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Chamber and committees

Plenary,

Meeting date: Thursday, May 7, 2009


Contents


First Ministers Question Time


Engagements

To ask the First Minister what engagements he has planned for the rest of the day. (S3F-1668)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

I have engagements to take forward the Governments programme for Scotland. However, in this week in which we celebrate the 10th anniversary of the first elections to the Parliament, all members, regardless of their political perspective, should spend at least some time considering and taking satisfaction from the advent of an institution that has changed life in our country fundamentally and for the better.

Iain Gray:

We in the Labour Party echo those words of celebration of the 10-year anniversary of the institution. However, the First Minister and his Cabinet also found time this week to slap themselves on the back for their mid-term report. They said that it was

"a fantastic record of policy delivery".

We can picture the scene: "Well done, John Swinney; great job, Kenny MacAskill; great job, Fiona Hyslop—terrific job." Did they find time to think about the 1,000 teachers who have been cut from our schools, the 1,000 apprentices who have been made redundant and who are still waiting for their training guarantee or the 20,000 construction workers who are on the dole because of the First Ministers failure to build schools and hospitals? Some of those people might be watching today, because they are certainly not at work. Can the First Minister look them in the eye and tell them how well he is doing?

The First Minister:

That is the sort of question that probably sounded all right when Iain Gray was rehearsing it with Andy Kerr earlier on. In Iain Grays accolades of individual ministers in the Government, which are much appreciated, he forgot the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, whose work, not least on the current flu outbreak, has been exceptional. I thank Iain Gray for his commendations of the Governments work, but he will excuse me if I am even more satisfied with the overwhelming evidence from the opinion polls that the people of Scotland back the Scottish National Party Government.

Iain Gray:

Was that the answer? I have the First Ministers list of so-called achievements. It probably looked good when he was writing it down, but it does not bear much examination. Number 30 states that the Government has "Reviewed modern apprenticeship" programmes—he means that he cut them. I like number 41, which states, "Developed North Sea super-grid". How did I miss that? Where is he hiding it—in the basement of Bute house? Not so much wired to Norway—more like wired to the moon. Number 28 states that the Scottish Futures Trust has been "achieved". Now he really is having a laugh at our expense. In two years, the SFT has delivered two meetings, one e-mail and not a single school or hospital. Does the First Minister really consider the Scottish Futures Trust to be an achievement?

The First Minister:

The North Sea grid and the achievements of the SNP Government are hugely important for Scotland. I have the list of 50 commitments that the Government has already met or exceeded in our first two years in office. I do not have time to address all 50, but let us try the first five: the council tax freeze in Scotland for two years in a row; the small business bonus, which is vital for employment in our communities; the abolition of tolls on the Forth and Tay bridges; the reversal of the decision to close the accident and emergency departments at Monklands and Ayr hospitals—it is a good job that we did not downgrade Monklands in light of recent events; and the delivery of funding for 1,000 more police officers on the streets of Scotland. I would like to go on to list the other 45 commitments, but we will make them available in the Scottish Parliament information centre. Perhaps the Labour Party should wonder why, in eight long, miserable years in government, it did not manage to achieve any one of those 50 commitments made by the Scottish National Party.

Iain Gray:

The First Minister missed out the first-time buyers without their £2,000; the students with the debt that the SNP promised to ditch; the carers who are still waiting for their funding; and the children in classes whose size the SNP promised to reduce. He did not mention the teachers on the dole or the pensioners means tested out of the central heating programme. He did not mention his local income tax that has just been ditched. So many promises broken in so little time; I do not have time to go through them all. Is that not why one of our papers today asks of the First Ministers record whether it has been

"just all big talk from a wee man"?

The First Minister:

I must say that I am delighted with the description of my size—it is very comforting indeed. On the local income tax, how can Iain Gray complain about the non-implementation of local income tax when he kept voting against it? I have to confess to one other aspect of our manifesto that we have not been able to achieve, unlike the 50 commitments that have been achieved in two years. It was the Governments ambition to cancel the Edinburgh trams project and invest that money in capital infrastructure in the capital city and throughout Scotland. I wonder whether anybody in the Parliament or on the Labour benches—even Iain Gray—thinks that they were wise to combine with the Tories and Liberal party to foist that project on the people of Scotland. Is there a single person who believes that?

Of course, Iain Gray has something to celebrate too. It is not just that he is unable to quarrel with or question the 50 commitments met by the Government; he is unable to explain why he is the first Scottish Labour leader in history to be less popular, not than an SNP leader, but than the Tory leader in Scotland.

There are two signs of desperation in politics. [Interruption.]

Order.

Iain Gray:

One sign of desperation is to tell the electorate lies in order to get their votes; that is what local income tax is about. The second is when the First Minister is reduced to reading out poll results, especially when he bought and paid for the polls.

Let us go back to what really matters to the people of Scotland. The Scottish Building Federation says of the achievement that is the Scottish Futures Trust that it has destroyed 20,000 jobs. Ron Hewitt of the Edinburgh Chamber of Commerce called it a "scandal" and said that it could cost another 15,000 jobs. Labour is doing all that it can: 15,000 jobs for young Scots in the budget package and, yesterday, 11,000 jobs secured and 1,000 more created on the Clyde. Thanks to the First Ministers Futures Trust, he is destroying Scottish jobs faster than Margaret Thatcher did 30 years ago. Does he really think that that is something to be proud of?

The First Minister:

Employment is a serious issue. Ten years ago, unemployment in Scotland was 25 per cent higher than the United Kingdom average, as indeed it was for most of the post-war period. One of the things that we should be satisfied about is that, although we are in a recession and in difficult times at present, unemployment in Scotland is now 25 per cent below the UK average. Iain Gray complains about our firm action to accelerate the economy in Scotland and to create jobs through our plans. He should look south of the border and wonder why the plans there are not being quite as successful.

Iain Gray talks about cuts. Is he the last man in Scotland still in denial about the £500 million of Labour cuts coming next year? Is Andy Kerr still in denial about the Labour Partys own economist warning of the real-terms cuts in Scottish public spending?

The threat to Scottish jobs does not come from an SNP Government that is not just popular in one poll but popular in all polls. It does not come from the recovery plan generating tens of thousands of jobs in Scotland. The threat to Scottish jobs and unemployment comes, as Glasgow City Council confirmed this week, from the Westminster cuts from a Labour Government—£500 million planned for next year and real-terms cuts in public spending planned for the next few years.

The fortunate thing is that not just in opinion polls but in elections the people of Scotland have the opportunity to decide to have economic powers for this Parliament and independence for this country.


Secretary of State for Scotland (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister when he will next meet the Secretary of State for Scotland. (S3F-1669)

I have no plans to meet the secretary of state in the near future, but a meeting is being arranged in a few weeks time.

Annabel Goldie:

There are few certainties in life, but we have just been reminded forcibly of one this morning: a First Minister who is desperate to be liked. It is also becoming very clear that he does not have the guts to take tough decisions. The Parliaments Finance Committee took evidence last week that showed that Labours mishandling of the economy could mean massive long-term cuts to the Scottish budget. The First Minister says—he repeated it this morning—that Labours squeeze on the Scottish budget will be £500 million from next April. If that is the case, how is he going to tighten his belt—small or otherwise? What is he going to cut, or does he not have the courage to tell us?

The First Minister:

As Annabel Goldie well knows because she supported the proposal, we set up a process in the budget debate to examine public spending in Scotland and invited contributions from the other parties to face that reality. She can be absolutely certain that that will be done in an orderly manner.

Annabel Goldie is right of course to point to the £500 million of cuts from the Labour Party. What she neglects to mention is that now, apparently, the Conservative party plans exactly the same perspective. We have cuts to the left of me, cuts to the right of me, or an alternative future with the Scottish National Party and real powers for this Parliament.

Annabel Goldie:

Let us be clear that the Labour Party has created this horrific mess. The Conservatives, when elected to government, will have to deal with the consequences of that horrific mess, and will have the courage to do that. The First Minister does not have the bottle to deal with the horrific mess.

The Government is hitting the buffers. On education, the First Ministers Minister for Schools and Skills, Keith Brown—in his Hazel Blears moment—said that the Government must do better. On justice, as the headline in The Sun said this week, the SNP is the criminals best friend. On taxpayers money, even the First Ministers own department is way short of hitting its efficiency targets. What kind of political leadership is that? Once again, we need an unpalatable truth. What is the SNP going to cut—or, in the fantasy land of the First Minister, is he denying that any cuts are required?

The First Minister:

The Governments efficiency targets of 2 per cent across departments are being met; they have been met over the past two years; and they will continue to be met. There is a major difference between the Governments efficiency savings and cuts by the Labour Party and the Conservative party: the Governments efficiency savings are reinvested in public services and local councils across Scotland.

The Governments economic record, in terms of the competence and the flair displayed by my colleague Mr Swinney, is second to none. We will meet any funding situation from whatever Westminster Government with the competence that we have shown over the past two years, and we will do that in the interests of the Scottish people. That will not prevent us from pointing out, in elections that are coming up in the next few weeks or months, that the perspective, whether from a Labour Government at Westminster or from a Tory Government at Westminster, is one of long and severe cuts in public spending and vital services across Scotland. That is why there has to be a real political choice between the cuts of the Westminster parties, and investment and economic power from the SNP.


Cabinet (Meetings)

To ask the First Minister what issues will be discussed at the next meeting of the Cabinet. (S3F-1670)

The next meeting of the Cabinet will discuss issues of importance to the people of Scotland.

Tavish Scott:

This week, the First Minister received a prisoner transfer request from the Libyan Government. I ask him where he stands on the statement that he made in June 2007, in which he said:

"The question of prisoner transfer is particularly important, not least in relation to the case of Mr Al Megrahi, the Libyan who was convicted in a Scottish court of the Lockerbie bombing".

He went on to say:

"the Scottish law officers and others, including the secretary-general of the United Nations, gave assurances that any sentence that was imposed would be served in Scotland."—[Official Report, 7 June 2007; c 586.]

Does he stand by that statement, which he made as First Minister?

The First Minister:

Tavish Scott will understand that nothing that I say should be taken to prejudice decisions that the Scottish Government will have to take on the prisoner transfer agreement or anything else. I point out to him, since we are looking into history, that he is absolutely right: in June 2007, I came to the Parliament with an emergency statement to warn of the implications of the memorandum of understanding that was agreed between the then Prime Minister and Colonel Gaddafi.

Some people in this Parliament mistakenly believed—I see that Lord Foulkes is nodding—that the memorandum of understanding would not affect the case of Mr Al Megrahi. As we now know, in late 2007, the Westminster Government, through the then Lord Chancellor, Jack Straw, said that it would try to negotiate on the face of the prisoner transfer agreement an exclusion for anybody connected with the Lockerbie atrocity. That did not happen, unfortunately, and we are now in a position in which the PTA was agreed and finalised last week, and an application for prisoner transfer has been made.

Throughout this process, I have said that, in everything that we do as a Government, we will uphold the integrity of the Scottish judicial system. I repeat that today, and I also say that the decision that is made by the Cabinet Secretary for Justice will be made not on economic or political grounds, but on judicial grounds, and judicial grounds alone.

Tavish Scott:

That is as it should be, but I agree with the secretary-general of the United Nations and the Scottish law officers: Al Megrahi should serve his sentence in Scotland. The First Minister has announced today that he will reopen and revisit the assurance that was given by the secretary-general of the UN, yet elsewhere SNP members are saying that the transfer request is simply a conspiracy to prevent the criminal appeal from being heard in full.

Should the First Minister not end that uncertainty and prevent the matter from dragging on? Why does he not today reassert the position and the assurances that he voiced in June 2007, and ensure that the sentence that has been imposed is served?

The First Minister:

Is Tavish Scott seriously suggesting that if a prisoner transfer request is made, it should not receive proper consideration in terms of due process? That is an absolutely extraordinary thing to say.

We are in a position in which a prisoner transfer agreement has been negotiated between the United Kingdom Government and the Libyan Government. A request has been made, and we are duty bound to consider that request properly and fully, in line with the terms of the prisoner transfer agreement.

I have no doubt—and I maintain the position—that it would have been greatly to be preferred if the judicial processes of Scotland were allowed to take their course. I have absolutely no doubt about that whatsoever, for a whole range of reasons. However, if a PTA application is made, it must of course be properly considered by the justice secretary on advice from Scottish Government justice and other officials. That will be done, and nothing that I say to Tavish Scott in this Parliament or elsewhere can be taken to prejudice that decision, which will be made on judicial grounds, and judicial grounds alone.

I will take a constituency question from Elaine Smith.

Elaine Smith (Coatbridge and Chryston) (Lab):

What support can the First Ministers Government offer the total workforce of 57 people at Glen Shaw Knitwear—formerly Mackinnons—in Coatbridge, who were dismissed in an appalling way last week, with no prior notice or consultation?

Does the First Minister agree in general that Governments of whatever political persuasion should not simply pander to a pro-business agenda in which greedy companies can make excessive profits at the expense of the working class?

The First Minister:

As in all situations of redundancy, this Government will give whatever support we can to the employees involved. If the constituency member wishes to pursue the matter with the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth, we can arrange for that to be done.

As the member will know, we have doubled the resources that are available for intervention and redundancy situations to enable us to reskill workers and do our utmost to find every workforce that is affected by the current recession alternative employment if at all possible.


Economic Support

To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking to support jobs and economic recovery. (S3F-1672)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The economic recovery plan is focused on jobs, skills and investment in the industries of the future, and we are working hard to ensure that Scotland weathers the current economic storm and recovers strongly.

For example, our plans to accelerate capital spending protect thousands of construction jobs, and we are working with social partners on our plans for a Scottish investment bank, which have been warmly welcomed by the Scottish Trades Union Congress and others. The Parliament should also be aware of the recent announcements on European funding—I am sure that those are warmly welcomed throughout the chamber—which will support 8,000 jobs in Scotland and 75,000 new training opportunities.

Brian Adam:

I welcome the action that is being taken by the Scottish Government, but does the First Minister agree that, although such local stimulus is welcome, it will be badly affected by the decision of the United Kingdom Government to remove resources from investment in jobs by cutting £500 million from Scotlands budget? That is in stark contrast to the action of the Australian state of Victoria, which is supporting its population of 5 million with an £8 billion fiscal stimulus, including resources that are being raised through borrowing powers. What impact will the UK cuts have on jobs in Aberdeen and the north-east?

The First Minister:

I welcome the question, because it gives us an opportunity to put these matters into stark contrast. As I said, the European funding, which I know is welcomed throughout the chamber, will help the creation of 8,000 jobs throughout the country. Six thousand jobs are supported by the acceleration of capital investment. The new-build plan for local authority housing—this Administration is actually building council houses in Scotland—will create 3,000 jobs. All those jobs are valuable and add to a considerable total of tens of thousands of jobs that will be supported by this Administrations recovery plan.

Is it not interesting that, in contrast to that recovery plan, which is designed to fight the recession and lead this country out of it as quickly as possible, in a single afternoon last week, by confirming the £500 million of cuts in the Scottish economy next year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer removed, with a stroke of his pen, 9,000 jobs from the Scottish economy? What a contrast between job creation by the Scottish National Party Government and job destruction by the Labour Party at Westminster.

Andy Kerr (East Kilbride) (Lab):

What a contrast indeed, between truth and fiction around the Scottish budget. Would the First Minister care to agree with his own director general of finance that the Scottish budget will grow by 1.3 per cent next year, in the teeth of this recession? Does he agree with the fiscal stimulus measure of £2 billion for the Scottish economy, which has already been put in by the UK Government, and, of course, the £50 billion that has been put in place to save Scottish workers in our banks and leave Scottish mortgage payers in homes throughout Scotland?

The First Minister:

Both the red book and the Scottish Governments director general of finance indicated that, because of Labours cuts, there will be less spending in the Scottish economy next year in comparison with this year, in the teeth of a recession. That is in contrast not just with what is happening in Australia but with what is happening in President Obamas America, where, next year, there will be counter-recessionary fiscal stimulus in the economy. Will Labour finally get its head around the reality that, in addition to the £500 million of cuts, which Andy Kerr said that he could not calculate even up to the last moment, there is the threat of a real-terms reduction in public spending year on year in the red book, which was also confirmed at the start of this session of Parliament by Labours own former economist, Mr John McLaren? Labour Party front benchers that are reduced to attacking their own economist are no semblance of authority for Scotlands future. We have investment and jobs from the SNP, but cuts in public services from the Labour Party.

The Presiding Officer:

Before we come to question 5, I point out that Mr Al Megrahi has an active appeal against his conviction. Where he serves his sentence is not under appeal, but whether he is guilty of the crime is sub judice and, therefore, supplementary questions should not stray on to the subject of the appeal itself—whether the evidence or the accuseds guilt or innocence—as that would be in breach of rule 7.5.1 of standing orders.


Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi

To ask the First Minister what consideration the Scottish Government has given to the possible transfer of Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi to a prison in Libya. (S3F-1678)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The United Kingdom and Libyan Governments ratified a prisoner transfer agreement on Wednesday 29 April 2009. An application for prisoner transfer has now been received from the Libyan authorities on behalf of Mr Al Megrahi. The application will be considered according to the agreement, relevant legislation and the merits of the individual case.

Any decision on the transfer of prisoners who are held in Scotland is for the Scottish ministers. In practice, the Cabinet Secretary for Justice makes the decision on any prisoner transfer request. That emphasises our point that, whatever decisions are made elsewhere, our decisions will be made on judicial grounds, not economic or political ones.

Elaine Murray:

On 2 February 2008, the First Minister told the BBC news:

"it would be appropriate if anyone connected with the Lockerbie atrocity was excluded specifically from any prisoner transfer agreement."

That sentiment was repeated by a spokesman for the First Minister on 16 February 2008.

On 15 January this year, the First Minister advised the Parliament that he believed that it was critical that the integrity of the Scottish judicial system be upheld, and he has repeated that today. His views on the matter seem clear. Do those statements indicate that the Scottish ministers had predetermined their response to a request from the Libyan Government? If so, would that enable the Libyans to seek judicial review if the request was turned down?

The First Minister:

For obvious reasons, it is not possible to predetermine a response before a prisoner transfer agreement is in place. The warnings that we gave in the statements that I made in June 2007 in the Parliament, and in the attempt—which, initially, seemed successful—to persuade the United Kingdom Government to exclude from the face of the prisoner transfer agreement people connected with the Lockerbie bombing, have been amply demonstrated in what has come to pass.

Elaine Murray should look very carefully at the record. Warnings were given in June 2007 about the agreement that was made by Mr Blair and President Gaddafi. After the talks with Jack Straw, the new Lord Chancellor, Mr Straw gave an undertaking to seek to exclude people connected with Lockerbie from the face of the agreement. Then there was the information last year that that had not proved possible. Now we have the conclusion of the PTA between the UK and Libyan Governments. We were absolutely right—demonstrably right—to warn of the possible consequences of the sequence of events that was set in place in June 2007, just as we are absolutely duty bound to consider a prisoner transfer request on its merits, given the relevant legislation. There can be no prejudging of that request before such a PTA comes into place.

David McLetchie (Edinburgh Pentlands) (Con):

Will the First Minister clarify the process? He has said several times this morning—most recently in response to Elaine Murrays question—that, in practice, the decision on the request will be taken by Mr MacAskill as Cabinet Secretary for Justice. Members will be aware that The Scotsman newspaper suggested this morning that the decision would be taken by the First Minister and would be the subject of a discussion in the Cabinet. Will he confirm whether that is correct?

The First Minister:

The decision will be made by Mr MacAskill as Cabinet Secretary for Justice. That is the right thing to do, because it emphasises that we are making a decision on judicial grounds and no other. Given Mr McLetchies history and mine, it would be unwise to believe everything that is reported, even in The Scotsman.

Christine Grahame (South of Scotland) (SNP):

Does the First Minister agree, further to all his answers, that the prisoner transfer agreement that Tony Blair conjured up in the desert has simply muddied the waters? Does he also agree that, in the interest of the victims relatives—those who believe that Mr Al Megrahi is guilty and those who believe that he is innocent—due process through the Scottish courts is preferable, delivering justice that we all wish to see after 20 long years?

The First Minister:

Yes, I agree with that. I think that due process—I have made the point a number of times—is to be preferred to any other process, and Christine Grahame is perfectly right to point to that.

In terms of the agreement back in June 2007, I do not think I could have been clearer or warned this Parliament more clearly of the potential implications of the then Prime Minister going down that particular route. However, we are now faced with a decision, and we have to take that decision on proper judicial grounds, because to do anything else would open us to some of the questions that some members asked about earlier. That is why we will make this decision on judicial grounds. We will give it the proper consideration, and our decision will be made judicially; it will not be made on any other grounds, such as economic or political grounds.


Departmental Expenditure Limit

6. Murdo Fraser (Mid Scotland and Fife) (Con):

To ask the First Minister what action the Scottish Government is taking in response to research by the Centre for Public Policy for Regions, which predicts that in real terms the Scottish Governments departmental expenditure limit will be between £2.1 billion and £3.8 billion lower in 2013-14 than in 2009-10. (S3F-1685)

The First Minister (Alex Salmond):

The member is right: this is a serious issue for all of us, with cuts next year of £500 million threatening our actions to support economic recovery and putting at risk 9,000 jobs in Scotland.

As we agreed during the budget process, the Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Sustainable Growth will shortly meet the finance spokesmen from the other parties to look at future budget issues. I am sure that the member would not want me to pre-empt that discussion today.

Of course, in the end—and as it should be—it will be up to the people of Scotland at the ballot box to decide what priority they place on public expenditure and what areas of public expenditure they would like to be forthcoming.

Murdo Fraser:

I am sure that the First Minister agrees that the blame for this sorry state of affairs rests firmly and solely at the door of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling for their mismanagement of the British finances. However, given that we know that the cuts are coming, can the First Minister commit to trying his hardest to preserve front-line services and cut out extraneous expenditure in the Scottish Governments budget? Will he commit to scrapping free prescription charges for people who, like him, can well afford to pay for them? Will he agree to mutualise Scottish Water and free up millions of pounds that could be spent elsewhere? Will he cut back on the army of Government spin doctors and special advisers, who are unnecessary? Will he commit to scrapping the Scottish National Partys futile and unwanted referendum?

The First Minister:

As I remember, the last time that Murdo Fraser asked me about Scottish Water—it was one of the Conservatives, anyway—I had to point out that, under any criteria, it is one of the best-performing organisations in Scotland, with lower charges than those that prevail south of the border. If Murdo Fraser is saying that we should have lower investment in and higher charges from Scottish Water, I do not think that he will find much support for his proposition.

Perhaps I have been too hard on the Conservative party—who knows? No, perhaps not. I said earlier that there were £500 million of cuts on offer from Labour and from the Conservatives. However, I have been listening very carefully to some of David Camerons comments over the past few days and I have seen a chink of light in what he says with regard to both the Trident missile system and identity cards. I hope that, whether in the talks with Mr Swinney or elsewhere—perhaps even in talks with the people of Scotland—the Conservative party, on the road to Damascus, will say that it prefers investment in health, education and jobs in Scotland to waste and expenditure on a new nuclear programme and prestige projects such as identity cards.

We will have a very brief final question from Mike Rumbles.

Mike Rumbles (West Aberdeenshire and Kincardine) (LD):

Is not the First Minister duty bound, in this tight monetary situation, to cut out the waste, as has already been suggested to him? There is huge waste in the Scottish Executives budget. Free school meals for rich kids and the introduction of the beaver in Argyll all cost money.

The beaver?

Yes. It is a joke, is it not?

Very briefly, please.

Most wasteful of all is the money that is being spent on the so-called national conversation and the independence referendum, which the First Minister knows will not survive a vote in this Parliament—it is a complete waste of money.

The First Minister:

As I recall, in his leadership campaign, Mike Rumbles was in favour of a referendum—or at least he did not want to oppose it. [Interruption.] I have been assaulted with a paper clip! Now we know the Liberal Democrat recipe for Scotlands recovery from recession: we have to sacrifice the beaver! [Laughter.] If that is not bad enough, the plan to save the beaver actually started in the term of office of the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats.

What a joke.

Mike Rumbles says "What a joke." There is nothing like self-analysis in this Parliament. [Laughter.]

That concludes First Ministers question time—

Jack McConnell (Motherwell and Wishaw) (Lab):

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I realise that it was hard to hear over the noise, but those of us who listened carefully to the exchange on question 5 distinctly heard Christine Grahame ask the First Minister whether he felt that due process through the courts should be followed in the case of the convicted Lockerbie bomber. The First Minister might not have heard the question entirely clearly—I understand that sometimes, when sitting in the First Ministers chair, it is possible to misunderstand part of the question—because, in his answer, he agreed with that part of the question. That would imply that due process through the courts for the appeal should follow, rather than prisoner transfer. That could be seen to prejudge the decision that must be made by Mr MacAskill. I raise this point of order simply to highlight that possible discrepancy so that the First Minister might be given an opportunity later this afternoon to make it clear that he did not mean to give out that intention, which is clearly what we understood listening up here in the back row.

The Presiding Officer:

One thing on which I would agree with Mr McConnell at this stage is that there was quite a lot of noise in the chamber. I, too, did not entirely pick up the question. If I may, I will look at the matter and come back to the chamber later after considering it.

Margo MacDonald (Lothians) (Ind):

On a point of order, Presiding Officer. I do not wish to detract from the point of order that Jack McConnell has outlined, but can you rule whether a First Minister, or any other member of the Parliament, can lie? The First Minister was accused of lying today.

There is no such concept in this Parliament. The word "lie" does not come into it. As members know, they may not accuse other members of lying.

Meeting suspended until 14:15.

On resuming—