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Chamber and committees

Meeting of the Parliament (Hybrid)

Meeting date: Tuesday, June 14, 2022

Agenda: Time for Reflection, Business Motion, Topical Question Time, Benefits of Independence, Education Reform Update, Business Motion, Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill: Stage 3, Decision Time, Great Bernera Community Land Buyout


Contents


Business Motion

The Presiding Officer (Alison Johnstone)

The next item of business is consideration of business motion S6M-04990, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, setting out changes to today’s business. Any member who wishes to speak against the motion should press their request-to-speak button now.

Motion moved,

That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—

(a) Tuesday 14 June 2022—

after

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

insert

followed by Ministerial Statement: Benefits of Independence

delete

6.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

7.20 pm Decision Time

(b) Wednesday 15 June 2022—

after

followed by Health, Social Care and Sport Committee Debate: Health and Wellbeing of Children and Young People

insert

followed by Stage 3 Debate: Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill

delete

5.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

6.00 pm Decision Time—[George Adam]

I call Neil Bibby to speak to and move amendment S6M-04990.1.

14:05  

Neil Bibby (West Scotland) (Lab)

I rise to speak in support of the amendment that I have lodged to the business motion.

At a meeting of the Parliamentary Bureau today, the Scottish Government indicated that, unfortunately, the Cabinet Secretary for Rural Affairs and Islands is self-isolating due to Covid and is unable to attend Parliament. We wish her a speedy recovery. Ministers have previously participated in debates remotely. However, the cabinet secretary is scheduled to lead for the Government in the stage 3 proceedings on the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill, for which many amendments have been lodged, so her appearing remotely would mean that she would be unable to take direct interventions in order to provide clarity on the proposed legislation. It would also inhibit the free flow of debate. I raised serious concerns about that at the bureau’s meeting today.

As members will be aware, remarks that are made by ministers at stage 3 form part of the interpretation of legislation for years to come. It was suggested that another minister could respond, but it was also acknowledged—fairly, I think—that they would not have the intimate knowledge of the bill that would enable them to respond properly and to provide clarity to members.

The suggestion of taking interventions at the end of the cabinet secretary’s contributions is also unsatisfactory and would not be conducive to free-flowing debate. I did not think that that approach was satisfactory earlier; I do not think so now. It would show Parliament in a bad light.

Stephen Kerr (Central Scotland) (Con)

Does Neil Bibby agree that his attempt to change the business motion is, in fact, an expression of the idea of the straw that broke the camel’s back? Today, Parliament has been treated with nothing but contempt—[Interruption.]

Thank you. We will hear Mr Kerr.

Stephen Kerr

—by the Scottish Government. Does he share my growing concern that the Parliament is unable to hold the Government to account, and is therefore failing the people of Scotland, because of the arrogance of the First Minister and the Scottish Government?

Neil Bibby

That issue was also discussed at the bureau today. I made clear my views that Government announcements should be made to Parliament first, and that press conferences should happen later. The view was also expressed at today’s bureau meeting that such statements should be given by the First Minister and not by the Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, External Affairs and Culture.

I also think that there are serious concerns about the business that is scheduled for later today on the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill—not only about holding the Government to account but about properly scrutinising the bill and the Government providing clarity on its proposals.

I did not think that that situation was satisfactory at the bureau’s meeting, and I do not find it so now, which is why I will move an amendment that would postpone consideration of the Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill at stage 3 to ensure that there can be proper parliamentary scrutiny and clarity on that important piece of legislation.

I move amendment S6M-04990.1, to insert after “followed by Ministerial Statement: Education Reform Update”:

“delete

followed by Stage 3 Proceedings: Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill”.

I call George Adam to respond on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau.

14:08  

The Minister for Parliamentary Business (George Adam)

As you will know, Presiding Officer, Ms Gougeon tested positive for Covid today but was still fit enough to be online earlier and to take part in the bureau’s proceedings. We agreed there that there would be an option and—with the Presiding Officer’s indulgence—flexibility to find a way to work around the situation that we have found ourselves in, and to ensure that members would have an opportunity to engage with Ms Gougeon. There will be a minister here in the chamber who will, should there be any technical issues, be able to fill in the spot that is left by the cabinet secretary, as is normal practice.

Today’s statement is on publication of a scene-setting and comparative analysis paper, which makes no significant policy commitments or announcements regarding our proposals for an independent Scotland. [Interruption.] We will seek to engage—[Interruption.]

I find it hard to believe that the Opposition members find it difficult to understand that the SNP and the Greens believe in an independent Scotland.

Presiding Officer, the Scottish Government respects the role of Parliament in scrutinising delivery of its work programme. The Cabinet Secretary for the Constitution, External Affairs and Culture is in the chamber and is ready to provide more information to Parliament on the publication.

Once again, I stand by the business motion and the discussions that we had in the meeting of the Parliamentary Bureau.

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that amendment S6M-04990.1, in the name of Neil Bibby, which seeks to amend motion S6M-04990, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

The Presiding Officer

There will be a division. There will be a short suspension to allow members to access the digital voting system.

14:10 Meeting suspended.  

14:17 On resuming—  

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that amendment S6M-04990.1, in the name of Neil Bibby, which seeks to amend motion S6M-04990, in the name of George Adam, be agreed to. Members should cast their votes now.

The vote is now closed.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app did not register my vote. I would have voted no.

Thank you. We will ensure that that is recorded.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

Could you wait one minute, Mr O’Kane?

I could not connect, and I would have voted yes.

Thank you, Mr O’Kane. We will ensure that that is recorded.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I had the same situation and would have voted yes.

Thank you, Mr Rennie. We will ensure that that is recorded.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I voted no, but my vote does not appear to have registered. I am not sure whether it has registered.

The Presiding Officer

I confirm that your vote has registered.

For

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)

Against

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division on amendment S6M-04990.1, in the name of Neil Bibby, which seeks to amend motion S6M-04990, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, is: For 49, Against 66, Abstentions 0.

Amendment disagreed to.

The Presiding Officer

The question is, that motion S6M-04990, in the name of George Adam, on behalf of the Parliamentary Bureau, on changes to the business programme, be agreed to. Are we agreed?

Members: No.

There will be a division. Members should cast their votes now.

The vote is now closed.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. The app did not allow me to access the system. I would have voted yes.

Thank you, Mr Gibson. We will ensure that that is recorded.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer.

I can confirm that your vote has been recorded, Mr Balfour.

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. My app was not working. I would have voted yes.

The Presiding Officer

Thank you, Mr Robertson. We will ensure that that is recorded.

For

Adam, George (Paisley) (SNP)
Adam, Karen (Banffshire and Buchan Coast) (SNP)
Adamson, Clare (Motherwell and Wishaw) (SNP)
Allan, Alasdair (Na h-Eileanan an Iar) (SNP)
Arthur, Tom (Renfrewshire South) (SNP)
Beattie, Colin (Midlothian North and Musselburgh) (SNP)
Brown, Siobhian (Ayr) (SNP)
Burgess, Ariane (Highlands and Islands) (Green)
Callaghan, Stephanie (Uddingston and Bellshill) (SNP)
Chapman, Maggie (North East Scotland) (Green)
Coffey, Willie (Kilmarnock and Irvine Valley) (SNP)
Constance, Angela (Almond Valley) (SNP)
Dey, Graeme (Angus South) (SNP)
Don, Natalie (Renfrewshire North and West) (SNP)
Doris, Bob (Glasgow Maryhill and Springburn) (SNP)
Dunbar, Jackie (Aberdeen Donside) (SNP)
Ewing, Annabelle (Cowdenbeath) (SNP)
Ewing, Fergus (Inverness and Nairn) (SNP)
Fairlie, Jim (Perthshire South and Kinross-shire) (SNP)
FitzPatrick, Joe (Dundee City West) (SNP)
Forbes, Kate (Skye, Lochaber and Badenoch) (SNP)
Gibson, Kenneth (Cunninghame North) (SNP)
Gilruth, Jenny (Mid Fife and Glenrothes) (SNP)
Gougeon, Mairi (Angus North and Mearns) (SNP)
Grahame, Christine (Midlothian South, Tweeddale and Lauderdale) (SNP)
Gray, Neil (Airdrie and Shotts) (SNP)
Greer, Ross (West Scotland) (Green)
Harper, Emma (South Scotland) (SNP)
Haughey, Clare (Rutherglen) (SNP)
Hepburn, Jamie (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth) (SNP)
Kidd, Bill (Glasgow Anniesland) (SNP)
Lochhead, Richard (Moray) (SNP)
MacDonald, Gordon (Edinburgh Pentlands) (SNP)
MacGregor, Fulton (Coatbridge and Chryston) (SNP)
Mackay, Gillian (Central Scotland) (Green)
Mackay, Rona (Strathkelvin and Bearsden) (SNP)
Macpherson, Ben (Edinburgh Northern and Leith) (SNP)
Maguire, Ruth (Cunninghame South) (SNP)
Martin, Gillian (Aberdeenshire East) (SNP)
Mason, John (Glasgow Shettleston) (SNP)
Matheson, Michael (Falkirk West) (SNP)
McKee, Ivan (Glasgow Provan) (SNP)
McKelvie, Christina (Hamilton, Larkhall and Stonehouse) (SNP)
McLennan, Paul (East Lothian) (SNP)
McMillan, Stuart (Greenock and Inverclyde) (SNP)
McNair, Marie (Clydebank and Milngavie) (SNP)
Minto, Jenni (Argyll and Bute) (SNP)
Nicoll, Audrey (Aberdeen South and North Kincardine) (SNP)
Regan, Ash (Edinburgh Eastern) (SNP)
Robertson, Angus (Edinburgh Central) (SNP)
Robison, Shona (Dundee City East) (SNP)
Roddick, Emma (Highlands and Islands) (SNP)
Ruskell, Mark (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Green)
Slater, Lorna (Lothian) (Green)
Somerville, Shirley-Anne (Dunfermline) (SNP)
Stevenson, Collette (East Kilbride) (SNP)
Stewart, Kaukab (Glasgow Kelvin) (SNP)
Stewart, Kevin (Aberdeen Central) (SNP)
Sturgeon, Nicola (Glasgow Southside) (SNP)
Swinney, John (Perthshire North) (SNP)
Thomson, Michelle (Falkirk East) (SNP)
Todd, Maree (Caithness, Sutherland and Ross) (SNP)
Torrance, David (Kirkcaldy) (SNP)
Tweed, Evelyn (Stirling) (SNP)
Whitham, Elena (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley) (SNP)
Yousaf, Humza (Glasgow Pollok) (SNP)

Against

Baillie, Jackie (Dumbarton) (Lab)
Baker, Claire (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Lab)
Balfour, Jeremy (Lothian) (Con)
Bibby, Neil (West Scotland) (Lab)
Boyack, Sarah (Lothian) (Lab)
Briggs, Miles (Lothian) (Con)
Cameron, Donald (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Carlaw, Jackson (Eastwood) (Con)
Carson, Finlay (Galloway and West Dumfries) (Con)
Clark, Katy (West Scotland) (Lab)
Cole-Hamilton, Alex (Edinburgh Western) (LD)
Dowey, Sharon (South Scotland) (Con)
Duncan-Glancy, Pam (Glasgow) (Lab)
Findlay, Russell (West Scotland) (Con)
Fraser, Murdo (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Gallacher, Meghan (Central Scotland) (Con)
Golden, Maurice (North East Scotland) (Con)
Gosal, Pam (West Scotland) (Con)
Grant, Rhoda (Highlands and Islands) (Lab)
Greene, Jamie (West Scotland) (Con)
Griffin, Mark (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Gulhane, Sandesh (Glasgow) (Con)
Hamilton, Rachael (Ettrick, Roxburgh and Berwickshire) (Con)
Hoy, Craig (South Scotland) (Con)
Johnson, Daniel (Edinburgh Southern) (Lab)
Halcro Johnston, Jamie (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Kerr, Liam (North East Scotland) (Con)
Kerr, Stephen (Central Scotland) (Con)
Lennon, Monica (Central Scotland) (Lab)
Lockhart, Dean (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Lumsden, Douglas (North East Scotland) (Con)
Marra, Michael (North East Scotland) (Lab)
McArthur, Liam (Orkney Islands) (LD)
Mochan, Carol (South Scotland) (Lab)
Mountain, Edward (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Mundell, Oliver (Dumfriesshire) (Con)
O’Kane, Paul (West Scotland) (Lab)
Rennie, Willie (North East Fife) (LD)
Ross, Douglas (Highlands and Islands) (Con)
Sarwar, Anas (Glasgow) (Lab)
Simpson, Graham (Central Scotland) (Con)
Smith, Liz (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Smyth, Colin (South Scotland) (Lab)
Stewart, Alexander (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con)
Sweeney, Paul (Glasgow) (Lab)
Villalba, Mercedes (North East Scotland) (Lab)
Webber, Sue (Lothian) (Con)
Wells, Annie (Glasgow) (Con)
White, Tess (North East Scotland) (Con)

The Presiding Officer

The result of the division is: For 66, Against 49, Abstentions 0.

Motion agreed to,

That the Parliament agrees to the following revisions to the programme of business for—

(a) Tuesday 14 June 2022—

after

followed by Topical Questions (if selected)

insert

followed by Ministerial Statement: Benefits of Independence

delete

6.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

7.20 pm Decision Time

(b) Wednesday 15 June 2022—

after

followed by Health, Social Care and Sport Committee Debate: Health and Wellbeing of Children and Young People

insert

followed by Stage 3 Debate: Good Food Nation (Scotland) Bill

delete

5.00 pm Decision Time

and insert

6.00 pm Decision Time