Plenary, 12 Feb 2004

Meeting date: Thursday, February 12, 2004

Official Report 704KB pdf

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Commissioner for Children and Young People in Scotland

The next item of business is consideration of motion S2M-886, in the name of Scott Barrie, on behalf of the selection panel on the appointment of a commissioner for children and young people in Scotland. I call on Scott Barrie to speak to and move the motion on behalf of the selection panel.

I speak to the motion in my name, as a member of the selection panel, to invite members of the Parliament to nominate Kathleen Marshall to Her Majesty as the first commissioner for children and young people in Scotland. I would like to say a few words about the background and process before I turn to the proposed nomination of Kathleen Marshall.

The act that established the new and independent office of commissioner for children and young people in Scotland came about as a direct result of a recommendation from the former Education, Culture and Sport Committee. I would like particularly to pay tribute to that committee which, under the convenership of Karen Gillon, conducted an inquiry into the need for a children's commissioner in Scotland. Having concluded that such a post should be established, the committee then set about the process of framing a committee bill to that effect and, eventually, of ensuring that that bill was passed.

Although I have for well over a decade been a passionate believer in the need for such a commissioner, others in Parliament are much more recent converts. Indeed, the former convener herself was won over to the idea not by advocates such as I am, but by the persuasive evidence that was given to the committee by children and young people. The Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Act 2003 was passed by the Scottish Parliament almost a year ago, with the key function of the post being

"to promote and safeguard the rights of children and young people".

In accordance with standing orders, a selection panel under the convenership of the Presiding Officer was, on behalf of Parliament, set up to consider the appointment. The panel consisted of Rhona Brankin, Robert Brown, Ms Rosemary Byrne, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton, Mrs Margaret Ewing and myself, and I would like to take this opportunity to thank those members for their diligence and hard work throughout the sifting and interviewing processes.

The position was advertised in the national press, and I am pleased to say that it attracted a wide range of applications. Given the nature of the post and the views of the committee during the passage of the bill, we thought it essential that children and young people be meaningfully involved in the recruitment exercise. The selection interviews were therefore split into two parts: an interview with children and young people and a more formal interview with the selection panel later the same week.

Twenty children and young people from across Scotland were invited to Our Dynamic Earth on Tuesday 13 January. They came from Edinburgh, Fife, Midlothian, Glasgow, Cumbernauld and Elgin, and were aged between 10 and 17. The reason for the involvement of children and young people was to obtain their perception of the candidates' skills, knowledge and attributes and to report back to the selection panel. Their feedback was invaluable and a number of them have come to see the final part of the process today. On behalf of the selection panel, I want to thank warmly all the children and young people who were involved in the process for their valued contributions. [Applause.] I also thank Louise Rose who acted as an independent assessor to the panel and who ensured that we followed good practice during the process.

I turn to the nominee herself. Kathleen Marshall is a well-known and respected advocate of children's rights in Scotland. She is a qualified solicitor and is currently a child law consultant and visiting professor at the centre for the child and society at the University of Glasgow. Her work has addressed many aspects of the lives of children and young people including family matters, education, international child abduction, health, public care, criminal justice and participation in court processes.

I first had contact with Kathleen Marshall back in 1990 when she was the director of the Scottish Child Law Centre. Her invaluable advice and assistance helped me enormously in my work. I know of many other child care professionals in both the statutory and voluntary sectors who share that view. Her knowledge is extensive and her range of skills is impressive.

I like to think that I come from a strong background of involvement in children's rights. Kathleen Marshall comes from an even stronger background. I have no doubt that she will prove to be an effective and well-respected commissioner who will bring enthusiasm and highly relevant knowledge to the post. I am sure that Parliament will wish her every success.

People like me have waited a long time to see a commissioner for children and young people in Scotland. It is perhaps unfortunate that Wales got in before us, but at least we are ahead of England in appointing our commissioner. On behalf of the selection panel, it is with great pleasure that I move the motion.

I move,

That the Parliament nominates Kathleen Marshall to Her Majesty The Queen for appointment as the Commissioner for Children and Young People in Scotland.

I will be brief. I am conscious of the clock and Scott Barrie covered many of the points that I would have raised.

It was a great privilege to serve on the selection panel, although I think that we all felt that the task was onerous. We did not take it lightly but applied our minds to it. I want to add my thanks to the young people for the feedback that they gave us and I also thank the Presiding Officer and his staff for the great deal of work that they undertook behind the scenes.

As Scott Barrie pointed out, the idea of having a commissioner for children and young people is not new. Indeed, my Plaid Cymru colleague Elfyn Llwyd first floated the idea way back in the 1990s in the Westminster Parliament. That may be the reason why the National Assembly for Wales moved a little bit faster than we did. That said, it is good to see us catch up with Wales and Ireland, where such commissioners exist.

Way back in 1995, Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and I worked together on the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. I think that it was Margaret Smith who referred to that in an earlier debate; if it was not her, I am certain that another member did so. Lord James Douglas-Hamilton steered that act through the Westminster Parliament.

At the time, the Children (Scotland) Act 1995 was seen as a major step forward: members of the Westminster Parliament had wanted such legislation for a long time. It is always possible, however, to improve on previous legislation and I believe that the appointment of the commissioner is a great step forward for Scotland.

I welcome Kathleen Marshall's nomination and I am sure that Parliament as a whole also does so. I hope that we will all be supportive of the motion on her nomination and give our full support and assistance to Professor Marshall as she takes up her onerous task. Certainly, Scottish National Party members support her in the many challenges that we are sure lie ahead.

It seems a very long time ago that the then Minister for Children and Education, Sam Galbraith, asked the Education, Culture and Sport Committee to consider whether Scotland required the appointment of a children's commissioner. Scott Barrie said rightly that I was one of the members who was most sceptical about the need for such a post. I had been involved in youth work for many years and was not convinced that simply by creating a post the rights and needs of children and young people would be heard any more loudly. I felt that we would simply be creating another talking shop that would raise false expectations.

The course of the committee's investigation convinced me otherwise. That did not happen as a result of the contributions of the children's organisations: valuable though those organisations' contributions were, they came from only one perspective. I was convinced when I had heard the views and aspirations of children and young people, who said that their desire and belief was that a children's commissioner would enhance the status of children and young people in Scotland and give them a voice at the highest level.

In fact, in the many discussions that we had with children and young people, it became apparent that their hopes and aspirations were often diametrically opposed to those of the children's organisations that represented them. However, what we all wanted was the appointment of a children's commissioner and so began the process of the nomination that we are asked to confirm today. I welcome the nomination of Kathleen Marshall.

Throughout the process, the children and young people to whom we spoke told us that they wanted someone who would speak up for them and who would act as an advocate on their behalf. They said that they wanted someone who would act without fear or favour of any political party or organisation. In the lifetime of work that she has undertaken to date, Kathleen Marshall has shown that she can act in such a role and that she can fulfil the function to the benefit of our children and young people.

Ultimately, it is for the Scottish Parliament to legislate on all issues that are within our competence. We will have to take cognisance, however, of information that the children's commissioner places before us and we will have to take note and often act upon the recommendations that she will bring to the Parliament in her annual reports and in other reports that she undertakes.

Today is an important day for Scotland's children and young people. I pay tribute to all those who were involved in the campaign for a commissioner, particularly to the Evening Times, which set a trend and took up a campaigning role to ensure that the vulnerable children and young people who could be seen every day on the streets of Glasgow would have a voice in Scotland that would last for generations to come. I pay tribute to the Evening Times and to everyone else. I welcome, and look forward to, working with Kathleen Marshall as the commissioner for children and young people in Scotland in the weeks and months that lie ahead.

I echo the comments that were made by previous speakers, not least those of Karen Gillon. Considerable credit is due to her Education, Culture and Sport Committee for initiating the bill during the first session of Parliament. It is important to reflect on the fact that the appointment is a parliamentary rather than an Executive appointment. In an appointment of this kind, that extremely important aspect will enhance the independence of the appointment.

As a member of the interview panel, I am bound to say that we were extremely impressed by the high quality and number of candidates who came forward for interview. The fact that Kathleen Marshall came out at the head of the queue, so to speak, as the candidate who the panel thought would make the most suitable appointment is a considerable tribute to her reputation and work.

Since I became the convener of the Education Committee at the beginning of this session of Parliament, I have spoken to a number of groups and different organisations that are involved with education and young people. It is notable how strong the demand is among them for the appointment and for the influence that the commissioner can bring to bear.

I heard this morning at a seminar that

"Education is a medium for bringing about change."

The appointment of the children's commissioner is one thing that should bring about change. I suspect that Kathleen Marshall's views will not always be comfortable for Government, for people in authority or for Parliament. However, they are views that we have not in the past heard as effectively as we might have; they will be views that we will need to hear. The commissioner's views will have a considerable power and influence to bring about important, radical and significant changes in the interests of the children of this country. It is extremely important to have a voice at the highest level in that regard.

The range of issues that will be talked about will be vast and, to a certain extent, unpredictable. No doubt, the issues will include those that relate to the Antisocial Behaviour etc (Scotland) Bill, and children's rights including the right of play. The issues will also include the perspectives of youth organisations, to say nothing of the issue of Dungavel.

At the end of the day, our children are our future. The nomination of the children's commissioner in the form of Professor Marshall is a landmark day in the life of Parliament. On behalf of the Liberal Democrat group and the members of the Education Committee, I have great pleasure in welcoming her nomination today.

I warmly welcome Scott Barrie's motion and the nomination of Kathleen Marshall, who is a distinguished academic and expert professional in child law and other matters relating to the law in general. She is in a position to make a thoroughly outstanding contribution. Her book "Children's Rights in the Balance" is a significant work, and her expertise in the field with the Scottish Child Law Centre will prove to be invaluable.

As Robert Brown suggested, the standard of candidates who came before the selection committee was extremely high, and selection by the panel was made exclusively on merit. The children's commissioner will undoubtedly have a pioneering role in Scotland. The only other children's commissioner in Britain is in Wales. England has none, so we are leading the way. Perhaps in a few years' time, when England sees the success of what happens here, it may follow in our wake.

As Margaret Ewing suggested, the appointment is a natural progression from the Children (Scotland) Act 1995. I hope that all parliamentary committees and parliamentarians will give the commissioner their full support in providing a higher profile for children's issues and for general subjects that involve greater responsibility for, and involvement by, children.

I welcome the enthusiastic commitment and dedication that Kathleen Marshall has shown on the subject. She said recently:

"Subject to parliament and the Queen endorsing the appointment, I look forward to working with the children and young people of Scotland to make Scotland a better place for all of us. My first priority will be to set up ways in which children and young people can get their issues on the public agenda."

In other words, she will undoubtedly raise their profile, which I warmly welcome.

I wish Kathleen Marshall every possible good fortune in the task that is before her of supporting the best interests of children, whose interests should be paramount at all times.

It is my pleasure to speak briefly in this historic debate, as others have referred to it, because this is an important stage in the process of appointing within hours Scotland's first children's commissioner.

Like Karen Gillon, I feel that it was a long time ago when, as Sam Galbraith's Deputy Minister for Children and Education, I took part in debates on a children's commissioner in this chamber.

As Parliament is aware, the Executive supported the introduction of the legislation to establish the commissioner for children and young people in Scotland. That legislation provided a fitting end to the first session of Parliament. Like others, I acknowledge the sound work that was done by Karen Gillon and her committee at the time, and also the work of the selection panel, which was mentioned by Scott Barrie.

Parliament agreed that the commissioner should be an independent voice for children and young people in Scotland, therefore the Executive rightly has had no involvement in the appointment process. I should not and will not comment on the individual merits of the candidate who is being nominated, as I cannot prejudge Parliament's decision. That said, if Professor Marshall's appointment is confirmed in the vote, I look forward to working with her to improve the lives of and opportunities for children and young people in Scotland—particularly the lives of the most vulnerable and the most disadvantaged in our society—and to ensuring that we celebrate and recognise the tremendous and positive contributions that children and young people make to Scottish society.

As Parliament is aware, the Executive is committed to improving the lives of our children and young people in a variety of ways that have been the subject of debate in the chamber. However, we are not complacent: more needs to be done to protect and promote the interests of children, and to close the opportunity gaps that exist in our society. I look forward to working constructively with the commissioner in the time to come. The Executive wishes the commissioner well in what will be a challenging, significant and extremely important new role in Scottish public life.

The warm words and the congratulations that every speaker has bestowed on Kathleen Marshall indicate that the selection panel chose the correct nominee for this important yet challenging post. Karen Gillon commented on those who were sceptical about the need for a children's commissioner; those of us who have passionately argued for one for a long time have been vindicated.

The challenges that lie ahead for Kathleen Marshall are immeasurable. She is being entrusted by Parliament to be the independent voice for children and young people in Scotland. Her eking out of that role will mark her in history. It is incumbent upon all of us who voted to pass the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Act 2003 to offer her all the support that we can in her job. Although we may not always agree with her—because that is the nature of such things—I know from my previous work with her that she will bring a great deal of knowledge and expertise to the post and I know that she will fulfil her role to the highest standard.

Members have mentioned that Wales already has a children's commissioner and that England—we hope—will follow soon. It is imperative if we are to ensure that the voices of young people and children are heard adequately that we give all possible support to Kathleen Marshall in the coming months.

Was Mr Barrie, who headed up the interview panel, as impressed as I was by the way in which the panel agreed that children should have input to the selection process, which set firmly the idea that the role of commissioner is about listening to children and their experiences? Does he agree that it is crucial that the children's commissioner—who is to be appointed by Parliament—listen to the views of children in Dungavel, who are being locked up, sometimes for months at a time, and that the commissioner bring to Parliament the real experiences of the innocent children who are placed in that situation?

I appreciate that Linda Fabiani was not on the selection panel, but I assure her and other members that every single candidate at the formal interview was asked a specific question on Dungavel, which was answered. The panel made its decision based on what candidates said in answer to all questions. I cannot tell Linda Fabiani what happened during interviews, but I assure her that that issue was touched on.

Clearly, it would be inappropriate for me to say how the commissioner will tackle her forthcoming job, but Linda Fabiani is right that in entrusting the children's commissioner role to Kathleen Marshall it is important that we give her all the support that we can, whether or not we agree fully with what she does or does not advocate because, at the end of the day, she will be the independent voice for children and young people in Scotland.

The importance of the post and of the procedure that led to the appointment cannot be overestimated. It should be remembered that the Commissioner for Children and Young People (Scotland) Bill was a committee bill; it was not Executive legislation. That shows the power that Parliament and, more important, Parliament's committees have in framing legislation.

I hope that Parliament endorses unanimously the nomination of Kathleen Marshall at decision time.

Before we move on to First Minister's question time I welcome to the VIP gallery the Irish Ambassador Daithi O'Ceallaigh. Fàilte gu Pàrlamaid na h-Alba, a Mhaighstir Ó Ceallaigh. His Excellency is in Parliament to present the priorities of his country's presidency of the European Union at a public meeting in committee room 1 at 1.15, which I urge members to attend.