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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament

Meeting date: Thursday, September 15, 2011


Contents


First Minister’s Question Time


Engagements



1. To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S4F-00130)

Meetings to take forward the Government’s programme for Scotland.

Iain Gray

This afternoon, we will debate the First Minister’s plans for corporation tax. I have often criticised the First Minister for failing to build a consensus but, this week, he has managed to unite the Scottish Trades Union Congress and the Confederation of British Industry in rejecting his plans for a regressive corporation tax competition within the United Kingdom. Will he listen to the STUC and the CBI and drop his plan?

No.

Iain Gray

I guess the First Minister listens only to those who tell him what he wants to hear. Last week, he was clear that one person he listens to—he called him a voice of economic sanity—is Nouriel Roubini, the economist. The very next day, Professor Roubini was railing against economic nationalism, warning against a race to the bottom on tax and imploring us to leave behind

“the nationalist demons of our past”.

Surely the First Minister will take the advice of a Roubini and slay his own nationalist demons.

The First Minister

I saw the Labour press release last Saturday morning and, in a kindly way, assumed that Iain Gray could have had nothing to do with such nonsense. To translate that quote and say that it refers to Scotland is extraordinary, even by the Labour Party’s standards.

Let us have a look at some of the people who back the Scottish National Party’s position on corporation tax. They include Sir Tom Hunter, one of Scotland’s most successful businesspeople and formerly a major supporter and, if I remember correctly, funder of the Scottish Labour Party—I certainly do not hold that against him, with his substantial business record. They also include Jim McColl, currently Scotland’s most successful businessperson. However, the one person whose firm support for the sensible policies that are being pursued by this Government I would quote more than anyone else’s is Wendy Alexander, Iain Gray’s predecessor. The report of the committee that she convened said that the unanimous view of the committee was that,

“if a scheme to vary corporation tax were to be available in some of the devolved countries of the UK as a tool of the UK Government’s regional economic policy, it should be available as an option for a Scottish Government to use also.”

If only Iain Gray would follow the example of his predecessor, Wendy Alexander.

Iain Gray

Of course, my predecessor, Wendy Alexander, would happily make the point that she does not believe in a corporation tax race to the bottom at all. The point that she made was that, if one part of the UK were given such a scheme—and it would be a mistake to do so—others should have it as well.

Professor Roubini was very clear that the way forward was fiscal integration, not economic nationalism. Yes, he was writing in the context of Europe. Maybe that is why the First Minister thinks that Professor Roubini’s views do not matter this week. It might be that the First Minister does not care about Europe any more. Last week, the Minister for Culture and External Affairs said that we might not be in the European Union at all if we were independent. What about the First Minister? Does he still believe in independence in Europe, since his minister apparently does not?

The First Minister

I know only two people who actually believe that—one is Iain Gray and the other is The Daily Telegraph. Perhaps Iain Gray now sees The Daily Telegraph as the house journal of the Labour Party in Scotland. [Interruption.] I think that The Daily Telegraph is friendlier to the Conservatives in Scotland than it is to the Conservatives in London at the moment, as far as I can determine, but I am sure that it could shift allegiance quite easily to the Labour Party in Scotland.

For the second week in a row, I have brought to the chamber a copy of “Your Scotland, Your Voice: A National Conversation”. I will not read the whole of the contents of page 10, although I commend them to Iain Gray, but section 8.12 states:

“An independent Scotland would continue membership of the European Union”.

Iain Gray

The house journal of this chamber is the Official Report, in which Mr Salmond’s minister said that perhaps an independent Scotland did not need to be part of Europe.

I did not believe that that could be the Scottish Government’s position, so we asked the Government for all the work that it has undertaken on the case for independence. I have it here. On business investment there are three pages; on joining the euro, two pages; and on share of the national debt, two and a bit pages. Frankly, kids in modern studies write longer essays—and this is the case that the First Minister is making for Scotland’s future.

Is it not the truth about the case for independence that when one scratches the surface, there is nothing there?

The First Minister

“Your Scotland, Your Voice” has 176 pages; it is obviously too long and too detailed for Iain Gray. I will have to send him the management summary.

Iain Gray says hard things about the Government week by week in the chamber, but I do not think that he means them, and I will tell members why. He used to sit next to Andy Kerr, who similarly attacked the Government in vehement terms. However, only a few days ago, Andy Kerr—remember him?—stated in The Herald:

“There are people in the SNP I like more than ... in the Labour Party”

and:

“I’d argue Alex Salmond is the foremost politician not just in Scotland, but in the UK”.

He also stated:

“I spent a lot of time with John”

Swinney

“over the years due to my financial brief. I have a great deal of time for him. He’s got a difficult job which he does very well ... he works incredibly hard.”

I know that when Iain Gray has retired, he will be writing just like Andy Kerr.


Prime Minister (Meetings)



2. Can the First Minister contain himself? It is absolutely extraordinary to watch such self-satisfaction.

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Prime Minister. (S4F-00113)

I have no such plans in the near future.

Annabel Goldie

Last week, I asked the First Minister twice what would—if he got his way—be his personal preference for our currency: the British pound or the euro. Twice he ducked it, and would not tell us—no doubt too embarrassed to say what his personal preference is. All we got was an endless stream of words on process.

Let me try again. Does he believe, given what is happening at the moment, that an independent Scotland should join the euro zone?

The First Minister

The position is as I set out last week. I am sorry that I have to keep reading it out—I assumed that Annabel Goldie would, over the course of the past seven days, take the opportunity to read the document that Iain Gray did not read. The Scottish Government’s position this week is exactly the same as the position that I read out last week.

Annabel Goldie

When he talks about himself, you cannot shut him up. [Laughter.] When he is asked a serious, substantive question, a quite uncharacteristic coyness overwhelms him.

Everybody who is watching and listening knows that the First Minister is not answering the question because he is squirming with embarrassment. He is too scared to admit his personal preference. It is pathetic, and what a contrast to his colleague, the member of the European Parliament Alyn Smith, who was asked the very same question—whether he believed that an independent Scotland should join the euro—on Radio Scotland this morning. He replied:

“I do. And the euro will emerge stronger from this. The SNP’s position on the euro has been robust and intellectually sound throughout.”

If the First Minister’s MEP colleague can come clean, why can Alex Salmond not come clean? Why does he not just admit that Alex Salmond wants the euro?

The First Minister

I heard the interview this morning, and the MEP concerned said exactly what is in the “Your Scotland, Your Voice” document, which is that

“Scotland would continue to operate within the sterling system until a decision to join the Euro by the people of Scotland in a referendum when the economic conditions were right.”

That is a robust position and it is remarkably similar to another political party’s position. I quote page 67 of last year’s Liberal Democrat manifesto:

“We believe that it is in Britain’s long-term interest to be part of the euro. But Britain should only join when the economic conditions are right, and”

when the decision is

“supported by the people of Britain in a referendum.”

It is extraordinary that, when Annabel Goldie—or at least her party—is in alliance with the Liberal Democrats at Westminster, she should attack a policy that seems extraordinarily similar to that party’s policy. I would have said that the Scottish Government is a model of consistency on the issue in comparison with the Conservative and Liberal parties’ deep divisions on a policy that is part of a single Government’s platform. I do not know whether Annabel Goldie supports her party’s part of the coalition or the Liberal Democrats’ part of the coalition but, until those parties resolve their difficulty, it is difficult to attack the consistency of the SNP’s position.

I note that the Conservative-Liberal Democrat Government proposed legislation on sell-by dates today. I do not think that that was a specific reference to the Scottish Conservative Party’s sell-by date.

Christine Grahame has a constituency supplementary.

Christine Grahame (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)

Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale is part of the south of Scotland. Does the First Minister share my concern that the south of Scotland—notwithstanding the fact that it does not even receive STV—is not on the eligibility list for consideration in Jeremy Hunt’s consultation on local TV? Is the Government in communication with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport at Westminster about that omission?

I will ensure that the Government is in touch with Jeremy Hunt. I thank Christine Grahame for her information and I will write to her. She raises a serious issue that I know is deeply felt in her constituency.


Cabinet (Meetings)



3. To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S4F-00121)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

At its next meeting, the Cabinet will discuss an extraordinary—even threatening—letter that Mr Swinney has received from Danny Alexander. In response to what I thought was a reasonable request for the United Kingdom Government to consider delaying the onset of increased pension contributions in the public sector until the pay freeze period is over, we received the following reply about the schemes for which we have administrative responsibility:

“If you decide not to take forward these changes, the Treasury will need to make corresponding adjustments to your budget. ... I would have to reduce the Scottish Government’s budget by £8.4 million for every month’s delay.”

That letter can be called many things, but it does not seem liberal or democratic to me.

Willie Rennie

Before the summer, the Scottish Government said that Supreme Court judges were ambulance chasers who visited Scotland only for the Edinburgh festival and that the Supreme Court was a court in another land. Yesterday, the First Minister welcomed his expert group’s conclusion that the Supreme Court has a role to play for Scots and is well qualified to do that. Has he dropped his threat to cut the court’s money?

The First Minister

I welcome Lord McCluskey’s report. As Willie Rennie knows, Lord McCluskey made it clear that he would consider his report within the current constitutional arrangements. Within those arrangements, he has made two significant proposals—that the Supreme Court should become involved only if the High Court gives leave to appeal, as is the case under English jurisdiction; and that appeals should be on points of human rights law and should not affect the disposal that the court in Scotland makes. In the context of the current constitutional arrangements, those are substantial steps forward.

Willie Rennie will have noted Lord McCluskey’s contribution to the recent House of Lords debate and his critique of the amendments to the Scotland Bill that Lord Wallace has proposed. Now that Lord McCluskey and his group have pronounced, I hope that the Parliament sees the importance of retaining the integrity of Scotland’s criminal law system.

Willie Rennie

The First Minister’s tone is certainly different from the inflammatory tone that he and the Cabinet Secretary for Justice adopted before the recess. However, the First Minister was at it again yesterday in his press release. That is why Lord Steel resigned from the Presiding Officers panel. The review supports the Supreme Court—it wants to widen access and it says that the court is particularly qualified to do the job. In the summer, we saw the First Minister’s toxic mix of prejudice and nationalism. Will he agree that that has no place in the future and will he change his ways?

The First Minister

Somebody who talks about a “toxic mix of prejudice” hardly seems in a great position to complain about other people’s language, in this chamber or elsewhere. If that description were to be applied to anything, public sector workers who are watching the broadcast today might apply it to the letter from Danny Alexander and find that entire attitude of huge importance, and they would consign his political party to even lower support than it has now, if that were possible.


Oil and Gas (Tax Regime)

Kevin Stewart (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)



4. To ask the First Minister what recent discussions the Scottish Government has had with the United Kingdom Government regarding changes to the tax regime for North Sea oil and gas. (S4F-00116)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

The North Sea makes a huge contribution to the Scottish economy. It supports more than 200,000 jobs and is expected to raise £13.4 billion in tax revenue for the UK Exchequer this year, which in cash terms is the highest total in history. However, the chancellor’s decision to increase the supplementary charge has damaged investor confidence and means that a number of marginal fields are no longer commercially viable. Last week, I wrote to the chancellor to propose the introduction of a statutory consultation period on any future changes to the North Sea fiscal regime, which would help to restore much-needed confidence and ensure that concerns about future reforms could be identified and discussed before being implemented, rather than afterwards.

Kevin Stewart

I thank the First Minister for his wise intervention with the chancellor. I hope that the UK Government will listen.

Does the First Minister agree that the Prime Minister’s comments yesterday, in which he branded as “stupid” the 68 per cent of Scots who believe that North Sea oil revenue should be allocated to Scotland, were disgraceful? Would the Prime Minister’s disparaging comments not be better reserved to describe his chancellor and the Chief Secretary to the Treasury, whose fag-packet formulation of changes to the North Sea tax regime have caused an immense amount of grief to the industry and those who work in it? [Interruption.]

The First Minister

I am not certain why there was that negative reaction to the question from the Labour benches, given that my understanding is that at least the Labour members of Parliament from Aberdeen agreed exactly with Kevin Stewart’s point. The Prime Minister’s comments yesterday were deeply misguided. They came on the same day as the press launch of “The Official History of North Sea Oil and Gas” by Alex Kemp, who is probably the foremost expert in the world on oil and gas tax and finance. One of the findings in that official history is that the wealth and potential and the benefits and revenues from North Sea oil were consistently downplayed by successive Labour and Conservative regimes.

We can see from that official history that the Prime Minister’s arrogance yesterday in describing the 68 per cent of Scots who believe—reasonably, in my view—that, after £300 billion of revenue has flowed from Scotland to London, perhaps it is time for Scotland to get a turn to enjoy the wealth of its natural resources, is part of a consistent pattern of the Conservative and Labour parties trying to mislead the Scottish people about the wealth and strength of their resources.

Lewis Macdonald (North East Scotland) (Lab)

If, as the First Minister has said, changes in the tax regime for oil and gas are so important that they require a statutory consultation period, does the same principle apply to other fiscal changes? If so, does the First Minister now regret the hasty abolition of transitional relief on non-domestic rates?

The First Minister

Most reasonable people would say that the offer of non-domestic rates in Scotland is the best in these islands by far, with 80,000 businesses benefiting from the small business bonus scheme, which is extraordinary. One reason why the Labour Party performed so desperately poorly in the recent election, particularly in the north-east of Scotland, is that people in the small business community looked at Labour candidates and could see no assurance or guarantee that that enormous benefit to business would continue if the misfortune of a Labour Administration came to pass. Fortunately for Scotland, that misfortune was avoided.


European Free Trade Association (Membership)



5. To ask the First Minister what the Scottish Government’s position is on an independent Scotland joining the European Free Trade Association rather than being a member of the European Union. (S4F-00131)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

For the second week in a row and for the third time during this First Minister’s question time, I refer to “Your Scotland, Your Voice: A National Conversation”. Section 8.12 on page 110 of that document states:

“An independent Scotland would continue membership of the European Union”.

Patricia Ferguson

Is it not time that the First Minister reflected on the confusion that he and his party are in? In the past week, we have heard three different Scottish National Party policy positions on Europe—from the First Minister, from an MEP and from the Cabinet Secretary for Culture and External Affairs. The SNP’s position is so confusing that, last week, SNP back benchers seemed to be debating a motion that Ms Hyslop had chosen not to lodge. The First Minister has been at pains to reassure members that the SNP Government has a coherent policy on Europe, but given the events of the past week, I have to ask: is he sure?

The First Minister

I am sorry; I was somewhere else as that question wended on. The record will show that we went through many alleys and byways. I was trying to work out where the motion was meant to be.

I say two things to Patricia Ferguson. First, she should look back at last week’s Official Report, which I have with me. Any reasonable person—okay, that excludes members of the Labour Party—would not take that interpretation of Fiona Hyslop’s reply to Margo MacDonald. I commend the Official Report to Patricia Ferguson, as I know that she is basically a fair-minded person.

The second piece of advice is that which I gave to her current party leader: please do not take The Daily Telegraph as the bible for reporting on parliamentary debates.

Has the First Minister received from the United Kingdom Government any response to his request that an automatic right to representation in EU negotiations be included in the Scotland Bill?

The First Minister

There has certainly not been a positive response as yet. I think that that right should be included in the Scotland Bill and I will tell members why.

Immediately after the UK general election last year, we were given a commitment—an understanding—by the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary that all the mistakes that had been made with excluding the Scottish ministers, and ministers from the other devolved Administrations where appropriate, were in the past, and that under the new respect relationship they would not happen in the future. William Hague even sent a letter—an instruction—around other ministers. In a matter of months, we found that that instruction—that request and reasonable suggestion—from the Foreign Secretary was being blithely ignored by successive UK Government departments. The Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary cannot persuade UK Government departments, even on issues such as fishing. Some 70 per cent of the quota that remains in UK hands lies in Scottish waters, and Mr Lochhead knows infinitely more about the fishing industry than any UK minister I can think of. Scotland was denied representation even on fishing.

Given the track records of first the Labour Party and now the Conservative-Liberal coalition, I see no alternative way within the current constitutional arrangements to protect Scotland’s right of access to where vital decisions are made. Of course, it would be much simpler if Scotland were an independent country within the European Union.

Margo MacDonald (Lothian) (Ind)

I agree that the minister was quite correct to say last week that the decision on Europe will be based on the conditions of the day. Will the First Minister say, with reference to contemporary conditions and given the openly expressed determination of Chancellor Merkel, President Sarkozy and the European Commission to form a single economic Government and eliminate the sovereignty of member states, whether EFTA, which retains sovereignty for its members, and the European economic area are better bets for genuine Scottish independence than the Franco-German model of the future EU that appears to be developing?

The First Minister

If I followed the logic of Margo MacDonald’s position, that would mean that Britain could not be an independent country within the European Union and any of the unionist parties here that wanted Britain to be an independent country would have to advocate its leaving the European Union.

Just for the sake of argument—and given the occasional difficulty that Margo MacDonald can offer Government ministers who answer her questions honestly—I can say that the policy of the Scottish National Party Government is that an independent Scotland would continue membership of the European Union.


Whisky Industry



6. To ask the First Minister how the Scottish Government is helping the expansion of the whisky industry. (S4F-00132)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond)

I welcome the fact that during the first half of 2011, whisky exports were up by 22 per cent on the same period in 2010. During 2011, they have contributed £2.36 billion to the economy.

Murdo Fraser will be well aware that last year, after a concerted campaign by this Government and the Scotch Whisky Association, the Chinese Government announced that Scotch whisky was to be given legal protection under geographical indication status. Indeed, Vice-Premier Li raised a glass to that announcement himself when he visited Edinburgh in January of this year. Whisky exports to China are now up 30 per cent in the first half of 2011, compared to the first six months of 2010.

Murdo Fraser

The First Minister should of course have included the United Kingdom Government in the list of those responsible for that deal with China. I associate myself with his comments about the export figures, which have gone up, but is it not ironic that while that is happening, the industry remains concerned that foreign countries to which we export, which might look for excuses to impose trade barriers, will use minimum pricing as an excuse to diminish whisky sales? That is what the industry says.

How will the Scottish Government clear the issue of the legality of minimum pricing policy with Brussels before the bill is introduced, given the European Court of Justice’s long-standing rulings against minimum pricing in the past?

The First Minister

A legally proportionate measure could never be used as a justification for illegal discrimination. Of course, I am not the only person in Scotland who believes that—it is believed by the Liberal Democrats now, who support minimum pricing. Indeed, it is believed by not only the Liberal Democrats; I saw a very good contribution to the Official Report by Jackson Carlaw, who said:

“I find myself now reluctantly agreeing with Iain Duncan Smith”—

of course, he is a Conservative; I know that Murdo Fraser has doubts—

—“who has publicly backed alcohol minimum pricing. I believe that we should respect the united and clear view of the health community, the police and the wider Scottish public and back the Government’s policy.”—[Official Report, 8 September 2011; c 1483-4.]

Now we come to the key issue of the Conservative party’s leadership campaign. Jackson Carlaw backs the Government and Iain Duncan Smith on the issue of minimum pricing and Murdo Fraser opposes that policy. Whatever the resolution of that particular argument might be, I assure Murdo Fraser that this Government has absolutely no intention of rebranding or abolishing Scotch whisky, and we very much think that Scotch whisky is fit for purpose.

Bob Doris (Glasgow) (SNP)

Does the First Minister agree that it is hypocritical of Murdo Fraser to try to claim that the Scottish Government intends to penalise the whisky industry with its widely supported minimum pricing policy when his own party at Westminster refuses to do anything about its unfair and discriminatory tax regime, which sees whisky taxed at 185 per cent higher per minimum unit price than cider?

The First Minister

The member perhaps puts his finger on the solution, or the issue that can reconcile Jackson Carlaw, Murdo Fraser and myself—well, perhaps it will not reconcile Jackson Carlaw and Murdo Fraser, but it certainly could unite the three of us—which is to devolve excise duty to Scotland. We could then resolve those arguments, pursue that policy and come to an agreement as a united Parliament.

Helen Eadie (Cowdenbeath) (Lab)

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. Can you advise the Parliament what the position is in relation to the First Minister, now that there is not a special panel, with Lord Steel and Sir George Reid having resigned? There is an issue with the First Minister today. Every parliamentarian expects—and should show—honesty and integrity in any answers that are given. Today the First Minister has either wilfully or unintentionally misled the Parliament, because he said that the euro will not be obligatory for Scotland upon membership of the European Union. On independence being declared—

I think that you have made your point, Mrs Eadie.

—it would be obligatory for us, as a member of the EU, to join the euro. That is European law.

The Presiding Officer

Mrs Eadie, please sit down.

Let me say two things. I am sure that you did not mean to accuse the First Minister of wilfully misleading the chamber and I ask you to reflect on that. Secondly, the ministerial panel that looks at complaints against ministers has nothing to do with the Parliament or, indeed, the Presiding Officer. It is a matter for the First Minister how those complaints are handled

The First Minister

To help Ms Eadie, I point out that the panel does exist. It consists of two distinguished former Lord Advocates—Elish Angiolini and Lord Peter Fraser. I hope that, given that the panel does exist, the Labour Party will now accept its findings and rulings, which, unfortunately, it was not prepared to do when Lord Steel and his colleague George Reid presided over it in the last session of Parliament.

I thank the First Minister for that clarification—

Helen Eadie rose—

Mrs Eadie, is this a further point of order?

I ask for guidance, Presiding Officer. Will you go away and check for the Parliament the European Union law and its integrity? Membership of the euro is obligatory for any new independent state.

The Presiding Officer

Mrs Eadie, please sit down.

I repeat that this is not a matter for the Parliament; it is a matter for ministers. I ask you to reflect on the comments that you made earlier and I hope to hear from you sometime this afternoon, in private.

12:32 Meeting suspended.

14:15 On resuming—