Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill: Stage 1
The first of our debates today is a debate on motion S1M-3689, in the name of Karen Gillon, on stage 1 of the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill. I call Karen Gillon to speak to and to move the motion on behalf of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee.
Members are sometimes surprised by how relevant the topic at time for reflection is to the debate that follows. Today's time for reflection was certainly relevant to the debate that we will have as we consider some of the most marginalised members of our communities among our children and young people.
I am delighted to introduce a committee bill that seeks to establish a commissioner for children and young people. The bill represents the culmination of extensive consultation with organisations, children and young people and I am delighted that some of those children and young people—from the MacRobert youth centre in Stirling, from Northfield Academy in Aberdeen, from Oban, from Morgan Academy in Dundee and from South Lanarkshire youth council—are in the public gallery. When I came into the chamber, I also noticed one or two other people who have come along on their own steam—some of them gave us quite a hard time and made their views clear at the event that we held in the chamber.
In particular, I thank committee reporters Jackie Baillie and Irene McGugan, who have worked on the detail of the bill, and all committee members and clerks past and present for their commitment and hard work in making the bill a reality. On behalf of the committee, I also thank all those in the non-Executive bills unit who put in an inordinate amount of work to ensure that the bill reached this stage.
The ability of committees to initiate legislation sets the Scottish Parliament apart from many other Parliaments. The bill is unanimously supported by members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and is an excellent example of the effectiveness of the committee system in delivering bills. It has shown what can be achieved by committees and the Executive working together to bring forward bills.
In 1989, children's rights were recognised internationally in the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, from which children's commissioners the world over have taken their inspiration. I pay tribute to the voluntary organisations that have campaigned for years for a children's commissioner to be established in Scotland. A children's commissioner was established in Wales in 2000, there is a bill for a commissioner in Northern Ireland and at least 18 other countries worldwide have a children's commissioner. If the bill survives parliamentary scrutiny, there will be a Scottish commissioner for children and young people by this time next year.
The bill's key proposal is the establishment of a commissioner for children and young people, whose general function will be to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people. The bill gives children's rights the attention that they deserve. It will establish a commissioner whose sole interest is the rights of children and young people. The commissioner will have a remit that covers all—not just some—children in Scotland. Many existing organisations do a fantastic job in relation to children's issues and the Executive has delivered many initiatives to ensure that all children and young people get the best possible start in life, but there is no one who can take an independent view over the whole range of issues that affect children and young people in Scotland. The commissioner will be able to do so. That will be the unique value of the post that we seek to establish through the bill.
Of course, the commissioner will need to prioritise issues on which he or she will focus. It is not for the Parliament to prescribe which issues should be considered a priority. The commissioner should be free to take up issues that he or she sees as the most important. However, we would expect a focus on where there is greatest need—that is, on children and young people who are particularly vulnerable. That said, within the broad framework of fulfilling his or her functions, it will be up to the commissioner to decide which issues to tackle and to justify those decisions.
I will go through some of the main proposals in the bill. The appointment will be made by the Queen on nomination by the Parliament. In the worst-case scenario, removal will also be by the Queen, following a resolution of the Parliament. Of course, the commissioner can resign if he or she wishes to do so.
The maximum period for which anyone will be able to serve as a commissioner will be two five-year terms. We expect the appointment to be a full-time appointment and that the terms of appointment will prevent the commissioner from holding a post that might create a conflict of interests—for example, they could not become a member of the Scottish Parliament. We fully expect that the appointment procedure will adhere as far as possible to the Nolan principles and that no one who has been an MSP, a member of Parliament or a member of the European Parliament in the previous year will be eligible for appointment. As an outgoing committee, we strongly recommend that any future committee with responsibility for education reviews the commissioner's progress at least annually.
The commissioner will cover all young people in Scotland up to the age of 18 and those up to the age of 21 who have been looked after by an authority. That reflects the age range covered by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child while recognising the particular vulnerability of those who have been in the care system.
The bill will give the commissioner a number of functions including: to promote the rights of children and young people; to review law, policy and practice; to promote best practice by service providers; to undertake research; and to conduct investigations. Through those functions, the commissioner will encourage everyone in Scotland—including children and young people themselves, service providers, parents, the Executive and the Parliament—to find out about and take account of the rights of children and young people. In other words, the commissioner will take a mainstreaming approach.
That will not be an easy task and, with such a wide remit, it is important that the commissioner's role should be to encourage change rather than to try to impose it. The commissioner is set up to be a persuasive voice—a children's champion—but he or she is not intended to be an alternative to the courts. There is no role in appeals or indeed in individual cases. Moreover, the commissioner's role is not an alternative to the duty of MSPs to represent their constituents. Instead, the commissioner can endeavour to ensure that existing bodies work better for children and young people.
During the consultation process, one of the most contentious issues was the carrying out of investigations. Although we fully expect that that will be only a small part of the commissioner's work, it is in relation to investigations that the bill provides the strongest powers. The commissioner can consider the extent to which a service provider has taken account of rights, interests and views in any action or decision concerning children and young people. However, the commissioner cannot, in an investigation, duplicate the proper function of another organisation or investigate a case that concerns only an individual child.
The bill provides similar powers to those that are available to parliamentary committees in inquiries, notably the power to require the production of documents and the attendance of witnesses. The outcome of an investigation will be a report to the Parliament. There are no statutory sanctions attached to the outcome of investigations. However, other sanctions are available. There is the powerful sanction of publicity and there is the ability to raise issues with the Parliament. We expect the commissioner to make good use of both those.
The commissioner might, after a couple of years of experience, want to take the opportunity to comment on whether the powers provided have proven adequate. That comment could perhaps be presented to Parliament in the annual report. We do not consider that there is any need to make statutory provision for a review of powers. If a review is needed, I am certain that the commissioner will undertake one and prepare a report for the Parliament's consideration.
The commissioner's functions set out a framework for action rather than prescribing the detail of everything that the commissioner will do. Much of the day-to-day detail will need to be filled in by the commissioner once he or she is in post. We feel that that is appropriate. Once the Parliament has laid down the broad principles, the commissioner will be best placed to develop the detailed implementation.
However, the bill gives direction to how those working methods must be developed. The commissioner is required to have regard to the relevant provisions of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. In particular, in accordance with key principles of the convention, the commissioner must listen to children's views and consider their best interests. In addition, and reflecting the mainstreaming approach of the bill, the commissioner must encourage others to act according to those principles.
Taking inspiration from article 12 of the convention, the commissioner will be under a duty to involve children in his or her work. The bill therefore ensures that the commissioner's work will be informed by children and young people. In order to achieve that, the commissioner will have to be accessible and will have to be out and about. We cannot prescribe how that will happen. We live in a society in which the media of communication change quickly. However, the commissioner must ensure that he or she speaks to and involves young people and that he or she works in partnership with other organisations.
The most important point relates to the independence of the commissioner, which is crucial to the post. The commissioner will be independent of the Executive, political parties, statutory bodies and the Parliament. On occasion, the commissioner might be critical of the Scottish Parliament. We should not be afraid of that and we should respect the commissioner's right to be so. We are getting used to criticism.
By supporting the establishment of a commissioner for children and young people, the Parliament will send a message that we are committed to young people and to ensuring the highest regard for their rights. We are creating an office that will make a difference to the lives of children and young people in Scotland. I, for one, would certainly not support the bill if I believed that it provided for another talking shop that would let children and young people down. The post is one with meaning and commitment.
I move,
That the Parliament agrees to the general principles of the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill.
Like Karen Gillon, I welcome in particular the young people who have come to the public gallery to listen to the debate. The debate centres around the best interests of children and young people in Scotland, so it is important that they get the opportunity to hear us restate some of the commitments that we have made previously.
I congratulate the Education, Culture and Sport Committee on the work that it has done in considering the case for a children's commissioner and in bringing forward a bill to establish a commissioner in Scotland. Today is one of the days in the Parliament that I will remember, as someone who over many years has been involved at various stages in the campaigns and in some of the preparation work for such a post. I am sure that others who have been involved in the process will also remember this day. We can take this opportunity to reflect on the fact that the existence of the Scottish Parliament has allowed us to consider children's issues in a way that was not previously possible.
Children are at the heart of the Scottish Executive's agenda. We are committed to building a Scotland where every child matters and where every child and young person gets the best possible start in life and can realise their potential. The First Minister has established a Cabinet sub-committee on children's services. Our budget plans for the next three years confirm our commitment to supporting children and their families and build on the wide range of work that we have undertaken during the past few years to close the opportunity gap for Scotland's children.
We continue to support the better-integrated delivery of children's services throughout Scotland. We have established the changing children's services fund to try to bring about changes in the way in which local authorities, health boards and the voluntary sector work together to deliver better outcomes for some of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged young people.
I believe that we have come a long way in the past few years and I want to say a wee bit about how we have progressed in respect of encouraging the involvement of children and young people. What happens now is a far cry from the days when I worked with various youth organisations—we sometimes had to beat a path to the door of people in local and central Government. Young people now have the right to be consulted on issues that concern them. We have stressed the importance of consulting children in children's services plans and we have provided practical tools to enable people to do that. Through the national debate on education, we are engaging with children as well as with parents, teachers, employers and everyone else who has an interest in education. We have involved young people, including from the Scottish youth parliament, in a range of consultations. That is now expected and is becoming the norm.
Just last Wednesday, we discussed the important issue of child protection, following the recent report of the child protection audit and review. The week before that, we issued the interim report of the working group on young runaways and children abused through prostitution. We are committed to developing a children's charter to centre the child protection system around the needs of the child. Children and young people will, of course, be closely involved in the development of that charter. We are also in the process of consulting on an improved approach to child witnesses to ensure that children's voices are heard. Through the Protection of Children (Scotland) Bill, we seek to establish a list of adults who are unsuitable to work with children.
That is by no means an exhaustive list of the work that has been taken forward in the past year, but it is an indication of the way in which the Executive and the Parliament have been able to focus on children's issues. I want the Parliament to take every opportunity to improve the lives of children and young people. That is why I welcome the proposed establishment of a commissioner for children and young people.
A commissioner for children and young people could provide a strong voice for the most vulnerable and disadvantaged children in Scotland. A commissioner could help to make a real difference to the lives of children and young people, particularly those who often feel that they are not listened to. We have an opportunity through bill to establish a commissioner who can achieve all those things—a commissioner who can have a positive impact on the lives of children and young people. To achieve that, we need to ensure that the role, remit and powers of the commissioner will allow them to build on the strengths and address the weaknesses of the present system.
I welcome the bill's focus on promoting children's rights and its reference to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. We need to raise awareness among children and the wider public—parents, professionals and, indeed, politicians—about children's rights, including the right to be kept safe from harm and to be protected from exploitation and abuse.
The bill's focus on involving children and young people is also to be warmly welcomed. A commissioner should seek to engage with children and young people, listen to their views and reflect those views in his or her work. A commissioner should provide a voice for children and young people, especially those who are most excluded.
The question whether a commissioner would be able to conduct investigations has aroused considerable interest, as Karen Gillon said. It is important that the commissioner's remit allows him or her to undertake generic policy investigations and reviews. That would allow him or her to focus on specific areas, to identify systems' strengths and weaknesses and to make recommendations for change. I welcome the fact that the bill provides that investigations will not relate to reserved matters. That is in line with the Executive's view that the commissioner's overall remit should mirror that of the Scottish Parliament.
The commissioner will need to build strong links with other agencies. He or she will have a wide remit and, inevitably, there will be significant overlap with the work of other statutory and voluntary organisations. I am sure that a commissioner would want to build on the expertise of existing organisations and to develop co-operative working arrangements with other agencies and ombudsmen, including the human rights commission that we are committed to establishing. It is important that the bill encourages such partnership working and I hope that the ad hoc committee will examine that point carefully. It is important that the commissioner does not unnecessarily duplicate the work of other organisations and I welcome the recognition of the importance of ensuring that a commissioner adds value.
We need to be sure that the bill does not prevent the commissioner from carrying out investigations in areas that may also be of concern to other bodies. There may be situations where the commissioner is better placed than other organisations to conduct an investigation or where a joint investigation is appropriate. It would be helpful if the ad hoc committee could carefully consider those matters to ensure that we strike the right balance and do not inadvertently preclude such partnership working.
The committee will also wish to ensure that the bill strikes the right balance between providing clarity to organisations about whether they are included within the commissioner's remit and ensuring that the legislation is sufficiently flexible to cover the range of issues that impact on children.
I welcome the introduction of the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill. The Education, Culture and Sport Committee has done a considerable amount of work on it and a considerable amount of work will still have to be done as the bill goes through the process. I look forward to working with the convener and other members of the ad hoc committee to ensure that we have a commissioner for children who will deliver for children and young people throughout Scotland.
I begin by conveying apologies from Michael Russell, who is, unfortunately, unwell this afternoon. On a happier note, I congratulate Karen Gillon on her comprehensive introduction to the debate. Not a lot more needs to be said, although perhaps we are still required to say something.
During our previous debate on the subject, I suggested that
"the first line of the proposed bill should read, ‘There shall be a Scottish commissioner for children and young people'."—[Official Report, 25 September 2002; c 14049.]
Although that precise wording was disallowed, I am pleased to report that section 1(1) reads:
"There is to be a Commissioner for Children and Young People in Scotland."
And yes, I like that, too. For me, this is not just another debate on another piece of legislation, because I have a long-standing commitment to the establishment of a children's commissioner, which I can now see being realised.
I have been privileged—I use that word deliberately—to act as one of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee's reporters on the bill and to work on its detail. That has been a fascinating and rewarding experience. I express my thanks to the clerks and to the non-Executive bills unit for the assistance that they have given us in that task. I record my appreciation of the efforts of my co-reporter, Jackie Baillie, whose previous experience with bills proved to be extremely useful.
Even as it stands, the bill will ensure that there is a commissioner who will be a powerful, independent—I like that word, too—voice to represent the interests of all children and young people in Scotland. This significant and unique post will provide a focused approach to the promotion of the rights of children and young people. The commissioner will be able to influence decision making at the highest level.
Anyone who remains in doubt about whether such a post is required should read the interview with Peter Clarke, the Welsh children's commissioner, in the Sunday Herald this weekend. He said:
"Despite the huge goodwill that came with this office I am continually disappointed by the public's attitude towards children."
He is of the opinion that a "bi-polar outlook persists" in our perception of children:
"You either have the poor wee kids who you've got to protect—which is obviously correct in cases of abuse. And then at the other end of the scale children are uncivilised vandals".
In Wales, that adult prejudice is more than compensated for by the enthusiasm of children, who, he says, are extremely pleased
"to have someone to listen to them about what they think and feel".
Peter Clarke is in no doubt that in its first year the office of the children's commissioner for Wales has made life-changing differences to children. He confirms to us the value and benefits of investing in young people. He said:
"Children are highly creative powers who can help us develop … policies."
The most important piece of advice that he passes on to his prospective Scottish counterpart is:
"Do not lose touch with the children you are there to serve."
It is immensely satisfying that the bill is strong on precisely that issue. It contains a duty to involve children and young people in the work of the commissioner and a requirement to prepare and keep under review a strategy for maintaining that involvement effectively.
There is also a requirement to consult children and young people on the work that the commissioner will undertake. We felt that it was appropriate that the bill should make it clear that, when carrying out those duties,
"the Commissioner must pay particular attention to groups of children and young people who do not have other adequate means by which they can make their views known."
I am sure that all members accept the importance of that focus.
In arriving at the proposals that are outlined in the bill, the committee listened to a great deal of evidence from a wide range of agencies, although the most compelling evidence came from children and young people. I, too, am pleased that some of the contributors are present in the gallery today. As the policy detail was formulated, we embarked on further discussion and held a number of meetings to allow for greater dialogue. Not only was that good practice that conformed to the Parliament's principles of openness and transparency, but it provided a useful means of on-going communication between MSPs and all those with an interest in the establishment of a commissioner post. The meetings allowed concerns, issues and details to be considered and explored as the bill was progressed and drafted. As a result, we can be reasonably sure that the general principles of the bill have the support of much of civic Scotland. I anticipate that the bill will also receive the support of the Parliament today.
I commend to members a comment that was made to us by one of Scotland's children. She said:
"We think that having a children's champion would make a difference because it would help children all over Scotland to stand up for their rights, it would make children feel safer, and it would help children who are sad or depressed. It would also make children happier to know that their ideas had been listened to or maybe acted on."—[Official Report, Education, Culture and Sport Committee, 13 November 2001; c 2781.]
I trust that today the Parliament will move us one step closer to realising those aspirations.
I offer the apologies of my colleague Brian Monteith, who is not able to be with us for the whole of this afternoon's debate. Unfortunately he is attending a family funeral, but he hopes to be with us later if time allows.
As deputy education spokesman for the Conservatives, I am pleased to contribute to the debate on the bill to create a children's commissioner. I do not deny that my party's approach has been rather sceptical from the outset, as members of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee will be aware. I do not apologise for that; indeed I sometimes wish that there were more scepticism about legislation.
It is to be regretted that so many people—especially some of those elected to the Parliament—believe that the Parliament's success should be measured by the quantity of legislation rather than by its quality. To borrow a phrase from manufacturing, it is not the productivity that matters but the build quality. Lawmaking is a serious business, and it is important that we examine whether other approaches might be used before we commit ourselves to legislation.
It is crucial that an initially attractive idea about the need for a children's commissioner was challenged and justification sought. I believe that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee understood its role in that regard and that it has made a case for a children's commissioner that we will support. It is our belief that the evidence that was presented justified the introduction of the committee bill and I congratulate the convener on her introductory remarks.
Evidence from witnesses who are active in the field of child law, protection and care have made a compelling case, especially for giving looked-after children a voice. During the evidence sessions, my colleague Brian Monteith said that a commissioner should be able to walk before he or she can run, and I am glad that the committee has resisted calls to give the commissioner even greater powers than are provided for in the bill.
Account has been taken of a number of our concerns, such as the possible threat of family and parental rights and responsibilities being challenged. The possibility of the commissioner taking up individual cases has been reined back and the suggestion that the commissioner would represent the views of Scotland's youth has, quite properly, been disposed of.
Let us have a commissioner who can consider how we can better protect children and how the public services that seek to protect them can be more attentive to their needs than to those of the producers. Let the commissioner report to the Parliament so that we can debate what further measures, if any, must be taken to right wrongs and to relieve injustices. Once the commissioner has had time to bed down and to show what can be done and what might be a weakness in how he or she operates, the Parliament can reconsider—in 10 or more years' time—whether fine tuning or new legislation is needed.
The Conservatives are willing adherents to the bill and we will give it our support in the vote later this afternoon.
There is a sense of déjà vu about this debate, because it is not long since committee members talked about the report that established the case for the appointment of a commissioner for young people in Scotland. I welcome this short debate as the next procedural step on the way to establishing that post. I pay tribute to the work of the committee members, to Karen Gillon's convenership, to Jackie Baillie and Irene McGugan's work as reporters, to the work of the clerks, advisers and the non-Executive bills unit and to our witnesses, including the young people who are here today. I also warmly welcome the Executive's support. As Karen Gillon said, the bill is a good example of a committee and the Executive working together.
We have established that the key function of the commissioner should be to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people. The independence of the post is important and, as others have said, the commissioner will be required to have regard to the views and best interests of children and young people. We have also established the commissioner's right to undertake investigations. All that is important, as is the commissioner's function of reporting to Parliament annually—given that Parliament created the post—and when investigations are carried out. I can also imagine times when the commissioner will be asked to give evidence to committees on legislation—not just education legislation, but other legislation, too.
Recent debates have covered the kind of territory that might be of interest to the commissioner. We have discussed bills that deal with such issues as the protection of children, reviews of child protection, the treatment of young offenders, safety on the internet and the regulation of care. We have also discussed issues relating to education in its widest form, including provision for particular groups of young people. For example, we have considered the way in which young disabled people, refugee children and young people with special needs are dealt with. Sport in schools, school meals provision and health and physical activity are other issues that might be of interest to the commissioner. The remit is wide.
As Murdo Fraser and others have said, it is true that, initially, people questioned the need for the commissioner. Karen Gillon, the convener of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee, has acknowledged that, although she began by being sceptical, she was convinced by the evidence.
On a previous occasion, Brian Monteith reminded us that a range of individuals and bodies—MSPs, ministers, local authorities and voluntary organisations—are already charged with caring for young people. The title of the recent report of the child protection audit and review—"It's everyone's job to make sure I'm alright"—indicated that it is everyone's job to look after children. However, when everyone is supposed to be doing a job, the network that is created often has flaws that mean that each agency is in danger of leaving elements of responsibility for others to pick up.
It is important that the commissioner will be charged with having an overview of all children's issues and with spotting relevant issues, challenging them and drawing people's attention to them. The commissioner will have primary responsibility for promoting and protecting the interests of young people. He or she will be dedicated to that task. The commissioner's independence will avoid the baggage of political bias, and ministers will have to respond to comments and challenges from a powerful advocate of children's needs.
As others have said, the commissioner's access to children is a central issue. The Parliament has tried to consult children at every stage and we wish to expand such consultation. However, the ways in which we can do that are cumbersome. The commissioner will be more agile in being able to meet and deal with children. The commissioner will be able to move around the country more easily than we can. That is an important aspect.
I want to comment on the commissioner's ability to conduct investigations. It was suggested that the commissioner should be able to investigate individual cases, but the committee, in framing the bill, decided against that. We were right to do so for two reasons.
First, the commissioner's time could be dominated by individual cases, to the extent that his or her ability to have a general oversight of children's issues might be threatened. Secondly, it is important that the commissioner's perspective should be broad. Conflicts can arise between the rights of an individual and the rights of those around them. A legal case might seek legitimately to elevate the rights of an individual client above the rights of others who have been affected by the case. The commissioner should always have a broader view—he or she should have the interests of children as a whole in his or her sights.
I look forward to the bill's swift progress through the Parliament and to the appointment of a commissioner who will focus sharply on the remit that we have outlined in the bill. I know that he or she will pursue that agenda with vigour and I hope that he or she will be focused and persuasive in advocating the interests of children. I hope, too, that the commissioner will not be a zealot and will recognise that, as well as human rights, we have responsibilities, and that the wider issues of children and young people are best served when their interests are acknowledged proportionately, within society as a whole.
The commissioner will be a champion and an advocate of children's rights. Yesterday, the First Minister indicated that he wished to establish better monitoring and inspection regimes for public services. At the highest level, the commissioner will be a powerful and respected monitor and scrutiniser of the way in which Scotland treats its children.
In the open debate, we have time for two short speeches of three minutes each.
I add my thanks to the clerks, to NEBU, to my parliamentary colleagues on the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and, in particular, to Irene McGugan. Such cross-party working shows the Parliament at its best.
George Bernard Shaw once wrote:
"It's all that the young can do for the old, to shock them and keep them up to date."
He was undoubtedly feeling his age. However, it is true—dare I say it—that us wrinklies need constantly to be kept up to date. We need to pay particular attention to the way in which our children's world is changing. Today, children have a host of new opportunities available to them and it is essential that they are helped to make the most of them. At the same time, children are exposed to new dangers via the internet and through drugs and crime. As vulnerable members of our society, they deserve our protection.
Bernard Shaw was also right that, from time to time, we are shocked; but we are shocked not so much by the way in which children behave as by the fact that, in a country such as Scotland, children can still be abused through prostitution or bullied to the point that they want to harm themselves. That beggars belief.
Time and again, in discussions of children's rights, references are made to the need for communication and a joined-up approach to children's services. However, as yet there is no one individual or office dedicated exclusively to children and to promoting their interests and constantly working to seek improvement. The creation of a commissioner for children and young people in Scotland will fill that gap.
The commissioner will be more akin to a guide dog than a watchdog. Through the commissioner's significant powers of investigation, he or she may, indeed, snap at the heels of underperformers in children's services, but the role provides for a much broader and much more proactive remit than that. The commissioner will have the duty to guide service providers towards best practice.
The commissioner will also have the job of acting as our eyes and ears in relation to concerns and the welfare of children up and down the country. I particularly welcome that aspect, because it is hard to focus on so many of the different needs of children simultaneously, yet those needs must not, and cannot, be neglected. An independent and permanent office of the children's commissioner will ensure that the welfare of our young is never marginalised by political considerations and that children's voices are not lost in the clamour for the Parliament's attention.
When the Education, Culture and Sport Committee set up the inquiry into the need for a children's commissioner, we did what some would have considered unthinkable: we consulted young people. We consulted not just a few young people, but hundreds. One 14-year-old girl who participated in a seminar said:
"Adults don't listen to children but they would listen to a Commissioner for children."
She has a point. I ask the chamber to support the principles of the bill.
Speaking as a genuine wrinkly—unlike the young ladies on the Labour benches—I have been actively involved in discussing and promoting this subject over the past 10 years or so. As I have played no part in the bill, I pay genuine tribute to those who have worked together to make the idea a reality. I congratulate both the committee and the Executive on going along with this encouraging proposal despite their initial doubts.
I hope that the commissioner will concentrate on the right of young people to be involved in and to play an active part in local activities. Young people have a duty to take part, but we often prevent them from fulfilling that duty because we do not involve them enough. I hope that the commissioner will help young people to sort out things and will get the authorities to give young people power to sort out more of their own affairs, instead of merely parachuting down on them excellent wrinkly schemes.
As I may be a member of the committee that will deal with the bill, I should probably not say anything else in case I am ultra vires or put in jail or something, but it is a good day when such a bill is introduced.
We now move to closing speeches, which should be of three minutes.
I congratulate Karen Gillon and the Education, Culture and Sport Committee on introducing the bill. In years gone by, I was a member of the committee, but I see that it is doing well in my absence—well done. I also congratulate the parliamentary staff on helping to bring such an excellent bill before us.
I take it that Mr Stone is speaking as a smoothie, rather than as a wrinkly.
As they said in "Beyond the Fringe", Esau was a hairy man, but I am a smooth man.
Sorry, Ian Jenkins has thrown me, completely and utterly.
Like all the other members who have spoken, whom I congratulate on their speeches, I support the bill. I want to make two important points that follow on from what Jackie Baillie and Donald Gorrie said.
Reference has been made to the Scottish youth parliament, which is a splendid initiative by the Executive. I hope that the youth parliament will be rolled out to Scotland's more rural local authorities.
As Donald Gorrie rightly said, it is often the case that wrinklies parachute in their policies. I do not think that the commissioner will do that, but if he or she takes the route of telling children what subjects he or she wants to hear their views on, that would be wrong. I hope that in every classroom and scout hall, and wherever there are children, there will be a notice that tells children that if they want to make their views known to the commissioner, they should call this number or write to that address.
Jackie Baillie said that the commissioner will reflect the children's views back to us rather than reflecting our views to the children, and that is the right way to go about it. We must be careful not to fall into the trap of just telling children our views. I am sure that that is a danger. The children of Scotland must feel that they own their commissioner. If that is not the case, he or she will just be yet another old wrinkly who is on the establishment's side.
How often do we MSPs go to community councils and local authorities and hear them blaming the children and asking what should be done about the mess on the streets? They decide to write to the rector of the school and make the usual fuss. That is not what the children's commissioner will be about, and I believe that the minister recognises that.
I underline my earlier point: I hope that the commissioner will take the example of the Scottish youth parliament and ask each of the 32 local authorities what it is doing about including children and young people in their decision-making processes. They should not just have the occasional chat in a modern studies class; they should convene, for example, a Highland youth parliament or an Ayrshire youth parliament. Let us roll out the idea.
The bill presents a terrific opportunity and I say to the committee, "Well done." Sir David, a committee bill such as this is an example of where you and the others on the Scottish Constitutional Convention designed a powerful tool for the Parliament, and it is nice to see that tool being deployed as effectively as it is being deployed today.
I congratulate my erstwhile colleagues on the Education, Culture and Sport Committee and I look forward to seeing the bill progress through the Parliament.
I thank the Presiding Officer for allowing me to arrive late for the debate following my attendance at a family funeral. I am pleased to be able to make a contribution even if it will be brief.
Obviously, I am unable to respond to the many excellent speeches that have undoubtedly been made, but I can congratulate Murdo Fraser on his excellent contribution, because I wrote it and I was meant to deliver it myself. I also pay tribute to Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, in his absence. I always like to mention his role and the work that he did for children and children's care back in the 1990s. That work rather set the ball rolling and I am pleased that the committee has been able to pick up on what still has to be done.
I am often a critic of parliamentary committees; I think that their achievements are often inflated. However, on this occasion, I believe that the Education, Culture and Sport Committee has handled the matter well and has shown a proper degree of scepticism in establishing and agreeing the case, and in involving children and young people in seeing how it might work.
It is also worth mentioning the work of Jackie Baillie and Irene McGugan, who took a lot of the work load off the committee and worked out the detail together with the bill team. The bill is a good example of what committee work can achieve, when hard questions are asked and the right approach is taken to finding a balance, so that we walk before we can run. As a result, the bill does not set up an all-singing, all-dancing commissioner, but one who will make a difference and whom we can all support as an independent person representing young people.
I am pleased to indicate the Conservative party's support for the bill.
I begin by congratulating the committee on the work that it has done. The Parliament should also thank the committee for the work that it has done on the bill. It is quite an achievement.
I remember what I think was the first meeting of the Education, Culture and Sport Committee in 1999, when we sat about and said, "What are we going to do for the next four years?" The children's commissioner was one of the items raised at that time, and it is an achievement that, before the end of the parliamentary session, we will have the ability to appoint a children's commissioner in Scotland.
I followed the germination of the bill. Donald Gorrie and I are perhaps the only members to take part in today's debate who have followed the bill's progress from afar. That interest might allow me to bring to the stage 2 discussions some issues that could be considered so that the bill is exactly right. I mean no criticism of the work that has been done, but that would lend a fresh eye to some of the work.
The investigations that the commissioner will be able to undertake will be a huge part of the commissioner's work. The Education, Culture and Sport Committee took a great amount of evidence on that matter. I know that the committee rejected the idea that the commissioner should be able to investigate individual complaints. That is clearly stated in section 7(3)(b). I remind the stage 2 committee that we are talking about human rights, and children have human rights as well. The Paris principles, which relate to the monitoring of human rights, do not proscribe commissioners and regulators from investigating the cases of individuals who feel that the system has let them down. I offer a word of caution, because there may well be times when individual young people and children feel that they have exhausted the processes that are available to them.
Does Fiona McLeod accept that we have created a new public services ombudsman and that the Parliament should say to the ombudsman from the outset that they must take seriously complaints from children and young people and do so effectively? It would be absolutely wrong for the commissioner to become the last port of call once people have exhausted every other opportunity available to them. The commissioner should not be the last court of appeal.
I am not looking for the commissioner to be the last court of appeal, but having talked about exhausting the process, I hope that there will always be someone to whom children and young people can turn if they feel that the system has let them down. I put that point to the stage 2 committee.
The chamber will not be surprised to hear that I have concerns about section 7(3)(a), on reserved matters. Children's lives in Scotland do not fit into the schedules to the Scotland Act 1998, so I hope that, although the commissioner will not be allowed to investigate reserved matters, he or she will always feel confident and free to comment on reserved matters that impact adversely on the lives of children in Scotland. Ian Jenkins mentioned refugees and asylum seekers. Recently, we have discussed such issues regularly in Parliament, in relation to asylum-seeking children attending local authority schools. That is a reserved matter, but I hope that the commissioner will not feel constrained.
I would like to comment on a few other areas, but I see that the Presiding Officer is asking me to wind up, so I will simply state that a few technical issues will have to be examined at stage 2. I am pleased that the bill and the explanatory notes recognise that when we establish the role of commissioner, it will not be set in stone but will be continually reviewed. I am also pleased that the commissioner will be able continually to review his or her role, and that the Parliament will be able to continue to expand that role as necessary.
I welcome the opportunity to say a few words in closing for the Executive. The debate has been short but useful. All members have given a clear commitment to support the principle of a children's commissioner who can give useful support to children and young people throughout Scotland. I was struck by Ian Jenkins's comment that sometimes, when everybody is supposed to do a job, nobody does it. In this time of joined-up working, we need to remember that we must have systems that will monitor the situation, and which will ensure that we make a difference. Yes, there will be times when having a commissioner for children and young people might not be comfortable for the Executive and might challenge us, but that is not necessarily a bad thing.
I am reminded of an occasion when I was doing a course, when I had to write something on whether, if we had a minister for children and young people in a—at that time—mythical Scottish Parliament, we would also need a children's commissioner. My answer then was yes. My answer is still yes, because although we all have different jobs to do, ultimately we need to get the best deal for children and young people, and we need to have the right resources in place to do that—that includes the commissioner.
It is worth reflecting on Donald Gorrie's view that the wrinklies should not dispense the policy from on high. Children form one fifth of Scotland's population and are in more than 25 per cent of all households. I would like to think that that does not mean that the other four fifths of us have moved into the wrinkly population. For once in my life, I would quite like a middle way.
On a serious note, children and young people are a substantial part of our population. They deserve no lesser services than anybody else. It is important that we send that message today. That was summed up in some of the comments about the need for people to work together and in Karen Gillon's helpful comments about the role of the Scottish public services ombudsman.
As I said, the debate has been useful and constructive. It is clear that several issues will continue to be discussed in the ad hoc committee, but I am pleased that everyone who spoke today gave their support in principle for the bill.
I thank all the members who participated in the debate. The response has been positive, even from the wrinklies and the smoothie—wherever he is.
The bill provides an opportunity to change the lives of children and young people in Scotland. I welcome the minister's comments, her support for the bill and her commitment to children's rights.
I will deal with the issues that Fiona McLeod raised about individual investigations. Throughout the Education, Culture and Sport Committee's inquiry, the issue of individual investigations arose. Even young people were clear that if a children's commissioner spent his or her time simply dealing with individual investigations, they would be unable to do the important work that they will need to do.
It is clear that the commissioner must act within the Scottish Parliament's remit, but the commissioner might occasionally need to comment on reserved issues, if they are incidental to work in which the commissioner is involved.
The Education, Culture and Sport Committee took evidence from several agencies. Statutory and voluntary organisations welcomed the establishment of a children's commissioner. More important, the committee took evidence from children and young people—some of whom are in the public gallery—through seminars, participation events, video links and even a video.
Young people made strong representations on the need for a young person's champion—a tsar, ombudswoman, ombudsman or commissioner. Regardless of the commissioner's title, the three principles of consultation, participation and accessibility should underlie everything that the commissioner does. The commissioner should have a particular remit to engage with children who are vulnerable or who might not be involved in consultation exercises—those kids whom people talk about but whose voices are seldom heard.
Children and young people should be involved and they should know what the commissioner does and how to make contact. As some of the young people who contributed to the committee's inquiry suggested, the commissioner should be in touch with young people and should be someone with whom young people can be in touch.
The commissioner's work will support and enhance the excellent work that statutory and voluntary agencies perform. The minister is correct to say that the commissioner's role will build on the networks and develop co-operative ways of working with relevant agencies.
The bill will establish a significant new office for children and young people in Scotland. The children's commissioner will work to ensure that policy makers and service providers prioritise the interests of children and young people. One of the commissioner's core functions, as set out in section 4 of our bill, is to
"keep under review the law, policy and practice relating to … children and young people with a view to assessing the adequacy and effectiveness of such law, policy and practice".
The office of the commissioner will be new and unique. As we have heard from all the debate's participants, it will be unique in several ways. Those include its coverage of all children and young people, which will provide a focus for co-ordinating and promoting children and young people's rights, and its ability to develop an overview of issues that pertain to children and young people's rights. I do not think that the commissioner could do the job that they will set out to do if they had to deal solely or primarily with investigations of individual cases.
Children will inform the work that is to be undertaken and its prioritisation. As Karen Gillon stated, no other single agency has the same combination of breadth of remit, independence and statutory status. The commissioner will be informed by the views of children and young people and will represent their views to the Parliament, the Executive and others. As Irene McGugan said, the commissioner will have a clear duty to engage actively with young people. The commissioner will also develop networks and consider imaginative ways of ensuring accessibility.
Finally, as Karen Gillon has done, I thank all those who were involved in supporting the bill. I also thank voluntary organisations such as Save the Children for their role in developing a participation process; the Scottish Parliament information centre for its excellent research; the committee's wonderful clerks; the non-Executive bills unit; all the committee members who worked on the bill from the start, including Fiona McLeod; and all the people who worked on the bill and the participation events to pull things together. I particularly thank Jackie Baillie and Irene McGugan for their hard work in progressing this important legislation.
The bill is an excellent example of cross-party co-operation. It is also a good example of how a minister can work closely with a committee. We thank Cathy Jamieson for her support. The bill will give children and young people a voice. As I said in September:
"The proposal is an idea whose time has come."
The bill will put Scotland at the cutting edge in the struggle to improve children's rights. I commend it to the Parliament.