Lapwing Lodge
The final item of business is a members' business debate on motion S2M-2225, in the name of Bruce McFee, on Renfrew and Inverclyde scout association's Lapwing Lodge. The debate will be concluded without any question being put. Now that the last members who were leaving the chamber have gone through the door, I call Bruce McFee to open the debate.
Motion debated,
That the Parliament recognises the good works carried out by voluntary organisations in Scotland; notes that Renfrew and Inverclyde Scout Association, supported by East Renfrewshire Council, has made a funding application to the Scottish Rural Partnership Fund – Local Capital Grants Scheme for the modernisation of facilities at Lapwing Lodge, Renfrewshire, to increase the flexibility of the facility and allow a wider range of groups to access Lapwing, beyond the 40% usage currently enjoyed by community groups, and to ensure the long-term sustainability of this outdoor centre for the next 25 years and beyond; recognises the value of such centres, and consequently wishes Renfrew and Inverclyde Scout Association every success in its funding application.
I take the opportunity to thank all those who signed my motion and who have turned out for the debate. More important, I thank the many thousands of people throughout Scotland who give up their time and spend their money to provide services in our voluntary sector.
"Volunteering represents a huge investment of time, energy and commitment by individuals who want to improve the lives of those around them, close the opportunity gap and help make their communities a better place.
Most importantly, volunteering inspires the volunteers of tomorrow.
The young people who will come behind you,
They will see the work you do.
They will witness and benefit from the difference you make.
They are our future community leaders and you are their role models."
Those are not my words, but the words of Jack McConnell during volunteers week in June 2002.
I am sure that members will forgive me if I devote most of my time to Renfrew and Inverclyde scouts and to the facility at Lapwing Lodge, which was known locally for many years as the Peesweep. Lapwing Lodge is a former tuberculosis hospital that was built for Coats of Paisley in about 1910. It was built as a fresh-air hospital, which even a short visit to the 25 acres that surround the buildings or a tour inside will make more than obvious. I extend an invitation from Renfrew and Inverclyde scouts to the minister to visit Lapwing Lodge, if he has the time to do so.
The scouts have used the grounds since the early 1960s and they took out a 25-year lease in 1963. In 1988, they purchased outright the buildings and grounds. They are a valuable resource that the scouts paid for and the community uses. The scouts also lease and maintain the adjoining Caplaw dam, where a range of water sports is provided. That is another valuable resource that the scouts pay for and the community uses.
Since 1988, about £500,000 has been spent on improving, repairing and maintaining Lapwing Lodge and its surrounds. With the exception of a one-off grant of £100,000 from the former Strathclyde Regional Council, that funding has been a further resource that the scouts pay for and the community uses.
In the 1960s, the facility could correctly have been described as a scout venue, but the situation has changed dramatically, to the extent that about 40 per cent of all stays are by community groups. The growth in that figure is not an accident and was achieved by Lapwing's present management.
To allow that figure to grow further and to make the facility more attractive to other disadvantaged groups in our community, Lapwing Lodge requires investment. It requires extra activity areas, renovated kitchens and improved and accessible toilet facilities. The available accommodation needs to be broken into smaller units to adapt to community groups' demands for small and secure accommodation facilities, particularly on weekdays. Without the necessary changes, many groups will be deprived of the use of this wonderful facility.
Last year, Renfrew and Inverclyde scout association applied for Scottish rural partnership funding to help with the cost of some of those works. The application was facilitated by East Renfrewshire Council and supported by Renfrewshire and Inverclyde Councils. They were turned down due to the project being
"purely a scout group"
and because
"The centre is not used by a broad range of community groups."
The centre is used by a broad range of community groups involving a wide age range of participants. There are uniformed organisations, church groups, the Red Cross, youth groups, youth services and special educational needs groups. There are theatre groups and the Salvation Army. It is used by the James Watt College of Further and Higher Education and the Disability Resource Centre at Love Street in Paisley. Of course, it is also used by local authorities and community groups from the six adjacent local authorities. Even HM Customs and Excise and Strathclyde police's dog branch use the centre. From six-year-olds to old age pensioners, they have all been to Lapwing Lodge.
Lapwing Lodge is not exclusively a scout venue. It is not even a venue for the exclusive use of uniformed organisations. There are community groups on the management board of Lapwing Lodge. It is a true community facility that wishes to increase further its use by the community but it has been held back through lack of funding. Much has been heard over the years on television, in newspapers and in the chamber about youth crime and the involvement of a minority of youths in antisocial behaviour. Millions of pounds are spent every year to repair the results of that antisocial behaviour and millions more are spent on trying to provide diversionary activities and to give children recreational activities and better alternatives. This is a facility that does exactly that.
The volunteers who run Lapwing Lodge want to maintain and improve it for all in our community. They have proposed a visionary but realistic plan to secure its future for the next 25 years. They have worked hard to secure their share of the cash. Despite their vision and commitment and all that hard work over many decades, Lapwing Lodge's future is under threat. Make no mistake about it: without considerable investment, Lapwing Lodge will in the next few years reach a point at which it will be unable to continue.
On Community Service Volunteers make a difference day, the First Minister said:
"Volunteering is central to our vision of a Scotland with a stronger sense of `society'. I want volunteers to be welcomed and valued wherever they make a contribution, and more people to be encouraged to volunteer."
I agree with that. We have listened to the fine words. It is now time to turn that rhetoric into reality. I hope that, in the coming days and weeks, the minister will be able to show—not just with warm words, but with cold hard cash—that the Parliament values the contribution made by the organisation.
I thank Bruce McFee for lodging the motion. I was pleased to sign it and I wish the bid from Lapwing Lodge well.
I do not want to start on an overly critical note, but I worried when I saw what had been drawn for members' business and I wondered about the benefits of such a debate. I know that the motion has been lodged with the best of intentions, but I worry that it might be counterproductive. I will wait to see what the minister has to say, but he has to assess all bids impartially and fairly and I cannot imagine that he will be in a position to comment in any way. I know that I would be aggrieved if a bid from another area of Scotland were approved and I felt that that was in response to political pressure rather than the bid being judged on its merits.
Just as I hope that the minister will listen impartially to the arguments, I hope that he will not hold this debate against what I believe is a very strong bid indeed. Lapwing Lodge is in my constituency, although it is used by people from all over Renfrewshire and beyond and not predominantly by residents of East Renfrewshire.
Lapwing Lodge was a former sanatorium and it is now owned by Renfrewshire and Inverclyde scouts as a camping and outdoor centre for scouts, and for many other voluntary and youth groups. Although the sums of money involved in keeping the centre going as a viable concern and upgrading it so that it can be sustained are substantial, it is not a luxury facility—far from it. It is run by volunteers for volunteers. Like many outdoor centres in Scotland, camping at Lapwing in good weather must be a delight, but for much of the rest of the time it would probably leave people with a sense of achievement as much as unadulterated pleasure.
I stayed in campsites in France last summer. Lapwing is not that sort of facility. I do not say that to put people off—far from it—but to give members and the minister an appreciation of the sort of facility it provides. It is for people who want to experience the outdoors and who enjoy building the sense of self-reliance, independence and community spirit that camping and scouting lend themselves to.
Lapwing is run by volunteers who give up a great deal of their time for the benefit of others. On that note, I welcome Bill McCallum and, I think, Jerry to the public gallery today and thank them for publicising the work of Lapwing Lodge.
Not only scouts are able to use Lapwing: the lodge is reaching out to the wider community to ensure that more local organisations are aware of the facility on their doorstep. That is an important point because meeting the users criteria to qualify for Executive or national lottery support has clearly been a difficulty for Lapwing. That should not be the case. It is clear that Lapwing runs on a break-even basis and that users come from throughout the community. They are certainly not from predominantly better-off sections of society. I challenge any member to say that Lapwing is not exactly the kind of site and organisation that the Government and the Parliament would wish to support, but the volunteers behind the centre appear to have been stymied at every turn in applying for a grant from the lottery or national Government.
There is an issue here not so much for the minister as for the lottery administrators. Uniformed organisations make a huge contribution to our society, to our young people's sense of citizenship, to their involvement with those around them and, as I have already suggested, in building self-reliance and self-confidence. In this case, the volunteers have been left with a sense of grievance that other less established, more transient organisations qualify for funding when the scouts and others sometimes struggle to get by.
East Renfrewshire Council has been very supportive. If it is successful in its application to the rural partnership fund, that council is willing to provide further funds. That is both a tribute to my colleagues on East Renfrewshire Council and to the strength of the bid from Lapwing.
I only hope that whatever the minister says this evening, he will look at the Lapwing bid fairly and objectively. I am sure that he will identify its clear merits. As he knows, I wrote to him to give the project my endorsement. I also hope that he will look at the situation that faces local scouts organisations such as that in Renfrewshire and Inverclyde, with a view to clarifying the criteria that they have to satisfy in applying for grant support.
On that note, I am happy to endorse Bruce McFee's motion and to wish Lapwing Lodge well in its application.
I, too, welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate and add my voice to the support for voluntary organisations in Scotland. I hope that our visitors in the public gallery this evening will take some succour from the record of the Parliament in being prepared to speak up for the voluntary sector and, in fairness to the Executive, doing so with some positive responses. It is only right that we acknowledge that.
I declare a note of interest with reference to scouting and guiding in Scotland—I am an ambassador for the guides and I had the pleasure of receiving the hospitality of the Scout Association at its Burns supper this year when I replied to a toast to the lassies.
I too defer to and am aware of the sensitivity of the minister's position. It is only right to acknowledge that: it would be inappropriate to expect the minister to make any specific commitment this evening. However, I hope that the debate will provide an opportunity for those of us who, like Bruce McFee, are aware of what our scouting movement achieves in the Renfrewshire area, and particularly what the Lapwing Lodge facility provides in the pursuit of that endeavour, to tease out some issues that the minister will find informative.
Bruce McFee referred to the exemplary definition of voluntary activity given by the First Minister on 7 June 2002. It is against that encouraging backdrop that I make the following observations. Where we have such a reservoir of good will, commitment and community public-spiritedness as we find among those who work with our scouts, the Scottish Executive's providing some help would be a gilt-edged investment: the Scottish Executive would be adding to a proven investment of worth and achievement.
I am also aware, from meetings with representatives of the Scout Association in the Renfrew and Inverclyde area and from a voluminous exchange of correspondence with Mr McCallum, who is a veritable latter-day Pepys when it comes to communicating with members of the Scottish Parliament and keeping them aware of the details, that there is genuine frustration about how resource can be accessed for such worthy projects as Lapwing Lodge in Renfrewshire.
I met officials from the national lottery community fund in Glasgow. It appears that there is a certain rigidity in how lottery funding is to be made available, which has the very undesirable consequence that excellent projects such as the modernisation and expansion of the facilities at Lapwing Lodge might not have a clear application path to follow.
The Scottish rural partnership fund, which is responsible for the local capital grants scheme, is a desirable and necessary source of provision, but whether it offers the best way of dealing with funding for a volunteer community project is perhaps another matter. However, it seems to be the only game in town. I know from parliamentary questions and correspondence with the minister and his predecessor that ministers are confronted with genuine technical difficulties. In June, I received a letter from Mr Allan Wilson in which he said, in reference to an unsuccessful application for help:
"Projects which are solely or predominantly for the benefit of one organisation or group within a community, e.g. young people or older people, are not eligible for LCGS funding."
I reiterate the point that Bruce McFee made about the organisations other than the Scout Association that use Lapwing Lodge. According to the information that I have, 22 uniformed organisations, 56 community organisations and seven international organisations use the facility. I hope that those figures give the Executive a measure of comfort that the facility is not supported just by a unilateral, self-interested, small group of people who seek money to pursue a particular pet scheme. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I urge the Executive to demonstrate what I know to be its high regard for an organisation such as the Scout Association and to give a fair wind to assisting with capital funding for the project. In doing so, the Executive would not only take forward a very important community facility but send out the strongest possible message of support and encouragement to the dedicated people who make scouting the tremendous advertisement that it is for the development and guidance of young people. Such an approach would also give substance to the First Minister's proclamation of 7 June 2002. I support Mr McFee's motion.
I too welcome the debate and I congratulate Bruce McFee on securing it. I was pleased to sign the motion.
As Bruce McFee and others said, Lapwing Lodge—or Peesweep, as it is known—is an excellent outdoor facility that serves many people in the Renfrewshire area. I have perhaps special affection for a building that was built by Coats in 1910, because my office in Paisley is also in a former mill building. However, there is another reason for me to have some affection for Peesweep. Although the facility has been owned by the Scout Association for 40 years, I am sad to say that 30 years ago, when I was a Bishopton guide, Peesweep was a facility only for scouts and not for the local girl guides. I will not be so indelicate as to inquire whether the scouts owned the facility when Annabel Goldie was a Bishopton guide, although I had rather hoped that she would enlighten us.
Will the member take an intervention?
I would be delighted to do so.
In the interests of accuracy, I confess with some shame that I have never been a Bishopton guide, or any other kind of guide.
As ever, Annabel Goldie is a model of candour. As a patrol leader of the swallows and a guiding ambassador, I hope that she does not feel that her life was blighted by not being a Bishopton girl guide.
I was making the point that much has changed. A number of members have dwelt on the fact that the facility is used by a range of community organisations. I was impressed to learn not just that 50 or so organisations use Lapwing Lodge but that more than 10,000 people use the facility annually.
That said, we must commend the Renfrew and Inverclyde scouts, as owners and managers of the facility, and be candid in recognising that the consequences of keeping the charges affordable over the years were that they were able to cover only the recurrent costs and not the capital costs that are once in a while necessary to maintain a facility to the necessary standards. There is recognition that it is time for a step change in the quality of the facilities. As has been mentioned, I and many other members have written to the minister responsible, Ross Finnie, to ask him whether he will look sympathetically on the case. The minister has confirmed in writing to many of us that he is considering the matter. I share the concerns that members have expressed that it is important that due process is observed in those matters.
Other members have recognised that this is an opportunity for us to reflect on the role of youth organisations, both uniformed and non-uniformed. There are considerable pressures on youth organisations, not necessarily because of the actions of Government but owing to societal trends that go far beyond Government yet nevertheless bring severe pressures to bear. It is unarguable that it is now much harder for people to commit to be a scout leader, a guide leader or any youth leader than it was a number of years ago when people worked more fixed hours and could be more certain about the commitment that they could give. I spent last Sunday morning at Paisley YMCA, at its annual conference. It is one of the many organisations that has made use of the facility in the past year.
I will end by reflecting on the symmetry of a day in Parliament that ends with a discussion of this matter and began, at 9.30 this morning, with a discussion of school meals, nutrition and the importance of physical activity for the health of the nation and the health of our young people in particular.
We should ask the minister and his officials that over the coming weeks, as they reflect on the options available to them, they consider the totality of the contribution that Lapwing Lodge makes to so many important objectives, whether that be introducing young people to the environment, providing an opportunity for physical activity, creating a space for friendship and fellowship, or providing an opportunity for training the new generation of youth leaders of tomorrow. The facility carries out those many roles, which spread across many Executive departments. As the due process of consideration goes on, I hope that we are beginning to develop structures that allow the totality of that contribution to be recognised.
I cannot join in the banter about guides and I have to confess that it is, on a quick calculation, 58 years since I was in the scouts. That is my background interest. It is good to have a debate on the issue, although I recognise the concerns that other members have expressed because we cannot be too specific.
I will make three points. First, we must make a serious effort to educate people in Scotland about how to apply for funds. The issue is not only about applying for the funds in question in this matter, but about applying for a range of funding. To get grants it is necessary for people to fill in 30 pages, which is difficult enough, but they also have to know the right phrases. If applicants press the right buttons and make the right noises they are much more likely to get the money. People need to be educated in the process.
I took the opportunity to have a very helpful first meeting with Mr Dharmendra Kanani, who is the new boss of the Big Lottery Fund in Scotland. The existence of that fund is very good news and I think that Mr Kanani is also good news—he seems to be an excellent man. At that meeting I took the opportunity, because of correspondence about Lapwing Lodge, to raise the issue because a predecessor fund had turned Lapwing down. Lapwing felt that it had been turned down unfairly, so it was interesting to see the notes from the lottery people, who felt that Lapwing had not really made the right case for funding.
We provide interpreters for minority ethnic groups who cannot speak English very well; in the same way, we must do much better in providing interpreters for perfectly good Scots of great vintage—with backgrounds of any nationality—who are trying to apply for grants but cannot understand how to do it. I am sure that the new lottery fund has people who are specifically trained to try to help applicants. The Executive should take up the issue of how to explain things to people.
My second point—out of three—relates to residential accommodation, of which we have lost a lot. For many councils—particularly in Strathclyde—the demise of the regional councils has meant the demise of many outdoor education facilities. Other organisations such as Scottish Centres—formerly known as the Scottish National Camps Association—are affected. The group has four or so premises in different parts of Scotland which, rather like Lapwing Lodge, need improvement and modernisation. That would enable the group to do even more good work than it does at the moment.
However, it is difficult for people to get funding from whatever source for residential accommodation. As other speakers have said, there is a great deal of good—in socialising and education of all sorts—in getting people away from home for a day or two, or a week, and allowing them to meet people from other areas. The Executive has to address the residential accommodation issue in order to ensure that it has adequate funding.
Thirdly, there must be a coherent policy for funding voluntary organisations in general. We still do not have enough core funding or enough funding for facilities—especially national facilities. We still fund far too many organisations only for particular projects, with the result that they lead a hand-to-mouth existence. We have to get together the Executive, the lottery, councils, and the trusts that support such organisations. We had a sectarian summit; I think we also need a voluntary organisation funding summit, so that we can try to get a more coherent policy on how to fund all the bodies that play such a huge part in our life.
There are lessons to be drawn from this debate. I hope that the minister will ponder them.
I first met Bill McCallum three years ago in Inchinnan church, when we were both visiting the Renfrewshire open day facilities. He told me about Lapwing Lodge. I visited it last Monday—deliberately when there was nobody there—because I wanted to get a feel for what it was like. It reminded me of a hospital that my mother had been in. She had tuberculosis. When I spoke to Bill yesterday he confirmed that the hospitals had been built to allow the air to blow through. In those days, people did not know what caused TB.
When I spoke to Bill McCallum three years ago, he told me about the difficulties that he was having with funding. We discussed which community groups used the facility—from the scouts to the girl guides to all the other groups that have been mentioned this evening. At the moment, I know of an orchestra that is visiting this country that is looking for accommodation near Paisley. The orchestra will be performing in Paisley town hall and is looking for somewhere cheap to practice to their heart's content. They have taken a look at Lapwing Lodge.
As members know, 40 per cent of usage of the lodge is by groups other than the scouts. The building can cope with four different groups pursuing their own activities at one time. For example, Renfrewshire Council, through its flexicare project, is sending young people and adults with learning difficulties to Lapwing Lodge at the same time as the scouts and the guides are there. If such diverse groups are there together, it makes me think how much they must learn from one another. It also makes me think about the lessons that a person with full faculties can learn from watching a young adult with learning difficulties cope with daily life.
It is right that Parliament spends much time discussing and reviewing support for kids who display what we term "antisocial behaviour". Our surgeries are full of people who complain that they suffer as a result of antisocial behaviour, under-age drinking, knife crime and drugs. It is right that we address those issues, but what about the kids who do not display such behaviour and who make up the vast majority?
As Donald Gorrie said, it seems that the relevant funding streams are extremely difficult to access. What criteria are used? Too often, voluntary organisations seem to be passed from one department to another because they do not fit the first department's criteria but might fit those of the second.
One of the problems that Lapwing Lodge allegedly faces is its ownership. The scouts are sometimes told that because they own the lodge, it does not fit the criteria. Even though the scouts own the lodge, it is clear that it is a community asset. From listening to the radio in the morning when I am getting ready for work, I have no evidence that the scouts are listed in the Financial Times Stock Exchange index; I have never heard that they are making massive profits from renting out properties such as Lapwing Lodge.
We support commercial ventures. We have a system that allows people who want to start a business to go along to Scottish Enterprise, which will provide support by telling them what they can do and where they can get money. Why is it so difficult to find an easy way to support facilities such as Lapwing Lodge? Donald Gorrie spoke about that problem. The Executive needs to produce clear guidelines on funding criteria.
Many groups that seek funding experience the same frustration, but I do not believe that a members' business debate is the right forum for discussing the challenging issues that an individual organisation faces. The debate should be much wider. I believe that we need a comprehensive review of all funding streams, including the lottery, so that the people who are involved in organisations that support young people, adults and people with disabilities find the process much easier. This is not the first time that I have dealt with that point in a speech.
Like other members, I recognise the value of centres such as Lapwing Lodge and believe that we should support its long-term sustainability. I know that constituents of mine in Renfrewshire and Port Glasgow have benefited from spending time there learning about one another and their communities and reflecting on their lives. I shall visit the lodge again when there are visitors there—I am sure that Bill McCallum will invite me. He knows that I support the scouts' application for funding although, as I have said, a members' business debate does not allow us to go into the issue in as much detail as is necessary. I note that the Deputy Presiding Officer supports the motion because he signed it.
The service that Lapwing Lodge provides is very worth while; long may that continue. I invite the minister to listen to some of the things that Donald Gorrie and I have said about the need for a comprehensive review of how voluntary organisations are funded and how they can get through the mire of funding that the Executive offers.
It is encouraging that members have acknowledged that there are limitations on what I can say in response to Bruce McFee's motion, largely because of the central place in that motion of reference to a funding application that has not yet been determined. Trish Godman is, of course, far better placed than I am to comment on what is an appropriate motion for a members' business debate.
I note that members have indicated their support for Lapwing Lodge in the context of the Renfrew and Inverclyde scout association's application to the local capital grants scheme of the Scottish rural partnership fund. I have received and replied to letters that have been written in support of that application by members who have spoken in the debate and by my colleague Hugh Henry, so I am obviously aware that an application has been made. However, I should inform members that a total of 48 applications to the scheme from 22 council areas throughout Scotland have been received for the 2005-06 round. It is a requirement that all applications receive support from their local authority. In that context, it would be invidious of me to comment on the Lapwing Lodge application or on any other application for funding at this stage. An announcement on the outcome of the round will be made as soon as that can be done.
I want to say something about the aims of the local capital grants scheme to which the motion refers. It is a competitive scheme that is aimed at funding projects where it is clear that communities will derive benefits through providing or improving a facility that would otherwise not be available locally. Schemes must be accessible to all ages and interest groups in the community. Projects in rural and urban areas are eligible for funding. That said, because of the location of the scheme in the Scottish rural partnership fund, the presumption is in favour of rural projects. In all other respects, however, projects are assessed on a fair and equal basis. The local capital grants scheme is one element of our Scottish rural partnership fund, which is a fund that we put in place to support development of rural communities.
A number of members asked questions about access to funding and the appropriateness of the mechanisms for obtaining access. The Executive carried out a consultation last year not just on the local capital grants scheme but on the whole Scottish rural partnership fund. The aim of the consultation was to identify whether the fund is delivering its objectives and whether it is doing so in a way that applicants can access. We acknowledge that there are areas in the fund as a whole that merit re-examination. We want to simplify its structure and provide better support to applicants. Ministers are collectively considering the results of the consultation and I expect to announce the results later this year.
Of course, we recognise the important role of voluntary organisations in Scotland. As members have said, significant sums of money go to the voluntary sector from rural development funds and from other parts of the Scottish Executive. We recognise the particular role that the voluntary sector plays in supporting youth projects. The sector has an important part to play in encouraging more active involvement of young people in their communities.
Groups such as the scouts and guides play a valuable role in helping young people to develop their personal and social potential through active citizenship and social engagement. That is why the Executive provides support, for example, to the Scout Association through support for its core costs in Scotland. Clearly that funding has benefits for all the association's activities across the board.
In looking at the future of the Scottish rural partnership fund and how it should be reformed, the Executive wants to see whether we are doing what we ought to be doing in enabling communities to address their local needs. Our review has made it clear that community-led rural development is valuable, which is also the case in urban areas. We want to ensure that the benefits are built on and sustained through continued improvements to the fund. I hope that that work will help to address some of the wider funding issues that members have mentioned in the debate.
Meeting closed at 17:27.