Wellbeing and Cities Strategy
2.55 pm Scottish Government Debate: Scotland’s Contribution to UN Climate Summit
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Wednesday 30 November 2011
2.30 pm Time for Reflection
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Business
followed by Business Motion
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business
Thursday 1 December 2011
9.15 am Parliamentary Bureau Motions
followed by Scottish Government Business
11.40 am General Question Time
12.00 pm First Minister’s Question Time
2.15 pm Themed Question Time
Infrastructure and Capital Investment;
Culture and External Affairs
2.55 pm Scottish Government Business
followed by Parliamentary Bureau Motions
5.00 pm Decision Time
followed by Members’ Business